| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 2335.1 | I thought it was a neutral recording medium | SALSA::MOELLER | Man lebt wer sterben kann. (snicker) | Tue May 08 1990 17:26 | 6 |
| <<< Note 2335.0 by LEDDEV::ROSS "shiver me timbres...." >>>
> ...not simple pop stuff that sounds like TAPES.
Tell me, what do TAPES sound like ?
karl
|
| 2335.2 | sssssssssssssssssss.... | WEFXEM::COTE | Strom clods are forming... | Tue May 08 1990 17:29 | 7 |
| >...what do TAPES sound like?
A compressor demo?
:^)
Edd
|
| 2335.3 | | GLOWS::COCCOLI | is everybody happy? | Tue May 08 1990 17:37 | 7 |
|
Quiz em' about them sequencers.
RichC
|
| 2335.4 | you know...*TAPES* | LEDDEV::ROSS | shiver me timbres.... | Wed May 09 1990 09:56 | 22 |
|
Rich: got some questions I should ask?
Common' Karl/Edd....*EVERYONE* knows what TAPES sound like.
:} :}
I meant that many of the Duo's Ive heard use audio backing tapes
for the instrumental parts of the tunes and 'sing along'...I can
see this from a 'less equipment to cart around', but I think it
lacks something for LIVE PERFORMANCE.
Hey, its bad enuf you can just stand there and press START. What
kinda work is involved in that???
(just kidding just kidding...I know! hours sequencing each tune)
The guy in the band plays 'live' too. DX7II and that those racks.....
I keep wondering "what if SOMETHING breaks....what's backup?
TAPES?????? harhrhhrhrhrrarrr...
|
| 2335.5 | make it real? | KEYBDS::HASTINGS | | Wed May 09 1990 12:36 | 24 |
|
Ron, how can you be so *coy*! ;-}
I think that the LERDS/BIM should be convened there to carefully
analyze every technical detail, and performing nuance of this band. After
all this is a big part of what MIDI is all about. This could provide much
worthwhile discussion for this notesfile.
Regarding tapes... Ron I could bring up the "religious" argument that
we have been having off line on this but I won't. (At least not today.) Instead
I have a question. Given the vast possibilities of the music technology today,
and to come, how do we avoid having the music experience becoming overrun
by the technology to the point the composition and performance are products
of the technology, and not the artist?
How can a performer/composer keep himself in the music and avoid the
mechanical, prerecorded, canned, stale sounds that can easily happen when
the technology is relied on to heavily? I'm not just talking about "humanizing"
drum tracks, or avoiding quantization here. Anyone that has ever seen a good
band play live knows that the experience is far superior to merely listening to
a record of that band. What is is that can make a live performance so special?
How can it be kept in the performance when one uses sequencers/tapes or
whatever? How can we avoid becoming a techno-version of a disk jockey?
Mark
|
| 2335.6 | is it live, or is it MIDI ? | SALSA::MOELLER | Man lebt wer sterben kann. (snicker) | Wed May 09 1990 14:27 | 25 |
| <<< Note 2335.5 by KEYBDS::HASTINGS >>>
>What is is that can make a live performance so special?
>How can it be kept in the performance when one uses sequencers/tapes or
>whatever? How can we avoid becoming a techno-version of a disk jockey?
GOOD questions. As a solo musician, my issues are a bit different from
a MIDI band.. but not a lot. My MIDI studio setup is absolutely NOT
conducive to playing live. Regarding presequenced vs. tape backup
tracks, sorry, I see NO difference except that there's more opportunity
for the sequenced tracks to go awry.
When I think about playing out, first I know I'll be doing quite a bit
of solo (Kurzweil) piano pieces. I might use the KX88's two-channel
xmit capability to sneak in some background strings or something. Over
and above that, the complexity rises exponentially. Few of my
sequenced pieces have ONE part that plays thru the entire piece - that
part of course being the one that I play live with the sequence. Music
minus one, anyone ? It's not too cool sitting on your thumb waiting
for the place to play hot horn riff again - not very dynamic VIEWING.
And I thing VIEWING is the issue with MIDI/tape bands. The audience is
conditioned to watching the interplay and sweat among the performers,
which may be difficult to come by in a MIDI/tape band.
karl
|
| 2335.7 | | MIZZOU::SHERMAN | ECADSR::SHERMAN 235-8176, 223-3326 | Wed May 09 1990 15:39 | 6 |
| Audiences want to see band members jump around and sing. If they
wanted to hear good music, they'd listen to their stereos. People
jumping around and making noise is entertaining. Programming is not.
That's why I get such a kick out of going to staff meetings ... ;^
Steve
|
| 2335.8 | Lots of great musicians out there | CSC32::MOLLER | Hit by a truck, License # RDB31A | Wed May 09 1990 15:56 | 33 |
| Geez. This stuff has been happening for the last few years. I've
been doing it for at least 1 1/2 years with excellent results.
With dual sequencers, you don't have much of any deley between songs
and you can pick pretty much anything that you have sequenced,
in pretty much any order. If I get a failure of one sequencer, I
use the other (now, a few delays between groups of songs), If my
disk unit fails, then I can load from tape (while the other sequencer
is playing - yes cassettes are cheap insurance).
There are some excellent MIDI bands (1 or more people) out there.
You might find that just going out and listening to a few might
give you some insights as to how these become more humanized by
thier members. Each band has solved for thier needs in thier own
way & all sound different. As far as I'm concerned, I think it's
great not having to worry about more than one other person (besides
most of my sequences can be done as a single, and are set up so
that either of us can sing if need be - just in case of colds and
sore throats). I like my MIDI duo. There are at least 10 others
here in Colorado Springs (a fairly small town when compared to
Boston, New York, L.A. or Chicago) that are exceptional and are
constantly working. I've had only 1 weekend open since the middle
of October 1989, and usually work 2 to 4 nights a week. I also
play only songs that I happen to like. So where is the trade off?
If the band isn't having a good time, it can be sterile. I always
have a good time. I quantize what I want & I trade sequeneces, so I
end up playing with other musicians. All I care about it the sound
and the entertainment/performance value. With todays gear and a lot
of time, you can do just about anything that you want.
As I say, look around you. There are lots of people who can pull
this stuff off & make it sound great.
Jens_who_is_working_wed_thru_sat_this_week_with_his_duo.
|
| 2335.9 | Who's in charge | KOBAL::DICKSON | | Wed May 09 1990 17:33 | 0 |
| 2335.10 | | GLOWS::COCCOLI | is everybody happy? | Wed May 09 1990 18:46 | 12 |
|
RE .4
It's just that I had never heard the term " double buffered
sequencer" before and thought I might have missed out on a new device.
I've got a question you could ask them.
Do they get paid as much as a non-midi, four piece band?. 8^/][
RichC
|
| 2335.11 | Well, Live, but not exactly? | LEDDEV::ROSS | shiver me timbres.... | Mon May 14 1990 11:35 | 22 |
|
Pay? Good question.....no one ever talks about it, it seems...
