Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    I just saw one at Rogue Music N.Y.C. used..going for $695?
    They do mail order...phone # is 212-239-8448 if you're interested.
    It *is* built like a tank.

    An R8 *used* already?  Why would somebody have given it up already?
    When I was looking for my Matrix-1000 a month ago, Rogue hadn't
    a price ... 'too new' they told me.  I don't know if I like the
    humanization stuff.  I'd rather add that myself from the sequencer
    or via keyboard.
    
    Steve (yawn)

    >.0  "...I'm getting in line."
    
    Len is destined to be the only person in the history of MIDI to
    use a real drum kit in order to save space.
    
    Edd

RE < Note 1864.0 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >

>    It's built like a tank.  The velocity sensitive buttons are large
>    and have a nice feel.  It's easy to evoke the full range of dynamics.

	One thing that may not be obvious to the reader is that these buttons
evoke aftertouch.  I tried one out the other day - held down the 'roll' button
and pressed the snare button.  The harder I pressed, the louder the roll and
likewise, the more I let up, the volume decreased.

	Does anyone know if they have a way to implement this humanization
feature on the roll (perhaps in real time?).  The reason I bring it up is 
because the roll still sounded very mechanical due to the absense of strong-
arm/weak-arm interaction.

	Dan

    There is an "edit nuance" feature.  I don't know how it works. 
    I didn't fool around with the sequencer, but my guess would be that
    the humanization stuff involves the sequencer.  One question I have
    is whether the full spectrum of humanization features can be evoked
    from an external sequencer.
    
    Regarding an earlier comment about preferring to do the humanization
    at the keyboard - that doesn't help with the timbral nuances, unless
    they occur "independently" (e.g., a pseudorandom LFO modulating the
    EQ).  This relates to the question above about how these features
    are invoked.
    
    Regarding early appearance of a used R-8 - a lot of people buy gear
    that's touted to be the latest and greatest, and then discover it's
    beyond their comprehension how to take full advantage of it.  Unlike
    a synth, where selecting patches is a relative no-brainer (and just
    about anybody knows how to noodle on a keyboard), making the R-8 do
    anything beyond play the demo and access the default kit through the
    pads requires some familiarity with the interface.  And the 1/2"
    thick manual is a tad intimidating.
    
    Assuming I can manage to acquire one, expect to see a typical
    comprehensive LenReview after I've had a chance to play with it
    for some time.
    
    len.
     

I picked up an R-8 last night. Should I post a review, try to answer
questions, or just forget it?
    
dave
     

     I, for one would love to hear more about this, even though I don't
    have the money to buy one.
    
    Mike D.

    Yes, please post a review.  I'm in line to get one...
    
    len.
    

Sound Quality:

I tried out each of the sounds last night, and sampled the first 21 onto
the EPS at 39.1 khz. I downloaded the samples to the Macintosh using
Universal Sound Designer. Taking a look at the sample waveforms, even at
extreme magnification, they are incredibly clean. The output sound stage
(using just the mono Left channel) is excellent. I won't go into a detailed
opinion on each drum sound because that is too subjective. You have to
hear it for yourself. I agree with Len that the crash cymbal is about the
same as the HR16, only it is about twice as long; nice long decay. The first
21 sounds that I sampled were all kick and snare variations. The kicks are
very punchy, as are the snares. The S:N ratio is great. The long reverb snare
may help to eliminate the need for always bringing the snare out separately
for adding reverb, but with 10 outputs, you certainly have plenty of
flexibility.

The Instruments:

The outputs are assignable rather than fixed for each instrument. One of
the nice features is the ability to create user defined "copy instruments".
These instruments use the same wavesample data as the main "rhythm
instruments", but they can have different parameter settings.
The instrument assigned to each pad can come from
the 68 factory internal (ROM), 26 sound ROM card, or 26 copy (RAM) instrument
sets.
This unit does not have sampling capability, but you do have the ability to
greatly modify the sounds. I'm hoping Roland will provide some orchestral
percussion such as twin crash, bass drum, and timpani. I want to use this
box as "the percussion SGU" to free up the samplers for the more difficult
to sample/emulate instruments such as strings and brass.

There are 68 "Rhythm Instruments", one of which is "REST". I guess the drummer
takes a break in the middle of the set with that one 8^)).

They are...

Kicks:

Dry Kick 1		close miking sound
Dry Kick 2		close miking sound
Wood Kick 1		close miking sound
Double Head Kick 1
Double Head Kick 2
Solid Kick
Room Ambient Kick 1	with large room ambience
Room Ambient Kick 2	""
Mondo Kick

Snares:

Wood Snare 1		close miking, 8" snare
Open Snare 1		close miking
Tight Snare		close miking, 5" snare
Nice Snare 1		with ambience
Fat Snare 1
Impact Snare		with ambience
Snap Snare 1
Ouch! Snare		with reverb effect
Reverb Snare		with reverb
Piccolo Snare 1		close miking, 3" snare
Rimshot Snare 1		close miking sound
Rimshot Snare 2		with ambience
Side Stick 1
Side Stick 2

Toms:

Dry Tom 1		close miking
Dry Tom 2		close miking
Dry Tom 3		close miking
Dry Tom 4		close miking
Room Ambient Tom 1	large room ambience
Room Ambient Tom 2	large room ambience
Room Ambient Tom 3	large room ambience
Room Ambient Tom 4	large room ambience
Power Tom 1		with ambience
Power Tom 2		with ambience
Power Tom 3		with ambience
Power Tom 4		with ambience
Doom Tom		with effect

Cymbals:

