Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    $500 is a *very* good price for an MKS-70.  I'm still seriously
    in love with my JX, even after a D-550 and a Matrix-1000 joined
    the family.
    
    As the source of most of the technical talk in note 544, I'm not
    sure just what kind of advice you're looking for beyond "buy some
    patches from the back pages of Keyboard".  As I mentioned in 544,
    the JX comes preprogrammed with a lot of "golly gee whiz" sounds
    that don't really exploit its "fat analog" potential.  Taking full
    advantage of the latter requires you to roll up your sleeves and
    get in there and program, unless you can find a source of patches
    where somebody else has already done just that.  And yes, I *am*
    willing to share some of my own patches, but that will require
    an empty M64-C cartridge or an MC-500 MRB-500 librarian disk.
              
    So, good price, great box.
    
    len.
    

	The mks70, as stated earlier is a very good box.  A friend of mine that 
has one was playing my Oberheim Matrix-6R one night and as he went through the
patches, he was saying "I have that sound on my MKS70" on nearly every patch.
A few days later I heard them, and by golly, they were nearly identical.  

	I say this becausae I rate Oberheim as the king of analog sounds and if
the MKS can get as nice an analog sound as an oberheim, its gets a thumbs up 
from me.  The main advantage I noted (although there's probably more than that) 
is that you get more polyphony in the Roland (12 voices versus 6 in the 
Oberheim M6).  Both units are bi-timbral.  The main advantage over the MKS70 
(from what I can see) is the user-assignable modulation routings on the M6.

	Both are no longer in production, btw.

	Dan

this is interesting.  i am saving for 2 matrix-1000s.  my goal is to have good
analog sound with the ability to have two different patches playing.  i also
would like many patches without having to do mucho programming.  it sounds like i
i want the matrix-1000s still.  would an mks-70 fit my bill?  what would you do
with similar goals in mind.  i read lens treatise on the JX-10.  are they
the same boxes? would i get two different patches with 6 polyphony each with
the mks-70? (with the patches being good sounds, not threadbare sounds).

thanks

chad

RE < Note 2050.3 by NORGE::CHAD "Ich glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tte" >

	Although Len would be best equipped (snicker) to handle your question,
I would venture to say that if money is a factor in your decision, go with the
MKS70.  While it doesn't have as many onboard patches, I'd bet it would have 
plenty of third-party interest.  Check out the back of Keyboard to confirm.

	Dan

    Yes, an MKS-70 is a JX-10 in a box.
    
    The Matrix-1000 has considerably more modulation flexibility than
    the MKS-70/JX-10, but otherwise the architectures are largely
    equivalent in capability.  And yes, "half" a JX-10 can produce quite
    fat sounds.  I very often use my JX-10 in the bitimbral mode.
    
    I'll concur with the advice - an MKS-70 for a tad more than a
    Matrix-1000 definitely tilts the bias towards the MKS-70.
    
    len.
    

    Greetings, it me again,
    
    thanks for all your input, I just picked up a MKS-50 for $249 new.
    While the MKS-70 was what I would have liked to have, the 249 vs.
    299 had a major impact on my decision. I needed some "classic" Roland
    type analog sounds to compliment my dx and d-10  and the MKS-50
    seems to fit the bill real well.
    
    Can anybody recommend a good 3rd party patch source, mabey someone
    you've bought from with good results before??
    
    Thanks again,
    

    I just got one of the blowout MKS70s ... and got a very pleasant
    surprise!  Included in the box were two �" cables, a MIDI cable, and
    and M-64C!  I never had any idea that these things would be included.

    Is this standard fare, or just an attempt to make up for the manuals
    (the one for the MKS70 is worst I've seen yet - bleah!).

-b

My D50 had an audio cable and a MIDI cable as well as a ROM card with the
presets so I can always replace them and not lose them (unlike other brands
where if you don't back them up yourself or your cassette tape dies...).

My MT32 came with two audio cables and a MIDI cable.

The Roland Audio cables I've gotten had �" jack on one end and RCA on the other
*with* a RCA--�" adapter -- to satisfy both those who go into home stereos with
their stuff and into �.

Chad 

    Yeah, it *was* pretty typical of Roland to provide cables with their
    units.  They don't seem to do this anymore.
    
    My JX-10 (MKS-70 w/keyboard) came with an M16-C (useful for storing
    sequences only) rather than an M64-C.
    
    The Roland 1/4" to RCA cable with RCA to 1/4" adaptor is a nice cable,
    I've got about a half dozen of them (lots of Roland gear over the
    years).   Their MIDI cables are also nicely made.
                                                                      
    len.

                       -< Cheaper as time went on..??? >-

    Really?? I got _both_ the M16-C and the M64-C, but that was a little
    after they first came out (I got mine in October of '86).
    