"Double Buffered" is standard computer-eze term for "one memory
sending/rcving while another is 'loading'". From what I could
tell, thats what was going on.
NOW, after hearing them again I was a little more critical of the
sound. Some tunes sounding more like 'vocals singing with taped
background'.....even tho it wasnt.
ANYONE notice this in their own music? Is it MIXING only?
Something tells me its also related to SAMPLERS and orchestration,
actually...
??????
ron
|
| 2335.12 | | SALSA::MOELLER | | Mon May 14 1990 14:30 | 15 |
| > <<< Note 2335.11 by LEDDEV::ROSS "shiver me timbres...." >>>
> -< Well, Live, but not exactly? >-
> NOW, after hearing them again I was a little more critical of the
> sound. Some tunes sounding more like 'vocals singing with taped
> background'.....even tho it wasnt.
> ANYONE notice this in their own music? Is it MIXING only?
Perhaps you're not used to professional-sounding mixes from live bands.
Maybe 'live' to you equals 'sloppy'.
Or.. close your eyes.
karl
|
| 2335.13 | | MILKWY::JANZEN | Tom 228-5421 FXO/28 | Mon May 14 1990 15:19 | 8 |
| > <<< Note 2335.12 by SALSA::MOELLER >>>>
>
> Maybe 'live' to you equals 'sloppy'.
>
karl
I thought that's what "humanization" was all about ;-)
Tom
|
| 2335.14 | It's only good if it's fun | CSC32::MOLLER | Hit by a truck, License # RDB31A | Mon May 14 1990 19:42 | 24 |
| >> <<< Note 2335.13 by MILKWY::JANZEN "Tom 228-5421 FXO/28" >>>
>>
>> > <<< Note 2335.12 by SALSA::MOELLER >>>>
>> >
>> > Maybe 'live' to you equals 'sloppy'.
>> >
>> karl
>>
>> I thought that's what "humanization" was all about ;-)
>> Tom
I make plenty of mistakes for an entire band (can't get much more
humanized than that, now can you??), and so does my keyboard player.
We sound quite 'live' in spite of the technology (Last thursday my
keyboard player powered down his SHS-10, then back up, while it
was using my gear. It reselected a number of patches for me, as
well as setting my REX-50 for a cavern reverb with massive
distortion - It's really a guitar effect, however, I use it for
vocals. It reminds me of the days when other band members broke into
the wrong parts or into the wrong key, or even the wrong song).
By the way, my sequencer has never gotten drunk either.....
Jens
|
| 2335.15 | Samplers *have* there own sound, IMO. | LEDDEV::ROSS | shiver me timbres.... | Tue May 15 1990 10:51 | 11 |
|
Karl...come on. I cant tell if you're sittin on a cactus
or not... ;) such an attitude. You know where Im at musically.
Maybe we're talkin some ineffable thing here (means words dont work
to describe it)...
or, maybe Im just not describing it well. Nevermind.
ron
|
| 2335.16 | ;^) | MIZZOU::SHERMAN | ECADSR::SHERMAN 235-8176, 223-3326 | Tue May 15 1990 11:26 | 11 |
| Which reminds me ... seems to me that synths nowadays are getting cold
and hard. Not like older, pre-wall bug synths. These were warm and
fuzzy. Warm because of the power transformer inside. Fuzzy because of
the buzz of the transformer and/or the slight 60 Hz discharge you
would get when you ran your hand along the (supposedly) grounded metal
case. This and MIDI sequencing make today's music cold and calculated.
Not like the good ol' days when making a goof was "artistic" instead of
adding "humanism". Screwing up your patches was "far out" and "groovy"
instead of "ineffable". Sigh ...
Steve
|
| 2335.17 | starting to sound like Guitar notes | SWAV1::STEWART | on the horns of an enema | Tue May 15 1990 11:39 | 12 |
| > Which reminds me ... seems to me that synths nowadays are getting cold
> and hard. Not like older, pre-wall bug synths. These were warm and
> fuzzy. Warm because of the power transformer inside. Fuzzy because of
> the buzz of the transformer and/or the slight 60 Hz discharge you
> would get when you ran your hand along the (supposedly) grounded metal
> case. This and MIDI sequencing make today's music cold and calculated.
> Not like the good ol' days when making a goof was "artistic" instead of
> adding "humanism". Screwing up your patches was "far out" and "groovy"
> instead of "ineffable". Sigh ...
Don't forget tubed amps!
|
| 2335.18 | Using Dual Sequencers - Loading while Playing | CSC32::MOLLER | Hit by a truck, License # RDB31A | Fri May 18 1990 14:15 | 137 |
| If you are curious as to how I set up my 2 sequencers (MMT-8's)
to allow me to be loading one while playing the other, this
is what I did and why.
The logic:
+-----------------+
| MIDI Disk Drive |
+-------+---------+
| MIDI
| Out
o
+--------------o/ o----+
| MIDI Sw1 | MIDI
V In V In
+------+--------+ +------+--------+ +------------+
| Sequencer # 1 | | Sequencer # 2 | | Start/Stop |
| +<==+ | +<====+ | Footswitch |
+------+--------+ | +------+--------+ | +------+-----+
| MIDI | | MIDI | |
(LED1) | Out | (LED2) | Out | |
| | | Sw1 | |
| +==========|========o /o=+ |
| | o |
| Sw1 | | |
+---------------o /o---+ +==============+
o
| MIDI To To
V In LED1 LED2
+--------+---------+ | Sw1 |
| MIDI SGU's | +-o /o-+
+------------------+ o
|
LED
Power
In the diagram shown, Sequencer # 1 is ready to accept a MIDI
SYSEX dump, while Sequencer # 2 is ready to drive the MIDI SGU's
(Sound Generation Units).
You'll notice that there is only 1 switch shown. This is because you
need to all 4 switches in a synchronized fashion, otherwise you won't
be sure what state that you are in. Just to add to the confusion,
the switches that are swapping the MIDI signals need to be DPDT
(double pole/double throw) switches, so you really need the equivalent
of 6 switches. The LED (Light Emitting Diode) is needed to tell you
which sequencer is being loaded, and which is being played.
The way that I implemented this was by purchasing a 4PDT 12 volt relay
(Radio Shack sells them) and use this to switch the MIDI signals.
The one that I used has some silver in the contacts, and is sealed
(we really don't want poor connections, as the current flow is fairly
low). Then I used a good quality DPDT mini-toggle switch (also from RS)
for the footswitch and LED indicator. The circuit that drives the
LEDs also drives the Relay. I used dual colored LEDs (RED or GREEN
depending how you connected them) and installed one under the front
of each sequencer. When the LED is GREEN, then that's the PLAYBACK
sequencer, When it's RED, that's the LOADING sequencer. I drive
the whole thing from a 12 volt WALL bug/transformer. I added a DIODE
and 2000uf Cap to the circuit that drives the Relay, so that I had
roughly 1 second of reserve power (to keep the relay latched) in case
of a momentary power fluctuation (I get those occasionally while
playing at clubs).
