Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Daddy's in Nashua had an A-80.  Don't know if they still have it.

Chad

    I don't know much, but here's what I've heard...
    
    A-80  -  88 key {Roland piano feel - I forgot the number} poly after
    touch, 4 assignable zones, bouko patches for routing, definable
    sensitivity for each zone, free mapping of any zone to any OUT.
    
    And the A-50 (it is the A-50) simply has 76 keys of the synth type
    (like the D-50) but also poly aftertouch.  Both I believe have
    programmable panic buttons to send note offs or whatever when your
    system goes haywire.
    
    I don't know how much they are, but I think (from the patches I
    played with) that everything's extremely flexible.
    
    --mike--

    I meant paths, not patches, although it does have all routing and
    controlling data stored in a lotta PATCHES.
    
    db, kinda like powering up your ESQ and pressing one button, for
    $2,000 dollars more, I guess.
    
    (add another 2 for an MC-500 II)

>    db, kinda like powering up your ESQ and pressing one button, for
>    $2,000 dollars more, I guess.
    
    Yes.  I've had a brief look at the UNIT, but not at the literature.
    
    It looks like it's pretty close to the ultimate in keyboard
    controllers.
    
    One feature that I believe it does that I have often wished my
    ESQ did was the ability to do MIDI merge.  I've surmised that
    it has this ability because, if I recall correctly, it had
    several MIDI ins despite the fact that it is not an SGU.
    
    What's the advantage.
    
    It means that you can plug ALL your controllers directly into the
    A-80 and then have *ONE* MIDI cable running to your rack.  (I suspect
    that a lot of us have either a clumsy MIDI merge box that gets put
    near the keyboards or we run several MIDI cables to the rack and
    having something like a MX-8 routing and merging the signals.
    
    The A-80 is definitely part of my "ideal" gigging rig.
    
    I think my ideal rig is:
    
    	Controllers:
    
    		Roland A-80
    			mainly for system control and weighted action
    			controller
    
    		Ensoniq SQ-80 
    
    			for sequencer and non-weighted action controlller
    			Probably would NOT use as SGU.
    
    		Casio CZ-101
    
    			Surprise!  For use as a spare keyboard when
    			it's not practice to do things with just two
    			keyboards.  As a spare MIDI controller, it's
    			simply the best value by far.
    
    	Rack:
    
    		Roland PKS-30 (Digital Piano)
    		
    		Ensoniq VFX (for general purpose synth)
    
    		Emu Proteus
    
    		Roland S-550 (probably wouldn't get used much
    
    		Kawai MX-8R mixer (noisey but cheap, small & light) or gigging)
    
    		Rack-mounted power supply (preferably with ground lift,
    			EMI filter and surge protection)
    
    Amp:
    
    		Roland JC-120
    
    Note, no signal processors.  Reverb and chorus on JC-120 are all I
    need for gigging.

< Note 2030.4 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Conliberative" >

>    I think my ideal rig is:


	Well, I think mine would be:

	Sequencer/Sampler:			EPS-m
	
		o  320,000 note capacity
		o  Auto-mix

	Synthesizer/Controller:			VFX

		o  Keyboard much improved
		o  Great voice architecture

	Controller:				A-80

		o  Very nice poly-everything
	
	Drums: (to free up the sampler's duty)	R-8

		o Yes

	On top of that, I'd get maybe two Quadreverbs and that new Tascam
MM-1 mixer in a rack.  

	That's all.

--mikie_at_least_I_don't_want_it_all_anymore--

RE: .0

Does the PF15 have local off?  If so, how about looking into something like
the Voyce LX9?  This is an often overlooked controller box.  It has lots
of real nice performance features.  It's not too expensive (<= $350, I think,
last time I looked, which was a *long* time ago).  I wrote something on it
in the Oberheim controller (Perfx, etc) note.  Send me a note if you want
more info, or a demo, or whatever....

andy

    So what's the buzz on prices for the A80/A50?  List would be fine,
    but list *and* quotes would be better.

-b

Ok this reply is not really about the Roland controllers, but it IS the most
recent discussion about controllers, so...

Has anyone heard about a new Korg controller called the T1 or something like 
that? It is supposed to be like an M1 with 88 keys, more memory, etc.