Closed HiHat 1
Open HiHat 1
Pedal Closed HiHat
Crash Cymbal 1
Mallet Crash Cymbal	can be used for rolling with mallet
Ride Cymbal 1
Ride-Bell Cymbal 1	mixture of bell and ride
Ride Cymbal bell

Percussion:

808 Hand Clap		that great analog "snap" for rap music
Open Drum 1		large drum voice without mute
Taiko 1			Japanese drum "Taiko"
Clave 1
Cabasa 1
Cowbell 1
Tambourine 1
Shaker 1
Mute High Conga
Slap High Conga
Open Low conga
Slide Low Conga		"with sliding manner"
Agogo 1
Octave Agogo
Whistle 1		short whistle
Whistle 2		long whistle
Can 1
Back Snare 1		reverse of Reverb Snare 1
Back Tom 1		reverse of Doom Tom 1
Back Cymbal 1		reverse of Crash Cymbal 1
Spark 1
Surf
Wheel 1
Rest			time for a brewski

There are 26 "Copy Instruments" from the factory. They are...

Double Head Kick 3
Rimshot Snare 3
Doom Tom 2
Doom Tom 3
Closed HiHat 2		harder than Closed HiHat 1
Closed HiHat 3		similar to Closed HiHat 1, but hit closer to edge
Open HiHat 2		can be used as half open HiHat
Open HiHat 3		open sound similar to bell
Crash Cymbal 2
Choked Crash Cymbal 1	muted with hand immediately after hit
Splash Cymbal 1
Splash Cymbal 2
Dry Hand Clap
Open Drum 2
Cabasa 2
Cowbell 2
Open HIgh Conga
Agogo 2
Plate 1
Ring 1
Pipe 1
Wood BLock 1
Wood Block 2
Thriller
Gun Shot 1
Shadow


My favorites are...

Mondo Kick, Power Toms, crash, mallet cymbal, surf, 808 Claps, and thriller;
not because I would necessarily use them often, but because they are different
and so clean sounding. There are lots of usable kicks, snare, toms and cymbals.
The percussion is studio quality perfect. The reverb drums could possibly free
up that outboard for other things if you are doing a big MIDI sequence to tape.
    

dave

The Roland MIDI Human Rhythm Composer R-8 Owner's Manual:

Most of Roland's owner manuals have received two thumbs down by just about
everyone. You be the judge on this one...

Inside the front cover, there are a number of warnings in foreign languages
that I cannot identify. I think they are warning something about the danger
of the Lithium Battery (backup) exploding, and referring service to trained
service technicians. There are plenty of typos. The table of contents is
fairly complete. In the important notes section, under "How To Handle The Unit",
the first entry reads...

"Adjust the volume control to a level that will not disturb the neighborhood,
especially at night when sounds can travel over long distances." ;^)

The second entry reads...

"Do not allow fluid or foreign matter, such as water, beverages, coins and
wires, to enter this unit."

That prohibits most of us from getting anywhere near this unit. If it ain't
kitchen safe, what will we do? No more nickel tests Len! 8^)). What happens
if the brewski spills during the "Rest"? If I can't wake the neighbors,
I'll need a bigger amp. *^)

The drawings, tables, figures, etc. are good. There is an index by terminology,
and an index by function. The MIDI implementation section is very complete,
and even has a date and version... "Date: September 30, 1988  Version 1.0"
The sysex section looks good. There are lots of reference tables and
drawings in the back showing things like instrument to note assignments,
all of the factory settings for each instrument, a preset pattern (32) table,
some blank charts for recording your own settings and parameters suitable
for photocopying, a troubleshooting guide, error message table, and some
example setups for using the R-8. There is an R-8 Quick Operation Mode Table
for working thru the menu levels of each mode. There is a data flow chart
showing how the different parameters go together to form the almighty "OUTPUT".
There are parameter tables and instrument tables.

It looks like Roland has made an attempt to be pretty thorough. The function
descriptions are in cookbook fashion, step by step similar to the original
MC500 manual, which was one of their better manuals (not the Super MRC) IMHO.

I'll give it a thumbs up for now. After I try to program it, I'll have a better
feel for the user interface and manual usefulness.

dave

The R-8 Technical Specifications:

Sound Source:

Sampling Frequency:  	44.1 khz
Dynamic Range:		16 bit
Maximum Voices:		32 voices
68 internal instruments
26 copy instruments
26 external (Sound ROM Card) instruments

Sound Parameters:

Pitch:  � 4 oct (in 10 cent steps)
Decay: 0-127
Nuance: 0-15
Output Assign: Multi Out 1-8
		Stereo Out (7 level pan)

Rhythm Patterns:

32 Preset Patterns
100 User-Patterns
99 bars
memorized data: Velocity, Pitch, Decay, Nuance, Pan, Micro Timing

Song:

10 Songs (total of up to 999 parts)
memorized data: Initial Tempo, Initial Level, Rhythm Pattern, Repeat, Tempo
		Change, Level Change, Label

8 Feel Patches
10 User Functions
10 Macro Notes (16 notes each)

External Memory:	M-256E, M-256D  ROM, RAM

Display: Function Display 2 line, 20 characters, Graphic Display, Tempo Ind.

Control Section: 2 sliders Value, Volume, loads of buttons, numerical keypad

Output Jacks: Multi Output 1-8, Stereo R/L(MONO), Headphone

Connection Jacks:

RAM Card Slot
ROM Card Slot
Start/Stop
Value
Tape Sync In
Tape Sync Out
MIDI IN/OUT/THRU
AC Adapter �10V  The power pack is separate, but has a line cord with connector

Dimensions: 16 1/8"W, 11 7/16"D, 2 3/4"H
Weight: 6lb 3oz  (3.1kg)
Power Consumption: 7W


So far, the only thing I wish it had was a backlit LCD display. The contrast
control is nice. The viewing angle seems pretty reasonable. The case is
a sort of "sand blasted" gray which won't show finger prints. The buttons
are sturdy black plastic. The instrument buttons are very responsive to
velocity, and are pressure sensitive for rolls as Dan described.

dave

Setting the sound parameters on the R-8 is fun, easy, and pretty amazing.
Each instrument can be edited, and up to 26 edited versions of instrument
data can be registered as a copy instrument. The sound parameters are...

