Conference napalm::commusic_v1

re < Note 1870.0 by CDR::BRANDEWIE "Ted Brandewie 291-8930 DFMing along!" >
              -< Simple electronic piano recommendations needed >-

	Hi Ted,
	
		If you'd like my humble opinion, if you're willing to spend
	up to $3000, I'd say get your hands on a Yamaha KX88 keyboard and
	a separate piano module (either Yamaha or Roland).  This way, your
	wife can have the 'real' feel (at least *I* think it's fairly close -
	I have one) and you can have a great time using it as a MIDI controller.
	My taste says it feels better than the Roland series pianos.
	You can probably get a KX88 for approx. $1300-1400 and a separate
	piano module for < $1000.  I think this combo would be especially
	great because it allows for *MUCH* further expansion.
		Actually, if you're willing to pay up to $4000 total, I would
	even consider getting the Kurzweil PX1000 for a sound module, for their
	piano - by far the most realistic acoustic piano sound around today 
	(my opinion).  And not only does it have great piano, but great
	everything else too!  An excellent piece of hardware. Not sure of the 
	price - probably about $1700-1800.
		The only drawback I can share is that the KX88 weighs a ton 
	(about 85 pounds in the case I have).  If you have to have 88 keys then
	expect this kind of weight for *any* electric keyboard (with a case).  
	FWIW, I can fit mine in the back of my 1980 Toyota Corolla.

	Happy hunting!
					
	Dan

    Your stereo sysytem will probably provide adequate amplification
    for hacking around quietly but it will probably be less than
    satisfactory for providing entertainment at a party. It wasn't
    designed for the dynamic range you're likly to put out. My 125W
    Yamaha integrated amp sounds fine for records, CDs, FM and tapes
    but on the few times I've connected a synth as a sound source I
    was less than pleased...
    
    Edd

    If 45 or even 125 Watts isn't enough, how much power should I plan
    to get to ensure that the amp doesn't clip the peak dynamic range?
    
    Ted
                                                
    (Note:  Please continue the electronic piano replies!!)
    

           I would vote for the Korg M1 it has a very good piano sound
           plus with the internal effects you can make some very interesting
           piano sounds. As well as many other sounds. I personnally don't
           like "piano modules" because you are limited with what you can
           do with them for the cost.   If your going to spend the money
           get a multi purpose keyboard like the M1. 

           The M1 sequencer is no great tool, but if you want to do "real" 
           sequencing you would get a QX1 type machine.
           (I mentioned the QX1 because I have one.)

           My band is switching to M1's once we finish our
           sound editing on them.  They will be replacing a DX7 and Esq1.
          
           You can get an M1 for about $2000 depending where you go.  

    Some folks in here have the Roland RD-series keyboards, integrated
    units.  I don't like the Roland action, and, to my ears, the grand
    pianos sound thin in the midrange.. you know, where the action is.
    
    As a pianist, I second the suggestion for the Yamaha KX88 keyboard
    controller and the Kurzweil 1000PX sound module.  Not only do you
    get the best digipiano on the market (IMO), you get state of the
    art choirs, strings, and (cough) decent woodwinds and (coughcough)
    crappy brass.  And it's 24 voice polyphonic, WONDERFUL for use with
    a MAC and sequencer package.
    
    As an aside, the KX88 can transmit on 2 MIDI channels at once..
    what does that give you ?  Well, I have the MIDI volume pedal set
    up to affect channel 1 only.. meaning, I can be playing 'grand piano',
    and just by pressing the volume pedal down, get a luscious swelling
    stereo string orchestra up behind the piano.. playing the same notes.
    Nice for live playing.
    
    re your stereo for a party.. if you wanna play at rock-band levels,
    obviously you need industrial-grade components (esp. speakers).
    But if you're the solo artist, and the group is quiet, you'll certainly
    be able to produce enough clean sound out of your current stereo
    to fill a (small) room.  If you have tiny speakers with 8" or less
    woofers, upgrade..
    
    karl

    re .4 - the only problem is the M1 keyboard (like almost all synth
    keyboards) doesn't feel anything like a piano keyboard, and spans
    only 5 octaves (61 keys).
    
    len.
    

    If I recollect, you said something about being portable.  Assuming that
    you want to haul this thing to parties and what not to provide
    entertainment, a lack of amplification is going to cause you heartburn.
    You're not gonna want to haul your stereo with you everywhere you go. 

    I'll echo the Kurzweil sentiments - I'm also a pianist (not as
    accomplished as Karl) and agree that the Kurzweil sounds better than
    any other piano out there.  This is not to say that the Roland RD
    series (MKS20 rackmount) or Yamaha PF series sounds bad - just that the
    Kurzweil sounds better.  Depending on how discerning your ear is, you
    may not care and would be better off spending your $$ elsewhere. 

    There are basically two routes to go - you can either go with a
    self-contained unit (everything U need in a box) or you can go with
    components (MIDI keyboard of your choice, piano module of your choice).
    The first is probably easier to deal with (if you're not into diddling
    with cords and MIDI mapping), the latter gives you more flexibility
    (eg, you like the sound of Roland pianos, but hate the keyboard feel). 

    Note 1742.16 might be a good note to read (if you didn't go that far). 