1.5k
Relay Keeper circuit: +------------/\/\/--> LED1
(and LED driver) |
Using Toggle switch | Sw1 1.5k
+--o /o--+--/\/\/--> LED2
o |
1N4001 | |
+ o------->|----+------------+ |
| + +--> One side of
From Wall Bug === 2000uf Relay Coil
|
- o-------------+-------> Other side of Relay Coil
All in all, my parts list is:
Quantity Description Approx Price (US Dollars)
-------- -------------------- -------------------------
1 4PDT - 12 V relay $5.50
1 DPDT - Mini Toggle $3.50
Switch
6 Male 5 connector $1.00 each - $6.00
DIN plus (MIDI
connectors)
2 Dual Color LEDs $1.00 - package of 2
(RED/GREEN)
1 1N4001 Diode $1.00 - package of 4
1 2000uf 35volt $2.00
Capacitor
2 1/4 inch phone $2.50 - package of 2
plugs (metal covers)
<for footswitch>
1 1/4 phone jack $1.50 - package of 2
<for footswitch>
1 12 volt wall bug $6.00
1 20 foot spool of $3.00
2 conductor shielded
wire <for MIDI>
1 20 foot spool of $2.50
zip cord (2 conductor)
1 Wall bug jacks $1.00 - package of 2
2 1.5 k 1/2 watt $.50 - package of 2
resistors (for LEDs)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Total Cost: Approx $ 36.00
The concept should work with any sequencers that are stand alone
boxes. They both have to be the same model (otherwise the SYSEX
messages won't match).
We could have used a MIDI Merger for the output of the sequencers,
however, that adds about $80.00 to $100.00 more to the cost. This
solution is fairly cheap & reliable. All of the parts are mounted
in my rack, and the single toggle switch is up near the sequencers
(actually, between them).
And as a last comment, this works quite well for me. If anyone
wants more info, feel free to contact me directly.
Jens
|
| 2335.19 | Must think of a name (any ideas?) | BAHTAT::KENT | peekay | Mon May 21 1990 04:16 | 11 |
|
Firsr live (paid) Gig in 12 years is next Friday night.
Me on Strat
Roland on the W30
And my nephew on Sax
Will report back.
Paul.
|
| 2335.20 | speaking of sax players... | HUNEY::MACHIN | | Mon May 21 1990 05:32 | 11 |
|
Saw Gong last friday. The sax player (the one and only Bloomdido
Glad de Brass) used a Yamaha WX connected to -- I think -- a TX16
or similar. He did a solo spot where he set up sequences and played
over the top of them, switching patches as appropriate. The sequencer
was -- wait for it -- an MMT-8!
Excellent concert, by the way. Except for the electronic drumkit,
whose sounds bcame a little monotonous toward the end of the evening.
Richard.
|
| 2335.21 | WHATTTTT | GLOWS::COCCOLI | it's moot | Mon May 21 1990 20:30 | 17 |
|
RE .20
Got a problem with the MMT8, bud?. 8^]
I load mine up at the house, get to a gig, plug it in, and get
45 minutes of fairly complicated music out of it without a hitch.
Why do people have to goof on other people's equipment just because
it isn't in the same price range as the latest Stealth bomber?.
IT SERVES.
RichC
|
| 2335.22 | er..no problem here | HUNEY::MACHIN | | Tue May 22 1990 05:49 | 14 |
| re .21
Not sure where I 'goofed' your sequencer. I'm an owner and staunch
defender of the things in this conference, in fact.
All I intended to say was that said B. Bad de Grass used one in an
innovative way, creating short sequences 'live' and playing over the
top of them. He had a briefcase open on a table, with teh sgu poking
out and the sequencer stuck on top -- and it went without a hitch.
Take that, sir.
Richard.
|
| 2335.23 | why not just play direct from hard disk? | LEDDEV::ROSS | shiver me timbres.... | Tue May 22 1990 16:39 | 25 |
|
Well, bottom line is, you dont get to load a sequencer
with a nights worth of (club) material. You dont get to load
a set worth of most common tunes that include the drum trax.
And assuming you want the 'ability' to deviate from a certain
song order, you CANT load multiple (2 or 3 max anyway?) songs
in one fell swoop...
So, why not accept that you have to, and want to, load each
song separately.
When you finally get there, then you go "gee, 10 seconds of sysex
to get the next song in..." which, to some folks is unacceptable
silence, cause you lose the folks on the dance floor...
So then you need a solution to this 10 seconds. Comedy? Card tricks?
One sequencer loading while another plays?
Your choice. I made mine.
Next time: What to load from? Tapes? Floppy?
ron
|
| 2335.24 | | GLOWS::COCCOLI | it's moot | Tue May 22 1990 18:51 | 18 |
|
RE. .22
My apologies. I took the "wait for it....an MMT8" as a derogatory
remark. Perhaps a self-inflicted full frontal lobotomy is in order
for myself.
RE .23
Well, my bottom line is I can load and have *instant* access to
10 songs, in any order, with drum tracks. I do leave out pb and
aftertouch, which eat memory. These are added live anyway.
We do originals and play showcases. Forty five minutes *is* a gig.
RichC
|
| 2335.25 | your mileage can vary in this game | LEDDEV::ROSS | shiver me timbres.... | Wed May 23 1990 11:30 | 21 |
|
Hey, whatever works. I bet some folks leave out velocity to
get lotsa tunes in the sequencer!
I suppose its a matter of song complexity, orchestration,
and what parts you play live.
What's the 'note' capacity of the MMT8? Sounds like a good machine
in the coupla hundred bucks range.
QX5 holds 15,000 'notes'(well, ya gotta use SOMETHING as a metric)
(20,000 without velocity. But why would they even mention THAT?)
Seems that most tunes we do use about 1/2 of the memory...some less.
Aftertouch, CCn's used on live parts only (some exceptions). Its
that darn drummer that hogs mosta the machine...
How many could I fit into an MMT8?
ron
|
| 2335.26 | that don't sound right | NORGE::CHAD | Ich glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tte | Wed May 23 1990 11:47 | 4 |
| I thought velocity was part of a midi note event????? Velocity shouldn't
change how many events a sequencer can store, or?????
Chad
|
| 2335.27 | internal representation different | LEDDEV::ROSS | shiver me timbres.... | Wed May 23 1990 12:20 | 13 |
|
The machine can filter lotsa things on RECORD, like velocity.
I suppose it 'knows' that track contains no velocity
info and on playback inserts something, probably 127?
Dont know! I Never use THAT filter....gad.
