Conference napalm::commusic_v1

The following would be in MHO a good set-up.

First let me define a few things.  A good approach is to have several different
types of sound generation.  Also, thereare two different approaches to 
sequencing equipment wise -- software and hardware. Also, any given dollars
are VERY VERY approximate.  You need to check yourself.

OK

My system approach for this question would be:

1 digital-type multi-timbral synth (from amongst the following):

    Roland D-50  ($1350) or rack D-550  ($1000-1200) (only bi-timbral)
    Ensoniq VFX  ($1800)
    Korg M-1  ($1800-$2000) or M-1r ($1700-1800)
    Kawai K-5 (earlier this year for < $800 -- retail like D50 and such)

1 analog-type synth:

    Oberheim Matrix-1000  ($450-550)   (rack)
    used Roland

1 sampler/sample-player

       (sampler)

    Roland S-550 sampler ($2300-$2500)  
    Roland S-330 sampler ($1500-$1700)
    Ensoniq EPS w lotsa memory and multi-out (??? $2200 ????)
    Yamaha TX16W  ($1200-$1400)
    Akai S950   ($1800 ??)
    Emu EMAX  ($2200 ?????)

        (sample-player)

    Kurzweil 1000PX ($1800)  or K-1000 keyboard version ($2000 ?)
    Emu Proteus ($995 -- not yet readily available)
    Roland U-110 ($900)
    more specialized are the other Kurzweil boxes (AX - acoustix expander,
         GX -- guitar expander, HX - horn expander)


1 Percussion box (drum machine)

    Roland R8 (the KING)   ($750-$800)
    Alesis HR16  (about $400)

1 sequencer (either hardware or software)

     software (if you've already got a computer -- get a package for it --
	       if not:  )

    Atari Mega 2 with C-Lab notator

      hardware

    Roland MC-500 II w/SMC (or whatever it is called) software

1 mixer

    Roland 16-channel rack M-160  ($800)

outboard effects (2-4 is nice)

       multi-effects boxes

    Alesis Quadraverb ($449)
    ART Multiverb (and family)  ($479-$900)
    Digitech DSP-128+   ($379)
    Roland and Yamaha also have expensive and very good boxes)

       there are also single effects boxes.  read here in COMMUSIC for details


1 MIDI processor and or thru-box

    MX-8  ($280)

You may or may not need an amp.  I do most of my work through headphones.

1 or more controllers

   You may already have a synth keyboard on one or more of your 
   sound-generating-units (SGUs) so you may not need a controller.

   If you want 88 keys weighted then there are (amongst others)

     Roland A-80  (????  >$2000)  (real nice -- saw one at Daddy's Nashua 
	                           today)
     Yamaha KX88  ($1300)
     Kawai M??? ($1250)
     Kurzweil MIDIboard ($1500-$2000  -  I saw one mailorder for $1450 once)

----------------------------------------------------

That is basically my idea of the different parts for a nice home studio.  They
are only my opinions.  You can do better and you may have different ideas/needs/
etc.  It doesn't reflect my current studio (lack of $$$  :-)

Chad

    
    Maybe I should have mentioned that I would be a novice at midi gear.
    I didn't realize that all that stuff is necessary. I was under the
    assumption that the better the keyboard, the more it would do and
    all I would need is a drum machine and some kind of effects box.
    Is this still possible? I don't want the TOYS that are out like
    the Yamaha or Casio. Sounds like what you mentioned in -.1 would
    cost a little under a fortune >$10k maybe. I was hoping for a setup
    in the range of $5k of so.
    
    john

RE < Note 1992.2 by GIAMEM::MICHAUD "Think about software that thinks!" >

	You certainly don't have to spend 10K to get a good studio.  Mine, I 
estimate, is somewhere in the $3-4K range, and it has nearly all that was 
mentioned earlier.  But I bought most of it used or when there were blowout 
sales.

	You are right about the possibility of finding a good all-around synth
and adding a drum machine.  An ESQ-1 and a drum box could be just the ticket to
get you going.  You could probably get by for about $1200-$1500, depending on 
how well you shopped and if you went new or used.  The ESQ will give you
a multi-timbral synth (able to play different sounds simultaneously), and a good
sequencer.

	Keep in mind, though, that you also need some way to hear these.  The
cheapest way to get by is to pick up a small mixer (from Rat Shack - $30 or so)
and send the output into your stereo.  Just be sure, if you take that route, to
watch the volume.

	Keep in mind also that this is an incredibly addicting habit.  One SGU,
like the ESQ will only satisfy you until its eight voices run out.  Then you 
need more SGUs, and more signal processors (reverbs, delays, etc.) and better
tape decks, and bigger speakers, and hotter amps and (somebody stop me!) better
sounds for your synths and (help!)...

	Dan (pant, pant)

    I think you'd be crazy to walk into a store and spend anywhere near
    $5k to "start out".
    
    I would do as Dan suggested.  Get an Ensoniq ESQ-1 or an SQ-80 and a drum
    machine, possibly an inexpensive reverb box, and a cheap mixer.
    