-b

>    My wife wants a "real" piano, but I've managed to convince her to
>    consider electronic pianos            
                                           
    Being a piano player I would like to advise you to be sensitive
    about presenting the benefits of an electronic piano to your wife.
    An electronic piano might be just fine if you just want to entertain
    your friends casually, but if your wife is really PLAYING the piano,
    she might have difficulties with an electronic one, regardless of
    the quality of the instrument.         
                                           
    I could not think about changing my current upright piano to an
    electronic one, but I would like to have one on top of my main
    instrument. The sad thing about the best of the electronic pianos
    is that they have no ability of responding to the internal acoustics
    of a real piano: Playing a Chopin Nocturne for example, where you 
    tend to have a heavy sustain pedal, does not sound good at all on
    an electronic piano (any of you guys out there who could prove that
    I'm wrong? If so, please let me know!).
    
    The benefits of an electronic piano are obvious. I would like to
    suggest that you would buy a real piano and an electronic one. Sad
    thing about this is that you need much more money for a top quality
    acoustic piano than you need for an electronic one.
    
    In my opinion you should think about the following, whatever you
    should decide to do: If your wife has played mainly piano 
    (opposed to organtype keyboards) you should look at the piano type 
    controllers (or pianos), not at the synth type controllers. At least
    this is how I feel at the moment, playing through a Roland D50 synth
    and lacking the piano touch.
                                       
    If your wife insists on bying a real piano, try to understand her:
    she might not be totally wrong. On the other hand, try to put the
    price/performance into the balance.
                                
                                

I would have to agree with .8.

While I think the Kurzweil pianos have the best sound, I still have found
nothing at all that rivals my Everett upright (Everett an old US piano
maker now owned by Yamaha; Everett uprights are often used at music
schools).  And my Everett does not rival a friend's Steinway grand. 
*Most* of what you're paying for in a good piano is the action; all of the
good ones have  at least a reasonable sound.  What Kurzweil has
accomplished is a fairly good imitation of a good piano sound.  In my
opinion, nobody has solved the action problem as yet.  And that's
especially important to a piano player practicing classical music. 

Echoing .8, my recommendation is to get both.  Last time I checked (1980)
a used Everett upright church model (built mid '70s) was $2500.  Maybe
it's $3000-$3500 today.  You might be able to do a lot better with an
older used piano of a different brand if you're careful.  Occasionally
somebody sells a good rebuilt older piano in a want ad for a very good
price. 

You could then get the Yamaha 5 octave velocity sensitive MIDI piano that
Consumer Reports thought was pretty reasonable for about $500.  It has
built in amp and speakers.  It has at least harpsichord as well as piano
(I think there are 5 voices).  It's very portable, usable with the
Macintosh, has headphone jack.  But to doesn't have 88 keys and weighs
less because it only has 61 keys.  Already having a piano, your wife might
find 5 octaves to be fully adequate.  (For about double that price, you
can get quite  a satisfying sound from Roland and Yamaha, but the money
might be better spent on the acoustic piano.)

If you have the room for a real piano, and your wife is good enough to
tell one piano action from another, she probably won't be happy with
anything short of a real piano. 

Alex

    re: side by side
    
    Side by side, your Everett may sound more like a real instrument
    (although not necessarily a "better" instrument).
    
    On the other hand, make two recordings, one with your Everett and
    one with the Kurzweil and I think you will find that the Kurzweil
    will always sound superior.
    
    In your "side by side" comparison, what your observing is that
    audio reproduction equipment still can't compete with the real
    thing.  But on the other hand, if your goal is to make recordings,
    I think the real thing will soon not be able to compete with
    the synthetic piano.
    
    It's very hard to capture the sound of a real piano.  I regard these
    digital pianos as having done the "capturing part".  The audio signal
    you get out of the Kurzweil is a product of technology, expertise,
    effort, and expense that users of it (including studios, musicians,
    etc) are NOT capable of generating by themselves.
    
    In simpler words, Kurzweil dumped more effort into getting the sound
    into "audio signal format" than anyone else could or "would" do for the
    sole purpose of recording a particular piece of music.

    BTW, maybe it's just me, but if I saw a Kurzweil 250G in a room with
    your Everett upright.  I would most certainly sit down and play
    the Kurzweil.
    
    An upright is still an upright.  I personally would rather play
    a good audio approximation of a "fine piano" than an upright.
    
    I own a good upright, but I never play it.  My RD-300 just sounds
    more like the piano I want than my upright.
    
    	db

    
    I concur.  RD300 is excellent action and sound.  Sure there
    are personal differences (thank goodness!) but what a unit!
    
    The only thing better would be an RD300 driving an MKS 20 
    with a bit of detuning to get more 'new-england weather'
    effect on strings.
    
    get it?
    
    ron
    

RE: the upright rathole

    I happen to own a Sohmer upright that, when properly tuned and balanced
    (which it is sadly NOT), I would put against any small grand piano
    made.  The tone and projection of the instrument is excellent. In fact,
    several people have commented on the remarkable sound of the
    instrument. 

    But, like db said, I'll take a Kurzweil for recording any day.

-b (who grew up on a 9' 1931 Steinway - {sigh})

Re: .10 (and others)

Um. Dave.  I think you *completely* missed my point.  Maybe I didn't
phrase it right.  I'll restate:

        Kurzweil pianos have excellent sound.  Compared to my Everett,
        they have better sound.  Compared to many grands they have 
        better sound.   No issue.  No contention.  But that's not the
        point for most piano players. 