Pitch �4800 cents, use + and - buttons for 10 cent steps, numeric keypad, slider

Decay 0-127, higher values are longer decay, nuance instruments have two decays

Nuance 0-15, for kicks, snares, toms increases low freq. HiHat and Ride position

Output Assignment, Left 1-3, Center, Right 1-3, Multi 1-8

Assign Type, Poly, Mono, Exclusive 1-8

Sense Curve 1-8, set the instrument pad control of timbre and volume by velocity


From reading the manual, which is good so far, you save your instrument
variations in the copy instruments, and treat them as separate instruments
in your sequences. The MIDI implementation indicates the sound parameters
can be sent via SYSEX, but the sequencer must be stopped. I think this means
that you don't vary the nuance parameter on the fly with each note. You treat
the different variations as separate copy instruments (MIDI note number).
Higher values of nuance control the lower frequency content of kicks, snares,
and toms. Values of nuance control the hitting position on the
HiHat and Ride Cymbal. Higher values of nuance represent sound created by
hitting closer to the center of the cymbal.

The pitch variations are rad. The Pipe 1 instrument, for instance, can be
made to "sing" or "zing". It sounds like many different kinds of instruments.

Decay is pretty extreme, too. By increasing the delay to max, I was able to
determine that the crash cymbal is looped. That's why it is so long. It is
a good loop, though, and at the factory setting of 55, the loop is not
really discernible. The kicks, snares and toms have two decay times; one for
the attack sound content (higher frequencies), and one for the shell
resonance content (lower frequencies). This allows you to adjust the snare
spring and the muting. For HiHat and Ride cymbals, the decay times are
set individually for the sound created by hitting the inner part of the cymbal
and the outer part of the cymbal. 

The assignment type controls what happens when more than one instrument or
the same instrument is played simultaneously. Exclusive is used for things
like open and closed HiHat to prevent both sounding at once. The closed
HiHat immediately cuts off the open HiHat if both are set to the same
exclusive number (1-8). In mono, a long decay instrument has its decay cut
each time it is played. The sound is restarted. In poly, another voice is
allocated and the decay of the first hit continues, while a new hit starts
the attack of the same instrument (like hitting two separate crash cymbals).

The Sense Curve controls how the timbre and volume of the instruments
responds to the velocity of the instrument pads.

I'm finding the user interface to be very intuitive so far, at least for
setting the parameters. The menus are easy to follow. The parameters can
be varied with the value slider for coarse adjustments; the numeric keypad
to enter the precise value; or the + and - buttons to increment or decrement
in defined step values.


dave

RE < Note 1864.13 by SUBSYS::ORIN "Laissez Faire" >

> I think this means
>that you don't vary the nuance parameter on the fly with each note. You treat
>the different variations as separate copy instruments (MIDI note number).

	What if you're treating the unit as nothing more than an SGU?  Do you
think you could send sysex on the fly between notes?

	Dan

    Sounds pretty hot.  I'm most interested to know if the Humanizing
    features work when the R8 is used as an SGU driven from an external
    sequencer or only when you use the internal sequencer.
    
    I definitely applaude the mono/poly/exclusive stuff.   I've found
    that getting around the fixed settings on the HR-16 to require
    a lot of "design time" for each song. 
    
    Also, interested to know if the sequencer has any innovative
    features, as well as what the display in step mode is like.
    
    	db

    Any idea what sounds will come on cartridge?
    
    Steve

FWIW

Daddy's had(/s) one in a box.  No name written on it either.

CHad

    re .10 - .13
    
    Dave:
    	Thanks for a very thorough look at what sounds like a very
    exciting machine!!  It obviously took some effort to come up with
    all this info (I really pity folks who have to buy this stuff
    blind, or with only the trade rags to make their evaluations).
             
    	Although I can't really afford to even look at one of these
    beasts, I'm dying to hear one.  What will all this mean for your
    current drum and percussion sources though?  Are they all obsolete?
    I'm just know getting comfortable with the R-50 and D110 drum sounds.
    I'm wondering will a machine with these kinds of sounds and flexibility
    of the R-8 make these older sources superfluous.  
                                                        
    Worried,
    Bill Allen @MPO                                     
    

Re: Note 1864.14  NRPUR::DEATON                                        

>	What if you're treating the unit as nothing more than an SGU?  Do you
>think you could send sysex on the fly between notes?

Dan, I think that you probably could send the sysex on the fly, but the 120
Sound Parameter sysex messages are not spelled out in detail, so it will be
trial and error to find out which one it is. It looks like they intended for
the user to program the patterns and songs on the R-8, and then you could
just play the sequence on the R-8 and record it on a track of another
external sequencer such as a Mac with Master Tracks Pro, etc. You could just
create those copy instruments and use a different MIDI note number for each
nuance variation of a given instrument. I'll experiment and read some more and
try to find out about it in more detail.

Re: Note 1864.15 DREGS::BLICKSTEIN

>    Sounds pretty hot.  I'm most interested to know if the Humanizing
>    features work when the R8 is used as an SGU driven from an external
>    sequencer or only when you use the internal sequencer.

db, I think they will work but require sysex messages again. I'll check
it out and get back. I'll try the sequencer tonight and post a note.

