Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Yabbut, I thought the big deal about the Proteus was not just the
    great samples, but also that you can diddle with the parameters
    to a great extent - so great that remarks have been made about it
    being *much* more than a sample player.  Unless Kurzweil has found a
    way to make the diddling easier than it was with the 1000s, my 
    guess is they're still missing the boat.  What makes the 900 MX more
    than just a great sample player?
    
    Steve

   <<< Note 2052.1 by MIZZOU::SHERMAN "ECADSR::SHERMAN 227-3299, 223-3326" >>>
            -< not that I'm ready to buy ... anything (sniff) ... >-

There are pros and cons with each system. Here are some that I see...

900MX
-----

pros:   the "best" piano
	sound cards, choice
	24 voice poly
	ease of use (less diddling of configurations)
	available soon?

cons:	no strings in base unit
	stereo outputs only
	less voices
	less programability
	additional cost of cards (how much?)

Proteus
-------

pros:	more variety of sounds initially
	32 voice poly
	more programmable
	6 outputs with flexible routing
	external f/x loops

cons:	no additional sound card slots, requires daughter card internal
	piano not as good
	not available soon?
	additional sound card may cost $500

They are both basically great sample players. The sound cards, availability, and
piano might tend to tip me in favor of the MX. I'll probably end up getting
one of each. A newcomer could buy a MIDI board, Proteus, and 900 MX for around
$3500 or less (when available). With a starting system like that, you could
be turning out your own CDs and DATs in no time. 8^)) See topic 1886 for more
Proteus info.

dave

    
    	We are in for a rash of band-wagon-jumping. Basically
    	it's now price/performance trade for samplers vs.
    	sample players.
    
    	Beware of 'availibility == n' cause everyone sees big
    	bucks here based on Proteus interest. Promises....
    
    	Then, in 6 months or so, we'll be paying closer to what
    	they all were worth....and along comes the next round.
    
    	rr
    

    Not being familiar with the Kurzweil 250's electric piano(s),
    I can only hope the 900MX doesn't inherit the crap that passes for
    Rhodes sounds in the 1000PX.
    
    karl

    <<< Note 2052.4 by SALSA::MOELLER "118�F,but it's a DRY heat.(THUD!)" >>>

I'll 2nd that, karl. This 900 MX is supposed to be the "best of the bunch" as
far as sample content goes. I'll take an MKS20 electric piano and vibes any
day, but gimme that Kurzweil Grand Piano!

dave

    I agree, the MKS-20 Rhodes is incredible. 
    
    People are usually stunned when I run it through my JC-120 with
    the stereo chorus turned on.
    
    I consider that combo my "bread and butter" sound.  When everything
    else breaksdown, I just go to that.
    
    You can hear every note in even the most weird chords.
    
    	db

I just talked with David Fox at Kurzweil. He confirmed the planned Aug.
ship date. According to him, the 900 MX is only 12 voice poly (ala K250)
rather than 24 voice poly as Caruso's said. Apparently, there will be
some strings in the 60 sound factory set. They are still deciding on
which sounds to include.

 Other new product info...

The 2nd expander card for the 1000PX (PXB) should be available in Sept.
and is planned to include acoustic guitar, tenor sax, marimba, latin perc.,
muted rock guitar, digital waveforms, etc. Retail list on the PXA and PXB
is $495. Installation is usually extra. User installation voids the warranty.

They are planning on introducing a K1200 keyboard, 88 keys, equivalent to
1000PX with both additional sound blocks. This sounds like the machine the
K250 should have been.

dave

I just talked with Larry at Caruso's - my brother has been looking for a decent-
priced sound module for his WX7 (since I moved out, he's been stuck without
anything).  Anyway, I picked up a demo DX11 for him (he wanted a keyboard) and I
asked Larry if he had any info on the K1200.

Basically, it's the same keyboard (wooden, weighted) as the MIDIboard.  He 
expects it to sell for about $2600.  This appears quite tempting - sell my
KX88, TX802, raise a few more bucks.....MIDI fever is beginning to strike again.
(Oh, No!!!!!)


Dan

PS.  Dave Orin, does *everyone* in that place know you?  You must be one of 
their best customers - I said I "kind of" knew you, and they said they wouldn't 
bother waiting for the check to clear!!  Amazing...... :^)

           <<< Note 2052.8 by MIDI::DAN "All things are possible" >>>
                              -< Caruso says... >-

Dan,

I do a lot of mailorder business with Caruso's. They always give me a
great price; first time; no haggling. I refer a lot of people to them
because their service, prices, and shipping are so excellent. I ordered
a quadraverb on a Thurs. afternoon around 5pm. It was waiting on my
doorstep the next morning. They are friendly, courteous, and actually
call you back when they say they will. Rick Watson in keyboards calls
me at home and faxes info to me whenever there is a hot deal. We
recently got an incredible deal on several 1000 PX's. I won't quote the
price because it is not their standard price. It will really benefit
anyone who wants to save money and deal with "the best" to contact
Caruso's.

dave

Dave,

	I must agree - I've been dealing with Lasalle's for most of my stuff
but after my great experience with Caruso's yesterday - great to talk to,
very knowledgeable, willing to help the customer, etc., etc., I think I'll
be switching loyalty.  Thanks for sharing your experiences.

