Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    I heard from a  Wurlitzer salesman that it will be rack mountable and can
    accept 3 1/2" floppy disc. It will accept data from any computer
    sequencer software which will enable disc storage and eliminate the 
    transport of computer, monitor, etc. This could be the ultimate anwser.
    The ability to utilize the enormous power of a Hybrid arts sequencer
    program for use in a live performance atmosphere without bringing the
    3 tons of computer equipment...

This sounds good to me. I want to add a second sequencer to my Live act
& have been using the Alesis MMT-8 for a while. Why 2 sequencers?? To
pre-load while playing. I hate delays when playing live (even for 10-15
seconds) & I don't want anything that isn't rackmounted these days.

Good move, as long as there is compatability with the MMT-8 (so I can
load to either). Of course more memory (maybe 10 times as much) would
be nice also.

							Jens

Sounds like you are describing the Alesis MIDI-disk filer, which I think is
NOT a sequencer, more of a SYSEX, and perhaps MIDI file file storage medium.

I'd sure be interested in a next-generation sequencer in the MMT-8 price range.
I'm in the market for something like that.

	Eirikur

I think that is what he saw.  (midi filer)

speculation
You could play a sequence into it and then dump it back out?

Chad

    SOME ADDED INFO ON ALESIS MIDI FILER
    
    I called E.U. Wurlitzer for a price: It should list for $399.00
    The price is right but I will have read some specs on it.

    Indian Valley also has a MIDI disk that Jens rated quite highly a few
    notes back (SHOW KEY/FULL MIDI_DISK for note number). 

    $399 sounds awful pricey.

-b

	I got the Indian Valley Music MidiDisk for $375.00 & it allows you to
	pre-buffer things, where as the Alesis (according to what I read
	doesn't use a buffer). The difference is that you can store a
	larger buffer in the Alesis (approx 700K at a shot - maybe needed
	if you are loading a sampler), where you are limited to 128K
	on the IVM device. The advantage that I see in pre-buffering is that
	you can load the IVM's buffers while you are playing a song. This
	saves me about 5 seconds between breaks (since I often pre-buffer
	a set of sequences after loading my MMT-8). Also, you can save
	more than one SYSEX in a buffer on the IVM device (I have sequences
	that reload both my MMT-8 and ESQ-1 in one shot. Previous to this
	I had (a now dead) Yamaha MIDI filer (59K dumps max). I'd guess that
	the Alesis and the IVM MidiDisk are pretty much equal in performance,
	but I wish that the IVM had nameable files (it uses numbers).

	No matter what, having 'generic SYSEX saver' is very nice & I seem
	to get about 60 songs (MMT-8 sequencer) per disk & approx 10 to
	15 second load time.
							Jens

    
    Peavey has also introduced a MIDI disk filer. No idea on price.
    
    						Brian
   

    Question: With the possibility of using powerful sequencer programs
    like Hybrid Arts, will this bring more power to a live performance than
    an Roland MC-500II sequencer, while still keeping the portability of a 
    rackmountable disc-filer?

    I think you misunderstand the way these things work.

    This device does *not* act as a sequencer.  It's not a 'generic
    hardware' platform.  It does nothing but accept memory dumps from other
    machines, eliminating the need for cassette tape backups (like the old
    Radio Shack TRS80 computers), and generally making cataloguing of
    patches easier for folks who don't have computers and software to do
    this already. 

    Hybrid Arts' sequencers will run on an Atari, and that's it.  MOTU will
    run on the MAC - that's it.  Creator/Notator will run on the Atari -
    that's it.  Voyetra and Cakewalk will only run on IBM compatibles. 

    All this machine can do is accept SYSEX dumps from other machines.
    Synthesizers' SYSEX dumps are simply parameters associated with its
    patches.  MIDI sample dumps are simply a SYSEX shell around a standard
    structure defined by the MIDI Assn. to describe samples consistently
    among mfgrs. 

    Sequencer SYSEX dumps are simply 'core dumps' of the sequencer's
    memory.  They cannot be xfered to any sequencer other than that same
    type (e.g., MMT8 can read/write MMT8 SYSEX only - QX5 can't read MMT8
    SYSEX).