Tho I suppose for a monster drummer imitation (Animal!)
it might be just right.
rr
|
| 2335.28 | Dark Age Sequencer Lore | AQUA::ROST | I'll do anything for money | Wed May 23 1990 13:22 | 17 |
| Some sequencers do strange things when storing data. Ron is correct,
some allow you to filter velocity, as well as the usual
CC/sysex/aftertouch filtering. My old MSQ-100 had such a feature, and
since I had no velocity controller at the time, I kept the velocity
filter on. I think it sent out 63 on playback as a default velocity,
like most non-velocity controllers do.
I used a Casio sequencer where step storage capacity was twice as large
as real-time storage capacity. My guess is that since you enter a note
(time) value when step sequencing, the box could store the note-on and
note-off times together somehow; in real-time entry it had to keep
checking to see when you let go of the key, so had to store them as
separate data items. In any event, the incompatible storage meant you
couldn't step edit real-time emtered tracks or do real-time overdubs on
step-entered tracks.
Waitaminnit, I bought that box from Ron...8^) 8^) 8^)
|
| 2335.29 | 10000 notes plus associated garbage, I thought | HUNEY::MACHIN | | Wed May 23 1990 13:23 | 4 |
|
I believe the MMT8 is 10000 events.
Richard.
|
| 2335.30 | | MIZZOU::SHERMAN | ECADSR::SHERMAN 235-8176, 223-3326 | Wed May 23 1990 13:54 | 5 |
| As I recall, if you don't have velocity info, the default is 64. So,
even with "no" velocity, you may be seeing a default value come up.
The default value doesn't require extra storage.
Steve
|
| 2335.31 | Parallel Processing | DREGS::BLICKSTEIN | This is your brain on Unix | Wed May 23 1990 14:20 | 14 |
| I often get around the loading problem by "parallel processing".
For example, if I was doing a gig like Ron where there is basically
a keyboard player and a singer, I'd pick out a few songs that either
don't need sequencing, or have something like a piano introduction
without sequencing and just load while I'm playing.
The thing that always slows me down isn't loading, it's finding the
chart for the song we're about to do. I have an awful memory. And
while I can usually find the chords by "ear", without the chart,
I would have no way of knowing where the bridge came, or stuff
like that.
db
|
| 2335.32 | | WEFXEM::COTE | What if someone sees us? Awwwwkk! | Wed May 23 1990 14:29 | 8 |
| Even in my last band, where no sequencing was involved, just the
patch changes could take up more time than we were comfortable with.
The 6 or 8 seconds for the Mirage to load is an eternity...
I ended up just planning ahead, setting up SGU's as soon as possible
and keeping that channel down on my sub-mix until it was needed....
Edd
|
| 2335.33 | Solution: use the sequencer | DREGS::BLICKSTEIN | This is your brain on Unix | Wed May 23 1990 16:32 | 14 |
| re: .32
Edd,
I use the sequencer even on tunes that aren't sequenced to solve
the patch change problem.
What you do is you create a "sequence" with nothing other than the
patch changes. On my SQ-80, I just hit the button that gives me
the menu of songs; then I hit the button underneath the song I'm
going to play, and the SQ-80 does ALL my configuration-type stuff
for me.
db
|
| 2335.34 | Good Stuff | CSC32::MOLLER | Hit by a truck, License # RDB31A | Wed May 23 1990 18:15 | 18 |
| The MMT-8 holds 25000 events. I find that depending on how I
structure a song, I can always get at least 3 songs on in any
particular load. Since I have 2 MMT-8s & some ability to swap
back & forth so I can Load while I'm playing, I have little
in the way of delays. It usually takes longer to find the desired
patch on the ESQ-1 for the keyboard player to play than to bring
up the next song.
I have a lot of velocity specific information (drums and cymbols
really need this to keep from sounding sterile). I load all parts
that are not played by other members of my Duo. I also configure
a REX-50 for vocal processing.
Other than running out of MIDI channels (16 isn't enough when you
start looking at all of the possiblities - like Volume Mixes for
the PA, Effects Processors, Lighting, etc.), the set up is great.
Jens
|
| 2335.35 | Only the Lonely... | BAHTAT::KENT | peekay | Thu May 24 1990 04:05 | 15 |
|
W30 Takes about 15-20 seconds to load a song, and the songs have the
patch changes etc. embedded. This is going to be a laid back gig anyway
(corner of a Restaurant, changing customers, clanking crockery etcc..)
Is anybody going to notice the 20 seconds? I'll be downing some
Boddingtons Bitter during the song changes anyway, It's the only way I
can keep the Knopfler impersonation going. I still think it would sound
better in stereo, but here goes.....
I wonder If I was as nervous as this the first time.
Did I have nerves when I was 13 ?
Will I ever get used to this Decstation keyboard ?
Paul.
|
| 2335.36 | That's easily solvable | DREGS::BLICKSTEIN | This is your brain on Unix | Thu May 24 1990 10:37 | 6 |
| > It usually takes longer to find the desired patch on the ESQ-1 for the
> keyboard player to play than to bring up the next song.
Why don't you have the sequencer do that for him?
db
|
| 2335.37 | Can you say 'LOCK UP ALL THE MIDI SGU's?' | CSC32::MOLLER | Hit by a truck, License # RDB31A | Thu May 24 1990 16:13 | 24 |
| >> <<< Note 2335.36 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "This is your brain on Unix" >>>
>> -< That's easily solvable >-
>>
>> > It usually takes longer to find the desired patch on the ESQ-1 for the
>> > keyboard player to play than to bring up the next song.
>>
>> Why don't you have the sequencer do that for him?
>>
>> db
That all depends on how many controllers you allow. I Use 4 seperate
control sources (MMT-8's, TR-505, ESQ-1 and SHS-10) using an MX-8
and 2 additional merge boxes. I run into all sorts of obsure problems
when I send and recieve to/form the same device. I use one of the
merge boxes on the ESQ-1 to provide a 'MERGED THRU' function. So
It would undoubtably screw up things very quickly. MIDI can get very
complex to manage when you start trying to share equipment amongst
controllers. At the moment, my configuration does not allow any
controller to modify another controller. In this way, I don't have
to worry about multiple MIDI clocks (which would affect the tempo)
or surprize me with bogus patch changes. This 'network' has taken
me nearly a year to get right & it's pretty reliable at the moment.
Jens
|
| 2335.38 | grumble..quotron..mumble | GLOWS::COCCOLI | it's moot | Thu May 24 1990 20:26 | 22 |
|
I've been in a seminar last couple of days.
Jens..You only get about three songs out of the MMT8?. You must
be using more pitchbend than Jan Hamer!. Or doubling everything.
I gave up sequencing anything played on my midiguitar due to the
enormous quantity of pitchbend events per string-bend (not to be
believed). A 1 minute solo would eat 1/3rd of the MMT8's memory!.
Why sequence a solo anyway?.
At this time I don't have one of those neat little devices that
can thin the stream. The effect might not be desirable.
When playing as just a keyboard player with other "live" (some
more than others) musicians, I use the sequencer only for patch
changes. Probably easier to set up than one of those "navi-system-izer"
thingies.
