Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    	Ben,
    
    
    		Let the 246 do the stereo imaging.  I've got a 244 and
    	if I were going to do that I'd:
    
    		Channel 1  Mic/Line	-	Guitar (no effects)
    		Channel 2  Mic/line	-	Congas (thru comp/lim
    						        if necessary)
    
    	Once it's on tape, you can play back to ch 3 & 4 by taking your
    	signal from 1 & 2 send, running them thru any effects you may
    	desire, then bringing them back in on 3 & 4 receive.
    
    							Just a thought,
    
    								Rich
    
    	

    That's an option yes.  I'm pretty used to putting everything thru
    the comp/limiter before putting it on tape.  I think that's because
    I've always had trouble with oversautrating the tape which the
    comp/lim takes care of.  I think though I could probably do alright
    in that respect with the acoustic guitar though (ie: not have to
    much signal).  
    
    By recording on 1 and 2 then going back thru any effects and bouncing
    to 3 and 4 I'd be losing a generation of sound.  I may have to do
    that but I was hoping to be able to put the acoustic and congas
    right onto 2 of the 4 tracks where they'll remain without being
    bounced.
    
    Thanks for the suggestion.  I'll add it to my list of things to
    try tonight.
    
    Ben.

    
                                                                           
    >   By recording on 1 and 2 then going back thru any effects and
    >bouncing to 3 and 4 I'd be losing a generation of sound.
    
    -- but you'd have the distinct advantage of NOT being stuck with fx you
    decide you don't want. Unless you're recording 'live' and 'straight'
    (e.g.a chamber group in a good sounding room) then it's probably best
    to record first and add fx onto your spare channels, then
    mixdown'n'match later.
    
    I'm no expert, but this is what I've observed!
    
    Richard.
    
    
    

    Ben,
    
    When you go into multi-track live recording there is a general princple
    of going for "coverage" and "control" during recording instead of stereo 
    imaging.
    
    That is, use your tracks to cover all the inputs you can and then
    create the stereo image on mixdown.
    
    "Coverage" means using the tracks to get an independent track for
    each sound source (the mics and the pickup).
    
    The "control" comes from having separate tracks for each sound source.
    This gives you more options with what you do with them: their panning,
    the effects you add, the balance between instruments, etc.
    
    You will find that the most common failure of 4-track live recordings
    is the balance of the instruments, which includes an instrument not
    even getting picked up at all.
    
    If I were doing this:
    
    	1 track for pickup
    
    	1 track of mic'ed guitar run through compressor
    
    	1 track mic for congas
    
    If you only have one compressor/limiter channel, there's little point in
    using it on the drums.  Chances are your compressor isn't fast enough
    to limit such sharp attack transients, AND chances are that you will
    be able to set a good level on them any way.
    
    I'd use it on the guitar mic.
    
    I'd also opt to use BOTH the mic and the pickup as the direct pickup
    sound can be very dry and bright sounding - the mic will pickup the
    natural ambience that the guitar's body adds.   You can later mix
    those two guitar sources to taste.  In fact, this is how lots of
    guitar pros (including Larry Carlton, Ricky Scaggs, etc) record
    acoustic guitar in the studio (blending pickups with mics).
    
    It seems a shame to waste that 4th track.   Is this going to be in
    front of an audience?  If so, I'd be tempted to pickup an inexpensive
    mic and place it either pointing at the audience, or behind the
    audience pointing to the stage and record it on track 4.
    
    	db
    

    Hmmm... yeh, right okay... 
    
    I like the idea of having the guitar on one track and the congas
    on the other.  That would make the process alot easier.  As far
    as miking the guitar and using the pickup with both going to 
    different tracks respectively is also a good idea but i will be using 
    those tracks for an electric guitar and a vocal later.  Does the
    idea of actually recording the pickup and miked acoustic onto two
    tracks and then bouncing them onto a third to have a mix of the
    two degrade the sound somewhat?  I think this may be something I
    just have to try out??   Once I do the bounce, that's what I have
    of course.
    
    Tonight's 'live' performance is in studio.  Between the two of us
    playing we get a good groove going which I'll build the rest of
    the song over.  
    
    I was also concerned with using the comp/limiter on the congas.  I
    guess I'll try the congas sans c/l as suggested.
    
    I also agree with having all signals clean on recording so that
    afterward I can go back and add whatever I like on mixdown.  The
    major problem I have there is the limited amount of equipment
    I have.  I really only have the mvii and I usually find I use it
    to add reverb to the song as a whole on mixdown.  So far it's worked
    out okay adding varous effects to the individual parts as recorded.
    I do realize that's the way they'll always be though. 
    
    Thanks for the suggestions.. if there are more feel free!
    
    Ben.
    