    MIDI files are a bit different.  Like sample dumps, they use predefined
    standards to build their output 'file' so that other sequencer packages
    conforming to the standard can read these files.  Note, however, that
    there are many features that are not implemented by all sequencers.
    Some aspects of the sequence may be lost during these types of
    transfers. 

    Hope this helps a bit.

-b

    
    I guess my question is the following: Can I set a sequenced song, using
    my Atari ST, then dump it to the Alesis disc filer for performance
    usage? Another words build a file of sequences from the St and use the
    disc filer as sequence player?
                                 

    Absolutely not.  I wonder what the market would be for one of these
    beasties, though ... especially if it were 1 space rackmountable....

-b

    
    
    Re -2 -3..
    
    Remember we spoke about these about 2 weeks ago.
    
    There is the ELKA machine which spews back exactly what you spewed
    up, and stores to 3.5 inch disk. No editing facilities at all.
    
    And there was the cassette machine which does exactly the same.
    
    Remember ?
    
    					Paul.
    
    

    I got a look at the Alesis DataDisk at Acton Music today. I don't have
    all of the details on it, but this is the best I can provide:
    
    - It has about 800K storage on the floppy
    
    - There is no internal buffering, or "pre-buffering". They claim this
    to be an advantage in the sense that all operations are directly to and
    from the disk itself. In other words, there is no need to buffer
    because you can get data on and off the disk as fast as you can send or
    receive it.
    
    - It has a bunch of buttons and a small display on the front panel
    (it's a single, full-width rack mount module) that support simple
    commands like "Send", "Receive", "Delete", "Name", etc.
    
    - The only I/O is MIDI IN and MIDI OUT on the back (that I could see).
    
    - You can give text names to files, however, the facilities for editing
    in the names are pretty crude. The only way to search for a file that I
    could see was to scroll through the entire list (the manual says they
    are ordered alphabetically, which I suppose could facilitate the search
    - there was only one file on the disk on the demo unit so I couldn't
    try how efficient the scrolling was).
    
    - The list price is supposed to be $399. They claim Alesis doesn't
    permit much discounting (I'd appreciate feedback on that from others).
    They units are not actually available yet, but they expect some by
    mid-November.
    
    I've never looked at any other MIDI-disk drives, but from what I've
    heard about them in this conference, this seems like a pretty nice one.
    I couldn't get them to be very specific about how much you could store
    on it (they really didn't know), but from what I've read elsewhere
    about MIDI density and from what they could tell me, I would guess that
    you could get about 50 simple song sequences on one disk.
    
    - Ram

    re: Alesis discounting...
    
    Alesis products are typically subject to the same 'discountability'
    as other companies. The only time I haven't seen an item discounted
    by most dealers was when the HR-16 was introduced, and that was more
    accountable to supply and demand. (I got mine for $50 off list during 
    this period....)
    
    Edd

    Generally, Alesis products are discounted as follows:

	LIST	AVAIL
	-----	-----
	$499	$425
	$449	$395 (or 399)
	$399	$325
	$299	$225

    This is just experience, not some "internal view" or something.

-b

    Though there is no evidence that this MIDI disk uses the standard MIDI
    file format (and they probably don't), but assuming they *did*, it
    would take about 5 bytes per MIDI event on average, assuming not much
    use of running status.  A note needs an ON and an OFF, so 10 bytes per
    note, maybe 8 or 9 if you got lucky, the disk software was clever, and
    you were only using one channel.  And your tempo was a reasonable match
    for how fast you were playing.  And you didn't use any continuous
    controllers.
    
    So for a ballpark, 800KB would be 80K notes, minus directory overhead.
    *IF* they use MIDI file format.  If they use something else, they
    probably get fewer notes per disk.  Better to plan on 50K notes.

I bought one last week - the very first demo one that appeared in the 
Wurlizter store in Portsmouth. I paid $350. (This is the same price 
quote that Daddy's Manchester gave me, but they still haven't even 
called me with an estimate of when they expect them to be shipped to 
the store. Meanwhile, I've been using mine for over a week!)

It's very easy and straightforward to use, the scrolling (while 
clumsy) is quick. It is ordered alphabetically. Documentation is well 
written (is this really the same company that wrote the horrible 
HR-16/MMT-8 manual?)

Very quick send and retrieve from my MMT-8 to the disk drive.

