Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    > The other thing that happens is you've got a 30 second idea...
    
    Ever think of writing jingles?
    
    Edd

>    The other thing that happens is youve got a 30 second idea that
>    sounds *sooo goooodd*, but try as you might you can't take the next
>    step and expand it into something meaningful. (This is what usually
>    happens to me). Again, inspiration wears off and you're left with
>    another "bit" for filing for potential future use.
    
    This was the inspiration for my sniglet "MIDILey", which is the
    "medley's" of 10-to-30 second undeveloped sequences which I'm
    sure we're all familiarr with (we've all done them).
    
    I used to do them myself but early on I just sorta thought about my
    goals.  I decided that the only output that I find at all satisfying is
    complete musical works (songs) and now if I can't develope an idea, I
    delete the sequence to avoid the temptation.  I literally force
    myself to be song-oriented.
    
    The problem is that MIDI makes developing MIDIleys incredibly quick and
    easy but it's just as hard as it ever was to do a complete musical
    work.  MIDI allows helps you express ideas, but not (so much) to
    combine ideas artistically.   And (with certain exceptions) one idea
    does not make a "complete" musical work.  The ability to do that is a
    talent that I certainly can appreciate.
    
    	db - who hasn't had anything on a Commusic tape since III

>    Do other COMMUSIC Noters go through this too, if so, how do you
>    rationalise the first and how do you get over the second. I'd be
>    interested to hear your thoughts.
    
    We'll I guess I covered the "rationalise" part, but forgot about
    the "how do you get over" it.
    
    What I do is sorta hard, and not very palatable to the typical
    MIDIphile.  It might not work for everyone.
    
    At some point, I decided to regard my MIDI gear as a "production
    system".
    
    What that means is that I try to only use it to record fairly complete
    ideas.  I avoid using my full setup to develop ideas.
    
    I try to leave most of it turned off when writing and develope songs
    mostly on my RD-300 set to straight piano, or on my guitar.   The
    presence of all the glowing lights on the other stuff is just too
    much of a temptation to "play".
    
    I try to turn that stuff on only when I'm ready to start "arranging".
    
    Now there are (too often) exceptions.  Sometimes, I'll be demo'ing new
    patches or samples and something just "happens".  It's quite common
    that something in the sound "suggests" an idea.   Not surprisingly
    though, these ideas are often the hardest to flesh out.
    
    I find that when I'm writing on simple piano or guitar, I tend to
    think more in musical terms than in sound terms and those make
    for easier (to develop) songs.
    
    Now of course, another problem that might be interesting to talk about
    is "when do you decide that something is good enough".
    
    Now THAT, is BY FAR, my biggest problem.   I never seem to accept
    that something is "done" or "good enough" or "worth continuing".
    
    Anyone else have that problem?
    
    	db
    

    Dave, I understand what youre saying WRT your goals as complete
    songs or tunes. I confess though that I would have great difficulty
    throwing those "bits" away. In fact most of the completed works
    I've done are as the result of going back to one and developing
    it. It may be a function of the time available but I cant seem to
    spend more than an hour or so in creativity mode at one time.
    The other comment you made regarding leaving most of your gear off
    is also a good one, and suggests that you are able to "hear in your
    head" what you want to achieve. I find though that much of my
    inspiration comes from sound textures and inter-relationships that
    arise when many things are happening at once. Another discussion
    in this notes file talks about differences in people who know theory
    and those who don't. As I don't then perhaps this may be my inhibitor
    to your method. I think I'll try it though and see what transpires.
    
    The other point I made in the base note was in regard to "Plagarism".
    Has it happened to you or others that you suddenly get the doubt
    that your piece is original and you can't remember from where the
    idea originated (especially when my wife starts humming my tunes,
    I think she MUST have heard it somewhere else)
    
    Ken                               
    

    The same answer for both:
    get trained in composition.  There are good books.  look in the
    library.
    If you learn the harmony, counterpoint, form, and orchestration
    taught to music majors in college, not only will Keyboard articles
    about music theory suddenly get very boring and old, but 
    1. You will develop ideas that are original or used in an original
    way because they were developed in a partly technical way divorced
    from your unconscious memories of all the music you have heard 
    and
    2. You will know how to build phrases (with harmonic tones,
    non-harmonic tones, and with interesting new harmonices, Gershwin
    was
    harmonically very sophisticated, not because he heard it somewhere,
    but because
    he studied harmoniy in modern work) melodies (with extensions, sequences,
    question/answer, cadence) and songs and other forms
    out of 8 bars of ideas.
    3. You will know how to orchestrate your pieces.  Although traditional
    orchestras are not what midi is about, the concepts of tone-weight,
    volume, texture, and layering, from it are.
    