    Gee, it musta really been killin' the profits to include both,huh?
    :^{

    I'm encountering a *real* bizarre problem with my recently acquired
    Super JX ... some note-ons 'appear' to never receive the corresponding
    note-offs.  This happens with factory patches F2 and G2 (but not, I
    believe, with H2).  F2 uses tone 66, G2 uses 65 (H2 uses 66). All
    are bass-type tones.  ??? 

    The patches are SPLIT mode patches.  When I play the right-side split,
    the unit plays fine.  But when I play the bass side of the split, every
    3rd/4th note "sticks".  For example, B and C (octave below middle) play
    fine, but C# and D 'stick' - Eb and E play fine, but F and F# stick,
    etc. Now, the WEIRD thing is that the problem STOPS when I put the unit
    in any mode other than SPLIT. 

    Did I get a bogus unit?  I'm beginning to wonder if the blasted thing
    doesn't simply have a buggy o/s.  I can't believe that a hardware
    problem could cause this (but try me ... I'll listen to anything at
    this point). 

    An aside - the MIDI light stays on whenever a note sticks, even
    though there's no incoming MIDI data.  Very strange indeed.

-b

    Brad - I remember once having a similar problem, and it was because
    the keyboard was in some inappropriate mode - it might have been
    something related to local mode interacting with notes being sent
    out and returned via the sequencer.  I remember thinking at the
    time that the JX had gone south and how could they ship something
    with a bug this obvious and unpleasant.
    
    I don't remember the details, but let me assure you the JX is rock solid,
    and any problems you may appear to have are almost certainly a
    consequence of the machine's almost byzantine and poorly documented
    complexity.
    
    I'll poke around this weekend and see if I can come with any more
    specific advice.
    
    Is this a JX-10 or an MKS-70 we're talking about?  It sounds like
    an MKS-70; the JX-10 doesn't have a MIDI light.  If it works the
    same way as on the MKS-80, the light stays on as long as a NOTE
    ON is outstanding, i.e., until the corresponding NOTE OFF arrives.
    
    len.
      

    It's an MKS-70.  It's amazing to me that something that's supposedly
    'out-of-date' can sound so good.  With this thing and my (also
    out-of-date) Oberheim, I may not even *need* my Proteus (which still
    hasn't come in )-8 . 

    'Byzantine and poorly documented complexity' is a bloody
    understatement.  Documentation, indeed. 

    For what it's worth, I have ONLY a MIDI in coming into the machine
    (coming from an ESQ1), and I can guarantee that the note off *IS*
    arriving (MIDI monitor).  The JX is simply ignoring it. 

    Thanks for anything you can find out.

-b

    The MKS-70's software is a bit different from the JX-10's (e.g.,
    it doesn't have to scan the keyboard, and it can accept SysEx messages
    to alter programmable parameters in real time), so it's possible
    that the MKS-70 has unique, uhm, "features" not shared by the JX-10.
    
    len.
    

    Well, I found the problem - if you're in SPLIT mode and both 'sides' of
    the SPLIT are receiving on the same MIDI channel, the lower split
    becomes hosed.  I still think it's a bug, but since I don't intend to
    use SPLIT mode, the point is moot. 

-b

    re .15 - that's clearly a bug - the whole point of a split is to
    be able to receive on the same channel and select the SGU based
    on note number.
    
    Does it happen all the time, whenever the MKS-70 is in split mode?
    The JX-10 works fine in split mode as a receiver.
    
    len.
    

    I've not tried setting up a split with patches other than 65/66 in the
    lower half of the JX.  However, there is another factory patch that has
    a split (I don't remember the number) and I don't recall this problem
    rearing its ugly head. 

    I intend to give that a whirl this evening.  This is sure strange.

-b

    This leads me to suspect that there's some parameter set in those
    patches that is interacting with the "splitness" that's causing
    the problem.  Have you looked at the rest of the patch parameters
    and compared them to those for some other split patch that's not
    causing the problem?  Don't forget the MIDI parameters.
    
    len.
    

    I played with this a great deal the last few evenings.  Turns out
    that the problem is relegated ONLY to:

	1. SPLIT mode with both TONES on same MIDI channel
	2. TONE B (lower tone)
	3. any patch as TONE B
	4. ONLY in split range where TONE A is not played

    4 is a bit strange ... the JX allows overlapping splits.  For example:

       TONE B
    |.............|  TONE A
	    |......................|

    ^^^^^^^^ only these notes exhibit the problem, and then it's only every
    3rd & 4th note.

    If any of the above 4 conditions are not met, the problem does not
    occur. 

    I called Roland, and after lots of telephone tag and talking to real
    bozos (and I mean *bozos*), I got a pointer from my service technician
    about a guy named Mike in service.  This guy reminded me of an Ensoniq
    tech (well informed, polite, and knowledgable). 

    We spent probably a half hour on the phone trying different things,
    after which he simply said "I don't have the slightest idea - no one's
    ever reported this before".  Either way, he's sending me an upgrade ROM
    (1.05, mine's at 1.03) and a service manual for free.