-Dan

    If I recall correctly (and I may not), the Roland MC-500 can store
    about 100000 notes on an MF2DD (880K) disk.  I would guess the Alesis
    could do about the same.
    
    len.
    

    I'm curious if any other Alesis DataDisk owners have had problems with
    their drives. Mine has worked fine for the past few months. A couple of
    days ago when I tried to load a file into my MMT-8 the disk reported
    that the load was finished, but the MMT-8 never finished loading. This
    only happened with one file, but happened every time I tried to load
    that particular file. I tried copying the file to another disk, and
    then I could load it ok.
    
    Since then this has happened with several other files. At first I
    suspected the MMT-8, but since it seems to be related to specific
    files, and in fact specific incarnations of those files, I've come to
    believe it must be the DataDisk.
    
    Anyway, I'm going to call Alesis tomorrow and see if they know anything
    about it, and I will post the results here. I just thought I'd check to
    see if anyone might have had a similar problem.
    
    By the way, while I'm on the subject I'd like to complain about a
    certain local music store very close to Maynard from which I bought
    this unit. Within a few weeks of when I bought it I asked them if I
    could return it on a trade up to some much more expensive equipment. I
    thought if they didn't give me a full refund they could at least give
    me a good value on a trade. The deal they offered me was much worse
    than I could easily get for this unit on the open market. Normally I
    don't expect to get good deals from dealers on used equipment, but in
    this case since I had just bought it from them a few weeks ago, it was
    in perfect condition (with all original packing), and I was prepared to
    buy something more expensive, I thought they were pretty unreasonable.
    
    To make matters worse, I called them today about the problem I was
    having with the unit, and all they could tell me was to call Alesis. I
    aksed them if they could give me a loaner in the event that I have to
    get this one serviced, as I am a working musician and can't do without
    the equipment. All they would offer me was an expensive rental
    arrangement.
    
    I wouldn't generally complain about dealers, because I don't expect
    much from them, but in this case I have to ask myself why I should buy
    from a dealer such as this rather than from a mail-order house. I don't
    see that I would be any worse off if I had gotten this as a discount
    mail-order purchase.
    
    - Ram

This has happened before on my IVM disk drive also, but only on occasion.
It appears that the end of transmission info somehow didn't get sent to
the MMT-8. When I did this last, it occurred because I hit the reset
button on my MX-8 (There was a stuck on note & I wanted to get rid of
it) before the disk buffer transfer had finished (stupid, I know, but 
that's life). Now that file would always never finish it's load. You may have
hit a keyboard note or something that caused the MIDI stream to be confused
before the MIDI buffer data was completely sent. Since I've stopped hitting
buttons on my MX-8 and keyboards during saves/loads, It's never happened
again.

							Jens

    That's a good point, Jens, I often do my saves to disk using MIDI-thru
    on my keyboard, and it never occurred to me that I might accidently be
    introducing garbage into the output stream. I'll take precautions on
    that in the future.
    
    It still doesn't answer the question, however, as to why the file would
    load when copied to another disk. As an engineer, the only explanation
    I can come up with for this behavior is a problem with the disk
    controller that causes it to produce read errors on certain sectors of
    the disk which the DataDrive doesn't handle properly. I've contacted
    Alesis about this, and they had never heard of the problem before.
    Their only suggestion was to return the unit and they would give it
    priority treatment (like a 48-hour turn-around). I guess I have no
    recourse at this point.
    
    - Ram

    A posting from USENET.  Alesis has enhanced their data filer to allow
    simple "jukebox" sequencer capability (i.e. records and plays but no
    editing).  Apparently older units can be updated with this new
    feature.
    
    
=============================================================================
 
        New                      DataDisk SQ
                          A Major Product Enhancement
 
 
You Know DataDisk: The Sys Ex Data Filer...
___________________________________________
 
DataDisk is a universal system exclusive MIDI data storage and retieval unit
capable of storing up to 800K of patch data from your synth, program data
from your QuadraVerb or MidiVerb III, or sequence data from your MMT-8 onto
a 3.5" floppy disk.
 
