Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    The problem is going to be finding some standard interchange format.
    Your sequencer software may be able to import/export an ASCII
    representation of a sequence, but that's of use only to others with
    the same software.  I certainly can't do the same with my MC-500 based
    sequences.
    
    len.
    

    My Master tracks pro supports Midifile standard, how about that?
    
    Ken
    

I'd love to swap sequences, but... I use an Alesis MMT-8. Unless you have
the exact same hardware set up that I have, or you happen to live close
by (I'm in Colorado Springs, Colorado) where I can connect my sequencer to
yours & start mine playing while yours is recording, there isn't any simple
way to move the sequences from one place to the other. I do have an ESQ-1,
and the MMT-8 sequences could be moved to the ESQ-1 (basically compatable
with the ESQ-1, SQ-8 or EPS onboard sequencer) but this has proved to be a 
royal pain in the past & I wouldn't do it again unless someone came over &
spent some time helping me.

MIDI sequences everywhere, but not a note on/off to swap.

								Jens

I also use MTP. It supports MIDI files type 0 and type 1.

Another  obvious  problem,   even  if  you  get  the  files  transferred
     correctly,  is that different people  have  different  setups.    A
     sequence recorded using your setup will  need to be modified to run
     on mine - ie.  channel assignments,  patch  changes,  etc.  Even if
     I chose "similar" sounding patches on my setup, it will still sound
     ichy due to differences  in  envelopes  etc.  - it may get the idea
     across, but will not sound optimal.

Now if two  people had the same sequencer/software, modems, and at least
     one multi-timbral instrument in common, then fun could be had.

/Mitch

    Yup, I agree that there would have to be  accompanying text that
    describes the instruments and the "feel" of the piece, however I
    have had my creativity kick-started on occasion by starting off
    a sequence with the SGUs all set to a previous piece..it adds a
    whole new dimensionwhen you hear a bass line played on tubular bells!!
    
    re: .3 I think the issue is very different on h/w sequencers such
    as you have Jens but it is possible on s/w based ones. I read recently
    in Electronic Musician where two Musicians on opposite coasts
    collaborated on a piece in this way, although they did have lots
    of problems as mentioned in Mitch's reply. 
    
    Ken
     

    re .5 re .3 - you can even do this sort of collaboration with hardware
    sequencers if they have the right features - e.g., two folks with
    MC-500 Mk IIs running the S-MRC software can exchange disks to do
    what we used to refer to in the Dreher Twins as "distributed
    arranging".
    
    len (who can now swap sequences with Edd Cote, as long as I boot
    my MC-500 with the *old* software).
    

    ...and len even has the *right* drum machine, an HR-16!!!
    
    Now, if he'd only buy some Yamaha FMs....
    
    Edd

    
>        re .5 re .3 - you can even do this sort of collaboration with hardware
>    sequencers if they have the right features - e.g., two folks with
>    MC-500 Mk IIs running the S-MRC software can exchange disks to do
>    what we used to refer to in the Dreher Twins as "distributed
>    arranging".
 
    Aha!, but can you do it without physically swapping discs. With
    Midifiles I can down from my Mac and send it anywhere on easynet.
    Try that with the U.S. Mail (or Canada Post for that matter).
    
    Ken
    

      I'd be interested in trying to swap disks or files ...

      (I'm curious to see how compatible standard MIDI file formats
       can be).

      I am using PRO-24 - which also has an MIDI file import/export capability.
      (or even PRO-24 files ...)

      Given I'm Atari based, I should be able to put some files on the
      network if anyone would be interested ...

      Most of the songs are entered from various rock scores rather than
      original materials.  Is there a problem sending or sharing online
      copywritten materials?

      Bruce

	"Is there a problem sending or sharing online copywritten materials?"

There certainly is.

On the issue of mismatched setups, I don't see the problem.  If a group of
people are going to collaborate, then they should agree in advance as to
the nature of sounds.  ("Trumpet is program 1 on channel 5")  It isn't so
important that it be the *same* trumpet.  After all, all *real* trumpets don't
sound the same.

If the point is not collaboration (with much back-and-forth exchanging of the
same material), then there is no problem with having to get in and "re-arrange"
the program numbers to match your set-up, as you are going to be doing other
things to it as well, and re-doing the program and channel numbers is small
potatoes.  If you just want to listen to the piece, get an audio tape.

> < Note 1996.10 by DFLAT::DICKSON "twang and toot, not beep or thud" >
> It isn't so
> important that it be the *same* trumpet.  After all, all *real* trumpets don't
> sound the same.