Re: Note 1864.16 MIZZOU::SHERMAN -< WHAT!?! ... no vibraslap? ... :-) >-

>    Any idea what sounds will come on cartridge?
    
Steve, I was rather disturbed by the lack of a vibraslap also, and will dash off
a nastygram to Roland this very evening! ;^)

It looks like they tried for the "meat and potatoes" instruments
on this pass, and I would expect that forth coming sound ROM cards will
contain loads of Latin, Cuban, oriental and other ethnic percussion, as well as
electronic drums, orchestral percussion, and sound f/x. I talked to Eddie and
he said he expects 3 new cards in about a month...

Comtemporary Percussion: Timbales, guica, timpani, etc. 26 sounds
Jazz Brushes: upright bass, brushes on snare, tom, HiHat, ride cymbal, etc.
Sound F/x: cannon, door slam, breaking glass, etc. 26 sounds


There is a variation of the R8 coming out pretty soon called the R5. It will
have the same internal sounds, but no ROM or RAM cartridge slots, and 4 outputs
instead of 10. The retail list price should be $695, which means probably $550
or so in the stores. I got the R8 for $750 as part of a larger purchase of a
new mixer.

Bill, thanks for the kind words of encouragement 8^). The sound quality of this
machine is yet another level beyond the HR16, IMHO. I've sold off the Korg
DDD-5, which was an old friend; nice but not close. I'm seriously considering
selling the HR16. The oldies are still nice, and very nostalgic. That 808
claps showing up on the R8 is a prime example. The good side is that people
will be buying HR16 quality for under $300. The bad side is this constant
MIDI fever gotta upgrade and lose my shirt routine! *^)) (Don't mind me,
I'm always ranting about something, Raucous Roland Renegades unite!).

    Well, Tom Benson and I stopped by Daddy's Junky Music in Nashua
    after lunch.  Turns out the Chuck Vandeman, the regional Roland
    Rep, was in giving Tim Miller, Daddy's Nashua keyboard authority,
    the scoop on the R-8 which included a demo.
    
    One thing that Roland is putting into their products these days 
    that, if you ask me, is an ability to restore factory settings
    (and DEMOS).  One problem that has always plagued salesman is
    turning on the unit for a demo without being able to know what
    state the thing is in.
    
    For example, someone could have erased the demos, or patches, put
    it into some weird mode, etc.   Needless to say, it's embarressing
    to salesman when you are trying to show someone something and
    having to make excuses like "gee, I have no idea why it's doing that?",
    or "well someone seems to have erased all the memory so I can't
    show you much", etc.
    
    This feature is beneficial to us users too.   For example, when
    you reset an ESQ-1 you get 40 BRASS1 patches and nothing else in
    internal patch memory.   If this happens at a gig, you better hope
    that the rest of the set doesn't call for much else other than
    brass.
    
    Ensoniq improved this on the SQ-80.  When you reset an SQ-80, you
    get the original internal factory sounds, which includes at least
    one decent patch in the major categories (piano, organ, strings,
    brass, etc.).
    
    Anyway, I devoted too much space to that topic.
    
    I wanted to mainly here the sounds and the effects of the humanizing
    features.
    
    I was very impressed with almost all of the sounds.  Very complete,
    no real "duds", and lots of interesting useable unique sounds.  
    
    I have to disagree with Len on one thing though.  I REALLY didn't like
    the crash cymbals.  To these ears, they sounded small and thin.
    Sorta like those tiny crash cymbals some drummers use.  I still
    think that the HR-16 sets the standard for crash cymbals and probably
    ride too.
    
    One thing that Chuck demonstrated about the R-8 sounds was that
    on most other machines (including the HR-16), the sounds degrade
    quickly when your tuning starts approaching the radical (like +/- 4
    on the HR-16).   Amazingly, the R-8 sounds still sounds like drums
    even when you go moderately radical and when you go full radical
    they still sound interesting.  I couldn't say the same for the
    HR-16.
    
    I had to leave for a meeting right as he started talking about
    the humanization features.   I did get to listen to an A/B comparison
    of w. humanization and without.  He played "with humanization" first.
    
    My initial reaction was, "I don't hear anything special although
    the drums sounded great".   Then he turned humanization off.
    Wow, what a difference.  With humanization off, it sounded
    very mechanical.  When he turned it on again, it sounded like
    night and day.
    
    I was in such a hurry, I didn't think to ask him if the humanization
    stuff worked if you used it strictly as an SGU.  I suspect they
    do NOT, but hopefully someone will deny this (or confirm it).
    
    One thing that sorta really struck was how many "good ideas" there
    were on this.  Lots of things I wouldn't have even thought to ask
    for, but could really use just the same.
    
    For example, "pad response" is a global parameter on most machines
    that even allow you to adjust it.  On the R-8, you can set different
    responses for each pad.
    
    This makes a lot of sense.  For example, when playing a HH pattern
    you don't really want a lot of dynamic variation between, say,
    eigth notes.  So for the HH pads, you might want to use a fairly
    unresponsive setting.  This is one of the few uses I've have for
    step mode on the HR-16 (fixing up uneven dynamics).
    
    On the HR-16 the pad-to-voice assignments are fixed.  Most pads
    have their own voice and don't "share it" with other pads.  The
    exception of the 3 HH pads which share one voice, and the crash
    pad which has two voices.
    
    I find that I would often like to have 4 HH sounds share one voice
    (closed, � open, full open, and foot closed) and be able to use
    that second crash voice on an "extra" pad.   The R-8 allows this.
    Each pad can be monophonic (like most HR pads), polyphonic (like
    the HR crash pad), or participate in a set of pads which share
    voices (like the HR HH pads).
    