Dan

    RE: Roland Rhodes

    Yes, I love it too. I'd also like Roland to do a Wurlitzer using SAS...

    Greg.

    re: -.a few (about the 1000PX Electric Piano sound)
    
    (Sorry this is late.  Just got back from vacation.)
    
    I just wanted to add that the "electric piano" sound on the stock
    1000PX is "just" an electric piano waveform that is short and with some
    looping weirdness.  If one wants a "real" electric piano sound on the
    1000PX, the PX-A soundblock offers a few "real" samples of a rhodes:
    soft and hard that differ in the attack.  There are some provided
    patches that give you just the soft, just the hard, and a velocity
    crossfade.  I can't compare these to the Roland (since I've never heard
    both head-to-head) but if you want to compare Rhodes sounds, these
    would be the 2 to compare.
    
    I'll volunteer my 1000PX if anyone is ever up for a LERDS-BIM electric
    piano playoff.
    
    (Note, I'm not trying to justify spending the ~$400 for the PX-A just
    for the rhodes.)
    
    For what it's worth...
    
    - John -

Well, not to defend Kurzweil, but it depends on what you call an electric
piano, I suppose.  To me, the first Elec. Piano patch sounds exactly like
the Yamaha CP35 electronic piano.  And in that light, it's really not a 
bad sound.  So, if you're doing a set of old Cars or Thompson Twins, you're
all set.... 8^)

But, true, it don't sound nuthin like a Rhodes!

/Andy

    >  Yes, I love it too. I'd also like Roland to do a Wurlitzer using
    >  SAS...
    
    Gee, I had thought that's what EPiano2 was on the
    MKS-20/RD/PF/Pnnn/etc!
    
    I had even though it was described that way somewhere in the Roland
    literature, but I'm not sure of that.
    
    	db

    re .14
    
    I always thought that EPiano1 was a Fender Rhodes, and EPiano2 was the
    Yamaha DX Rhodes patch (at least for me, those two sounds are
    incredibly realistic on the MKS).
    
    My tongue is hanging out for the K1200 though.....
    
    Steve

The K1200 certainly sounded interesting to me so I called Kurzweil and talked
to David Fox.  He says it is an 88 note keyboard with synthesizer type action
instead of the K1000 style which got negative reaction.  He said it is NOT based
on the MIDIboard, and does NOT have wooden keys.  He did say they were still
designing a number of new software features.  For example to allow for 
transmiting on more than one MIDI channel.  He also said that it was definitly
NOT a keyboard controller.

As for sounds, he said that it was essentially a PX "plus" (which includes the
PXA block) AND the PXB sound block.  He again eluded to some new software
features but said they were still being designed.

He mentioned that they showed it at the NAMM show and the keyboard was very
popular (although he offered he and some of his collegues did not like it and
prefered the K1000 feel).

	- Jim

    On a completely unrelated note ...

    Evidently due to eyestrain (see? %^), I read db's reference to Roland
    "literature" as "illiterature".  Got a good laugh out of it before I
    realized my mistake.  Thanks anyway, db. 

-b 

    > Evidently due to eyestrain (see? %^), I read db's reference to Roland
    > "literature" as "illiterature".  Got a good laugh out of it before
    > I realized my mistake.
    
    Having expressed my views on Roland documentation many times in this
    conference, you might know that I wouldn't consider calling it
    "illiterature" as a "mistake".
    
    	db
    
    p.s.  And by the way, another "round" in the "debunking the Roland
    	  reliability myth" wars - My Roland sampler broke (again) just before
          this weekends DECjam (fortunately in such a way that there was
          a work-around for).
    
    	  It's a great sampler, but it is ANYTHING but reliable!

>    Gee, I had thought that's what EPiano2 was on the
>    MKS-20/RD/PF/Pnnn/etc!
    
>    I had even though it was described that way somewhere in the Roland
>    literature, but I'm not sure of that.
    
    Hmmm. That's strange. I've been told by a few sources (Notes included),
    that Super Tramp used the Wurlitzer extensively. (e.g Breakfast in
    America album). The Roland doesn't sound much like that to me. I've
    never played the real thing, so I'm no reference. Anyway, that warm,
    metallic sound that ST had is what I want. Just guessing, but I think
    David Dundas used one in Blue Jeans - know the sound I mean?

    Maybe there was more than one type of Wurlitzer e.piano?

    Greg.

    ps. I'd like to discuss this in a more "related" topic if anyone
    wants...

I think the EPIANO-2 sounds like a Wurlie under certain circumstances. 
A good modern example of a Wurliter is on Boston's ``Third Stage'' album.

Personally, I have been able to get a good Supertramp sound with my
Rhodes patches.  I hadn't even considered that it might be a Wurlitzer,
but now that I think about it, it certainly could be.

Keyboards used to be like guitars, in that there were only a few basic
sounds, and people would EQ, process and customize the heck out of them
to get a ``distinctive'' sound.  When was the last time you changed the
hammers on your VFX?

Steph

    ...a little off the topic...
    