Mike D.

	I don't know, but I don't think I'd like 88 *synth* keys...
That's better for piano-feel.  I DO love the Korg pitch/mod...

--mikie--

    re: old "A70" title
    
    I changed the base note name to replace the incorrect A70 reference
    with the proper A50 reference.
    
    re: .6
    
    >>> Does the PF15 have local off?  
    
    Yes, but not in the normal sense. The hack I use is to put a dummy
    headphone load in (to shut off the internal speakers), don't plug
    anything into the local audio outs, and run the MIDI out to my 1000PX
    MIDI in.  Then the 1000PX audio outs go to the mixer. 
    
    >>> If so, how about looking into something like the Voyce LX9?  This
    >>> is an often overlooked controller box.  It has lots of real nice
    >>> performance features.  It's not too expensive (<= $350, I think,
    >>> last time I looked, which was a *long* time ago).  I wrote
    >>> something on it in the Oberheim controller (Perfx, etc) note.  
    >>> Send me a note if you want more info, or a demo, or whatever....
    
    I'll look up the old note but I'm sure an updated features list/review
    would be welcome here.  Unfortunately, I'd like to have aftertouch
    (preferably poly/key, not just channel) which means that another
    box-without-keys may not fit the bill.  Does it have pitch/mod wheels
    or levers?  If I could get everything BUT the aftertouch for lots
    cheaper, I might go for it.  Thanks for the pointer.
    
    - John -

>    >>> Does the PF15 have local off?  
>    
>    headphone load in (to shut off the internal speakers), don't plug
>    anything into the local audio outs, and run the MIDI out to my 1000PX

So, as I understand it, there is no sound in the PF15 that you use it this
rig; you use it strictly for key info.  Now, re: next bit, does it send
any aftertouch info?  If not, then I think the LX is right out.
    
>    would be welcome here.  Unfortunately, I'd like to have aftertouch
                               ^^^^^^^^^^^ (aftertouch is great, ain't it?)
>    (preferably poly/key, not just channel) which means that another
>    box-without-keys may not fit the bill.  Does it have pitch/mod wheels
>    or levers?  If I could get everything BUT the aftertouch for lots
>    cheaper, I might go for it.  Thanks for the pointer.

It's basically a box that supports 2 MIDI ins and 9 outs.  It will selectively
pass on bend, mod, and aftertouch info to any of the 9 channels.  BUT, the
keyboard that drives it (connected to one of the ins; the other is for
Sequencer) has to have the wheels or the touch.  Bummer.  I think I've led you
down the garden path, as they say.... 8^(  I mean, it's a great little
controller box.  I drive it with my DX7/E!, which has local off, wheels, and
sends aftertouch info.

Well, depending on what you buy next, it may still be of use...

andy

A previous reference to the KORG T1 -

I'll start a different note soon (unless someone already has) but here is what I know about the T1 from
discussions with KORG tech. support and Daddy's here in Nashua:

Daddy's Price: $3995

88-note weighted keyboard, channel aftertouch (same as SG1XD)
M1 architecture with 8Mb (twice that of the M1) sounds
50,000+ notes sequencer & a few additional features
8x40 line LCD (some type of grahic editing???)
M1 PCM and Program card support
3.5" floppy drive (HD) for sequences, patches, AND new Samples
1Mb RAM for samples (supports MIDI Sample Dump Standard)
Master Keyboard type support (keyboard zones, different tracking, etc.)
Multiple MIDI Outs

Quoting September availability.

Yes, I am probably looking to buy one...

	- Jim

    I finally found a music store within driving distance of the house
    yesterday that carries something other than trumpets!  (Well, is 80
    miles driving distance?) 

    Anyway, they had *lots* of the more popular controllers on display,
    so I thought I'd post my brief opinions here.  I played the following
    controllers/boards:

    YAMAHA:	KX76, KX88, V50
    ROLAND:	A50, A80
    KURZWEIL:	MIDIboard, K1000
    OBERHEIM:	Xk, Matrix6
    KORG:	DSS1, M1, Sampling Grand

    My favorite controllers were no surprise - MIDIboard was by far the
    best weighted controller, both in terms of features and *especially*
    touch.  Synth controller was (of course) the KX76, not so much for
    features but for touch.