RichC
|
| 2335.39 | Looking for grouping and content | CSC32::MOLLER | Hit by a truck, License # RDB31A | Thu May 24 1990 21:08 | 31 |
| >> <<< Note 2335.38 by GLOWS::COCCOLI "it's moot" >>>
>> Jens..You only get about three songs out of the MMT8?.
Actually, I often get 6 songs on the MMT-8, but as a force of
habit, I now try only for 3 or 4 songs that I'm apt (but not
neccesarrily going) to play together. In other words, I've
tried to group things. Now with 2 sequencers, this is working
even better, because I have access to 6 to 8 songs at any moment,
and often play many of them as needed. Sometimes you need to throw
in a specific request, but you want to play the other songs that
you have loaded, so I use the alternate sequencer to load the
request & not have to keep re-loading the same sequences over &
over again. In general, its just more flexable that way & I seem
to spend less time loading SYSEX from the disks. I often need
bulk SYSEX capabilities to re-load other devices, so I really
need the facility that the seperate disk provides.
The MC-500 allows flexibility along these lines also, but I really
like the option of a backup sequencer in case of failure. Besides,
you can pick up an MMT-8 used for around $200.00, so it's reasonably
cheaper than a lot of other alternatives. Besides the cost, I really
want to start working out sequences on a PC & moving them to a
delivery system. By this summer, I should be doing that & then the
features of the HW sequencer become less significant. I'd rather spend
the money on a PC based solution & keep the 'live' delivery equipment
as simple as possible. As long as you have things working for you,
then keep working with them. I'm always interested to see what my
competition is using; there are a lot of creative musicians out
there. This stuff works for me.
Jens
|
| 2335.40 | Performance Nightmare | AQUA::ROST | I'll do anything for money | Fri May 25 1990 15:00 | 106 |
| Interesting example of tapes vs. sequences quandary from the USENET:
From: [email protected] (Christopher D Scudds IE87)
Subject: Performance Nightmares ( long )
Date: 24 May 90 14:08:36 GMT
Yo r.m.s readers . Just thought I'd offload one of the most harrowing
experiences of my musical career on y'all ( I'm fairly cotton-pickin' up on this
american lingo too! )
Basically , a show that I was playing for decided that it would be a good idea
if , in order to cut costs of paying for 6 - 8 pro musicians playing for
four nights in the band , they'd pay me to do tapes of their parts , and
also have me and a drummer play along to them .
Now , I , as all of you will too , was not over keen on this idea , but
eventually I buckled under financial temptation ( every man has his price ) ,
and assurances that the sound people were pro's .
I met up with the sound guys , and sure enough , they were going to remaster
my stuff prepared on the four track to a B77 ( Revox , reel to reel ) so that
reliability would be high . We agreed , since the band PA was mono , that
we'd use one track for a click to the bands 'phones , and the other for the
music , to be fed through the PA . All seemed hunky dory - I went to work .
Tapes were completed in about 80 hours , and remastered to the B77 . We
soundchecked two nights before the show opened - they sounded GREAT - the
illusion of a big band ( strings / brass / woodwind / percussion ) was
definitely there . Clicks worked perfectly with the drummer , mix and
acoustics were all A1 . Good stuff !
First three nights went well , very well in fact , big crowds , clapping
along to the closing numbers , everything . Youve guessed it though - the
fourth night...
The fourth night , the soundman was 'unavailable' , so he had a standin , who'd
apparently been at all three performances so knew his stuff , take his place .
Fine I thought .
Curtains went down , I started the 'atmospheric' stuff , lots of detuned bells ,
growls , strings-tuning-up type noises . The audience ( a full house ) were
hushed - everything was poised for the big opening - I waited on the 4 clicks
in the cans .
And waited .
And waited .
Oh SH*T ! OH bl**dy SH*T !
You know , I had to PLAY that entire first half on my unprepared K1 / D50 ,
bass , sound effects ( essential for cues ) strings , brass everything !
NIGHTMARE !
At half time , I ran , by this time the bow tie had been cast aside , sweating
like god-knows-what to the desk at the back of the hall . He was there , the
soundman was there - and he was lucky that a couple of lighting chaps
were around too - cos I had to be restrained from disfiguring this moron.
What was the problem ? Why no tapes ? He said he'd started them , and heard
music - assumed everything was OK . THAT WAS ME PLAYING YOU DI**HEAD . Oh ,
was it , sounded fine to me he replies .
I checked out the tape deck , and , well blow me down , no leads coming out
of it - this pr*ck hadnt tested it or anything . I pugged it all into
the desk , checked it out quietly over the PA ( the audience were still
in - bit of a giveaway if they hear tape winding noises ) , and instructed him
on what to do . He nodded , he knew .
Second half . Same ( ish ) opening , a big build up , waiting for the
clicks . This time I got them , but so unbelievably quiet that when I pulled
the cans off , there was 4Kw of CLICK TRACK coming through the PA .
CLICK click click click CLICK click click click .
AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!
Soon somebody was intelligent enough to turn it down - but obviously they'd
been mucking about with the channels after I left , and had screwed it up .
So it was back to the grindstone , playing everything from memory , thinking
four songs ahead trying to WRITE performance patches in between cues ( cues
also from memory ) . Another nightmare .
Needless to say , I couldnt have done too bad a job , because all the feedback
after the show had finished was positive - good music they said - if only
you'd heard the real thing I said .
Why didn't I sequence it , you ask - well basically I had to borrow CuBase to
write it on , cos it was WELL complicated , but couldnt have it for the show .
I'm going to sequence the whole thing next time though - drums , FX ,
the lot , no matter what package I have to use - they can buy me one actually!
So the moral is - NEVER USE BACKING TAPES , NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE
( well , unless its just irresistable... )
Yours Incelery -----------------------------
| "I'd rather Jack , |
Chris . | than Famous Grouse" |
-----------------------------
|
| 2335.41 | take it to the limit | TOOK::SUDAMA | Living is easy with eyes closed... | Fri May 25 1990 16:06 | 21 |
| <<< Note 2335.39 by CSC32::MOLLER "Hit by a truck, License # RDB31A" >>>
-< Looking for grouping and content >-
>> <<< Note 2335.38 by GLOWS::COCCOLI "it's moot" >>>
>> Jens..You only get about three songs out of the MMT8?.
I don't see what's so surprising about this. Before I upgraded to an
MC-500 I often wasn't able to get even *one* song into the MMT-8. If
you have a complex sequence with lots of parts and voices, and can't
take full advantage of the parts-building capabilities of the MMT-8
because the structure of the song doesn't allow it, you can run out of
memory quite often. But then, I'm talking about sequences with
something like 12 channels plus drums, and maybe up to 30-40 voices
active at any time. For simple bass, drums and piano type stuff the
MMT-8 does great.
I'm not knocking the MMT-8, but if I was looking for a sequencer myself
I'd want to know what limitations the memory size was going to place on
what I could do with it.