I disagree.  It is important that it be the same trumpet.  After all, it
     is the *same*  note  on/off/velocity/pressure.    All real trumpets
     don't sound (respond) the same,  and  that's why every real trumpet
     note played  is  played with slightly different articulations (note
     on/off/velocity/pressure) and results.

Like I said before, the ideas can be easily transferred, with or without
     identical patches, but  they  won't  sound  optimal.    I'm talking
     slight differences in MIDI signals, which I believe have alot to do
     with "human feel".

> If the point is not collaboration (with much back-and-forth exchanging of the
> same material), then there is no problem with having to get in and "re-arrange"
> the program numbers to match your set-up, as you are going to be doing other
> things to it as well, and re-doing the program and channel numbers is small
> potatoes.

Sounds like a matter of opinion.  I personally  despise  the  details of
     changing channels and patch setups.  I  consider  this  to  be  the
     enemy,  _especially_  if  I'm going to be passing  a  file  between
     collaborators frequently.  If I could load up someone  else's file,
     then simply hit record and get right into the making of music, then
     I'm a happy MIDIiot.

Transmission via modem would be  ideal.    I  can imagine passing a file
     back and forth  several  times in a single day.  Think music, think
     interactive.

/Mitch

>> < Note 1996.10 by DFLAT::DICKSON "twang and toot, not beep or thud" >
>> It isn't so
>> important that it be the *same* trumpet.  After all, all *real* trumpets don't
>> sound the same.

>I disagree.  It is important that it be the same trumpet.  After all, it
>     is the *same*  note  on/off/velocity/pressure.    All real trumpets
>     don't sound (respond) the same,  and  that's why every real trumpet
>     note played  is  played with slightly different articulations (note
>     on/off/velocity/pressure) and results.
>
>Like I said before, the ideas can be easily transferred, with or without
>     identical patches, but  they  won't  sound  optimal.    I'm talking
>     slight differences in MIDI signals, which I believe have alot to do
>     with "human feel".
>

I must agree with the original.  A sequence is like a score and trading it
amongst people with slightly different set-ups is like having two bands play
the same score.  Different trumpets -- different sound -- same score.
Translated -- different SGUs -- different trumpets -- same sequence(MIDI stream)

The MIDI streams are the same (same controllers etc) but unless we are playing
with sysex, the MIDI info should be interpreted the same by each SGU and a 
similar effect should be produced (assuming that both SGUs trumpets are 
attempting to be trumpets and not one synth brass, one horn section, etc.

The parallel is that a real score has the same directions (ff, p, >, rit. etc)
but each trumpet player provides a slightly different flavor or interpretation
of these messages.

Of course, it is important to find somewhat compatible or equal patches.  For
example, using the above example of trumpet patches, the people
sharing SGUs need to use patches that are trying to approximate the same thing.
A "wall of brass" patch won't fill in for a "solo orchestra trumpet: patch.
Neither would a "jazz trumpet" patch fill in for said solo patch.  Something
like a solo trumpet patch would have to fill in.

Chad

> < Note 1996.12 by NORGE::CHAD "Ich glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tte" >
> I must agree with the original.  A sequence is like a score and trading it
> amongst people with slightly different set-ups is like having two bands play
> the same score.  Different trumpets -- different sound -- same score.
> Translated -- different SGUs -- different trumpets --
> same sequence(MIDI stream)

I won't beat this one for too long, but...

If the same person  were  to  record  a melody twice, using two slightly
     different patches, I think  the MIDI stream would come out slightly
     different in the two cases.    The musician would interact with the
     instrument    and    respond    to  the  exact    envolope/velocity
     sensitivity/aftertouch  sensitivity  by playing slightly more ahead
     or behind the beat.

That is my only point.  At the "score" level,  things  haven't  changed,
     but at the "performance" level, the "human feel" will be different.
     "Human feel" should always be recorded with  a particular SGU under
     the fingers (for optimal "human feel" results).

A MIDI  sequence  is  not  a  score,  it  is  a  performance,  with  all
     musician/instrument interactions frozen in.

This is only for non-quantized parts, of course.

In search of human feel,
/Mitch

    A old Scientific American article seems to indicate that different
    musicians play the same dynamic markings on the same passage VERY
    differently.  But my memory may have invented that.  Just followintg
    the Noting tradition of rumours, half-memories, and guesses. ;-)
    
    After writing complex concert scores for 17 years,  I didn't care
    about human feel, I was ecstatic to get a technically correct rendering
    and a decent recording (no comments about hum, please, you get used
    to it 8-)
    Tom

RE: Mitch

I don't want to beat this on either for too long.  A parallel to the
score for a sequence is still valid however.  It is a series of instructions
for players to play (or SGUs :-).  And not everyone will "record" in real
time for their composing and sequencing.

