Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Yamaha has a box called MDF-1 (for MIDI Disk Filer) that holds SYSEX
    dumps on 2.8" quick disks. Depending on the size of the dump from the
    RX, it should be *very* easy to load between songs (with a bit of
    planning) with this unit. 

    Unless I miscalculated, it should take about 10-15 seconds for a 32K
    SYSEX dump, including disk lookup time.

-b

    .1 assumes the RX-17 can dump/load sysex.  Before investing in a
    disk you might want to confirm this.
    
    Disks are also quite a bit more reliable than tapes, and far more
    convenient, so I hope the RX-17 is capable of sysex transfers.
    
    Some disk-equipped sequencers can also handle sysex dumps, so if
    you already have such a sequencer you may already be in business.
    
    len.
    
    
    

    I use a Yamaha Midi Disk Filer (using Quick Disks). It should take
    no more than 15 seconds to fully reload your drum machine (if it does
    allow for this). I'll warn you, you probably won't be able to pick the
    six songs that you will always play together very well. The  MMT-8
    sequencer (which I use heavily) holds between 4 and 6 songs, but I'll
    be d*mned if I can ever get more than 2 in a row out of any of the
    20 or so disks that I've put together. Since the disk loader takes
    less time to load shorter sequences than long ones, I would suspect
    that you can live with the performance for just drum parts (I load in
    drums, bass, and anything else that I need for the performance & still
    get 4 to 6 songs onto a single track on the Quick Disk). My only
    complaints are: The Disks don't hold very much (60 KB - thats only
    85% capacity of my MMT-8), and the disks are not cheap (usually $4.00
    to $6.00 each), but you can use both sides.

    As len Suggested, you might want to look into disk based sequencers,
    as I suspect that you will spend $200.00 to $300.00 for the MDF, and
    I've seen MC-500's for $450.00 (used) as of late.  At some later time
    you might like to add sequencer controlled SGU's to your act (you know
    how addictive this stuff gets).

    Isn't MIDI fun?? It sure ain't cheap!!!

							Jens

    I don't know if this is a good solution for you, but I use my Ensoniq
    SQ-80 to do all sequencing.  There are so many advantages:
    
    	o It is both a multi-timbral synth and a sequencer.  This means 
          less gear to carry, less connections to make during setup.
    
    	o It has its own disk drive which CAN be used to take MIDI dumps
    
    	o It has plenty of memory for this kind of thing.  I can typically
    	  do about 7 songs per disk INCLUDING drums.  So you never even
    	  have to bother with MIDI dumps which introduces more risk.
    
    	o It can be use to "configure" your entire MIDI rig (i.e. setup
    	  patch changes, relative volume level).   In fact, I even rely
    	  on it to do patch changes DURING songs.
    	
    	o It has some builtin drum sounds.  What it has probably does not 
    	  eliminate your need for a drum machine (depends on your needs),
    	  but you can use it to supplement it.
    
    	o The Ensoniq documentation is beyond great, it's almost legendary.
    	  I learned what I know about MIDI mostly from the Ensoniq manual.
    
    	o The unit is quite easy to learn and use.  It's widely touted
    	  to be one of the most user friendly interfaces around.
    
    The SQ-80 can be had for around $1600.
    
    Another unit you might want to give serious consideration to is the
    Korg S1.
    
    BTW, my experience tells me that if you expect to rely on tape dumps 
    at gigs you're out of your mind.  Don't!

    Thanks for all the tips.info.  I should probably have mentioned
    that we're making a concious effort to be a simple, lo-tech,
    performance-oriented band.  The descision to use the drum machine
    at all was made mainly as a concession to volume control, so we'd
    probably tend to favor the simplest solutions.  (I'm beginning to
    see how this stuff snowballs - we figured we'd buy a drum machine,
    program it, and that would be it!)  I had considered picking up
    something like a COMPAQ, setting it up with a midi controller, &
    using that to download the data, but after working with computers
    all week, I'd rather not have one looming in the background when
    I try to play my music!
    					joe

    Before we all write off tape as utterly impossible, let me say that
    I *have* used cassette tape as a bulk storage medium for live
    performance, though from the experience I'd prefer a faster, easier
    solution.  But it *does* work, and it *is* cheap.  My old three
    piece band used to use sequenced synths to fatten our sound (rather
    than add a keyboard player and further dilute our earnings), and
    it allowed some flexibility in arrangements.  Sometimes the bass
    player would pick up a 6-string and we'd use one of the synths to
    play bass.  We tried to keep a few purely "acoustic" numbers in
    each set so there was some space to cope if things weren't working
    right.  Mostly, things worked.  In a 12 tune set, we'd do maybe
    6 to 8 sequenced tunes.  We had to use two sequencers (an MSQ-100
    and an MSQ-700) to hold a whole set's worth of material, and we
    loaded them both from tape during the breaks.  We carried two extra
    copies of the tapes, stored in different places, just in case.
    
    len.
    

    Another factor in your favor is that many rock tunes follow a fairly
    pat formula; intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, break...etc.
    
    My point is that a drum track *could* do duty on more than 1 song.
    Sure, it's "cheating". So what? Average Joe likely won't care....
    
    Edd

    Opinion: if you're looking for a MIDI computer, get an AtariST. Builtin
    MIDI ports, free SYSEX dumping software here on the net, easy to carry
    around, and a heckuva lot cheaper than any other computer-based
    solution that I know of. 