    I'm also forever running out of pads on the HR-16.  Basically an
    HR-16 kit is limited to the number of pads (+1 if you count the
    click).d  On the R-8 you can define multiple pad sets within
    one "kit" (not the ROland jargon for it, which I don't recall
    at this moment).
    
    Overall, the R-8 struck me as big a step forward in functionality,
    as the HR was in sound and price.  Some may point out that it's
    "twice as much" as the HR-16, but that's using statistics.  You
    could also say it's "only a few hundred more", and what it
    gives you for those extra bucks is well worth it if you can
    afford it.
    
    I can't however.
    
    sigh...
    
    	db
    

    re .-1
    
    ESQ-1's since V3.5 also remember the factory patch set.  They aren't
    _in_****ing_credible, but they get the job done.
    
    Quadraverbs remember the factory patch set, and can recall any one
    or the whole ROM worth selectively.
             
    It's becoming a very common feature.
    
    	-Bill 

    Hmmm.  I'm interested too in just what the humanization stuff does.
    Like, if I know what exactly it is, maybe I coule take a dumb drum
    track and beef it up ...
    
    Steve

    
    
    I have an R8 out on loan at the moment which I don't think will
    be going back. To answer some of the questions re:HUmanisation and
    use as an SGU.
    
    1 I will only be using this thing as an SGU as all my bprogramming
    is done from pro-24, which has it's own techniques for this sort
    of thing.
    
    There are a couple of things that will help however. Because of
    the internal architecture which is unlike other drum machines I
    have come across, the midi-note numbers are assigned to the sounds
    and not to the PADS. This means that you can have 88 sounds available
    at all times from a midi-Keyboard. This is a major improvement over
    every other machine I have seen except fro the D110,s or M1's etc.
    
    You can assign the Nuance or other "Performance parameters" to 
    a midi continuous controller. Which means that whilst you are tapping
    on a ride-cymbal you can be moving the controller wheel to adjust
    the position you are hitting on the Cymbal.
    
    The worry I have is that they will bring out an SGU version of this
    machine without the PADS (which I do actually like). 
    
    SO far so good !
    
                                                                 
                                                                 
                                                                 

    Dave - you can make the crash cymbal sound a lot better by tuning
    it down.  My impression of almost all drum machines is that the
    crash and ride cymbals are tuned too high.
    
    Incidentally, I'm not that pleased with the HR-16's crash cymbal
    either.  Tuned down it's usable, but it needs some additional processing
    (e.g., EQ) to get it to sound like a class crash.  The R-8's major
    virtue is the length (via looping, apparently) of its crash.  It
    sure would be nice if these machines offered two or more crash
    samples; crashes don't differ from one another only in pitch.  You can
    get some useful timbral variation in crashes by doubling/layering crashes
    from multiple drum machines in different combinations.
                          
    len.
    

    No, len, you're wrong.
    
    The HR-16 crash sounds better if you tune it UP 11 units and then
    flange it...
    
    Gheesh....
    
    Edd

    re .25 - hey, with a personal name like that, what'd'ya expect?
    
    len.
    

Well, I read the MIDI implementation some more last night, as well as the
performance parameter section and the "feel patch" section. It looks like
all of the "humanization" capabilities *are* accessible via MIDI. They are
not described in very much detail, so it will take lots of experimentation.

The feel patch and performance parameters control the humanization techniques
by either randomly or fixedly varying such parameters as nuance, pitch, decay,
and velocity. You can control which parameters are varied, on which instruments
they are varied, the percentage of variation, etc. There is also the concept
of "microtiming", which can vary the NOTE ON and NOTE OFF timings in increments
of 1/384 beat. This can provide "shuffle", "swing", etc. Roland calls this
stuff "the groove". A feel patch can be assigned to a pattern, and all of the
parameters can be controlled via MIDI as well.

It looks suspiciously like you really will want to program the patterns on
the R-8 though. I think that's what Roland intended, possibly for some
proprietary reasons relating to this "humanization" stuff.

One of us will have to program up a sequence, transfer it down to the
home computer, and analyze the MIDI info to find out what's exactly going
on. I'm spending most of my time with the samplers right now. Help, Len!

dave

Re: humanization while using an external sequencer...

Is this completely  possible?    Certainly,  the R-8 wouldn't be able to
     shift notes that come  in  over MIDI on the beat to be ahead of the
     beat???

----------
Re: "What is humanization?"

DIR/TITLE="human" tells me that there was a whole big discussion on this
     topic in note 1091.

/Mitch

    
    
    re .-2
    
    I think I have to disagree with the Humanisation over midi argument.
    I really don't see (from the manual anyway) how this could be done.
    You can do some fairly impressive things re sound and nuance change
    ovber midi. And you can do Pattern select via midi. But if you have
    your drum sequnce built into the external sequncer I don't see how
    you can get at the "feel patch".
    
    Dave ! Any views on the Snare Sounds. I am finding it really difficult
    to get a snare sound that I really like. They are all good but probably
    to close to the original sound for my liking. Any suggestions ?
   
    						Paul. 
    
    

The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that most of the MIDI
access information is for doing bulk dumps and bulk loads to save the
current state of the machine and sequences/patterns. That's why I think
that programming the patterns/songs on the R-8, then doing a bulk dump to
the beginning of the rhythm track on the external sequencer, followed by
the actual sequence being played is about the best way to use the R-8
features. That way, the complete configuration of the R-8 will be
restored before the song when you run the master sequencer.