    Does anyone out there have a SuperJX or MKS70?  I'd be interested to
    see what factory patches F2 and G2 do to you in the lower register.
    Len, did you try this on your JX-10?

-b

PS - you can determine your current software rev on the MKS70 by powering
     up while holding down the VALUE button.  Don't know if it works on
     the JX-10 or not.

    I haven't tried this on my JX-10 but with the details you have provided
    I'll give it a shot tonight.  I'm not likely to be able to reply
    until Friday though, so be patient.
    
    len.
    

    I've experienced the same thing. Bass tones on the lower sides of
    splits. Only certain notes stick & when they do, the unit won't see
    a patch change command - the only way I could find to un-stick it was
    to manually enter a new patch from the front panel. When I discovered
    this, I took the unit (Brand new) back and exchanged it for another
    (New & sealed). Got home.....   ....same thing. Brad, I did find that
    the problem vanished when I used another controller (Guitar or Akai
    MX73). It only did it with the ESQ-1. Are you using the ESQ-1 you
    got from me or is it another?
    
    On the subject of bizarre-ness, I recently obliterated my M64-C for
    the mks70. I tried to load in a bank of sounds from genpatch and got
    no results. Akll indications looked fine but the new data just wasn't 
    there. I noticed on the screen it said "64-C" in paraentheses, so I
    tried it again but this time, I turned off the protect on the catridge.
    Vaporized it! :-(     Not only lost the patches, but erased the
    jx10 format. Now, the unit won't even see the cartridge, pretty
    depressing, I've got other sounds & a pg800 but no way, short of
    manually writing parameters (ouch) to store. Any ideas on resurecting
    a cartridge or using genpatch with it?
    
    Regards, Scott
    

    Man, that's *weird*.  I've been using the ESQ that I got from you that
    I gave to a friend that he let me borrow back for a few months {slap!}.
    Sorry. 

    Anyway, I'll plug in my KX76 again tonight and give it a go.  I
    can't imagine that there would be any difference.  Hmmmm ......

    As for the cartridge, I can't help you there.  Len, is there something
    special that needs to be done to format an M64C cartridge for the JX? 

-b

    Well, I tried it again last night with a KX5 ... same problem. The
    problem is not limited to bass tones in the lower split.  It is a
    problem with SPLIT mode becoming brain damaged.  This is a definite
    bug.  I'm supposed to be getting the new ROM 'any day now', and will se
    if this fixes the problem. 

    Len's analogy of a beatiful woman with a permanent zit is ringing ever
    true ... 

-b

	Just a warning about KX5's. A friend of mine found that certain
	early KX5's send some extra MIDI bytes & some keyboards don't
	work with them (the Ensoniq EPS for example - He sent both the
	KX5 and his EPS to Ensoniq & they pointed fingers at the KX5.
	A later model KX5 worked fine). The problem KX5 worked fine on my
	CZ-101, ESQ-1 and MT-32 (strange stuff).
							Jens

    Yup - this one spits out garbage at power-up.  The JX ignores it. 
    But thanx for the warning.

-b

    The way you format an M64-C for JX-10 use is to simply repeat the
    operation until it works (I think the third time's the charm). 
    Don't remove the cartridge after you get the error message, just
    reenter the same sequence of button pushes.  This *is* actually
    explained in the manual, but in typical Roland pidgin English.
    
    len.
     

    Well, it looks like I'm outta luck.

    Roland mailed me a service manual for the MKS70 and the latest ROM
    upgrade (v1.05, released in 1988).  The service manual is worse than
    their user manuals (part of this one is in Japanese), and the ROM did
    nothing to alleviate the problem.

    I called Roland back to file a formal bug complaint, and got a tech on
    the line who responded, "boy - that's a *stupid* setup - why do you
    have both tones on the same channel?".  When I mentioned that *some*
    synths can only transmit on one channel, LIKE YOUR D50, he himmed and
    hawed around, then put me on hold.  I was eventually transferred to a
    'product specialist' who was "really busy, man - can I call you back?"
    Sure, you *can* ... but *WILL* you? 

    He never did.  I finally called back and griped, and was told point
    blank that they have no intention of registering my gripe *or* fixing
    the problem, and that I'd just have to "live with it".  Nice guys.  If
    their gear didn't sound so darn good, it wouldn't be as difficult to
    decide what to do (blow that puppy up).  Grrr. 

    In another vein, does anyone know of alternate patches for the JX10?
    The factory patches are *very* lame, and I'd like to see what else is
    available before I roll up my sleeves and write my own.  Does Roland
    offer alternate patches for free (like they do for other synths)?

-b

    Yep, that's Roland.  Some of the folks you get on the phone are real
    helpful, and some of them obviously have better things to do than
    talk to customers who've bought Roland equipment.
    
    Anyway, I *do* have some alternative JX-10 patches.  If you have
    an MC-500, I can send you a disk.  I think I have a JX-10 handshake
    laying around someplace so you won't ned the librarian software.
    
    len.