    My "worst list" was what really surprised me ... the 3 lousiest
    controllers were the two Roland controllers and the Yamaha V50. Sure,
    the Roland units have nifty features, but their touch is *terrible*. In
    fact, there was not a non-weighted keyboard in the store that felt
    *worse* than the A50 (including the Xk and Matrix6).  The K1000
    keyboard felt, IMO, superior to the A80, which was *very* mushy, had a
    very inconsistent travel, and a very short throw. 

    And I thought that technology was *improving*.  It seems that the old
    boards (MIDIboard, KX88, Sampling Grand) are still the best. 

    I realize that touch is a very subjective thing, but I never expected
    to find what I did doing A/B testing. 

-b

I once spent about an hour walking between an A80 (Roland) and an SG1-D piano
by Korg.  I hated the A80, and liked the SG1-D.  I couldn't for the life of me
explain why, though, so I found your description interesting.  If they had been
closer than 20 feet apart, perhaps I could have A/B'ed them more easily.

'Tis a pity.  The A80 is the only controller with the features I really want.
It has a Sysex buffer for sending init messages to devices that you want in
special modes.  The visible zoning and velocity curve editing is nice, too.

	Eirikur  (Living with my Xk, which I have gotten used to.)

re .13, .14

I concur. I absolutely hate the actions of both the A80 and A50. The A80 is
much too sluggish and stiff--nothing like a real piano, IMO. The A50 
(synth-type) action is also horrible--though I can't really put my finger on
why. It just simply "doesn't feel right". I agree that the Korg Sampling Grand
has a great action, and as far as synth-type actions, I like the M1. Never
tried any of the KX series. Too bad Korg (Yamaha?) couldn't come up with a 
controller that had features comparable to the Roland (or Kurzweil MIDIboard) 
units. The only thing I don't like about the Kurzweil MIDIboard is that you
can't get it with a joystick pitch/mod controller (like the Korg, or the 
Roland). 

Generally, given the choice, I'd rather have the feel I want rather than the 
extra features. But I don't think I should have to choose one or the other. 
Someday someone will get it right, I hope.

Mike D

    A friend of mine who owns a D50 (and used to own a DX7) and I hashed
    this out Friday ... we compared the D50 to the KX5 and the KX76 (and
    even my old Rhodes and my Sohmer upright). 

    It seems that Roland keyboards *definitely* have less throw (travel)
    than a normal keyboard.  I'll try to describe it graphically: 


    ^	0  ------> key-up position
    |	1  ------> trigger point on most kybds
    |	2  ------> trigger point on Roland, pressure begin on most kybds
    |	3
    |	4  ------> pressure begin on Roland
    |	5  ------> max key-throw on Roland
    |	6
    v	7  ------> max key-throw on most kybds

    Obviously, pressure doesn't apply to the Rhodes or Sohmer, but it is
    interesting that the key travel distances are so markedly different. I
    had a very difficult time attempting to play the 1000PX piano from the
    D50, simply because the key-throw and velocity curves were so
    non-standard. 

-b

    re. 16
    
    Brad:
    
    	I am sure you already know this, but the KURZWEIL 1000 modules
    can automagically "configure" themselves to match your controlling
    keyboards characteristics (including key travel).  If you are unaware
    of this feature, holler...I'll look it up for you.
    
    	BTW, I just received the new manual for the K1000PX.  I have
    not had a chance to review it but will try to do so before long,
    and put some comments here (if people are interested).
    
    Clusters,
    Bill Allen

    Sure do know, Bill.  In fact, I've changed the velocity map to better
    suit my touch (and preserve my controller!).  Thanx for the pointer,
    though. 

-b

                      <<< Note 2030.17 by MUSKIE::ALLEN >>>
>BTW, I just received the new manual for the K1000PX.
    
    .. is that the new rackmount-with-a-keyboard unit ?
    
    karl

    re: .1?
    
    Just a brief rebuttal and addition to the "there's no accounting for
    taste" argument.  I spent a great deal of time recently deciding what
    to buy as a master controller.  I quickly narrowed the choices to the
    MIDIboard and the A-80 since I decided (somewhat arbitrarily bu based
    on personal preference) that 88 keys and poly/key aftertouch were
    required features.
    