    Then figure out what you need.
    
    	db

I agree with Dan and db, don't buy it all at once.  My reply, .1 was to show 
what I think a "pro" or "semi-pro" (notice quotes) composer might end up with
as his working composition and production studio (minus recording gear).  

One suggestion is to look at the M1 -- it is a multi-timbral synth akin to 
sample players with drum sounds built in and built in effects and a small 
sequencer.  You can add to that later.  (And believe me, you will when the
disease strikes you :-) :-)

Chad

    > Is this still possible? I don't want the TOYS that are out like   
    > the Yamaha or Casio. Sounds like what you mentioned in -.1 would  
    
    Small point -- very hard to distinguish toys from non-toys here.
    Usually, toyness is inversely proportional to cost. At least that's
    how many people justify it!
    
    Richard.

    
    Well, looks like we're getting somewhere. I'm starting to get the
    picture as to what I need to do the job. Now, does anyone want to
    swap a studio setup for a great grand piano? That is the reason
    I mentioned a $5k equivalent. If so, let's talk.
    
    thanks for the info.
    
    john

    One more piece of gear if you want the functionality (for live playing)
    of an "organ" - some foot pedals.  I use a set of Elka DPM-18 for
    my "separates setup like an organ" setup.  18 notes (C-F) MIDI foot
    pedals.
    
    	-Jim

    I agree with everyone (that doesn't happen much)...
    
    Anyway, I also feel it is best to start small, and build up as you
    go along.
    
    I've bought just about all of my equipment used, using the want-ad
    THIS notesfile (12.*), as my resources.  I have on accasion bought
    used equipment at stores, but only if I could pay cash, and about
    1/4 off their price tag...
    
    I already had an Atari ST and a home stereo. After that in order was:
    
    		drum machine (used/abused, bought as is and repaired)
    		midi-bass (used)
    		Korg DSS1 Synth/Sampler (floor model)
    		cassete deck (used,2-track marantz home type)
    		Yamaha FB01 (used)
    		4-track open real (used, TEAC 3340s)
    	      *	12 channel mixer (used)
                Analog guitar
    	        misc pedal effects
    		
    * Before obtaining this I used a 5-in 1-out (stereo) "mini-mixer"
      that can be built for about $10 in radio shack parts.  I put
      the plans for this in a notesfile about a hundred or so back...	
    
    It's really good to understand what your buying piece for piece,
    so you don't end up with something that won't suit you.
    
    Back to work,
    
    _John_
    		

RE: .5, .6

�    > Is this still possible? I don't want the TOYS that are out like   
�    > the Yamaha or Casio. Sounds like what you mentioned in -.1 would  
    
�    Small point -- very hard to distinguish toys from non-toys here.
�    Usually, toyness is inversely proportional to cost. At least that's
�    how many people justify it!

Careful.  Casio and Yamaha obviously make pro equipment as well as what
most people refer to as toys. The problem is that both the literature and
the price do NOT necessary tell you which is which.  It *is* hard to tell.

1. Today, NO_MIDI = TOY.  Most people in this conference would agree.  (You
can retrofit to some degree if you like an older unit.)

2. For some all presets means toy.  Yamaha has a line of fancy combination
units that they call pro and that sell at prices up to $1500.  (I believe
that the $1500 one is the only one with velocity sensitivity.)  Roland and
others have similar units.  If the presets are good (they are on the
Roland E20 I looked at), the unit may be fully adequate for professional
use.  It won't be if you're a synthaholic.

3. For some, lack of system exclusive means toy. If you want to store
patches, down load, use a librarian, etc., you need system exclusive. 

4. According to at least one salesman, having speakers in a synth means
toy.  (The combination units tend to have speakers, and they tend to 
have only presets.  They're often very costly.  Are they toys?)

If you *know* you are going to spend big bucks on MIDI eventually, make
sure you get the best keyboard you can.  It should be able to control any
boxes you might hook it up to, it should have velocity sensitivity (unless 
you only do organ stuff), it probably should have aftertouch, and you may
wish to have weighted keys.  Consider 61 keys as a minimum.

I *strongly* agree that you start out with a minimal setup.  Until you
really understand what you want to be able to do, you're likely to blow
it. More important, you'll learn more about your equipment.  In
photography, they say you should try leaving home with only one lens (even 
if you own 10).  That way, you're forced to find out how to use a 200mm
lens where you though only a 35mm would do.  Too many options and you
never learn any one thing very well.  

Alex (a synthaholic who, 3 months and many hours later, is still exploring 
      the reaches of his synth that some people would only call a toy [has 
      speakers]).

    
    Oopps!
    
    	When I mentioned the word 'TOY' I meant the department store
    models. Example: Yamaha PSR6 and Casio MT410 etc... I wasn't talking
    about the units such as the DX7 and the like. I realize that this
    is pro gear. Believe me, I am learning quite a bit here. Thanks
    for all the advice and keep it coming! I think if I settle on anything,
    it will be the ESQ-1 for the keyboard.
    
    john