The point I made in .9 is "in my opinion, nobody has solved the action 
problem as yet."  Nobody has the same feel as those hammers striking two
or three strings.  If your goal is to learn keyboard, then a good
approximation with weighted keys and velocity sensitivity and aftertouch
is fine.  

If your goal is to learn piano, however, true piano action *does* make a
difference.  If you are learning Chopin, or Liszt, or Rachmaninoff, or
Gershwin, that piano action is the difference between whether you really
can play the stuff or not.  My Everett is not up to the harder of the
Liszt pieces (and I'm not close, so it doesn't matter).  In general, only
a good grand is.  That's why people happily spend $8-12K+ for them. 

When somebody asks whether they should get an electronic piano or an
acoustic one, I believe the only proper response is this: 

       Question: is true piano action a major feature for you or is a good
                 approximation good enough?  If the individual is taking
                 lessons, have the instructor give an answer as well.

       Answer:

       If the answer was that piano action is a major feature, then (unless 
                 there are other constraints like space in an apartment, 
                 etc), then I believe the only valid recommendation is 
                 an acoustic piano (perhaps supplemented by an electronic
                 one, as mentioned in .9)

       If the answer was that the action can be a good approximation, then
                 there pianos from Kurzweil, Roland, Yamaha etc. that could 
                 all be appropriate depending on the individual's needs for 
                 good sound.

Alex

    If you go for a synth keyboard (rather than a piano action keyboard)
    then don't get one with aftertouch.  It'll spoil you. 
    
    None of my synths had aftertouch keyboards, though all were capable
    of recieving aftertouch.  
    
    Then I bought an Oberheim Xk controller 'board- which has aftertouch.
    
    I'm spoiled.  Completely and utterly spoiled by the controllability
    added by the aftertouch sensitivity (plus the attack and release
    velocity sensitivity).
    
    	-Bill  

    The best feeling non-piano keyboard I've ever played was in my old
    Yamaha CP-30 piano (alas, only 76 keys).  It played *exactly* like my
    "real" piano. 

    I have yet to find any action on any board on the market that comes
    close to that.

-b

    re : .14
    there is no feel to the hammer striking the strings.  By the time
    the hammer hits the strings, it has long disengaged from the 
    lever mechanism and it flying free.
Tom

>    < Note 1870.17 by ANT::JANZEN "Mr. MSI ECL Test" >
>              -< It's all in your imagination;get used to synths >-
>    there is no feel to the hammer striking the strings.  By the time
>    the hammer hits the strings, it has long disengaged from the 
>    lever mechanism and it flying free.

    This is a first.. I agree TOTALLY.  The clich� is that there's all
    sorts of 'feel' and tonal variation imparted by the grand piano
    action.  Sorry.  There IS a large dynamic range available in a grand,
    with the normal tonal variation associated with the velocity of
    the hammer striking the string.  But when I see pianists trying
    to get a round, 'singing' tone I almost laugh out loud.. they're
    just rolling their fingers around on the key (the note long since
    struck) and giving it the old body english.. for nothing.

    There IS a difference between a piano action and a good keyboard
    controller only in terms of repeated notes.. my KX88 isn't nearly
    as fast as I am on repeated single notes.  Other than that, it's
    always in tune, and... portable.
    
    karl    
    

    re: .17 and .18
    
    I agree completely.  I'm always amused to hear people's notions about
    what kinds of things they can impart through or from piano actions
    that can be demonstrated to be physically impossible.
    
    But on the other hand, I think you have to understand that while
    gestures like the pianist's phrasing (how you lift your hands)
    don't have a direct physical effect on the sound, they do contribute
    to the players ability to impart a "feel" to the music itself.
    
    While I've always been a fairly sedentary pianist (which I'm told makes
    me a "boring" rock performer to watch), I do do things like "lean on
    the keys", make semi-elaborate hand gestures and such.
    
    It's done subconsciously to allow yourself to get "wrapped up" in what
    you're playing.  Clearly it has no effect on the sound the piano
    produces, but it helps you get the rhythmic and dynamic aspects of
    feel into the music.
    
    	db

    You do do, eh?  &*}

-b

    Yeah, but now you have an SQ-80 which really CAN do something when
    you lean on the keys!
    
    	-Bill
    

    re: .19
    the way you lift you hand from the keyboard DOES have an effect,
    because of the way it allows the damper back on the strings.  In
    fact, you can do this is myriad ways.  It's one of the neat coloristic
    things the acoustic piano can do that electronics may not emulate
    well, but it doesn't matter.  Electronic keyboard are already FAR
    more expressive than the piano ever was.  But it's harder to learn
    to use it all.  The technique for such velocity + aftertouch +
    sideways wiggle electronic keybaords, with breath control and pitch
    bench wheels, will develop if this configuration stays the same
    for more than 2 years, and it will take more years than piano lessons
    did.
    Tom

    As a pianist with reasonable ability, I too would vote for buying
    both an electronic and a real piano. Just recently, I tried out
    the RD300s, and, as I suspected(going by comments in this
    conference) the sound was very good. What I was worried about
    before I sat down to play it was the action of the keyboard -
    would it be heavy enough? Well, it was, BUT...I could not detect
    ANY variation in touch as my hands traversed the keyboard! (The
    higher notes should have a lighter touch than the lower ones -
    they do on my piano at least.) So, my left hand felt quite
    comfortable, but my right hand felt unnatural most of the time. Do
    any  keyboards attempt to simulate this variation in touch? 
    