>    Does the idea of actually recording the pickup and miked acoustic onto two
>    tracks and then bouncing them onto a third to have a mix of the
>    two degrade the sound somewhat?
    
    Well... yes...   but...
    
    In the realm of 4-track recording you end up having to make some
    trade-offs.
    
    In this case, you are trading off the ability to get the mix level
    between the congas and the guitar against the loss of signal quality
    in one generation.
    
    In short, you have a choice between mix level quality and sound
    quality.
    
    One bounce shouldn't make a very noticeable difference, especially
    if you're going to be adding more things to the mix.   You're also
    fortunate to have a very high quality tape deck which should minimize
    the effects of the bounce.
    
    The other thing is that if you're planning to add a lot more tracks
    you'll find yourself bending over backwards to try and maintain the
    goal of a stereo final recording.  You might want to reconsider that
    as a goal - you generally are faced with a trade-off of control over
    the final mix vs. stereo.
    
    	db
    	2) Control over the mix
    	3) 
    

    Well... this is what I ended up doing: 
    
    I took the pick-up'd acoustic guitar into the comp/limi, then thru
    the mvii with some slight chorus i think (#60, i forget what it
    was for sure), and into tracks 1 & 2.  the bongos, which we ended
    up using over the congas, came in also on trks 1 and 2.  so as you
    guys warned the mix was everything here.  and... it actually came
    out pretty decent.  i can't say i wouldn't try and do better with
    this setup but for this particular tune, which needs to be timely,
    it's good.
    
    Next thing I was thinking of trying was a combination of what was
    suggested:  Record the guitar onto trk 1 with the slight #60 which
    i like or maybe just straight, or maybe... but anyway, bring the
    guitar on trk 1 and the bongos on trk 2.  then go for the bounce
    sending the guitar, thru the mvii using the stereo generation patch,
    and bongos onto trks 3 and 4.  this would give the control over the 
    guitar/bongo mix plus enable me to eq both of them seperately.
    
    The way I had it set up the bongos did peak out the digital warning
    light every now and again.  i didn't want to get the signal so
    low though that they were non-existant. i didn't try putting them
    thru the c/l to see if it could be controlled.  i'll play with this
    as well.
         
    Ben.

A technique often overlooked in this age of overdubbing, etc, is to have the
musicans control the volume of their playing such that the "mix" is correct.
In your case, your would need to have both the guitar player and the bongo
player listening on headphones to the mixed result, while they are playing.

    
    I have the same problem in that my limiter is stereo and I have
    had stange things happen with two independent signals going through
    at the same time.  I would have simply recorded the guitar dry,
    with limiting, to one track (Dave's idea about a second track for
    the pickup was cool if you want a crisp edge) and done the drums
    straight.  During the mix, I would patch the limiter in on the drums
    and the Midiverb to the guitar, then do the master stereo mix.
    
    What this goes to show, basically, is that it's nicer to have pairs of
    mono limiters than stereo limiters if you're recording more than one
    thing at a time.  Looking at Alesis, their (stereo) box is so cheap
    compared to the competition (i.e. dBx) that it's worth having two of
    them on hand.  In a pinch, find an old stereo cassette deck, many of
    them in the early seventies had on-board limiters.  This is actually
    what I use.  As long as the preamp works, you don't need the transport
    and heads, so ones that are "broken" and therfore dirt cheap will often
    do the trick.  Can't rack-mount them though (Sorry, Dave). 

>    I have the same problem in that my limiter is stereo and I have
>    had stange things happen with two independent signals going through
>    at the same time.
    
    I couldn't find the previous note that describe this "same problem"
    via a quick perusal, but if strange things are happening with
    independent signals, it suggests to me that your compressor has a
    "link" button that is in the wrong position ("on") when using
    the two channels for independent sources.
    
    Without getting into details, in "link" mode, it acts as a stereo 
    compressor (both sides get the same compression level); out of
    "link" mode, it acts as two independent compressors.
    
    	db

    
    Re: .10
    
    No strange problem then, the Alesis Micro Limiter and my cassette deck
    are stereo-only machines.  Unlike a real (read: expensive)
    compressor/limiter, you cannot limit each channel separately.  No
    problem if you are using it for recording one part at a time or during
    a final mixdown, but a drag if you want to limit two totally
    independent signals.  The pits is if one of those signals is a drum. 

    I agree with -.1.  You really can't send two seperate signals thru
    the Alesis Micro Limiter.  They are fairly inexpensive though. 
    
    Without degrading to far... I had some problems with mine not to
    long ago.  Something in the Micro Limiter blew itself up and nearly
    took my head off with it.  I ended up sending it back to Alesis
    and they repaired it pretty quickly free of charge. 
    
    Ben.