I like the snares pretty well. Have you tried varying the decays and
pitch? What about an external reverb unit? How about assigning the same
snare to two different pads, and varying the pan, decay, tuning slightly
to get a "stereo snare"? You could also try layering two or more different
snares. There might be some interesting combinations, although some "flanging"
might occur.

dave    
    

    The timing aspect of the humanization can probably only be done
    by programming the patterns into the R-8, for all the reasons already
    mentioned.
    
    The 1/384 of a bar resolution corresponds to 1/96 of a quarter note;
    at 120 bpm, thisis a little over 5 milliseconds.  I'd prefer finer
    resolution (like1 millisecond) but my own experiments indicate that
    5 millisecondsof offset is practically undetectable to my
    unsophisticated ears(brain?).
    
    But there's also the timbral aspect, which ought to be independent
    of the sequencer.  But until I actually have an R-8 in my grubby
    little sunburned hands, all I can do is conjecture.
    
    len.
    

    
    
    Re -1 ,2 ,3
    
    My R8 is already grubby from my hands and I can confirm the timing
    aspects of the humanisation are *NOT*. "read my lips". Not available
    from a sequencer unless you call the patterns from the sequencer,
    which you can do. You do get access to all the timbres simultaneously
    from the sequencer so this thing is a great Drum Expander.
                                           
    You get midi-access by note number to each individual sound not
    each individual pad. apparently the Kawai machines also do this.
    
    					Paul.
                                                                     
    

>NRPUR::DEATON "tired of thinking up cute quotes"     14 lines 6-APR-1989 16:56
>                                -< Not bad... >-
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>	There are some interesting features on the RX5 and RX7 machines.  For 
>one thing, they have an small assortment of sounds that can be played like a
>synthesizer - bass, brass, orchestra, vibs...  That is, instead a fixed 
>frequency, you can play them in (I beleive) up to 8-note polyphony.  I'm not
>aware of other drum machines having this feature.  This makes it concieveable
>that either one of these machines could be your foundation unit when sequencing/
>playing live.  'Course, ya hafta like the sounds.
>
>
>	Dan
>



>WOTVAX::KENT                                       14 lines   7-APR-1989 06:56
>                             -< Do tha Monstawimp >-
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>    re.3
>    
>    
>    I think the R8 will allow you to play the instruments the same way
>    in specific modes. The only thing it doesn't have is the instruments
>    to go with this. I assume they will come along in the ROM cards.
>    
>    The RX7 was the R8 of about 2 years ago. It is a classic case of
>    Yamaha building a monster machine and trying to sell it to a wimpy
>    market which never caught on. 
>    
>    Buy the R5. Or 8 if you can affor it.
>    
>    				Paul.
>

This was brought up in the question to the RX5-7 note from a week or so ago
regarding the R8.  It was mentioned that th RX ones allow you to use some
sounds over a limited range to x-polyphony as noted above.

Well, over the weekend I played with this a bit on my R8, where a similar 
feature exists.  I received a quick reference sheet over the weekend from
ROland ergarding some features and how to easily access them. 

You have the ability to specify up to 4 performance instruments.  A performance
instrument has settable channel and sound.  This sound can be any of the
sounds in the machine, whether they are original sound or copy-sounds and
the sounds are still editable.  A performance instrument maps an external
controller (or a sequencer would do) such as a keyboard to the sound.  That
means that the same sound is played with any note-on/note-off pair.  The
pitch played is that of the note-on/off. No guarantee however that the pitch
will be "concert" pitch like on your keyboard.  That is determined by the
tuning of the original sound used in the performance instrument.

For example, I played a woodblock sound yesterday on the keyboard -- tried to
do Canon in D/Pachelbel.  It was pretty neat.  When more sounds are available
on ROM-card in the future such as string, bass, vibes etc. this will allow
the R8 to function like an SGU over a full range.

Even sounds like cymbals are interesting to use.  5 octaves of ride cymbal
anyone :-)  ?  Some of the more usefule sounds for mapping are the woodblock,
claves, the agogas, and the whistle1.  I only had about 30 minutes to play with
it but it was pretty neat.  I would surmise that that is how the demo song
JUNGLE had its "melody" lines.

Every day I like the R8 more and more.  Of course, its not hard to impress a
dummy like me :-)

Chad

    
    
    Has anybody established whether it is possible to disconeect the
    pads on the R8 from the SGU i.e. what would be local of on a keyboard.
    
    I enjoy the R8 as a controller as well as sound source but I do
    all my sequencing from pro-24. Hence the above.
    
    
    					Paul.

    If you're doing all your sequencing externally what would a 'local
    off' feature buy you?
    
    Edd

    
    
    Re -1
    
    
    Well I really like the pads and they would almost be as much use
    to me as an octapad in that I can tap a mean Rhythm with my fingers
    I'me not to sure about sticks... So....
    
    I would like to use the pads to create the sounds but record them
    into my sequencer. So R8->Atari->R8 and we have the old midi-loop-de-loop.
    or flanged snares and all sorts of other horrid things. Local off
    would solve the problem. OR of course a matrix which would cost
    money...                                 
    
    Yeh ?
    
    					Paul.
         

    On the few times I've wanted to store drum patterns as part of a
    sequence, I've simply programmed the HR as par usual and, when I'm
    happy, sent the data to the sequencer. The HR lets you shut reception
    or transmission of MIDI note events on or off, so it's only a couple S/W
    switched to futz with...
    
    Does the R-8 do that?
    
    Edd                                

    
    re -1
    
    Yes.......
    
    But then you have to mess with patterns and switch the midisend
    on etc.. etc...
    
    Local off would do it in one set.. And hopefully remember it.
    
    					Paul.