    BTW, I'm looking for something to supplement my upright piano -
    you know, so I can play with headphones, practice finger exercises
    without the neighbours hearing, make decent recordings, maybe get
    into synths etc etc. I want a very good piano sound - I don't mind
    if its not excellent.  Regarding the internal acoustics of a real
    piano - I plan to make heavy use of my imagination.  :-)

    Wouldn't it be nice if someone came up with a cost-effective way
    of electronically controlling the key action! I.e actually
    simulate in real time the motion of the hammers, so you would feel
    the key travelling by itself, due to the momentum of the hammer.
    (As was mentioned in another note) In my opinion, the designers
    should stop trying to improve the sound for a while, and
    concentrate on improving the feel of the keyboards.

    Ted, I realise that commenting on just one keyboard is very unfair
    on all the others ones, just felt like having my say. If it's any
    help to you, I am on the verge of buying this instrument without
    looking any further. The KX88, I have been told, will cost me more
    than a piano. (I'm in Australia.) Add to this the cost of a good
    piano module.... I think the RD300s will do me nicely as a SECOND
    piano.


    Greg Sullivan

    
    Correct me if I am wrong (and I probably am), but in a GOOD piano,
    aren't the keys in the upper registers weighted to give the same
    action as the lower registers?  My piano instructor has commented
    on this so when I am ready to buy an acoustic, I will be aware of
    some of the things to look for.  As of now all I have is a 2 year
    old KAWAI K3 which I am thinking of selling to get something 
    new. (which has a good feel for a keyboard, but does not feel at
    all like a piano)
    
    DJJ

    my los angeles piano technician said that the weight is the same.

    the hammers are lighter.  Maybe we should measure it.  All my keys
    are weigted with extra lead.
    Tom
    

RE: .17:

I edited out the original longer description of the feel of the key just
as it breaks and sends the hammer at the strings because I don't know what 
that's called.  But all piano players know what it feels like. 

Re: .*

My first note in this notes file was asking about a relatively inexpensive 
synth to use as a portable piano and to use when I could not play my real
piano without waking up the family.  Here's what I was told:

Note 1345.13:

	Also - don't fall into the trap that a synth is a portable piano -
    they  are DEFINITELY NOT!  I suffered through that syndrom for more
    than a year, until I finally came to the conclusion that most of my
    piano-playing skills were NOT transferrable to my synth.  You have to
    learn to play them differently.  Not only are the sounds different
    (unless you get a digital piano type - mucho $$), but the feel is
    different.  You have to re-think how you play, even though the keys
    look the same.

I think this is as right now as it was six months go.  Synths are fun,
they sound good, they may be even better instruments in many ways than an
acoustic piano.  That's why I plan to buy one.  That's why I read this
notes conference.  

But I don't think it's accurate to tell a piano player to get a synth
rather than an acoustic piano without warning that person that as of January
1989, at least, synths have not been able to duplicate the feel of acoustic 
pianos.  (I have not seen the new Yamaha series.)

Now I'll shut up and listen to you experts...  :-)

Alex

    I measured (somewhat crudely) the resisting force of my JX-10 keyboard
    by stacking nickels on the key until it got depressed.  A nickel
    weighs about 5 grams.  I measured the force this way at about 85 to 90
    grams.  This is about 3 ounces for you nonmetric types.  Then gobs
    of additional force (couldn't stack nickels that high) is necessary
    to get into the aftertouch regime.  The aftertouch works over a
    range of about 5 millimeters (a little less than 1/4").
    
    len.
      

RE: .26 (haven't seen the new Yamaha gear yet)

    Alex, the CP-30 that I alluded to earlier was introduced in 1977. They
    haven't made them since about 1979.  And I still think that that board
    has come as close as any I've ever played to a piano. 

    Of course, I never gave it the offical Fehskens Nickel Test, so my
    opinion is purely subjective. 

-b

    Anyone out there got anything to say about the KORG CONCERT SERIES
    pianos?  Brand new.  Heard the CONCERT 600 (sampled from a Steinway).
   
    dc
    

RE < Note 1870.30 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Yo!" >

	This is interesting.  Not to confound the discussion, but there is one
electronic piano (or series of electronic pianos) that seem to acurately
reproduce the action of a piano - The Yamaha Clavinova series.  

	If you ever go into one of the 'mall-type' piano stores that carry
Yamaha instruments, they will probabaly have a few of these (if they haven't 
been discontinued).  They also usually have a cutout section of their key/hammer
action that visually demontrates their reproduction of the acoustic piano
mechanism.  

	I have to say that it was VERY good.  You actually felt the releasing of
whatever mechanisms you normally feel when playing an acoustic.  I've seen no 
other units with this degree of accuracy.

	Dan Eaton

    Actually, I've seen that (at Daryl's Music Hall in Nashua), although
    it still doesn't feel "difficult to distinguish from a real piano
    to me.
    