    Tom

The "plagarism" feeling hits me a lot.  I was working on a dance piece (for
contra-type dancing) using my standard technique for avoiding copyrighted
material:  I take a melody line from a piece by Bach as the starting point and
radically change the time signature, etc.  Then I do variations on *that*.

Well it was going pretty good and I needed a "B" part.  The one I came up with
fit with the "A" (Bach-derived) part really well.  I could hear the whole thing
in my head and it sounded great.  So I wrote the whole thing out.

Then I started to think, "Have I heard this somewhere before?"  I was
especially worried because in my mind's ear I was hearing this piece complete
with instrumentation, fully arranged.  Well, I only have one album of
contradance music that I have listened to much at all, and if my "B" part was
"stolen", that is where it must have come from.  So I listened to the album
again.  (It had been several months since I last had.)

There it was.  "My" B part.  16 measures, note for note, complete with
instrumentation.  Good and bad news.  I had to throw out my B part.  But as
another musician pointed out, I had a "talent" that many would envy - the
ability to recall an intricate melody in detail months later. Yeah, well,
sometimes it is a curse.

    I have a few suggestions:

    1) Find someone else to work with. I get stuck a lot, but I started
       working with 2 other people & have found that I finish things in
       a reasonably short amount of time & I tend to like what I end up
       with.

    2) Don't concern yourself so much with the parts that sound like
       something else (look at the tons of songs that use a simple 3 or
       4 chord progression & sound very similar to tons of other songs).
       Being that there are only 12 notes to begin with (unless you are
       playing Indian music), it's likely that anything that you come up
       with has already occurred in 1,000 other songs, in exactly the same
       sequence.
       
    3) If you like what you've done, work with it. I find that I spend a
       a lot of time on initial work & then when I've played the music for
       a while (like 6 months), it's ready to commit it to a status of
       finished. During that 6 months, it gets played on weekends with my
       duo & I tend to change the rough edges, or work on articulating
       some piece differently. Usually, during this time, I work out a
       solo that I like (I don't improvise as well as I'd like, but, over
       time I can put things together that I really like).

    4) Don't scrap your efforts. They may seem like junk now, but a year
       from now you might recall a part of what you've done & want to
       incorporate it into something new that you are working on. You may
       not know how to use some little part that sounds very unique just
       this very moment, but, it may be quite usable in another place &
       song.

    5) Ask someone that you trust to tell you what is wrong with it.
       Something might be musically too busy (easy to do with all this
       MIDI gear and a method of sequencing too much together), or maybe
       you are trying to force too many words into a verse & the lyrical
       content becomes confusing. In the case of being too busy, try to
       consider the essense of your song & put only what is really needed
       into it, you might find that you like it better. In the case of
       lyrics, try to simplify them to the point where the same concept
       (maybe even in a wider context) is presented with the fewest words
       possible. Don't take any criticisum personal, but at the same time
       make sure that the opionion that you get is one that refects a
       positive path to the type of music that you are trying to create.
       If you are writing a symphony, advice from someone who thinks that
       KISS is the best music that ever was is likely to not understand
       your goals or provide much useful feedback (Geez, Where's the guitar
       solo in this Beethoven Symphony???).

    6) Decide what it is that you are trying to do. Set a goal of some
       sort, that defines the type of music that you want to pursue. Once
       you do this, you can sit back and ask yourself how this particular
       song relates to your goal & what parts of it need to be changed to
       match (For example, if you look for minimal Bass lines, try to
       simplify it, if you want a complex jazzy bass line, work out some
       patterns that fit; If you want a horn section, think about what
       it might sound like if real horn players were doing it; If you
       like lots of percussion, try to fit the added percussion in & make
       it complement what you are doing). Not all of your work has to
       match your main goal, but a goal gives you some sort of direction to
       think about when you are stuck.

    7) Depending on the type of music that you are working on, it is
       probably best to make sure that each instrument that you are adding
       is instantly reconisable within the mix (you can hear the drums,
       bass instrument, keyboards, etc very distinctly). If not, choose
       another instrument sound for the part or change the part so that
       it stands out effectively.

    8) Get a rhyming dictionary (Paul Simon uses one when he gets stuck).
       You don't have to use the words that they suggest, but it may take
       you down a different path because of a word that rhymes with
       something in another verse.


						    Jens

    This is all good info guys, thanks. Its also good to know that others
    suffer from some of the same problems.
    Tom, I'm in complete agreement with what you say regarding study.
    Maybe its a matter of commitment..I just can't seem to find the
    time. I've tried searching the bookstores and everything I pick
    up looks so over-facing..any recommendations for a musical idiot?
    
    It certainly would be different to create a piece based on knowledge
    as opposed to gut feel and memories of tunes heard before. (I write
    tunes, not songs). Knowledge would help make that breakthrough from
    a "bit" to a tune and would get me away from simply repeating a
    melody with different voicings (listen to my submissions on the
    new COMMUSIC tape and you'll see what I mean).
    