I just got the "Contemporary Percussion" ROM card for the R8. It has most of
the Latin percussion sounds, including the infamous vibraslap, guica, congas,
bongos, etc. and concert bass, timpani, triangle, bell tree, etc. Most of
these sounds are right out of the S550 library and are very nice. There is also
a jazz brushes card, but Wurly's card was stolen before I could buy it. Eddie
says it's great, so I'll have to take his word for it until they get another
copy.

dave

    Wait a minute, I thought the R8 was 16-bit samples.  Isn't that
    incompatible with the S550 stuff?
    
    Steve

  <<< Note 1864.40 by MIZZOU::SHERMAN "ECADSR::SHERMAN 227-3299, 223-3326" >>>

>    Wait a minute, I thought the R8 was 16-bit samples.  Isn't that
>    incompatible with the S550 stuff?
    
I'm referring to the sounds being the same. I believe the S550 samples in 12
bits but stores samples in 16 bits. Even if the bit quantities are different,
the sounds are nearly identical, and the waveforms are nearly identical when
seen on the Mac using Universal Sound Designer. The R8 cards don't work on an
S550, just as the DSDD disks don't work with an R8. The sound data is the same,
however. I routinely transfer wavesamples from my S550 to the Mac and then to
the Ensoniq EPS. The EPS samples in 13 bits, and stores in 16 bits. When I get
the wavesample to the EPS and create an instrument with it, the sound made by
the EPS is the same as the S550 for all practical purposes. The *format*
of the data can be different without the data itself being incompatible. The
EPS did not "sample" the data, it was fed in via the MIDI port.
There are usually a few spare bits floating around in these samplers to allow
for quantization error correction and interpolation. The LSBs are usually 
discarded upon sampling because of conversion error. This does not mean that
the playback circuitry (D/A) won't handle a 16 bit quantity. The Kurzweil 250
has a 14 bit A/D but discards the 2 LSBs for 12 bit accuracy. The playback
circuitry uses a 16 bit D/A.

dave

    Hi!  It's Mike Bell vandalizing from my boss's account.
    
    Just a quick thought:  I have to real conception of advanced MIDI
    functions (including what I'm about to conjecture).
    
    What if you program your drum track externally, quantize it however
    you want, then download it to the R-8 in real time using some sort
    of MIDI timing, and once it's in the R-8, then use the Human feature?
    
    Am I utterly stupid?
    
    Then after it's Humanized, dump it back to the sequencer, including
    all the nuance changes etc.
    
    A lot of fooling, but wouldn't it work?
    
    --mikie--

    As I recall, the humanization stuff will work when the R-8 runs
    its sequences, but this doesn't dump to MIDI.  And, you can dump
    a new sequence in from MIDI, but it will need to be run on the R-8
    to be humanized.  On the other hand, there's a new box out that
    does a little of this kind of stuff that's reported in the latest
    issue of KEYBOARD.  It gives you 8 sliders that can be used, for
    example, to push a channel ahead or behind by a small amount.
    I suppose it won't be too long before humnaization algorithms become
    the norm in sequencers.
    
    Steve

    I don't think you can do what you have in mind, at least not easily.
    While I believe the R-8 will accept MIDI input to program a pattern,
    I don't think you can program a whole song this way.  You'd have
    to figure out what the patterns were, and send them over one at
    a time, then program the song into the R-8 manually (specifying
    which pattern should be played for each  bar of the song).
    
    Having done that (a nontrivial effort), I believe the humanization
    features are applied on a pattern by pattern basis, i.e., I don't
    think you can just say "humanize this whole song and don't bother
    me with the details".  Be that as it may, the "nuance" or timbral
    aspects (as opposed to the timing aspects) of the humanization probably
    don't get emitted from the R-8's MIDI OUT.  Some R-8 expert will
    have to confirm this - I suppose it could be done via SysEx, but
    unless the R-8 were driving another R-8 it doesn't make a whole
    lot of sense to provide such messages, and given the effort Roland
    has put into the R-8's onboard sequencer, emitting this stuff so
    some other sequencer could record it also doesn't seem to make a
    whole lot of sense.
    
    Regarding the humanizer box mentioned in .43, that works only if
    an "across the board" delay or advance (applied to all notes on
    a given channel) accomplishes the desired effect.  For drums, you
    may want to do things like delay only the snare, and that requries
    that it be allocated its own channel.  Also, putting some "swing"
    into a sequence may mean delaying, for example, every other note,
    rather than every note.
    
    So, it doesn't look good for doing the sort of things you want to
    do.                           
    
    len.
    

    
    Finally got my R-8.
    
    This machine is considerably more elaborate than any magazine reviews
    had led me to believe.  After a week with it I am just beginning
    to really understand its capabilities.  A typically comprehensive
    LenReview will follow in a few weeks.
    
    They mostly got it right.  This is quite a machine.  It's a great
    deal more than two HR-16s.
    
    len.
    

    
    I couldn't resist is any longer, I bought an R8 Friday night.  
    
    Yahoo!  What a great machine.
    
    Sales story:  I started off by telling the salesperson that I was
    interested in an R8 but I only had $700 TOTAL to spend (that's
    *including* a 7% sales tax).  I said that I had been to three
    other dealers and that they were willing to sell for that price
    but they didn't have any units in stock (which is also true).
    
    He didn't seem phased at all!  He asked if I had heard the R8 (I
    hadn't) and I inquired about several ROM cards.  I really liked
    the "sound effects" and "latin percussion".  He asked if I wanted
    to buy them also and made *me* an offer of $725.  I couldn't say
    no.
    
    "jackin' the house", Bob

    I recently acquired two ROM cards for the R-8.  These are two of the first
    three of 6 projected ROM cards (Contemporary Percussion, Jazz Brush, Sound
    Effects, Electronic, Jazz, Ethnic Percussion).  The cards list for about
    $90 but can be had for rather less.