    I've deleted .30 btw (what Dan replied to).  I decided that I don't
    want to get involved in a discussion about "realistic" piano actions.
    I'm simply not open minded enough on this issue.
    
    	db

    the "release" of "something" you feel in a real action is when the
    abstract pushes against the wippen and the wippen takes off.
    Tom

    Hey, I'm just comparing the action to OUR piano(a Schwechten), so
    I admit that I may be looking for a keyboard that simulates a
    DEFECT. I have never played a truly GOOD piano, I don't think, but
    having the action the same right across the keyboard certainly
    makes more sense - no need to adjust your touch as your hands move
    over the keys. My instructors never discussed piano action with
    me.

    I should also have mentioned that the "shock to the system" that I
    experienced when playing the RD was not TOO much greater than if I
    played another make of REAL piano. They're all different!

    Oh, there's something else. Our piano feels "shallow" when
    compared to the RD; the keys on the RD seemed to travel further
    down. Another defect?

    Defects or no defects, I would still like to see a programmable
    keyboard action, and I don't think this idea is as way out as it
    sounds. If done well, the "weighted" keyboards would weigh no less
    than a synth.

    Greg.

    Obviously, the thing to do is take a "real" piano keyboard/action,
    and instead of the hammers hitting strings, they could hit little
    drum-pad-like sensors.
    
    len.
    

    Greg, there is a marked difference in "key travel" (what I think you
    called depth) depending on the difference in make/quality of the pianos
    being compared.  Once you get into high-end units (Yamaha, Steinway,
    etc), the difference is much less discernable.  I think I'm safe in
    saying that if the Roland "felt long" to you, your current piano is
    probably short.

    I just played a Packard (that's right - I never heard of one either 8-)
    grand a few weeks ago at my brother's wedding, and the key travel was
    *very* short compared to the units I'm used to playing.  I've also
    recently played Kimball and Wurlitzer spinets that had a shorter throw
    than my Sohmer (or KX76, for that matter!). 

    As an aside, there is a company called KeyTek (a division of Gibson, I
    think) that makes a controller that features a "real piano action" and
    is "adjustable", according to ads.  Never having played (or even seen)
    one, I can't comment, other than to say I'm skeptical. 

-b

Ted,
	
	Are you still out there?  I'm curious to know if you and your
wife have made any progress in your decision?

Dan	

re .35	   Like, make an oct_a_octy (88) pad ?

	Somewhen around the time I bought my KX88 I thought someone in 
THIS conference said that the action was from the Yamaha C5 ?  and/or
I read it in some glossy blurb, but then again, maybe they just said
that was the action they had tried to copy...???

	Reg

    Opened up the Oxford Companion to Music(10th edition). Said that
    someone or other had done a kind of survey of the actions of
    different pianos - I don't have the book with me at the moment,
    but this bloke found that the finest pianos had a lighter touch at
    the upper registers.(I think that it was 3-4 oz. at the bottom,
    leading to 2-3 oz. at the top(uprights), with the grands being
    slightly heavier.) Fairly sure they are talking static values
    here.(i.e like the "coin test"). I have no idea exactly WHEN the
    survey was done.

    I'll type in the relevent section word for word if anyone is
    interested. I hope Ted and his wife are learning something from
    this discussion, because I certainly am.

    Greg.

    People might be interested to know that the actions of most finer
    pianos are all made by the same company, Rennert.
    
    However, most piano makers take the Rennert actions and customize
    them in some way.
    
    	db

    Note that the static resisting force and dynamic resisting force
    should be virtually identical for a nonviscous action.
    
    One Friday night (or was it already Saturday morning) after a few
    [;^)] brews I started thinking about how to "objectively" characterize
    a keyboard/action's "feel".  In particular I was curious about what
    distinguished "velocity" from "aftertouch" on a synth keyboard,
    and why certain keyboards felt the way they do.  That led to the
    "nickel test" on my JX-10, to get some idea of what kinds of forces
    and distances were actually involved.  That led to notion that force
    and distance were really all there was to talk about, that viscosity
    (resistive force dependent on velocity (i.e., rate of change of
    distance)) should not be a factor, and mapping resistive force as
    a function of key movement could adequately characterize the keyboard's
    feel.
    
    Within the limitations of "alphanumeric graphics", here's what I
    believe goes on:
    
          |
          |                    *
          |
          |
       F  |
       O  |                   *
       R  |
       C  |
       E  |                  *
          |
          |                 *
          |*****************
          |
          +---------------------------------------------
           
                          D I S T A N C E
    
    Distance means the amount the key has been depressed.  The force
    is more or less constant over the "velocity-measuring" range.  On
    my JX, this was about 15 mm of distance, 85 or 90 grams of force.
    Then the force rises quite dramatically, in the "aftertouch-measuring"
    (or "pressure-measuring") range.  On the JX, this spans about
    5 mm, and the force was much higher than I could measure with a
    stack of nickels.
    
    The sharpness of the break between these two ranges, the steepness
    of the aftertouch slope, and the slope (if any) of the velocity range
    together determine the feel of the keyboard.
    
    Note that any velocity dependence (viscous effects) in the feel
    would be felt as "stickiness" of keystroke, and fast playing would
    be increasingly difficult.
                                                     
    len.
    

    
    Whatever it was you were drinking, I'll have one.
    
    Richard.

    I think it was probably Kirin, imported from, of all places, Canada.
    
    len.
    

