Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    Check out the DX11.  Has most all your looking for except a few
    minor things you mentioned you could do without.
    
    dc

    The Juno-2 does have velocity sensitivity; the Juno-1 does not (Juno-2
    has 61 keys; Juno-1 only 49).  No splits; only 6 voices.  (I don't
    own either, but awhile back I looked into them ...)
    
    	-Jim

RE < Note 1893.1 by WRO8A::CORTOPADA >

	I second this recommendation for the DX11.  Sam Ash (New York) has been
selling these for $495 new.  That looks to me like the deal of the century for
someone in a position like yours.

	Dan

    Alex:                                     
    	You are asking for a tall order given your cost restraints.
    Not that there aren't good synths out there with many of your require-
    ments, but that it will be difficult to get all of them in one package.
    	
    	Although I am not that familiar with YAMAHA's synths, I can
    vouch for their other digital gear (eg 4-tracks, monitors, etc.)
    and acoustic keyboards; they're excellent with great documentation.
    Another good company to check out is ROLAND, some of whose newer
    synths might be in your price range.
    
    	If you're really serious about MIDI, I think that your idea
    of getting a top-notch used synth might be the best way to go if
    you can get a clean one.  As I read your note I was saying to myself
    that "If this guy could geta used KAWAI K5 for about $700.00, he'd
    have the best of all worlds".  SAM ASH was running a blow-out of
    these around the holidays for around $750.00.  I own one of these
    and can tell you that it will give you most of what you ask for,
    PLUS some things that you wish you had asked for a month later.
    In particular, the pipe organ capability of the K5 and the stock
    wind, brass, and keyboard sounds should impress you.  It may seem
    out of your price range, but unless you are just dabbling in this
    (and that's OK, too :-)) you would be well-advised to take a close
    look at this unit.
    
    	You also mentioned the K1.  Don't let the fact that it sounds
    noisy through headphones throw you.  I also had this impression
    of the K1.  If you have no intention of getting some sort of reverb
    device than you may want to avoid the K1 and other such units (eg
    ROLAND D50) because some of their "breathy" sounds do seem more
    noisy when listened to "straight up".  But if you can get over that,
    the K1 is a steal at the price.
    
    	In general, you can always buy things like sustain pedals for
    a couple bucks is you look around.  But you do want features like
    AFTERTOUCH which you will not be able to add.  Good Luck.
    
    Clusters,
    Bill Allen @MPO

RE: .*  

Thanks for the input so far!  I rushed out and auditioned the DX11 
and it did blow my socks off.  I think I'd be fully satisfied with it.
The sounds are clearly not as close as sampled ones, but they are very
clean through headphones. 

RE: .3 Trouble is, when you call Sam Ash, you get a quote of $650 + $6
shipping.  At $495, I'd probably have ordered it.  At this price, it's
better to spend the extra $40 and get it at Daddy's for $695.

(Ash price for K1 is $695, same as the Music Workshop in Salem.  K5 is $780.)

Question 1: does the DX11 have aftertouch or not?  Daddy's says no, but
     couldn't find the manual.  Noabody has brochures. Note 1182.12 says yes.

Question 2: the DX11 and the K1 have essentially identical prices.  The
     factory presents for the DX11 were quite exciting for me (I figured I 
     could use at least two dozen with no modification--at least for a
     while.)  I could not find a half dozen K1 presets that I liked (and
     the person at Music Workshop couldn't help me much)  My approach is
     definitely more classical, jazz and 60's Beatles rather than heavy metal,
     etc.  Is the K1 just the wrong beast?

$700 is pushing my limit more than I think I can at this point.  I think I 
read in this notes file that Yamaha is ready to come out with a new line
of units.  How often does Daddy's have these sales?  I can wait 6 months 
if it means that I can pick up something closer to what I want at some 
closeout price...

By the way, I found the velocity sensitivity curve for the piano presets
on the DX11 is amazingly close to real pianos.  Yamaha is getting there!

Thanks for the inputs so far.  

Alex

    
    DX11 and K1 definitely have aftertouch. In fact the keyboard on
    the DX11 is particularly good, I reckon.
    
    Richard.

	The DX11 sale for $495 was for the opening of the New Jersey store.  I 
got the information from COMMUSIC.  I don't remember who posted it, but its in
one of the early notes that Brad cleared out for that purpose.

	Dan

    
    I paid $649 for a DX11 through Sam Ash between Christmas and New
    Year.  That was after I told them ACE music would let it go for
    $650 (you might try them).
    