    And yes, it mushrooms like an A-bomb.

-b

Interesting topic!

I'm wondering about sequencing in a live situation too. What do you do for
backup in case some drunk spills a Pina Colada into the disk drive of your
sequencer while requesting a Tony Orlando song? (besides strangling them. ;-})
Do you do an acoustic tape backup of all your sequenced material, just to be
able to throw it onto a tape deck and continue? (a la Timbuk Three.) Are there
other tricks that don't require buying two of everything? 

					wondering
					Mark

    Well, given that I mostly play in church, I've not had too much trouble
    with people spilling drinks.  &*}

    Anyway, the band I used to play in usually suffered more from internal
    stupidity than external.  Someone would spill a Dr. Pepper or step on
    something that wasn't put up/out of the way.

    In the case of "perishables", I learned to keep things as far away from
    everyone (and as close to me) as possible.  Cord and mic boxes build a
    very effective fort.

-b

    Well, since I'm the only non-teatotler in my band, I should probably
    keep the stuff away from ME  (ever notice how speakers attract bottle
    caps like a, err, magnet?)  In any case, re [.6], that's about the
    approach I had in mind.  Two identical drum machines, two or more
    cheapie tap players (I have three laying around myself), and two
    sets of tapes, arranged with 6 songs on each.  Even thought there
    might be some redundancy, I'd rather save it that way, so we don't
    have to think too much on the job.  Just load them in numerical
    order.  Also, I suspect that the tape/player combination is probably
    more suitable for being hauled around than anything involving a
    disk drive.  Also, I tend to program songs in stages.  First we
    find a tempo, and the first run through the song is just done to
    a click track.  Then we pick a basic pattern.  Next, we program
    the song with just the one pattern, incorporating visual cueing
    for the start, and any essential stops, starts, accents, etc.  Finally,
    we work on varying the basic pattern, adding fills, etc.  I'm starting
    to maintain a list of the basic song structures, which usually end
    up consisting of less than a dozen parts, so that, in a real pinch,
    I could actually punch in something workable inbetween sets.
    
    							jb

>    < Note 1869.8 by DYO780::SCHAFER "Brad - back in Ohio." >
>                           -< 2� in favor of Atari. >-
>    And yes, it mushrooms like an A-bomb.

    Uh, is that an Atari-specific term ?  

    
    
    you could also buy your drum machine with the express intent of
    using at as a performance instrument. Some of the machines I have
    seen have a very economical method of soring pattern information.
    And the patterns can be anything up to 999 bars long. Thus each
    pattern could be a song !. I have seen a band locally use an RX21
    for this purpose and go through a whole half hour set without
    reloading. As I woned one of these at the time I did ask the guys
    how they managed this with such a limited (excuse me RX21 owners)
    machine. The above is the answer. Any machine which allows you to
    append patterns should work. The other answer would be memory cards.
    Which load instantly.   
    
    				Paul.

    The stateside version of the RX-21 will support *1* measure per
    pattern, up to a max of 8 1/4 notes in a pattern.
    
    Edd

    re: .14
    
    Intuitively that seems like anything BUT an "economical" (in terms
    of memory) way to store patterns.  It might be economical in terms
    of saving pattern slots, but not memory.
    
    Part of the idea behind patterns is that repeated figures need only
    reside one place in memory.  Any number of songs can use the same
    pattern any number of times without increasing the memory utilization.
    
    By appending patterns together you are never saving memory and almost
    certainly burning it up faster.  If you append the same pattern twice,
    you are definitely using up more memory.
    
    	db

    re .14 - well, at least one thing that Paul said is valid, and that's
    that memory cards or cartridges can help considerably in cramming
    a set's worth of material into a drum machine.  My much-maligned
    but still beloved TR-707 only holds four songs and 64 patterns (each
    no more than 2 to 5 1/3 beats long (depending on resolution)), but
    plugging in an M64-C cartridge triples that capacity to 12 songs
    and 192 patterns.  The only restriction is that songs can only share
    patterns within a 4 song "bank"; the machine holds 3 banks (2 in
    the cartridge, 1 internally).  So, during the break (assuming you
    can get by with 12 songs' worth of machine drumming), you do three
    tape loads, transferring the first two into the cartridge.
    
    len.
     

    To repeat what Len said, I used to have a 707 with a 3rd party
    cartridge equivalent to 4 * M64C (or whatever they're called). 

    That's 36 songs at the flip of a few switches ... it's the one machine
    that I *never* had to reload live. 

-b

    
    
    re- ??
    
    Sorry been out for days...
    
    Yes you are right one pattern but multiple repeats which can save
    oodles of space as all that is stored~r in songmode- is pointers
    to the original pattern. As I said I saw it done. 
    
    Still hated the Snare drum though.
    
    					Paul

    re: .19
    
>    Yes you are right one pattern but multiple repeats which can save
>    oodles of space as all that is stored~r in songmode- is pointers
>    to the original pattern. As I said I saw it done. 
    
     ????
    
    I can't understand the first sentence.

    
    
    Re -1
    
    Easy !
    
    You just key in pattern n and repeat n times.
    
    So with 8 patterns you could in theory create a whole song using
    the repeats.
    
    					Paul

    
    	RE:18 
    
    	I Bought Brad's memory cart. I stuffed about 2 sets of songs
        on that and it served me well.
    
    	Guy Novello.