	I've been reading the replys to this note so long, that
	I've lost track of who wrote it. But for what it's worth, I 
	just bought at Yamaha CVP8 clavinova (wanted a DX7...but you
	can't really teach a 3 year old to play the synth). Has a 88
	keys and MIDI and a teach/ROM mode and sequencer (primative).
	Now I have the option of being able to use it as a contoller
	for future add-ons.

	Quite happy with the keyboard action. I did compare the Korg,
	Roland and Techincs pianos before I bought, and liked the 
	Yamaha the best.

	-Larry
	

	Re: -.1

	We have lots of good brews "up" here. (London, Ontario....home
	of Labatts Breweries)

    

\

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217?~-!73?@@!255A!103A!4B!218AB---\

    Re .40
    
    As db stated, many piano manufacturers use Renner actions. As far
    as I know, Renner does not manufacture pianos but acts as a supplier
    of the "machinery".
          
    Steinway, Boesendorfer, Grotrian-Steinweg and Schimmel among many
    other manufacturers use Renner. The customizing that db mentioned 
    is new to me, but I have heard that some manufacturers have a higher
    priority than others in selecting the machineries from Renner's
    stock.                        
                                  
    The action IS nice, and the price is high. I think that a good action
    could be produced more cost-efficiently (far eastern pianos don't
    use Renner as far as I know). 
    
    Eerik
                           

    One thing I really like about my Roland piano(yes, I bought one!) is
    the effect of the sustain pedal. When I read in 374.? that the Roland
    range attempted to simulate sympathetic resonance, I expected that the
    sustain pedal would simply apply a fixed change of timbre - just a
    strengthening of some harmonics . What I hear, when repeatedly striking
    the same note with the "same" force, with the sustain pedal down, is
    certainly not "fixed". Successive notes sound quite different - they
    resonate at different frequencies. The result is that the sound
    "swells", in a similar way to a real piano. I suppose this happens
    because the sound that is produced by striking a string which is
    already vibrating, changes according to the "state" of the string when
    the hammer actually hits it.

    Tried to see if I could detect a pattern in the varying resonant
    frequency - while doing this I realised that the effect might be produced
    by making certain aspects of the timbre *much* more velocity sensitive.

    Greg.

>    < Note 1870.47 by ARNHEM::SULLIVAN >
>                     -< repeated notes with sustain pedal >-
>    What I hear, when repeatedly striking
>    the same note with the "same" force, with the sustain pedal down, is
>    certainly not "fixed". Successive notes sound quite different - they
>    resonate at different frequencies. 
    
    I am a former Roland owner.  I believe what you're hearing is the
    same note being played by multiple DACs (digital-to-analog converters),
    and hearing a subtle chorusing or phasing imposed by the slight frequency
    differences (a piano string is sharp when struck, then flattens
    to the mean frequency) of the overlapping notes.
    
    This happens on all electronic representations of pianos.

    Karl, I disagree. The Rhodes  setting does it too - and Rhodes pianos
    have only one "string" per note. Until recently, I owned an old Rhodes, and
    the timbre of repeated notes with sustain would change so much that
    sometimes the sound would almost die completely - probably a characteristic
    common to all Rhodes; I don't know.

    Greg.

>    < Note 1870.49 by ARNHEM::SULLIVAN >
>    Karl, I disagree. The Rhodes  setting does it too - and Rhodes pianos
>    have only one "string" per note. 
  
    You misunderstand me.  The Roland 'Rhodes' sound uses DACs, too, and 
    thus the chorusing effect from multiple DACs playing the same note.    
    
>    Until recently, I owned an old Rhodes, and
>    the timbre of repeated notes with sustain would change so much that
>    sometimes the sound would almost die completely 
        
    I had a Rhodes for many years, and remember this phenomenon.  It's
    like the hammer acted as a damper on the tine.  However, it's unrelated
    to the chorusing effect mentioned above.

karl

>    I am a former Roland owner.  I believe what you're hearing is the
>    same note being played by multiple DACs (digital-to-analog converters),
>    and hearing a subtle chorusing or phasing imposed by the slight frequency
>    differences (a piano string is sharp when struck, then flattens
>    to the mean frequency) of the overlapping notes.

    I think it is lot more than this. There is a clearly audible resonance
    which stays the same for the duration of each note, but which changes
    frequency upon hitting the same note again, but *only* when the pedal is
    down. Repeated notes without the pedal sound the same. I think it is meant
    to be the combination of sympathetic resonance and striking a string which
    is already vibrating(without stopping it completely first). The effect
    actually consumes a voice - with 15 other notes held down the note sounds
    the same as it does without the pedal. (PIANO 1 on the RD300s)

    Anyway, the main point I'm trying to make is that the effect is quite
    realistic. There is some hope if you are looking for a piano with an
    authentic sustain sound.

    
    (In case anyone still doesn't know what I mean, it sounds something like
    this: DING, DANG, DONG :-) )

    Greg.

    Re:  .37 & .38
    
    Yes Dan & Greg, I am still out here and I too have learned a great
    deal from all these responses.  I showed my wife the replies     
    thru .30 and told here she needed to try the various models to see
    if the action, tone, etc. would be acceptable.  From all the input
    we know there will be no easy answer.  My car pool buddy    
    just bought a KX 76, and my wife will be trying that out first.
    We will make a particular effort to try out the Yamaha Clavinova
    due to replies .31 & .44.                                   
                                                                
    Thanks for all the great info!!
    