- Ram
|
| 2335.42 | Bela Fleck and MIDI banjo | KOBAL::DICKSON | | Tue May 29 1990 11:41 | 23 |
| I hope some of you watched the "Lonesome Pine Special" this last
weekend. Bela Fleck was on playing banjo with a Mac (running
Performer) and an Akai sampler.
He had sampled various banjo noises made by clicking or hitting the
instrument in various places, and also sampled the lowest string. Then
he arranged a piece where he played the banjo live while the Akai
provided the back-up. The sampled banjo note, transposed down four
octaves, provided the bass, and the various other noises provided a
rhythm part. Pretty effective.
Funny, although not remarkable, was him playing "Dueling Banjos"
against the Mac. The interesting part was when the Mac was playing
first and he was supposed to imitate it - he had the Mac doing licks
that are easy on a Mac but not usually done by real musicians. These
especially involved transpositions in odd places. There was a part
toward the end where the Mac had a solo, during which Fleck sat on a
chair and read a newspaper.
In an interview segment he said he had a midied banjo and was working
on using his banjo to drive synthesizers for other sounds. Not working
real well yet (probably the usual tracking problems and false notes)
but he said that was the direction he wanted to go.
|
| 2335.43 | Gigup ! | BAHTAT::KENT | peekay | Wed May 30 1990 11:42 | 13 |
|
Well we did the gig, had no problems with the technology, we've been
booked for regular Fridays from now on. I'me an earning musician again!
Some people even layed down their knifes and forks and apllauded.
Perhaps I could start justifying the cost of the gear now.
No pehaps not.
Paul.
|
| 2335.44 | press return for next.... | LEDDEV::ROSS | shiver me timbres.... | Fri Jun 01 1990 16:07 | 16 |
|
Seems like this band SIZZLE is booked there wednesday
and thursday nights thru the summer...
Maybe they'll play closer out here sometime soon....
The guy *is* using 2 sequencers and a computer with a
hard disk...he's got software that allows loading of
one tune into one sequencer while they play the 'current'
tune from the other sequencer....
not a bad solution. I'm learning alot from this band at
this gig........
ron
|
| 2335.45 | here is a guess | NORGE::CHAD | Ich glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tte | Fri Jun 01 1990 16:15 | 6 |
| If you have a software sequencer, you can always set up a ram disk on your
computer as well as use a hd. Load the RAM disk with the set of songs you are
going to play. I bet it doesn't take more than a second to get a tune from a
RAM disk.
Chad
|
| 2335.46 | fess up | SALSA::MOELLER | | Fri Jun 01 1990 16:49 | 10 |
| <<< Note 2335.44 by LEDDEV::ROSS "shiver me timbres...." >>>
> Seems like this band SIZZLE is booked there wednesday
> and thursday nights thru the summer...
> not a bad solution. I'm learning alot from this band at
> this gig........
All right, ron - enough coyness.. YOU'RE in SIZZLE, right ? YOU'RE the
guy with "2 sequencers", right ?
karl
|
| 2335.47 | who knows? | LEDDEV::ROSS | shiver me timbres.... | Wed Jun 06 1990 15:04 | 19 |
|
Gee, Karl, that sounds like you're insinuating that I
have other motives than just sharing information with my
fellow midiots around live performance problems and solutions.
Come on, I'd also share info on the other duo's I've heard
in the past months while doing competative analysis....if
only I knew their current status as well as this groups'.
You're still sore about the 'tapes' comment....
admit it.
(of course Im smiling...relax)
rr
|
| 2335.48 | | SALSA::MOELLER | TUO:112�F, but it's a DRY heat | Wed Jun 06 1990 17:28 | 8 |
| <<< Note 2335.47 by LEDDEV::ROSS "shiver me timbres...." >>>
> You're still sore about the 'tapes' comment... admit it.
What 'tapes' comment ?
I'm not sore.. I'm #)*&ing HOT !
karl, living for nighttime swimming..
|
| 2335.49 | midi live works.. | GLOWS::COCCOLI | where's Pokey? | Tue Aug 07 1990 23:28 | 16 |
|
Last Sunday my midi duo actually got a full 30 minutes airplay
on a local college station (WSIA), along with 4 other bands from
the Staten Island Rock Coalition!.
The benefit concert for Snug Harbor Cultural Center was, unbeknownst(?)
to me, taped by some DJ from WSIA. Right after the set we were asked
to sign a waiver so the music could be broadcast.
This was our first actual gig with the SIRC, and the other members
had a certain amount of caution as how a duo w/midi would come across
to the audience in a mixed situation with other, full membered bands.
At the end of our show, the praise from the other bands, not
to mention the four new gigs that were booked in the following half
hour,seemed well worth the seemingly endless hours spent hunched
over the sequencers(2 mmt8's).
|
| 2335.50 | How to provide "time" when using a sequencer w. a full band | DREGS::BLICKSTEIN | I'll have 2 all-u-can-eat platters | Wed Feb 20 1991 11:05 | 61 |
| Maybe I've mentioned this before but I'm still sorta undecided about
this stuff.
First let me start by saying this question is in the context of playing
with a FULL band (drums, bass, guitar, keys, etc.) but using a
sequencer to fill things in things like strings, horns, extra
percussion and those sorta T-40 things that have to be done with
a sequencer.
The problem I am trying to address does not occur with a typical
"MIDI band".
The question is, "How does the band get time". That is, how do you
sync up with the sequencer?
It's especially hard if the sequencer is NOT playing drums, or if
it only comes in at, like, the 2nd verse.
The conventional method is to provide some sort of click to the
drummer thru headphones.
I've encountered problems trying to do this
o I have to sequence the click. This takes up a track in my
sequencer and I only have 8 (going to 24 soon but...)
o You have to somehow isolate the click from the rest of the
mix (separate outs for example) and somehow get from that
line output to a headphone.
o You have to figure out what sorta of audio the drummer can hear
above the band (beeps? Rim shots? Side-sticks? etc.)
o There are points in songs where the entire band has to get time
even though there are no drums: Intros, but also, as an example,
it's typical for the drums to come in on the 2nd verse and so
where/how do you get your time throughout the first verse.
One thing I've found helpful here is to ALWAYS to the click intro
the same: For a 4/4 song (which, sigh, covers most of what we do)
we ALWAYS count in with:
1 2 3 4 1 2 - -
That is its a two bar count-in with the last two beats silent.
Doing it the same way every time avoids having the situations wher
one member of the band comes after the first four.
(This weekend I worked with a drummer who gives 8th notes
countins - took some getting used to, and obviously the
first time he did that I thought maybe the band had decided
to do a different song than what I thought we were doing ;-) )
Anyway, I'd be interested to know if anyone has been in this kind of
situation and if so, what you've done (what worked? What didn't work?)