    DX11 definitely has aftertouch.  Also... it's misleading to assume
    you can always add on an sustain peddle.  If the synthesizer doesn't
    accept sustain information, a shotgun wouldn't make it work.
    
    I think the Korg is a great keyboard with very unusual sounds. 
    It also has a slightly better 'piano' action.  It you had that and
    a FB01, you just might go crazy.
    
    dc
    

Just finally got through to Yamaha.  

They just told me about the DS55 (DX55?) retailing at $795 that has just
come out (after asking whether they were phasing out the DX series and
coming out with a new line.  "No phase out but there are some new units.")
They're sending out information.  Sounds a lot like the DX11 but with 
more ROM and RAM.  I'll enter a note as soon as I receive it.

Re: .7

Yes note 16.23 on 7-Jan lists that price.  I assume the price is no longer 
valid.  Sigh.

Alex

    Im the one who posted the cheap dx11 price...and yes It was for 
    their opening in edison NJ..I saw the pile of boxes with the price
    so I wasn't dreaming. They ran an ad in the Feb 8 village voice
    with a dx11 price for 649$. (also: s-10 $599, K5 &779,DSS1 $995,
    FZ1 $1295, D20 $1299,K1000 $1495)
    Good luck finding a good synth. I do well looking in the want ad
    press...especially after a store like sam ash slashs a price,
    I tell the used owner "look, I can get it new for $XXX, so 1/2-2/3*XXX
    should be a good price, especially since they are being drastically
    reduced. I got cash" It has worked for me.
    By the way, the dx7 prices in the want ad press here (NJ)
    are dropping... $595 seems to be a median price. For some reason
    though the TX7 is going up in used price (must be demand)
    from $325/$350 to $375/$475
    

    re .8
    	dc is absolutely right about "a sustain pedal being useless
    if your synth doesn't support it".  It brings up a crucial point
    which I am sure you are thinking about.  Be sure to get the fullest
    MIDI implementation you can afford.  You will be glad you looked
    a little harder and maybe spent a few extra bucks.  There's nothing
    worse than realizing 3 mos down the road that your **XX!! doesn't
    respond to some MIDI data you want to use.
    
    	You can find out more about MIDI (and how to read a MIDI imple-
    mentation chart):
    	1) in any good MIDI primer (MICROSOFT has a good one out)
    	2) from chugging through this file
    	3) from talking to dealers and/or manufacturers.
    
    Clusters,
    Bill Allen 

Just received literature from Casio on the HT6000. I con't find it
anywhere in the notes file.  It appears to be mid $500s out of New York,
which makes it so far the only new unit in the "under $600" category that
seems to meet my requirements.  

Should I enter a note with all the specs?

Does anyone have this keyboard and/or know anything about it?

Alex

RE < Note 1893.12 by ALEX::CONN "Alex Conn, ZKO" >

	This is not meant as a put-down, but I think you'll find the reason why
that keyboard is not to be referenced in this notes file is because it is not
generally considered a pro class instrument.  The only pro instruments Casio 
markets are the CZ series, the new VZ series and the sampling FZ series.

	If you are hoping to avoid being disappointed again on a synth purchase,
you may find it necessary to spend a little more and get something that has
recieved the attention of this file (such as the DX11).  That is not to say that
the only synths worth discussing are discussed here, or that synths discussed
here are the only ones worth considering.  But I'd say that equipment that is 
valuable and will satisfy you over the long haul will most *likely* have been
reviewed in COMMUSIC topics.  This file has a lot of sharp people that know what
to look for and what to look out for.

	For what its worth...

	Dan

    
    
     
    Here's another idea. 
    You can get a Yamaha TX81Z rackmount for about $279. This is a DX11(?)
    without the keyboard. Then you get a midi controller. I picked up a Yamaha
    KX5 (used) for $300 last December. 
      With a beginner set-up like this, you can later add other Midi
    modules (cheaper without keyboards) or chuck the TX81Z and replace
    it with a K1r or D110 or whatever blows yer skirt up.
      Rackmount set-ups are a way of life.
    