    Well guess what... I bought the A-80 (am I the first COMMUSICer with
    one?).  I prefer the touch to the MIDIboard.  Of course, I learned to
    play piano on a spinet with an extremely light action.  It seemed to me
    that the key throw on the MIDIboard was shorter than on the A-80. 
    Also, I thought the rebound on the A-80 was superior to the MIDIboard.
    This view was independently acquired by my brother who (1) is a much
    better pianist than me and (2) learned to play on the same piano.
    
    I wonder how much difference there is between varying A-80s and
    MIDIboards.  Given a room full of them, would this be like choosing an
    acoustic guitar where I have spent hours with 3 similar instruments
    (including two of the same model number) and found one that had that
    "something special".
    
    Not that I really want to justify my extravagant purchases or
    anything.  Just thought I'd bring up the opposing point fo view.
    
    - John -

    Does anyone know where I can buy a velocity map of Boston?

RE: .20

    I'm beginning to wonder the same thing, John.  I remember a few years
    back playing a MIDIboard, and thought the touch was lousy.  Now this
    last one felt great.  The K1000 that I played earlier last week felt
    okay, but one at Daddy's several months ago (remember, db?) felt really
    nasty. 

    I can't imagine there being that much difference, although your
    "findings" almost directly contradict mine.  Well, perhaps I'll get to
    play another KX88 this week ... if it turns out that there is a
    significant difference between controllers of the same make/model, I
    won't be buying a one mail order - you can count on that. 

-b

re: 20

I recently went through a thorough search for a keyboard controller also.
I've been playing piano for years, mostly on an upright, so I was looking for
good piano action.  I didn't feel that poly aftertouch was a requirement. My
conclusion was that the A80 was definitely the best, but too expensive.  I
opted for the KX88, which I thought was a excellent compromise for
price/performance.  The KX88 doesn't have as many MIDI features as the A80,
but the keyboard feel is very good, and that's what is most important to me.

I tried the MIDIboard, and had the same reaction - not enough depth, and too
clacky, if I remember correctly.  I also tried (and quickly discounted) the
Kawai M8000, which was much too springy, especially on the release.

Jim

None of the KX88s, MIDIboards, *or* A80s I've tried feel much like a real piano.
I'd probably buy the A80 if I had 10^6 money.

Chad

    follow-up on .20-.24
    
    I should have mentioned that I bought my A-80 at E.U. Wurlitzer in
    Worcester (sort of a parting gift to Eddie Fritz).  I bought it as part
    of a "package" for less than $2000.  To put it in perspective, the
    total amount I spent was ~$2850US so the A-80 was the principal item in
    the package.  Just a point of reference for you shoppers out there.
    
    I'd also add that the A-80 does sound funny if you play it without
    accompanying noise/music.  I'm not sure what a piano without strings
    would sound like (maybe Tom knows) but you hear lots of dull thumps as
    the key bottoms out.  Nowhere near as annoying as playing an Octapad
    without accompanying drum noises but it still gets quite a reaction if
    you're playing the "piano" with headphones and the others in the
    vicinity try to figure out what's going on.  (The MIDIboard also
    exhibits funny noises of the keys but it's probably different.)
    
    Some day, someone will sample these artifacts and use them in a futile
    gesture of their talent.  Maybe I should get a sampler and do this as
    concept art before the Library of Congress is full of these types of
    things.
    
    - John -
    
    P.S.  I should put this in the Kurzweil 1000PX note but since it's
    	  related, I'll put it here.  Nice story:  I go to all the trouble
    	  to get a poly/key aftertouch keyboard, fire it up, and guess
    	  what... no response.  The built-in MIDIscope shows key pressure
    	  events getting sent to the 1000PX but they're not doing anything. 
    	  Luckily the 1000PX is still under warranty.  Word to the wise... try
    out all esoteric features while your stuff is still under warranty.

        <<< Note 2030.25 by XERO::ARNOLD "LISP lets you rationalize" >>>
    
>no response.  The built-in MIDIscope shows key pressure
>events getting sent to the 1000PX but they're not doing anything. 
>Luckily the 1000PX is still under warranty.  
    