    Ted    

re   < Note 1870.0 by CDR::BRANDEWIE "Ted Brandewie 291-8930 DFMing along!" >
              -< Simple electronic piano recommendations needed >-

	I don't know where you're located Ted, but Boston Piano and
Organ has Clavinovas and  "Physical pianos"  (Samicks, I think) in the
same showroom on Rte #9 in Natick.   Also Darrells (sp ?) in Nashua,
right near the bridge, if you want to A/B against Yamaha grands.

	R

    Re: .53
    The A/B comparison is a good idea; it's the only way to shop for
    speakers and it makes sense to apply it to pianos.  However, since
    I'm hoping she'll choose an electronic, we'll avoid the stores with
    Steinway & Yamaha grands!!        
                                     
    Ted

re  < Note 1870.54 by LRNLAB::BRANDEWIE "Ted Brandewie 291-8930 DFMing along!" >
              -< A/B comparison good idea, but void the grands!! >-

>    Re: .53
>    The A/B comparison is a good idea; it's the only way to shop for
>    speakers and it makes sense to apply it to pianos.  However, since
>    I'm hoping she'll choose an electronic, we'll avoid the stores with
>    Steinway & Yamaha grands!!        
                                     
>    Ted


	Well, I'd advise you to NOT avoid such stores.  I believe you will
find the electronic pianos to be fully price competitive with the physical
pianos.  Sure, if price (and space) is no object, etc, etc... but within
reasonable limits (I think you mentioned ~$7K) the electronics will stand up to
A/B ing and BTW if in your opinion they don't you might as well BOTH know it
before plunking down any green stuff. 

	Reg

{Oh std disclaimer about not trying to tell you how to make purchase
decisions, and its YOUR money not mine, etc  -  just tryin' to help}

My wife and I want to buy a keyboard.  Jean doesn't particularly care if it's
electronic or not, but it must subscribe to the basic characteristics outlined
in the base note:

	o 88 keys, weighted, piano like, etc.
	o excellent grand piano sound

I agree completely with that.  However, as I type this on my Mac, I must confess
that I already have latent MIDI addiction syndrome.  I drool when I read reviews
of MIDI software for the Mac and sequencers and drum machines...

Here's what we've looked at so far:

	o Korg sampled grand
	o Korg C7000 (deluxe sampled grand)
	o Roland R300 (?) digital piano

We both liked the sound of the Korg pianos and we both disliked the feel of the
Roland.  We're each willing to compromise a little if we can find something we
both like.

We're willing to spend between $2000 and $4000.  The upper limit is basically
the price at which it becomes cheeper to buy two separate keyboards.

From reading the rest of this conference, it sounds like we should also look
at either a KX88 or Kurzweil Midiboard with a 1000PX.  Or would we just be
wasting our time?  If not, other than the 1000PX, is there something else we
should be looking at?

	re. .56,

	I've got the KX88/1000PX setup and love it.  If Guitar Center still
	has any PX's left, then for under $2000 you could have an excellent
	88 weighted key controller and an SGU that has (IMO) the best piano
	and some really great strings, woodwinds, etc.  Try calling Caruso's
	or Sam Ash for the KX88.

	Dan

	PS See the 'Latest Hot Price Quote' for details on the $700 blowout
		on the Kurzweils.

...should have added, where can I go to try out the Kurzweil stuff?  I'll
drive anywhere within an hour or so of Nashua or to Boston.

Derrell,
	Daddy's in Nashua usually has a K-series unit.  The electronics (sound)
are the same across them all, so you could even listen to a keyboard version.
Daddy's is on Daniel Webster a bit north of, and across from the Pheasant Lane
Mall.  I'm not sure that they have one at the moment.

Talk to Tim Miller if he is around and mention Chad Leigh, Dave Blickstein or
me.

	Eirikur

Derrell,

	I live right across the street from ZKO; how's that for convenient?
	I'll be able to show you both the Kurweill 1000PX and the Y* KX88.
	Your wife's welcome also :^) :^) :^)

Dan

    It is my understanding that Daddy's won't have Kurzweil that much
    longer.  They may still have a 1000PX+ available but they wanted $1395
    or so last I heard.  The 1000PX+ is a 1000PX with more buttons and
    extra soundblock (retails separately for $495 for 1000pX) with perhaps
    some other minor differences.  Tim mentioned last week that the last
    Midiboard was sold in Boston.
    
    Acton Music on RT27 direction of Maynard carries Kurzweil.  The DECMS
    contact there is Jack Colburne I believe.  It is the big blue
    church-like thing.
    
    Chad
    
    who_likes_his_1000PX_but_doen't_particularly_like_kx88_feel��

Hi,

I just got through this dilema (finally).  I would take up MIDI::DAN's offer
to check out the KX88/1000PX setup (I saw it last Saturday!  Thanks again,
Dan).  You'll have a tough time finding a KX88 in the stores around here.

I called Caruso's first.  They had a used KX88 with hard case for $1300.
Claimed it was in mint condition.  Since I was ordering through the mail, I
didn't really want to go used, and I suspected I could get a better price
elsewhere.  They wanted $1495 for a new one.

I ordered my KX88 from Sam Ash for $1299, new.

