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Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Title:* * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * *
Notice:Conference has been write-locked. Use new version.
Moderator:DYPSS1::SCHAFER
Created:Thu Feb 20 1986
Last Modified:Mon Aug 29 1994
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2852
Total number of notes:33157

2230.0. "KORG T2/M1 problem SHIFTing Programs" by FGVAXX::LAING (Soft-Core Cuddler*Jim Laing*282-1476) Tue Jan 09 1990 11:07

    When I create combinations on the T2 (same architecture as the M1),
    I notice a prominent problem: the sound changes when you shift it
    up or down (usually I do this in octave increments).  
    
    For example, say I'm setting up a piano/vibes combi.  I put the
    piano in the lowest 2.5 octaves of the keyboard, and I raise its
    pitch by +24 (2 octaves) for playing chords w/my left hand.  I put
    the vibes in the right part of the keyboard.  The sound of the piano
    is DISTINCTLY different when I play middle C in the "shifted-by+24"
    versus the "normal" full-keyboard piano program.  I've taken out
    all effects, so I know it's not created by effects.  This happens
    with most Programs I use, such as a horn sound in the right hand,
    shifte down one octave.
    
    My suspicion is that when I shift a program significantly (by an
    octave or two) that the VFD and VDA settings that use a "center
    key" and "key-tracking around that center key" cause problems since
    when I shift a Program, I don't shift the "center key" in the Program.
    I'd hoped that Shift would somehow (in software) shift things so
    that this effect is nullified, i.e. that if you shift a Program
    up +24 semitones in a Combination, the software would "interpret"
    notes played as is I'd played the note w/o the shift ... for example
    if I shift +24, and play the note 2 octaves below Middle C, I'd
    want the software to "think" I played middle C so that I don't get
    the drastic sound change.
    
    What happens is that sounds have VERY different character when I've
    shifted them - they become duller, less brilliance, different response
    to velocity, etc.  Fairly drastic to my ears ...
    
    HELP - is there anything I'm overlooking?  I've only had the T2
    for about 3 weeks ...
    
    	-Jim
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name		DateLines
2230.1shift note assignments, don't transposeNORGE::CHADIch glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tteTue Jan 09 1990 12:058
A generic answer (I don't know Korg series):

It sounds to me that what you want is not to shift the sound for where you
are playing it but rather to shift you "base" note -- ie, have c1 = c3 or
whatever for note assignment, not transposing ths samples.

Chad
2230.2Hmm.. re .1FGVAXX::LAINGSoft-Core Cuddler*Jim Laing*282-1476Wed Jan 10 1990 16:0117
    Re -.1
    
    I believe that I *am* shifting my "base note", i.e. not shifting
    the sample.  I belileve this beacuase as many of us know, shifting
    a *sample* more than even a few semitones causes some strange-sounding
    results.  When I shift "up" by +24 semitones, when I hit C1 I *do*
    hear the C3 sample, *but* all the filter/amp settings (VDF and VDA
    in KORG parlance) are not adjusted accordingly.  On the KORG you
    can say "have the filter track the keyboard, in such-n-such a way,
    centered on note X".  If note "X" is C3, and I've shifted so that
    if I want to hear C3 I play C1 (which works), it seems that the
    software isn't "smart" enough to shift the "center key" setting
    on any keyboard-traking settings.
    
    Know that I mean?!  This stuff is hard to describe!
    
    	-Jim
2230.3maybe you do have to manually change the stuffNORGE::CHADIch glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tteWed Jan 10 1990 17:043
I must have misunderstood you.  Sounds like you got it right.

Chad
2230.4same type problemPCOJCT::RYANThu Jan 11 1990 13:4013
    Greetings,
    
    I've noticed a very similar problem with my Roland D-10. There is
    a particular piano sound that I like however, I tend to play it
    in the bottom 2 octaves as it gets a little thin for my ears up
    higher. No problem right, shift it up +24 and get back some real
    estate. No so easy, when I shift it up +24 the sound changes quite
    a bit. I am also at a loss to explain this. It seems to be unique
    to
    this patch, I've shifted other patches +or- with no problems.
    Any thoughts??
    Gary Ryan
2230.5Because piano waves are different along the spectrumLOOKUP::ADSUPPORTThu Jan 11 1990 13:516
    	Maybe too easy, but...
    
    	Does the Lower patch use a different partial?  I thought the D
    series had different "piano" hammers.
    
    --mikie--
2230.6Transpose >< Pitch ShiftDRUMS::FEHSKENSMon Jan 15 1990 11:3915
    I don't know that this explanation applies to the current generation
    of sample based synths, but there's a similar (almost said "analogous")
    effect with good old fashioned analog synths.  If the offset applies
    only to the oscillators, then the relative tracking of the filter
    with respect to the note's fundamental will change, and this will
    affect the timbre.  Other relationships (e.g., envelope shape as
    a function of note number) may also change with respect to pitch,
    similarly affecting timbre.
    
    You'd have to understand exactly what the mechanism was to understand/
    predict the effect.  There are lots of diferent wways to "transpose",
    not all of which are timbrally equivalent.
    
    len.