    John, though I only have MONO aftertouch available on the KX88, my
    strong impression is that only a few of the 1000PX' patches are set up
    to respond to aftertouch.

    re .21 - I've seen velocity maps of Boston on the morning news;
    they show things like
    
    	route 90 (Mass Pike) - 45 mph
    	route 495 - 53 mph
    	route 93 - 27 mph
    	route 128 - 4 mph
    
    len.
    

    Har har.

    Anyway, the 1000PX does NOT respond to poly touch on all patches (there
    are a few labelled PPres or something that do). 

    I still think it's bloody strange that people's opinions are so
    inconsistent.  Remember the old COMMUSIC comparisons of many years ago
    (drums machines and reverbs come to mind)?  Might be interesting to get
    a group together and do some controller comparisons. 

-b

Wurlie's tells me I can configure the A80 any way I want it with regards to
key travel and such.  I'm not sure I believe that, but I DO believe that each
keyboard will be different.  After all, guitars and basses are set up in the
shop and the action may be VERY different for two copies of the same model.
I have always found this frustrating in doing comparisons, as I don't count
myself sophisticated enough to be able to isolate that variable and dimiss
its influence on my perceptions.


				Mark

    The drum machine and reverb comparisons were reasonably practical
    because the boxes were portable and we had a representative sample.
    Also, the comparisons were easily done - just play the same patterns
    on the drum machines, or run the same signals through the reverbs.
    Then everybody could draw their own conclusions from a tape.
    
    Controllers are a bit more of a problem.  They require "hands-on"
    evaluation and you'd have to actually be there to get it.
    
    len.
     

    re: the A-80/1000PX Poly Pressure problem a few notes back.
    
    Last night, the 1000PX worked fine when hooked up with the MIDIboard at
    Acton Music.  So, I carted the PX home to take a closer look.
    
    Knowing that the 1000PX worked fine at least once, I concentrated on
    the MIDIscope window to look at exactly what MIDI messages the 1000PX
    was receiving from the A-80.  (They were directly linked MIDI out to
    MIDI in so the 2 units and the cable seem to be the only possible
    culprits.
    
    Well, when I play middle C, the 1000PX gets a note on event for note
    64 (as it should).  When I press down on that key for key pressure,
    however, the NOTE number in the pressure event is 96.  Yes, it's an off
    by 36 error!  I was able to duplicate this for note 21 (on=21,
    PressNote=57), note 23 (on=23, PressNote=59), note 108 (on=108,
    PressNote=16; yes, it wraps around off by 36!).
    
    I can generate this behavior on more than one A-80 patch.  I can find
    NO mention of a hidden ability to have transposed the Pressure Event
    note.  The 1000PX does respond to the pressure event 3 octaves up: I
    played note 60 and note 96 and was able to vary the vibrato on note 96
    by pressing down on note 60 (now that's a useful behavior!).
    
    I'm not excessively well-versed in possible "stuck-at" faults in
    hardware, does anyone have any other possible diagnoses or suggestions. 
    I'd be particularly interested if anyone has seen another A-80 or A-50
    work correctly on Poly Pressure.  (I'd like to know that this is a
    programming error in my patch or an actual A-80 problem.)
    
    Thanks for any clues, guesses, etc.
    
    - John -

    More on the A-80 Poly Pressure extravaganza...

    Apparently, the behavior noted in -.1 is a known bug that is fixed with
    a new RAM.  The lead keyboard tech at Wurlitzer had heard of this and,
    once confirmed that I had an older RAM, ordered a new one from Roland. 
    I report back if/when it's fixed.

    By the way, here's the method for determining which system version an
    A-80 is running.  (This will probably work on an A-50, too but I've
    never tried it.)  NOTE:  This is NOT in the manual.

    	1. Turn off A-80
    	2. Press and the hold the 1st, 3rd, and 4th buttons (left to right)
    	   under the LCD (display).
    	3. Turn on the A-80.
    	4. Release the buttons you've got pressed.
    	   Side effect:  The window will run through a bundle of displays at
    	   this point.  Ignore this and proceed straight to the next step. 
    	   If you wait too long, you'll have to try again.
    	5. Press the CHANNEL button (on the right side of the button bank).