 
Sys Ex Filer Features
_____________________
 
 o Compatible with almost all MIDI gear
 o Maximum file size equal to disk capacity of 800K
 o Perfect storage companion for the MMT-8, HR-16, HR-16:B, QuadraVerb
        or MidiVerb III
 o Files are stored on 3.5" floppy disk
 o Files can be named
 
 
Meet DataDisk SQ: The Sequencer
_______________________________
 
DataDisk is now also capable of recording and playing back MIDI performance
data (not just sys ex data) in real time.  This allows you to record a MIDI
sequence from an MMT-8 or other sequencer and play it back live from disk at
a gig while your sequencer or computer stays at home in your studio.  You can
also play your MIDI keyboard or other controller directly into your DataDisk,
then download the data into your MMT-8 for editing.  This major enhancement
to DataDisk is user updatable.
 
 
Real Time Sequencing Features
_____________________________
 
 o Stores MIDI data in real time
 o Plays back stored MIDI data as sequences
 o DataDisk can be used to play back sequences live
 o Software is user updatable
 
=============================================================================
 
Disclaimer:
I have no affiliation with Alsesis other than as a usually satisfied customer.
 
-- 
============================================================================
Michael Kesti  Grass Valley Group, Inc. | "Like one and one don't make two,
    [email protected]              |  one and one make one."
    !tektronix!gvgpsa!gvgspd!mrk        |         - The Who, Bargain

    Hey, this is a neat feature. Makes me almost wish I hadn't replaced my
    MMT-8 and DataDisk with the MC-500. My main gripes with the MMT-8 were
    the load time between songs and the shortage of memory. This would
    eliminate the load time problem for performing, and would help a lot
    with the memory limitations by allowing portions of songs or single
    tracks to be written out to disk by sending them out the MIDI port. The
    MMT-8 allows this for tapes read/writes, but not disk read/writes (only
    whole songs). If the DataDisk can take direct MIDI data in and out it
    should be very useful.
    
    I still consider the MC-500 to be better quality and a more powerful
    editor, but for around $600 (maybe as low as $400 used) the MMT-8 and
    DataDisk with the SQ option would be a good "starter kit".
    
    - Ram

    From USENET, an owner's review of the new DataDisk SQ.
    
    
From: [email protected] (Michael R. Kesti)
Newsgroups: rec.music.synth
Subject: DataDisk SQ review
Date: 17 Sep 90 23:32:48 GMT
 
A few weeks ago I posted here that I had been informed of Alesis' intention
to release a software upgrade to their DataDisk that would add sequencing to
the base product.  I had asked whether anyone could answer a few questions
about it, but received no solid answers.  I have recently purchased one, and
thought I'd pass along what I have found.
 
First, I really like this product, as it is exactly what I have been looking
for in a roadworthy "computer" for over a year.  My needs are (were):
 
	1) compact, rack mount, and rugged (I refuse to gig my PC),
	2) the ability to provide both sysex dump storage/retreival and
	   sequencing, and,
	3) convenient medium capacity storage.
 
The DataDisk SQ meets these needs as follows:
 
	1) 1 space rack mount package with no especially delicate components,
	2) sysex storage was the product's initial intent and the SQ upgrade
	   adds sequencing, and,
	3) 790 Kbytes of storage per 3.5" floppy disk.
 
I won't discuss the sysex storage functions, as they are very straight
forward, and most readers are probably already aware of (or can readily
obtain information concerning) how they work, but will detail the new
sequencer functions.
 
The SQ upgrade implements its sequencer functions by extending the functions
of the RECEIVE, SEND, and MIDI switch functions.  To record a sequence, one
presses the RECEIVE switch until the display reads:
 
		RECV MIDI SEQ:
		WAITING FOR DATA
 
Then, upon receipt of ANY data (more on this later), the display changes to
 
		Receiving Seq...
		File Complete?
 
and stays that way, time stamping and writing the data directly to disk as
it is received, until the user presses the DO/YES switch or one minute of no
received data passes.  The file is then closed.  I am told (but, of course,
Alesis does not specify) that the time stamp resolution is 1 millisecond,
which is very close to the best case time of 960 microseconds required to
send the three bytes of a note on message.  In any event, I have attempted
to torture test it by recording gobs of controller data along with complex
percussion tracks, but have been unable to detect any improper timing on
playback.  This was of particular concern to me, as I have experienced
playback timing problems with Alesis' MMT-8.
 