Of course, the goal is to have fun and be creative, however you do it.

Chad

    
    
    RE .8 I think.
    
    Bruce I am running pro-24 as well why don't we give it a try 
    
    				Paul.

	Hi all,

	Disregarding all of the previous banter in this topic, if people 
	really would like to share sequences with others, whether it's home
	original stuff or not, I'm opening up room here to act as a
	sequence-exchange library.  It would have to be *standard MIDI file*
	format only, but I know there are a lot of us that use computers
	and software sequencers, and most sequencers write in this format now,
	so we should have something decent here. 

	Personally, I don't think that not having 'the right SGU' or 'the right
	F/X' is going to detract from the knowledge/wisdom I could gain be
	listening to other peoples' works, and being able to see how it's
	actually written (I've got a scoring program).  If people are so
	concerned with 'not having their music played with the proper gear'
	then *don't participate*.  The rest of us will still be happy and will
	still enjoy ourselves.

	Regarding copyrighted stuff - somebody brought this up in a previous
	reply, but without any kind of legal backing.  If sequences were not
	being used to produce albums, why would it be considered a violation?
	After all, bands perform other peoples' stuff live.  I can't see how
	exchanging sequences for home (or live) use could be considered illegal.
	If there's a specific law that somebody would like to quote me that
	actually does declare this illegal, feel free to do so.  (And, if for
	some strange reason, it *is* illegal, then we can still do our own
	(written by us) sequences  and stuff in the public domain.

	Anyway, the location is MIDI::A$:[DAN.MIDI.SEQUENCES].  I will create
	[DAN.MIDI.SEQUENCES.DEPOSIT] to be where people can put everything,
	then I'll put it in the appropriate directory like RAGTIME.DIR or
	POP.DIR or ROCK.DIR or whatever.  Please include *two* files with
	submission, one that is the actual .MID file and another .TXT which
	includes suggestions as to what particular channels should be set for,
	what F/X should be used, and any other useful information the 
	contributor would like to share.

	Let's stop debating and have some fun!
	Dan

    Cover bands do not get away with playing other people's tunes without
    paying royalties. Club owners regularly pay "dues" to ASCAP/BMI to
    cover this very instance.
    
    SET MODE/MOD
    
    Please. DO NOT use this conference to advertise or encourage the
    exchange of sequences of copyrighted songs. 
    
    Edd

	Thanks for the correction Edd.  If this is the case, then I wouldn't
	even keep copyrighted music (sequences) in a public directory (so
	it's still OK to advertise here, no?).  The offer still stands for 
	songs that are in the public domain, or if people want to share 
	original stuff.

	Dan

	BTW,  I forget, how old does a song have to be, to be considered in
	the public domain?

    I'm not sure what determines public domain, or when a copyright
    expires.
    
    I'm not comfortable with this whole thing. Copyrighted stuff is a
    definite no-no, but even originals stored on DEC hardware and
    transferred over the net seem to be contrary to company policy.
    
    Please don't advertise anything in here until the co-mods give the
    word.
    
    Edd

Edd,

>...but even originals stored on DEC hardware and transferred over the net 
>seem to be contrary to company policy.
    
	How so?  Because it's not work-related?  Then what about MIDILIB
	on DYO780?  And this notes conference?  And all other non-work-related
	notes conferences?  And personal E-mail to one another?.......
	I don't understand.

>Please don't advertise anything in here until the co-mods give the word.

	Good 'nuff, you're the mod.  I'll wait.

Dan

    Well, the mods have conferred and the results are...
    
    1 "Go ahead"
    2 "No"
    1 "On the fence..."
    
    The issue is copyrights. What I or anyone else believes regarding this
    issue is moot, the company has a policy. 
    
    Please don't use this conference to encourage exchanging sequences that
    are not clearly in the public domain.
    
    Edd

The copyright law USED to be 29 years for the first copyright, renewable for
another 29 years.

I believe that the law now is that a copyright is valid for 50 years after the
death of the copyright holder.

I've seen several notes (including one of my own, I think) asking for pre-built
sequences to play with.  There is not too much response to any of them.

I just found a number of them, and thought I would share the info:

1.  Twelve-tone systems sells a whole wad of sequences for about $30.  A mixture
of classical, pop-like and so on.  (They claim not to be encumbered with
copyright, etc, so I assume that they probably don't have "real" pop tunes.

2.  On the PC-LINK service, there are about 5 or 6 ziped files of Cakewalk
sequences.  Some are fairly specific to MT32s, but others are at least modifi-
able.  Some of these are clearly "real" songs, so I would be careful where and
how I used them.

Burns