    I also like the idea of working with someone else, only problem
    is I don't know anyone else who has the same weird tastes as I do
    (why does everything I do sound like Mike Oldfield without even
    intending to).
    
    Ken
    

    Good topic.
    
    re imagined plagiarism - this doesn't happen to me often, but I
    trust that if my subconscious IS delivering some already-heard music
    to my conscious, that I will 'remember' it so poorly that any real
    resemblance won't appear.  I forget the name, but some famous composer
    said, "My plagiarism is limited by my faulty memory."
    
    re music fragments and completing pieces..
    
    I find the tools one uses heavily influence the music.  For example,
    if I use OPCODE on the MAC, I get music that has shorter musical
    phrase length, and tends to repeat sections - AABACBA, etc.  This
    is because OPCODE has track looping, and lets me easily call up
    entire sections by just entering each sequence's letter name.  On
    the other hand, Performer, which in the version I have, has NO phrase
    looping/sequence calling, lends itself to extended improvisations,
    which can then be edited and overdubbed.. completely different
    approaches to music making.
    
    Another tool is to make cassette dubs of your MIDI bits, and drive
    around playing them in your car (if possible).  Just last week I
    did this, recorded a bunch of MIDI things (that hadn't made 'official'
    status) to cassette.  I had to drive to/from Phoenix for DEC, and
    on the way back focused on a piano improv I'd recorded into Performer
    back in January.  It became clear that the first third of the piece
    was crap.  Further, I was hearing very simple but powerful rock
    drums in my head as I listened to it in the car.
    
    So, guess what my last few days' project has been ?  Sounds great.
    
    karl

The "famous composer" you are thinking of was P.D.Q. Bach, about whom it has
been said, "His plagarism was limited only by his faulty technique."

    Ooops! I guess I should use a dictionary more often!
    
    Yeh Karl, I too drive around with all these bits on tape. It drives
    my wife crazy, so much that she tells me she wakes up in the middle
    of the night with my "bits" in her head.  ;-0
    
    Ken
    

    Jens touched on something interesting:
    
    Getting criticism from others.
    
    There's probably nothing harder to do.  I've thought about this
    A LOT and come to some conclusions.  It's one of my "hot buttons".
    
    The problem is that it is very hard to get HONEST criticism from
    folks you know.  People are too afraid to offer a negative critique
    for fear of "retaliation".  Is that their fault?  No way.
    
    It's the result of the unfortunate way people take criticism.  It
    is rarely "safe" to be honest if you don't like something someone
    has done.  9 times outa 10 they'll bite your head off for speaking
    out.
    
    Look at what happened recently in the Commusic reviews!  My impression
    is that most people are going to temper their reviews considerably
    when VI gets out and while I think that's the ONLY reaction one
    can have to the events that occurred, (I wouldn't blame anyone for
    holding back their negative criticisms given what they'd likely get
    back for them) I think it's damned unfortunate.
    
    So how do you get honest criticism?  You have to create an aura and
    environment where it's establish that criticism is welcome, good and
    bad.
    
    In my bands, I've made a point of doing two things EVERY chance 
    I get:
    
    	1) At each practice, offer BOTH negative and positive criticism
           to every member of the band.  I've played with some great
           players and some not-so-great players but I have yet to play
    	   with the person who always plays good, or always plays bad.
    
    	2) Whenever a person offers me a negative criticism I stop short
    	   only of kissing their feet for doing it.  I give them every
    	   reason I can to think that I welcome their honest, and avoid
           giving them any reason to think that I was offended, or mad,
           or whatever.
    
    By offering negative criticism to others, and by welcoming it about
    myself, I believe I create an environment where it's understood that
    people can make constructive criticism.
    
    Another rule is that any compliment not also accompanied by a criticism
    is largely written off as politeless.
    
    The key point is that, the only thing that gives credibility to
    compliments, is the knowledge that criticism is as freely offered
    as compliments.

    >Yeh Karl, I too drive around with all these bits on tape. It drives
    >my wife crazy, so much that she tells me she wakes up in the middle
    >of the night with my "bits" in her head.  ;-0
     
    I think I'd consider that a complement!  At least they're catchy
    enough to be memorable...
    
    I have the same problems with thinking something I'm working on
    sounds familiar and getting lots of unconnected ideas.  
    
    If I don't work on it for a few days, the song that I think it sounds
    like usually pops into my head (at the most unexpected times) and then
    I can realistically tell if it's really a copy or something which just
    reminds me of something else.  Like someone already mentioned, what I
    do with the familiar sounding ones is play them for friends to see if
    they recognize them.  
    
    I still have a big problem with the unconnected bits.  I think that
    working on improving my musical knowledge and/or finding someone to
    collaborate with will help with this, but for now...there are tons of
    little paper scraps which float around the house.  :-) 
                                                          
    Greg

> < Note 1963.5 by ANT::JANZEN "T - 500 picoseconds and counting" >
>                         -< The answer to both is STUDY >-

Couldn't agree more.