    This should bring up the DIAGNOSTICS menu (undocumented).  The first
    line in this menu will say:

    	DIAGNOSTICS     x version y.zz

    	where X is a letter:  my A-80 says B right now.  (I don't know what
    			this means.)
    	      Y.ZZ is a version number:  my A-80 says 1.02 right now. 
    			According to the keyboard dept. at Wurlitzer in
    			Boston, I need to 1.03 to get the Poly Pressure
    			anomoly fixed.

    There are some menu choices here but I was warned by Wurlitzer folk not
    to touch anything at this point: "just power down the machine". 
    There's some text about saving the user's RAM on a RAM card so I bet
    the most damage you can do is blow away your programs.  If I ever
    decide to fiddle with this menu (after a backup) I'll report the
    results here.

    - John -
    

>    There are some menu choices here but I was warned by Wurlitzer folk not
>    to touch anything at this point: "just power down the machine". 
>    There's some text about saving the user's RAM on a RAM card so I bet
>    the most damage you can do is blow away your programs.  If I ever
>    decide to fiddle with this menu (after a backup) I'll report the
>    results here.

	Looks like it's time to mosey on down to Guitar Center and check
	out an A-80's diagnostics...purely for educational purposes, you
	understand... 

    ...update on the poly-pressure off by 36 error... (see previous notes)
    
    - Got system updated to version 1.03
    - Problem not solved
    - Wurlitzer asked if I wanted to call Roland direct rather than play
    	telephone tag.  This, I did.
    - Talked to a person at Roland who had found the same problem.  "That's
    	fixed in the 1.04 update."  There also is some sort of "turbo
    	touch" update to improve the sensitivity of the pressure features
    	(channel and poly aftertouch).
    - 1.04 chips will be sent directly to me with installation
    	instructions.  If I'm not brave enough to put them in myself, I can
    	take the A-80 back to Wurlitzer for free (warranty) installation.
    
    More as the story unfolds.  Note that although this is taking a while,
    most of that has been due to my lack of time to follow through on
    getting the thing to Wurlitzer and back.  I've been pleased with
    Wurlitzer and Roland's sincerity in getting this resolved.  (I just
    don't know why the product shipped with this bug in the first place.)
    
    - John -

    Same reason we shipped the first RA81's and IBM shoipped their first
    PC's.......... Marketing Pressure.

I'm going to have to give the A80 another try.  It looks like it's the only
controller out there with wooden keys (correct me if I'm wrong).

I tried the Fatar Studio88+ Monday night, and found it smooth and consistent
but a bit light in the action, plus it's all-plastic keys (I doubt they'll
last long).  The Studio88+ has pitch and modulation knobs and more MIDI
functionality than the Studio88, and is also $400 more ($1.3K vs. $900).

People were ragging on the A80 earlier, and I had mixed feelings from several
different times of trying one at different stores (they may have been set up
differently).

I do not wish to hold off much longer than January, but if anyone knows of any
other controllers down the road I'd love to hear about them.


				Mark

    � I'm going to have to give the A80 another try.  It looks like it's the
    � only controller out there with wooden keys (correct me if I'm wrong).
    
    I have no idea if the keys are really wooden.  Certainly there is no
    wood showing from the outside.  The white/black plastic covering covers
    even the edges (unlike the real real piano I play at my mother's
    house).  Certainly the keys don't feel "hollow" like many synth keys
    (e.g., the Korg PolySix I have).  I would bet that wood or not, they
    are most solid and better weighted than many controllers available.
    
    Mark: If we can arrange a demo time at my house that is mutually
    convenient, you could play my A-80 for awhile (bring your own SGU if
    you want) in a non-store atmosphere.
    
    - John -
    
    P.S.  I'm still waiting for the v1.04 upgrade to get Poly Pressure to
    work right!  If you buy one, DON'T lug it home from the shop until they
    get it up to v1.04.
    

    Hooray!  When I got home yesterday, the new ROM chips had been
    delivered by the UPS man.  Last night, I followed the instructions to
    replace the chips myself and Poly Pressure works!
    
    So, here are the details in case anyone wants to know...
    
    1) There are 2 chips that comprise the field-replaceable upgrade.  One
    	chip goes on the Main Assembly A board, the other goes on the Main
    	Assembly B board; thus, the A and B chips.
    