If you haven't been in this situation but have some ideas which you
think might work, let's here them too.
db
|
| 2335.51 | go optical? | LNGBCH::STEWART | Sounds dangerous: count me in! | Wed Feb 20 1991 11:20 | 14 |
|
I've thought about this, too, but don't have any urgent need yet.
How about some sort of visual indicator? My setup has a
separate metronome output (line-level) that could be used to
trigger a relay or ...
I think it would take a longer count-in to establish sync until you
got used to it.
|
| 2335.52 | If you have a spare drum machine..... | NWACES::PHILLIPS | | Wed Feb 20 1991 11:53 | 18 |
| While I have not performed live with MIDI, I would like too with the
Gospel choir I work with and have also thought about this problem.
I saw a band at the Bounty Lounge tackle this problem in the following
way. They had a drum machine slaved to the sequencer. The drummer
had headphones that were connected to the drum machine. This way
the drummer could use whaterever he wanted to provide the timing
plus no extra sequencer track or audio routing was necessary. He
gave the rest of band a two bar count in by tapping on his sticks,
one time by nodding his head (ballad) and like a orchestra conductor
he waved his hands in time during a piece where there was a sequencer
break in the middle.
In my situation the person conducting the choir will have to wear the
headphones and also the drummer. I find it difficult to keep a large
group in time with sequenced music other than drums.
Errol
|
| 2335.53 | slaving the sequencer to the band | RICKS::NORCROSS | Mitch Norcross, SEG/AFL/Systems | Wed Feb 20 1991 12:28 | 23 |
| Re: syncing band and sequencer...
There are devices which translate "beats" to MIDI clock info. The input
"beats" can be audio events or MIDI note events. The MIDI clock info can
drive your sequencer.
I don't have one of these, so I can't say exactly how it might be used to
solve your problem. I read about the Aphex Studio Clock in an EM First
Takes review. I would certainly like to try one of these myself, not for
performing, but for recording (same thing?).
The Aphex device sounded like it could follow a range of audio input,
including mixes - as long as there was a sufficient "beat" (transient)
that could be identified in the mix. I'll believe it when I hear it.
As you can imagine, the advantage is that the sequencer can follow your
human beat instead of you following the sequencer's beat.
As you can imagine, the disadvantage is that it probably costs around
$700.
/Mitch
|
| 2335.54 | a few ideas | TOOK::SUDAMA | Living is easy with eyes closed... | Wed Feb 20 1991 12:40 | 82 |
| > The question is, "How does the band get time". That is, how do you
> sync up with the sequencer?
I don't have this problem myself, but I've talked to people who do, and
I've given it a little thought. Like you said, the common method of
synchronization is to provide a click track to the drummer through
headpohones, and let them define the rhythm for the rest of the group.
Drummers I've talked to who've done this a lot hated it. They said a
lot of their concentration went into keeping in synch with the click
track and they couldn't really get into their playing.
> o I have to sequence the click. This takes up a track in my
> sequencer and I only have 8 (going to 24 soon but...)
I don't understand that. Can't you merge MIDI channels into one track
on your sequencer? The way I would do this would be to dedicate one of
the 16 MIDI channels to the click track. If I was limited for tracks
I'd merge it in with some other track.
> o You have to somehow isolate the click from the rest of the
> mix (separate outs for example) and somehow get from that
> line output to a headphone.
My sequencer (MC-500) has two MIDI outputs, and any track can be
directed to either output. You could achieve the same thing with a
MIDI channel splitter. Then use the click track to drive a drum machine
(or some cheap synth like and FB01).
Another approach would be to use a synth like the D-110 that has
multiple audio outputs, to which parts can be assigned.
Finally, the MC-500 has a built-in audio synch pulse which also has an
external output.
These are some of the options available with my equipment. I don't know
enough about your setup to advise on specifics.
> o You have to figure out what sorta of audio the drummer can hear
> above the band (beeps? Rim shots? Side-sticks? etc.)
Like I said, all the drummers I talked to about this used headphones.
I use a claves sound for the count-in clicks for my sequences, because
it cuts very well.
> o There are points in songs where the entire band has to get time
> even though there are no drums: Intros, but also, as an example,
> it's typical for the drums to come in on the 2nd verse and so
> where/how do you get your time throughout the first verse.
I *do* have this problem, because sometimes I have solo guitar intros
to my sequences. In other words, I might start something with just
acoustic guitar and have the sequence join me later. What I do is
program some non-intrusive sound that will blend with the guitar, like
a bass drum, or maybe the bass line of the picking pattern (I do a nice
intro to "Here Comes The Sun" unsing this method). The point is, pick
something you can distinguish from the other sounds, but which won't be
obvious to the audience. Synchronize your playing to that. I do this a
lot, and it works quite well.
> One thing I've found helpful here is to ALWAYS to the click intro
> the same: For a 4/4 song (which, sigh, covers most of what we do)
> we ALWAYS count in with:
>
> 1 2 3 4 1 2 - -
>
> That is its a two bar count-in with the last two beats silent.
Agreed. I start *all* of my sequences with claves playing:
1 - 3 - 1 2 3 4
Lawrence Welk style. I may drop the last click if there is a drum
lead-in.
> Doing it the same way every time avoids having the situations wher
> one member of the band comes after the first four.
This problem I don't have.
I'm *always* exactly in synch with myself. :-)
- Ram
|
| 2335.55 | how's your foot-hand coordination? | STOHUB::TRIGG::EATON | | Wed Feb 20 1991 13:22 | 16 |
|
> I *do* have this problem, because sometimes I have solo guitar intros
> to my sequences. In other words, I might start something with just
> acoustic guitar and have the sequence join me later. What I do is
> program some non-intrusive sound that will blend with the guitar, like
> a bass drum, or maybe the bass line of the picking pattern (I do a nice
> intro to "Here Comes The Sun" unsing this method). The point is, pick
> something you can distinguish from the other sounds, but which won't be
> obvious to the audience. Synchronize your playing to that. I do this a
> lot, and it works quite well.
I do this a lot too - but I find it a lot more pleasing musically to
have the foot pedal connected to the MC and have it start at the point the other
instruments come in - like at the lead in to the chorus or the second verse.
Dan
|
| 2335.56 | Nature of the Beast | AQUA::ROST | In search of the lost biscuit drop | Wed Feb 20 1991 13:36 | 6 |
| > I don't understand that. Can't you merge MIDI channels into one track
> on your sequencer?
Dave's using Ensoniq gear which allows only one MIDI channel per track.
Brian
|
| 2335.57 | | SALSA::MOELLER | Karl has... left the building. | Wed Feb 20 1991 15:41 | 6 |
| A dilemma. No solution here. Comment on the reply which suggested
using a visual cue, like a flashing LED, rather than an audio click.