    A friend of mine was speaking to Dougie Thomson (bass player of
    Supertramp). They carry about 14 Wurlies on tour because they go
    out of tune so easily.
    
    Jim Burke

RE .21

Don't know if it's the tuning or the fact that tines break so easily.

Ah, the good 'ol days of the Wurly - so *easy* to tune - where's
my soldering iron and my metal file?


8^)


andy

    Question(s):
    
        Can someone experienced in 1000 expanders assist me here? 
    I'm trying to distinguish the differences between the 1000 PX,  PX +,
    and 900MX.   
    
    o   From what I can tell, the PX 1000 +  is similar to the PX 1000 
        (plus SOUNDBLOCK A)?   Are there any other differences that I
        should know about.  Is the + more expandable than the 1000?
    	
    o   The PX1000+ has not yet been discounted. but the PX 1000 has.  So
        would buying the PX1000 for ~ 600 (if I can find one) and getting the 
    	SOUNDBLOCK A be a cheaper option than getting the +?    (Too much 
    	symbolic logic here  :-) )
    
    o   Or, would it be better to wait for the 900 MX?   How much of a
    	difference (real world) is there between the 1000's and the alleged
    	900?   In terms of programming that is *REALLY* useful?  
    
    
    If I were me, what would I do? ...
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ken Rosenberg
    Software Specialist
    Delaware Office


P.S.  I have a hold on an 1000HX expander, and have briefly looked at the doc, 
but haven't even had a chance to plug it in.  However, feel free to lay some 
of the hard stuff on me.   For example, will the 900 MX support layering, 
ASDR, inverse stuff.   My decision to buy the HX is hinging on the results of 
this topic.  I have it nabbed in the meantime, and my favorite salesman is \
being very nice to me, while I run around behind his back asking all of you 
(who's input I highly value) for help.   Thanks!

    Ron:
    
    Although I am not an expert on Kurzweil, I have just purchased a
    1000PX and I had the chance to visit their headquarters to pick
    up some info.  
    
    1) As you stated the 1000PX and 1000PX Plus are basically the same
       except for the fact that the Plus has the "A" Soundblock builtin.
       The User Interface on the Plus is also a little better (more
       buttons, see related notes - DIR /TITLE="KURZWEIL").
    
    2) If you can get a 1000PX for $600 and the Soundblock for about
       $375-425), you would indeed be coming out ahead over the purchase
       of a new 1000PX Plus.  
    
    3) This is subjective, but after reading about the 900MX I chose
       to go with the 1000PX.  There were more of the sounds I really
       wanted and at the price ($699) it was a "no-brainer".  From what
       I read there are no great programming revolutions in the 900MX
       over the 1000 Series.
    
    If you can get a 1000PX for $600 you should go for it, if you like
    the sounds.  Kurzweil is coming out with a number of permutations
    of the 1000PX (like the 1000EX Ensemble Module) which will have
    most of the PX sounds plus a few the PX does not have.  From the
    literature they gave me, they are not dropping the PX quite yet.
    For that reason, the 900MX might not be out right away.
    
    The 1000HX is another flavor featuring horns and should not be confused
    with the 1000PX.  From the time I've spent listening to the units
    and the "A" Soundblock, you really can't go wrong with the PX and
    most of the other units to a lesser extent.  I was not as impressed
    with the "A" Soundblock and will probably be going for a Roland
    R-5 for drums.
    
    Hope this helps,
    Bill Allen

    re: .23
    
    I won't speculate on what the 900 does/doesn't have since that won't
    help you.  From what I've read about so far, the big difference is in
    the polyphony.  The 900 has 12 note polyphony while the 1000PX has 24
    note polyphony.
    
    If you expect to use this unit as a major source of simultaneous
    sounds, the 12-note limitation might get in your way.  My brother and I
    have sequenced some arrangements with piano, drums, strings, and
    "noises" and have been able to play it back without losing any notes. 
    I bet if we only had 12 notes to work with at a time, we'd be losing
    some along the line.
    
    Another comparison I'd make is the number of soundfiles on board and
    which ones they are.  It might not be a serious loss if the 900 series
    didn't have some of the sampled synthesizer-ish waveforms.  It's best
    to check, however, and make sure the sounds you want are there.
    
    With regard to the 1000PX Plus user interface, it's the same interface
    as the K100 series has.  This means that you get the standard 1000PX
    interface plus buttons labeled A, B, C, and 1 through 10.  Using this
    you can assign a patch number (001 - xxx) to A1, another patch to A2,
    etc., etc.  This mostly a convenience for access to sounds.  With a
    straight 1000PX, I've gotten used to having to do some scrolling.  The
    Plus interface might help a bit, but not as much as a direct access
    mechanism.  (This means I'm pretty sure you can't press the 1, 7, and 8
    buttons on the Plus or K1000 and get to patch 178.)
    
    Hope this helps,
    
    - John -

I have a K1000, which has the A, B, C, and 0-9 buttons.  The number buttons
*can* be used to go directly to a patch--press Enter, the digits in the patch,
and Enter again.  I would assume this would also work on the PX1000 if it has
these buttons.

-Mark