    2) The "A" chip I got was labelled the same as the one already in my
    	A-80.  The handwritten label says A-80 - A - v1.02.  Following the
    	advice of the Roland tech I spoke with, I didn't even bother
    	replacing it.  I guess this means I've got a spare.
    
    3) The "B" chip was labelled A-80 - B - v1.04.  This replaced the 1.03
    	chip that had replaced the 1.02 chip.
    
    Other tidbits...
    
    a.	I'm pretty sure the keys AREN'T really wood.  They're definitely
    	weighted like wooden keys but while I had the unit open, I felt
    	around under the keys to see if there was wood under the plastic
    	outercoat.  The keys seem solid but I could find no obvious sign of
    	tree-like material.  Still, it's the feel that matters to me, not
    	the material.
    
    b.	The v1.04 upgrade instructions are dated Sept. 21, 1989.  The text
    	says something about chip A being a v1.02 and Chip B at v1.1 but
    	there's no evidence that v1.04 isn't the latest.  (Since that's
    	what is in the bag and since that is what the Roland tech told me I
    	needed.)
    
    c.	The instructions mention a "Turbo mod" for improving the
    	sensitivity of the aftertouch on A-50s.  (I don't know how this
    	would affect A-80s.)  Apparently, it takes more pressure to
    	activate channel or poly pressure on the A-50 than some people find
    	comfortable.  There is a reference to a resistor number to change
    	and the new value.  I think the resistor change goes from 5.6K to
    	10K ohms.  If anyone really wants to know I can look it up for sure.
    
    
    So, now I'm happy with Roland's response and Wurlitzer's response to
    the problem I had.  I hooked it up to my 1000PX and got no prssure,
    channel pressure, and poly pressure to work correctly.  Now I can start
    to look for other bugs!
    
    - John -

During Thanksgiving, I got a chance to play around with my sister-in-law's 
Roland RD300S.  The weighted keys and overall feel was as good as I have
run into so far.  I thought the keys were wooden, but I could be mistaken.

I don't know where this unit fits into the overall Roland line.  I think
it lists at about $2500.

Alex

    As a home pianist with a RD300S, I have become quite comfortable with
    the action. I do find that the keys tend to 'stick', though, possibly
    only in cold weather. It's no big deal, just a bit annoying, because
    the keys will suddenly 'give', resulting in notes that sound louder
    than intended. Trapsing up & down the keyboard a few times before
    playing helps to loosen up the action. Anyone else noticed this?

    Greg.

    An update to the "Method to Determine Version" information provided in
    .33.  I found an error in the method I posted way back when and offer
    this as the corrected version.  If anyone's got an A-80 or A-50, I'd
    love to know if this works for you, too, so I can verify that all the
    bugs are out of the procedure.

    On with the show...

*** method for determining which system version an A-80/A-50 is running ***
    NOTE:  This is NOT in the manual.

    	1. Turn off A-80/A-50
    	2. Press and HOLD the 1st, 3rd, and 4th buttons (left to right)
    	   under the LCD (display).
    	3. Turn on the A-80.
    	4. While still holding the 1/3/4 buttons, press and HOLD the
    	   CHANNEL button (on the right side of the patch select button
    	   bank).

    	   Side effect:  The window will run through a bundle of displays at
    	   this point.  Ignore this; it seems to be normal. 

    	5. This should bring up the DIAGNOSTICS menu (undocumented).  
    	   Now, you can release the 1, 3, 4, and CHANNEL buttons.

    The first line in this menu will say:

    	DIAGNOSTICS     x version y.zz

    	where X is a letter:  my A-80 says B right now.  (I believe this is
    		the status of chip B in the A-80/50 chip set.  Note that my
    		A-80 currently has chip A at v1.02 and chip B at v1.04.  I
    		know this because I opened the A-80 and looked at the
    		handwritten labels on the chips.)

    	      Y.ZZ is a version number:  my A-80 says 1.04 right now. 

    There are some menu choices here that can erase your current set up so
    I'd advise (as the menu tells you) backing up your data before pushing
    any buttons except the "R" menu choice (left-most button) which gets
    you out of Diagnostics to the top-level Roland menu). 

    As I recall the DIAGNOSTICS menu choices are:

    R (Roland):	takes you to the user top-level, Roland directory.