The keyboard is on it's way now.  I felt it was a good price/performance
compromise.  My favorite was the A80.  I love the feel of that keyboard (same
as the RD300).  However, the MIDI features are much more than I need, and the
price tag is just a bit too high ($2000 at Wurlie's in Framingham was about
the best deal I could find on it).  The KX88's keyboard is not quite the same
as the A80's, but it was good enough for me (certainly not a $700 difference
between the A80 and KX88), and the MIDI features seem to be better matched
for my needs.

As far as sequencers for Mac go, I also ordered Master Tracks Pro V3.? and the
Studio +2 MIDI interface from some mail-order place in CA.

You've come to the right place for advice on getting started.  It's taken me
months to decide on the right configuration for me, and I'm very grateful to
those in this notesfile who have helped me out.

Jim

>    < Note 1870.61 by NORGE::CHAD "Ich glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tte" >
>                                -< some hints >-
>
>    It is my understanding that Daddy's won't have Kurzweil that much
>    longer.  
    
    That's right, Daddy's has dropped Kurzweil.  They are taking on
    the Korg home pianos to replace the Kurzweil Ensemble Grande.  The
    expander boxes were getting whipped by machines like the Roland
    U-110 (price-wise) so they just figured to get out of the line.

    						Brian

Well, I blew off yesterday and drove down to Boston to look at keyboards. 
Here's some subjective info for others who are going through this...

Daddy's has dropped the Kurzweil line.  They say, because Kurzweil wanted them
to stock a certain number of each component in each of Daddy's 9 stores and a 
lot of their high end stuff just doesn't turn over that quickly.  The last
Midiboard is at their Boston store (near Berkeley Performance Center).  (E.U.
Wurlizer (next to Tower Records on Newbury St.) also had a Midiboard.)

I played around with the A80 at Daddy's and fell in love with it.  It doesn't
feel anything like the other Roland keyboards I've played with.  I don't care
much for the keyboard feel on the rest of the Roland line, but I did like this
one.  And it's loaded with features.  More features than you know what to do
with.  I like that in electronic equipment.  It sort of strikes me as the
Macintosh of controller  boards.  All of its functions are accessible through
menus on the large warm and friendly LCD display.  They even included a Panic
botton (which sends Note Off and reboots the board)!

Daddy's wanted 21xx for it, EUW and LaSalle's, the same.  LaSalle's has a couple
of demo units coming in that they used for some sort of summer music workshop
that they'll sell for 2K.  That isn't much of a deal for me because I'd have to
pay sale's tax if I bought it in Boston.  Unfortunately, Jean didn't like the
feel of it as much as the Korg C7000, so I think we've ruled that out.

I didn't find any KX88's on my quest, however Dan graciously invited me over to 
listen to his setup later this week.

I did find one PX1000 at EUW's.  It did sound very nice.  It was a little hard
to hear over the din of folks next to me who were jamming, but it sounded as
good as the Korg sampled grand.  The one I listened to was already sold.  They
had one more but wanted ~1900 for it.  I'm into supporting the local shops, but
for 1200, I'll mail order...

Other random observations.  I didn't like the feel of the one Midiboard I played
with. It was too light and clunky.  It's user interface also was no match for
the A80.  I also didn't like the feel of the Kurzweil H1000 (?).  I just don't
like  non-weighted keyboards, I guess.  Of the three salesmen I spoke with in
Boston, two owned the A80.

The Tuesday meeting beckons, later...

>< Note 1870.64 by VMSINT::PIPER "Derrell Piper - VMS Development" >
>
>I played around with the A80 at Daddy's and fell in love with it.  

To each his own, I guess. I hated the A80 action. Way too sluggish and 
mushy feeling. In my opinion, not anything like what a real grand piano feels 
like. ...and heavy!!! I'd never want to take that out on gigs! I do like 
the display and functionality, though.

I thought the whole idea behind the Kurzweil Midiboard was that you can 
change the action on it to suit your taste. Am I way off base here, or can 
you really adjust the action on a Midiboard?

Personally, I like the action on the Korgs. I wish they would come out with
a real controller.


Mike D

Don't forget Daddy's in Nashua.  SAves you sales tax!!  And they can get stuff
from any of their other stores and they are only 3 minutes from ZK.

Chad

RE: action on the Midiboard

Oh really?  I have no idea.  I couldn't get anyone to help me so I just played
around with it on my own...  There were only about 1000 buttons on the thing...

The adjustment on the Kurzweil MIDIboard is not a mechanical one, but only
electronic that effects velocity sensitivity.  The mechnaixal feel of the
keyboard doesn't change.

	- Jim

>< Note 1870.68 by RTL::DESK::TOTTON >
>                            -< Action on MIDIboard >-
>
>
>The adjustment on the Kurzweil MIDIboard is not a mechanical one, but only
>electronic that effects velocity sensitivity.  The mechnaixal feel of the
>keyboard doesn't change.

I knew someone would clarify that sometime. Thanks for the info (I knew it 
was too good to be true).

Mike D

There is a board with mechanical adjustments for touch.

GTZ or some such name.
Keyboard gave one away this spring as part of the giveaway.

Chad

    Well, folks, I'm the person who got this started with the request for
    digital piano recommendations, and my wife did decide on the Roland
    HP-4000s.  She's had it about 6 months and thoroughly enjoys it!  I 
    couldn't reply because I was at school for 9 months and didn't have a 
    computer account.  Thanks for all the recommendations; they really
    helped us make an informed purchase.
    
    Ted