I am currently  taking  my  second  course  in  'Fundementals  of  Music
     Theory'.    This  is basically the  second  half  of  a  full  year
     traditional harmony course.  Taught by John  Stewart at the Harvard
     Extension    School    in  Cambridge.    Great  teacher,  easygoing
     atmosphere, lectures on theory, good ear training in class with two
     pianos, music writing  drills,  analysis,  sight  singing  in class
     every week,  lot's  of  sheet  music  handed  out  in  class.  Bach
     Chorales, 7th chords,  modulation...    the  topics  go  on and on.
     These two courses have  done more for my playing/writing than years
     of diddling.  Cost:   $250  per  course  (a  mere FB01).  Text book
     (work book) was very good.  The motivation factor is important too:
     ie.  Taking the course makes you study the books.

I am also  looking  into  taking  a  course    at   Tuft's  this  summer
     (Improvisation in Contemporary Music).

I think Ken is in Toronto, but there must be a music course around there
     somewhere.

Happy Patriot's Day.

/Mitch

    Criticisum is tough, however, the people that I work with tend to be
    brutal when it comes to honesty, and in general, are often right when
    they see a failing that I missed, or didn't think about. Of course,
    my feelings don't get stepped on when the issues are defined as they
    relate to what I want criticisum on. No one said that being an artist
    is easy, to quote a painter freind of mine "Everybody I've talked to
    says it doesn't work, I must be asking the wrong people". He does what
    he thinks is right & has found people that give him what he considers
    valuable feedback. I like his work because it touches on art in a very
    unique way (varations of a theme that I had never thought of). In the
    same way, the music that I make has to satisfy me, no matter what the
    critisum might be. It all goes back to the issue of finding the right
    people to help you attain your goals. I've found that positive
    collaboration with the right people seems to work for me.

						Jens

    
    
    	I find it helps to try not to listen to music which is in the
    same vein as the music you compose. For me, this works and I don't
    subliminaly plagarize.
        I also never keep bits. I throw out everything. Everything except
    finished products.
    	
       
    
    					Rich
       

     
  >       I find it helps to try not to listen to music which is in the
  >   same vein as the music you compose. For me, this works and I don't
  >   subliminaly plagarize.
   
    Why would you do that Rich? The music I try and compose and the
    music I like to listen to tend to be in the same vein. I have a
    preference for a certain type of music so why would I not listen
    to it just to avoid "subliminal plagiarism" (nice expression).
    
    It sounds like you'd deprive yourself of say listening to Mozart
    if thats how you liked to compose. I can see your point but sorry,
    that's not for me, it would mean I'd have to throw out 90% of my
    CDs!!
    
    Ken
          

    Another thought re .16
    I guess plagiarism can take many forms. I confess to plagiarising
    the "look and feel" of certain of my fave musicians. However those
    times when I've realised the essential melody is coming from my
    subconcious it hasn't been from one of those, instead it's been
    from somewhere ridiculous like the local supermarket or something
    like that.
    
    Maybe the next COMMUSIC tape should have a "The best of plagiarised
    muzak" section.  ;-)
    
    Ken
    

    
    
    Re .17
    
       Let me explain. I am in the process of writing approx. 14 songs
    for my newest effort, which is a two piece midiband. The music is
    a sort of avant-funk, ala  King Crimson, Gang of Four, T. Dolby etc.
    If I listen to this type music, I will surely ripoff something from
    them unknowingly.
       Yet, this is really not the type of music I hold closest to my
    heart. This is purely a comercial project pointed towards a specific
    audience in a specific type of club. 
       I still continue to write other compositions which I can enjoy
    listening to without thinking about commercial aspects.  
    
    
    						Rich
    

    Plagarism in music must be blatent and obviously specific to the
    song being plagarized.  A writer (w/out a conscious) could make
    any minor modification (words, riffs) and technically be original.
    Risks we all must take when we write something deemed purely original.
    
    IMO, nothing can be purely original within the limited scope of
    commercialability.  All the grooves, styles and hook formulas have
    been established.  Anything I do has definate influences.  It has
    been done before under a different light.
    
    I sometimes find myself creating an idea on an already too familiar
    style (ie: U2).  This is frustrating because alternatives don't
    work as well as the original idea and yet the 'original idea' is
    really mimicking the inalienable style of the group that created
    it.  They are always scrapped.
    
    The important thing nowadays (for me) is not what the song is made
    up of but instead, how the song is played.  The idea described above
    would work without the regenerated guitar sound (EDGE), maybe.
    
    I've given up trying to do complete works using Midi.  The environment
    is too rigid for me.  I use it for production purposes only.
    
    jocitizen