    MEMORY:	which does a destructive memory test.  It DOES erase your
    		current programs.  I tried it.  This will bring your
    		machine back to an out-of-the-box, default state.

    ANALOG:	This brings up a menu that lets you see the values change
    		as you move the sliders and lets you see that the buttons
    		on the panel work by displaying their number.  Probably
    		only useful if you're trying to prove that a switch/slider
    		really does work.  Note that the menu says "key" but means
    		button number.  I got no response on the menu at all when I
    		pressed the "real" (piano-ish) keys.

    CARD:	Performs some test on a RAM card.  I don't have a card to
    		test so I didn't try this menu choice.

    One other:	that I can't remember.

    Enjoy! and be careful out there.

    - John -

    re: -.1 (Diagnostics Menu choices)
    
    >>> One other:	that I can't remember.
    
    The elusive 5th menu selection is DISPLAY which runs the LCD display
    through some paces.

    Another saga from the "Roland-nomics" school of human factors in
    documentation...
    
    Background: The A-80 can store SYSEX messages with a patch so that when
    you call up a patch, the SYSEX gets sent out the MIDI out ports.
    
    The A-80 Owner's Manual says in at least 3 places that to "record" the
    Sysex, you must have the SYSEX coming in MIDI in 1.  After many tries,
    no luck.  
    
    So, I get frustrated and desperate and decide to read the teensy-weensy
    little print MIDI implementation notes to figure out how I might be
    able to restore the SYSEX directly figuring this might be a software
    bug.  But there, hidden in the notes in the back of manual, is the
    statement... SYSEX data must come in MIDI in 2.  And, it works!
    
    I know I should be thankful it was documented right SOMEWHERE.  At any
    rate, other A-80 owners should correct their owner's manual
    accordingly.  (Does the A-50 documentation have the same problem?)
    
    Also note that to load the A-80s OWN SYSEX, that sysex must come in on
    MIDI 1 or the A-80 doesn't process it.  (The documentation is correct
    in this instance.)
    
    Rule #1:	A-80 SYSEX to restore A-80 bulk dump:  Use MIDI In 1
    
    Rule #2:	To store SYSEX in a patch:  Use MIDI in 2
    
    - John -

    re: .44
    
    Here at Spit Brook software development there's a tenet of computer
    science that's known as "Jack's Law".
    
    Briefly stated, Jack's law tells us that any information appearing in
    two places is wrong in at least one of them.

RE: 2811 (Jack)
    
    You said you wanted:
    
       1.  76 keys nonweighted
       2.  4/8 Zones
       3.  Channel pressure(Polyphonic aftertouch)
       4.  2 Modulation wheels (very imortant)
    
    Which do you really want in 3, channel (one control for whole keyboard)
    or poly (individual control per key) pressure? 
    
    Assuming that you want poly pressure, there is, to the best of my
    knowledge, no controller available that will give you all these -
    however, the Roland A50 is probably the closest (hence my posting in
    this topic).  Here's the scoop:
    
      Roland A50	 76 synth keys,    4 zones, poly press,  1 wheel
      Yamaha KX76	 76 synth keys,    2 zones, chan press,  1 wheel
    
    There are no other 76 key controllers on the market.  The Roland JX-10
    (no longer made) and the Ensoniq SQ-2 both offer 76 key unweighted
    keyboards, but neither offer poly pressure.
    
    The only keyboard that has more than one mod wheel (that I know of) is
    the Yamaha SY77 (perhaps the 99 does as well), but this is not just a
    controller.
    
    Naturally, you can program any good controller to make it do what you
    want.  For example, while the KX76 has only one pitchbend wheel and one
    mod wheel, it has 4 programmable sliders - since the mod wheel xmits
    only positive values (0-127), you could program a slider to do the same
    thing. 
    
+b

 I'm a little out of my league here but, the Ensoniq VFX lets you change
 the data slider to a real time "controller". The usual change is to
 timber, but I'm guessing it could be mapped to other things. I'm also
 guessing the Ensoniq SQ-2 would have a similar set up. So if you
 want poly and something similar to two wheels with 61 keys, you could go with
 VFX/VFX-sd/SD-1 or if you want the 76 keys without poly, you might
 be able to go to the SQ-2.

 Dave