    					Rich
    

    FWIW:
    
    I found that buying used or on blowout (discontinued) wisely is
    a good way to ease into midi and feel out what you want without
    huge initial outlay.. heres what I got (4 years ago) till now in
    steps. 
    1. CZ101 ($180 grey market NYC) + QX7 sequencer (sam ash blowout
       $175)
    2. MT44 4 track and mixer ($350, used)
    3. KX88 (new, $1300) [ a cz101 driven by a kx88!?!?, it worked well!]
    4. RX21 ($175 blowout new), + TX7 ($500 blowout new)
    5. sold tx7, bought esq-m ($500, blowout new)
    6. microverb, korg delay, various patch panels, rack mount box
       (all through want ad press cheap)
    
    By doing this, I got excellent prices, critical equipment was new
    (waranteed), but I was taking advantage of discontinued pricing.
    By doing it in steps, I could use what I had and really figure out
    what I could *use* next. I avoided melting my visa by an initial
    huge outlay.
    
    In your situation, I think a good base keyboard (dx11, dx7 used)
    would be good. Around NY, you can get a used dx7 for $600, and
    eventually add a e! upgrade. A tx81z for 279$ is a great price,
    but you cant get a decent controller for $300 to meet your $600
    goal. 
    
    Hope I havent been to long winded.
    Good luck
    Pete
    

RE < Note 1893.15 by HJUXB::LEGA "Bug Busters Incorporated" >

	I thought about what I wrote and was going to write the same alternate
approach.  If you're short on cash, watching for good buys on used equipment can
tide you over until you are able to find exactly what you want.  My story is 
much like Pete's.  I doubt, though, NOVA has enough disk space for me to list 
(even if I COULD remember it all) all the equipment I've gone through to get me
to where I am today.  I still buy and sell a bit when a deal looks good, but on 
the whole, I am very satisfied with the system I've built up in the last 4 
years.  I'd say that my buying/selling had two benefits:  1) I was able to buy
good equipment (most of the time) and learn what I really wanted by trying out
a lot of diffeerent approaches to synthesis and midi, 2) By buying mostly used
anmd not paying too much for what I bought (takes some research), I was able to 
sell things off without much (if any) loss in investement and buy what I found 
to be much more what I needed.  Of course, finding good deals requires you to 
be on your toes at all times, watching the WantAds, visiting stores, etc...  
Mostly, it requires you to have some CASH at all times, for when you find that
INCREDIBLE deal.

	Dan

    Just got the latest NJ want ad press, and thought some examples
    of prices might be useful here:
    
    dx7:
    	$600 - 201-223-8452
        $700 - 212-517-9147
        $750 - 201-333-0887 (negotiable)
    	$900 - 609-397-1684
    tx7 $350 - 201-372-0626 (dx7 in a box)
    tx81z $250 - 201-450-4699 (bet you could tell him the $279 new price
    				deal him down to $200)
    tx216 $650 201-432-5490 (negotiable, 2 dx7 in a rack)
    kx76 $400 same as above
    
    
    the tx216 looks good for around $500, anyone there have any comments
    on the 216/816? How hard/$$$ are the TF1 modules to get?
    
    Later
    Pete
    

RE: .*

Thanks for the input so far.  Keep it coming.  I have a much better idea
now what to look for.

RE: .13

I understand that the HT series is not pro class equipment.  Similarly,
the DSR and PSR Yamaha stuff are not pro class either.  The question is
whether I *need* pro gear just because it is out there.  I don't expect to
expand much in the future except in the MIDI to computer  area.   The
issue is not alone one of cost: the HT6000 lists at $1199.  The Yamaha
DSR2000 lists at  $1350.  (Compare that to a DX11!)  The point is that
these are considered "MIDI Studios" in that they  have some good
synthesizer features, some user memories, some rhythm "composer"
capabilities with memories, and even a built in sequencer on some.  They
have speakers and in general are self contained.  They would in many ways
be ideal for my vacation cottage requirement.

I definitely can't bring along a bunch of boxes.  A separate powered
speaker, maybe.  

Anyway, these boxes are out of my price range except if I can still get a
HT6000 out of New York for under $600.  The question is whether this MIDI
studio idea is a good one, or whether the "component" approach to
synthesizers is, like in audio, the only really sane way to go.  From what 
I hear in the replies so far, the answer is "yes."  

RE: 14

From what I understand, a TX81Z is not the same as a DX11.  It has the
same specs, but the 128 presets are supposed to be a lot better.  I was
quite impressed with the DX11, but have not compared it with a TX81Z.

RE: 15

Used equipment may be a good idea, if you're lucky.  The other question 
is whether I should gamble that the DX11 will go on huge sale when (if)
new models come out.

Thanks,

Alex

RE < Note 1893.18 by ALEX::CONN "Alex Conn, ZKO" >

>RE: 14
>
>From what I understand, a TX81Z is not the same as a DX11.  It has the
>same specs, but the 128 presets are supposed to be a lot better.  I was
>quite impressed with the DX11, but have not compared it with a TX81Z.