To subsequently send a stored sequence back to one's synth(s), one presses
the SEND switch, then the SCROLL switches to find the desired sequence, and
finally the DO/YES switch to transmit the file.  Sequence transmission may
be stopped in midstream by pressing either of the SCROLL switches.  If the
file transmits to completion, the next file on the disk is selected and its
transmission may be initiated by again pressing the DO/YES switch.  This is
a handy feature, as one can prepare a disk of songs in the intended order
of performance and advance through them with a single switch press for each. 
 
The unit has no concept of tempo and sequences are normally sent with the
same relative timing as received.  One may, however, set the unit to sync
to incoming midi clock messages.  This is selected via a new menu item under
the MIDI switch.  In this case, when the user has selected SEND, SCROLLed to
the desired file, and pressed the DO/YES switch, the display will read:
 
		Waiting for MIDI
		Start/Continue...
 
and begins to send the file upon receipt of these messages, synced to the
subsequently received clock messages.  One caveat to this is that the stored
sequence must have been recorded with embedded clock messages, otherwise the
entire file is sent upon receipt of the first clock (!).  Although I have yet
to actually try external sync, I think that this will prove to be a bit of a
problem.  Remember I said that, when receiving a sequence, the receipt of ANY
data is considered the start of the file?  Well, ANY data seems to include
the real time messages, such as clock and active sensing.  Because of this,
I routinely filter them out of the data stream with my MX-8.  In this way,
the DataDisk's image of the sequence begins when I start the sequence at my
PC.  I cannot think of a way to record clocks without accumulating extraneous
clocks between the start of sequence reception at the DataDisk and sequence
transmission at my PC.  This means that if I attempt to externally syncronize
the DataDisk, its data output will be late by the number of extraneous clocks
that were accumulated.
 
One neat new feature is that one can store the settings of the MIDI switch
menus to disk, and these settings will be subsequently restored when the
disk is again accessed.  This means that one could have a disk of songs that,
say, requires echo on and another that requires echo off, and the echo state
selection will occur automatically upon playback.  This has the potential
for reducing the chance of error while in a performance situation!
 
I have experienced one operational difficulty.  I have one sequence that
SOMETIMES fails to terminate when sent.  It gets to the end, pauses a moment,
and then starts to send more data, from about the middle of the last verse.
At first I thought it might be a thermal problem, as it seemed to happen only
when the room was quite warm, but now I'm not so sure.  I can find nothing
that's unique about this song's data.  In the meantime, I will be VERY
careful to watch for termination when performing this song!
 
Again, I very much like this product, and recomend it to anyone whose needs
are similar to mine.  I really am beginning to feel like a walking Alesis
advertisment, as, to date, I have purchased one QuadraVerb, one 1622, one
Microverb, two Cue Amps, one MMT-8, and now the DataDisk SQ.  Where do I
sign for the endorsment deal?!?
 
-- 
============================================================================
Michael Kesti  Grass Valley Group, Inc. | "Like one and one don't make two,
    [email protected]              |  one and one make one."
    !tektronix!gvgpsa!gvgspd!mrk        |         - The Who, Bargain
 
Oops!  I just discovered that this is not true.  I was preparing just such
a disk for an open mic I'm playing tonight, and discovered that it always
proceeds alphabetically.  It had appeared to proceed in the order they were
written to disk because until now the only disks I had loaded were complete
sets of all my sequences, and I had done this alphabetically in order to
facilitate finding particular files.
 
I suppose I could make a single file that has all of the songs in the order
I wish to perform them, but there would be no way to pause between songs
for comments, jokes, guitar tuning, and applause (if any ;-).
 
Sheesh.  The MS-DOS dir command gives me the order of the File Allocation
Table when I'd prefer alphabetical, and the DataDisk gives me alphabetical
when I'd prefer FAT order!  8-)
 
-- 
============================================================================
Michael Kesti  Grass Valley Group, Inc. | "Like one and one don't make two,
    [email protected]              |  one and one make one."
    !tektronix!gvgpsa!gvgspd!mrk        |         - The Who, Bargain

    Has anyone actually used Datadisk SQ? I'm curious as to how much disk
    space the sequences take up when stored in real-time format. In other
    words, how many real-time sequence files can you fit on a disk?
    
    I know with regular files (such as MMT-8 output) you can store up to 20
    or so on a disk.
    
    - Ram