I find it impossible to play to a flash.. have an electronic metronome
that allows me to choose. It just doesn't compute.
karl
|
| 2335.58 | thanks - good stuff | DREGS::BLICKSTEIN | I'll have 2 all-u-can-eat platters | Wed Feb 20 1991 17:05 | 71 |
| re: .52 (Errol)
Errol, the idea of using a slaved drum machine is exactly what I
proposed to the band yesterday. I hope we can try it tonite.
re: .53 (Mitch)
Unfortunately those time machines are way over my budget. I also
have an (as yet) unjustified distrust of them. Intuitively they
would seem prone to pratfalls.
>> o I have to sequence the click. This takes up a track in my
>> sequencer and I only have 8 (going to 24 soon but...)
> I don't understand that. Can't you merge MIDI channels into one track
> on your sequencer? The way I would do this would be to dedicate one of
> the 16 MIDI channels to the click track. If I was limited for tracks
> I'd merge it in with some other track.
On my sequencer you can't do that. The demand for tracks is further
complicated: I've done the sequences so that we COULD play w/o
a drummer if needed - so I actually have to use THREE tracks:
one for the click, one for the parts the drummer plays when he's
there and one for the sequenced drum parts that the drummer doesn't
play (latin perc, etc.)
> Finally, the MC-500 has a built-in audio synch pulse which also has an
> external output.
But on the MC-500 it's a "beep" right. It goes like: "Beep bip bip bip
Beep bip bip bip". I like my drummer too much to subject him to that.
One thing I've found is that drummers can DEAL with clicking sounds
(like a metronome), prefer drum sounds (for the click track), but
can't deal with anything with a "tone".
I've tried it too - it's OK for sequencing, not but for trying to
get time from the click while also trying to fit yourself into the
rest of the band.
>> One thing I've found helpful here is to ALWAYS to the click intro
>> the same: For a 4/4 song (which, sigh, covers most of what we do)
>> we ALWAYS count in with:
>>
>> 1 2 3 4 1 2 - -
>>
>> That is its a two bar count-in with the last two beats silent.
> Agreed. I start *all* of my sequences with claves playing:
>
> 1 - 3 - 1 2 3 4
Most bands I was in before did that, but I really like having that
little gap before the song starts - it's definitely MUCH better for
recording.
In fact, I think I'd NOW prefer to shorten it to just:
1 2 3 4 - - - -
Lawrence Welk style. I may drop the last click if there is a drum
lead-in.
> Doing it the same way every time avoids having the situations wher
> one member of the band comes after the first four.
This problem I don't have.
I'm *always* exactly in synch with myself. :-)
- Ram
|
| 2335.59 | | KOBAL::DICKSON | I watched it all on my radio | Thu Feb 21 1991 09:13 | 5 |
| Several of the high-end software sequencers have a "tap-tempo" feature
built in. You nominate some MIDI event as the "tap" and it will adjust
tempo of the sequence playback to match.
Much cheaper than the hardware "human clock" devices.
|
| 2335.60 | Customised Click-Tracks for happy drummers. | EICMFG::BURKE | Jim Burke, @UFC | Tue Feb 26 1991 06:55 | 19 |
| The click-track for the drummer is definitely the cheapest method,
although it's anathema to them. However, I experimented with a
'custom-sequenced click-track'. That is, it was NOT a continuous track
of clicks, one per beat. It varied throughout the song, leaving gaps for
fills (so that the clicks didn't "get in the way"), playing only the
off-beat during verses, increasing tempo a shade for the chorus, etc.
The drummer could handle this click-track much better - even
intuitively. It seems that it is the *monotony* of a rigid click-track
which gets up drummer's noses.
I still reckon the best method is a Stacy running C-Lab Creator with
Human Touch, so that the sequencer can pick up tempo changes from the
drummer (H-Hat/Kick/...) without the need for 'phones plus click-track.
Only trouble with this is, $�$$$�DM��$$���DM$$��$...
I've experimented with 'conducting' a tune, by configuring a particular
key on the mother keyboard. This worked fine; only problem was that,
for drastic tempo changes, you had to think one bar ahead.
Jim
|
| 2335.61 | | WEFXEM::COTE | There wasn't even any Hollywood! | Tue Feb 26 1991 08:07 | 4 |
| Why izzit many drummers can't/won't follow an external tempo
generator? Everyone else in the band does it almost exclusively...
Edd
|
| 2335.62 | Not Every Drummer Is Tony Williams | IXION::ROST | Rockette Morton's illegitimate son | Tue Feb 26 1991 08:38 | 6 |
| I disagree. As a bassist, you oughta know better. Ever had the feeling
when playing that the tempo was shifting? Then there's that weird few
bars where you try to get things back in synch...
Brian
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| 2335.63 | | MRCSSE::LEITZ | butch leitz | Fri Mar 01 1991 11:19 | 15 |
| re: the last few entries, the custom click track idea is a good
one. Whenver I have to be subjected to working with a preset tempo
i can only do it (well, lets say) by having a pattern or other
music going on...or at the very least, defining the click note
to be something that maps to a sound that doesn't get lost.
For instance I often use a woodblock for the click. A conga pattern
in the background is better, (but synching it (in isolation from
what your playing) isn't easy if you're playing real time into
the unit providing the tempo!)
oh, edd, btw, i've had psyched up guitarists and bassists take
the tempo over the edge no matter how hard I tried to keep it back.
(I also admit to doing the same thing periodically... ) Then they
typically blame the drummer for not holding it together or "playing
with the group".
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| 2335.64 | Surprize! | CSC32::MOLLER | Fix it before it breaks | Fri Mar 01 1991 14:46 | 4 |
| In general, playing with either a drum machine or a sequencer takes some
getting used to. A sequencer follows no one.
Jens
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| 2335.65 | Trials and tribulations.. | CITYFS::SM | Not now, I'm eating my lunch!!! | Sat Mar 02 1991 20:54 | 16 |
|
One of the biggest problems I had was finding a decent headphone
amp and mixer to enable the keyboards and a HR16 (synced to the
sequencer) to be played deafingly loud into our unsuspecting drummer
ears. I ended up building a 2 into 1 mixer and stereo headphone amp
into a rack case.
I generally setup the click as a cow bell which cuts well but I
found that he (the drummer) felt alot more at home with the keyboards
being in his headphones as well. It has taken a while for the band
to get used to the rigid tempo of a sequence but it seems to be comming
together well. The funny thing is we've ended up with only one sequnced
song anyway.
...
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| 2335.66 | Hey Anatek!!! Check this out! | DREGS::BLICKSTEIN | I'll have 2 all-u-can-eat platters | Tue Mar 05 1991 13:40 | 16 |
| In case anyone from Anatek (makers of those wonderful "Pocket" MIDI
products) happens to be reading this file... ;-)
A request: "Pocket Click"
Inputs: MIDI IN
Outputs: Headphone port
Switches:
o Click style: selects various kinds of clicks (beeps, side-stick,
cowbell, Snare & Bass, etc.)
o Time signature: (perhaps not needed if it recognizes end of bars)
You can send me 3 or 4 of them free for thinking of the idea.
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