	There is no difference in the sound-creation capabilities of the DX11 
and the TX81Z.  Apart from the keyboard (and associated features), the only
difference between the two is that on the DX11, you get more RAM to store your
performance settings (and you also get a cartridge port).  If you want really
great sounds, I'd point you to Angel City patches - to me they rival sounds
you get from some of the most expensive instruments on the market.

	Dan

RE: 19:

>                                                            If you want really
> great sounds, I'd point you to Angel City patches - to me they rival sounds
> you get from some of the most expensive instruments on the market.

>Dan

Now you've really got my mouth watering!  Can you tell me more?  I did a 
dir/tit=angel and got no matches...  

I am heavily leaning toward the DX11, but I'm waiting for the literature
on the D?55.  Also, I just need to find a K5 and an HT6000 to play around
with in order to satisfy myself that I am not making a mistake...

Alex

RE < Note 1893.20 by ALEX::CONN "Alex Conn, ZKO" >

	Check out note 1200, replies .17, .19 and .25 for various reviews I've
made on third party patches.

	Dan

Great.  Now while I still wait for the brochure from Yamaha, can you tell
me the nature of the cassette interface?  Do I use any old cassette
recorder/player?  A good hi-fi deck?   Or is there special equipment used
for saving and storing DX11 stuff?

Thanks,

Alex 

    My experience with my TZ has been that unlike my QX5 (Y* sequencer)
    which does line-level dumping, the TZ puts out mic-level cassette
    dumps.  The easiest thing for me to use has been a cheapie cassette 
    deck (about $20) that has an external mic input.  I suspect the DX
    will come with the same kind of cable that my TZ did which hooks to
    one of those sub-mini mic plugs.  Ditto for the output from the
    cassette player.  If you want to go to phono-plug input/output, you 
    may have to buy an adaptor or two.  I would have liked to go to 
    line-level, but this would have required giving up a mic input on my 
    mixer.  The cheapie cassette route has been plenty reliable.
    
    Steve

      I just saw a used Roland midi controller at Rogue Music (see note
    9.4) for $320. It's one of those strap-on guitar shaped thangs like
    the KX5 I tried to steer you towards. But the keyboard is larger
    than the KX5. They also have a large selection of used keyboards
    such as Juno 2,Juno 106,Poly 61's and others in the price range
    of from $325 to $475.
    
    (While I was there I picked up a used 360 systems Midi Patcher for
    a cool $180 With the warranty card!..8 in's..yahoo).........rich
                                                 
    

RE: .*

Thanks for all the feedback you gave me on inexpensive professional
synths.

Last Friday, I stopped in Daddy's in Nashua to look again at the DX11 and
at the new DS55.  I came to the conclusion that the DS55 was closer to
what I really wanted, but that I needed V2 or V3 before it would be really 
satisfactory.  It's going to be three years or so (my guess) before
machines in this price range start to have enough polyphony so that in a
single unit you can have, say, 4 layer multitimbral retaining, say, 8-note
polyphony.  And the accompaniment in the DS55 allowed for only one or two
notes in the right hand!  It's also going to take me experience with a
synth before I really know what I wish I had and what is not particularly
useful for me.

I happened to show Tim Miller a picture of the Casio HT6000 that I had not 
located anywhere in the Boston area on display, but which had appealed to
be in the literature.  He was surprised and said they just got one in
used.  It was going for $399.  Of course, by the end of the day, I had
purchased it.  The story on the unit is in note #1917.  I am more than
satisfied so far, and would guess it will take me several months or even a 
year or two to really understand the architecture of my ideal unit.  In
the meantime, I have unit that satisfies almost every requirement in .0
(except aftertouch).  And, already, I have been able to do everything they
talk about in the manual (either the manual is good or the keys are
thoughtfully organized or both).  The more I try the better I like this
beast.  

There's got to be others in this notes file who don't really intend to
expand to MIDI studios but still want a pretty good analog synth cheap
that has some nice home features as well.   See note 1917.

Thanks to all of you in this notes file who have educated me over the past 
few months to be able to recognize the features I really wanted in a
synth.  I think I made a rational choice on Friday that I could not have
done last August.  

Alex

    re: .25
    
> There's got to be others in this notes file who don't really intend to
> expand to MIDI studios but still want a pretty good analog synth cheap
    
    Well... there's others in this conference who started out thinking
    that way...
    
    	db - MIDIholic