    Each card contains 26 samples and a demo.  The demos are quite effective
    in demonstrating the use of the sounds.  The demos need not be loaded
    with the sounds, so you can preserve the R-8's current pattern memory.
    With the sounds loaded, the R-8 provides access to a total of 120
    sounds - 68 in internal memory, 26 in the user-defined copied sounds,
    and 26 in the ROM card.  Copied sounds can come from any source and
    are arbitrarily editable.  The only real difference between the copied
    spounds and the internal and ROM card sounds (which can be edited, with
    the edits retained across power cycles) is that the copied sounds can be
    duplicated; you can, for example, make two copies of the crash cymbal and
    edit them differently. 


    In the sound listings below:

      * means the timbre changes as a function of velocity and nuance
     ** means the timbre changes as a function of nuance.


    Card SN-R8-01 is the "Contemporary Percussion" card.  It contains the
    following sounds:

    	Low Timbale
    	High Timbale
    	Open Pandiero - a tambourine-like sound
    	Mute Pandiero
    	Low Bongo
    	High Bongo
    	Open Surdo - a large, low-pitched drum
    	Mute Surdo
    	Vibra-Slap
    	Tamborim - a tambourine with no jingles
    	Open Cuica - a sort of "stick and slip" sound
    	Mute Cuica - almost voice-like
    	Maracas - sounds like only a few seeds, unlike a shaker
    	Cowbell 2
    	Long Guilo - scraper (japanese transliteration of "guiro"?) 
    	Short Guilo - long means slow, short means fast scrape
    	Triangle
    	Tambourine 2
    	Castanets
    	Wood Block
       *Concert Bass Drum
       *Timpani
    	Bell Tree
    	Kalimba
    	Log Drum
    	Steel Drum

    Finally, castanets, an orchestral bass drum (with that big, loose
    "boom" sound) and timpani.  The multi assign option makes tuning the
    timpani over an octave and a third a trivial operation, and the poly
    mode makes timpani rolls almost realistic.  These timpani are fatter
    than the timpani in my MIDIBass, but they still have a little too much
    impact noise for my taste.  My ideal timpani sound remains Vic Firth
    playing with his own hard felt mallets at the back of the stage in
    Symphony Hall, heard from the first row of the first balcony center.
    I mean, is that too much to ask for? 

    Card SN-R8-02 is the "Jazz Brush" card.  It contains the following
    sounds:

       *Deep Kick 1
       *Resonant Kick 1
       *Sharp Kick
       *Attack Kick
    	Brush Swish Snare 1
    	Brush Swish Snare 2
    	Brush Swish Snare 3 - more slap than 1 and 2
    	Brush Swish Snare 4 - more slap than 1 and 2
       *Brush Slap Snare 1
       *Brush Slap Snare 2
       *Brush Slap Snare 3
       *Brush Slap Snare 4 - almost a brush rim shot - a lot of shell sound
    	Brush Roll Snare 1 - hiss-like sound
    	Brush Roll Snare 2 - more slap than 1
    	Brush Roll Snare 3 - hiss-like
    	Brush Roll Snare 4 - hiss-like
       *Brush Slap Tom 1 - low tom
       *Brush Slap Tom 2
       *Brush Slap Tom 3
       *Brush Slap Tom 4 - high tom
      **Brush Closed HiHat 1
      **Brush Open HiHat 1
        Brush Crash Cymbal 1 - can hear looping if you listen *very* closely
        Brush Crash Cymbal 2 -  "                                         "
      **Brush Ride Cymbal 1
    	Acoustic Bass - a clean, almost sterile, string bass sample.

    I'm not sure how the brush roll snares are meant to be used.  They
    have no attack to speak of (except Brush Roll Snare 2), and are just
    a wash of high frequency noise.  "Rolling" them (using the R-8's
    roll key) doesn't sound much like a brush roll to me.  The brush toms
    are extraordinary.

    The bottom line is these cards make the R-8 an even more incredible
    drum machine.  I listened to all of these sounds through headphones and
    the samples are for the most part very good to excellent.  Crash cymbals
    remain a weak point for all the drum machines I've auditioned, and the
    R-8 is no exception.  I am disappointed that the R-8 does not allow
    the application of nuance to the crashes.  Perhaps Roland will deign to
    issue a ROM card of nothing but crashes and rides.    

    
    ROLAND has also announced a forthcoming card for the R8 with the
    808 sounds in it.
    
    "jackin' the house", bob

    Gee, maybe they'll issue an RX-21 card next!!
    
    Len, have you had a chance to try any applications with the brushes
    yet? I'm real curious as to how you can get the swept brush sounds to
    coincide with the tempo. How/can they know when to stop???
    
    Edd 

    Are there any realistic sound uses of the brushes in the demos.
    
    I've gotten a lot of ideas and insights by examining the demos
    that have come with my drum machine.
    
    	db

    
    
    I have had the jazz bursh set for about a month. I decided to buy
    one card and this was the one that I plumped for. I would buy a
    and 808 card if one came out.
    
    The brushes work great, the rolls basically add the swish after
    the basic impact of the brush you know the
    
    bumpatushhhh type sound well the rolls are the tussssh part of that
    works well and is dead useful.
    
    perhaps I'll submit one of my brush and rhodes doodles seems current
    no?
    
    					Paul.

    re .-n: the brush demo is fantastic, it really sounds like a recording
    of someone playing.  The only thing that gives it away is the acoustic
    bass is too consistently perfect sounding.
    
    I suspect the way to get the brush swishes in sync with the tempo
    is to assign the instruments to one of the "mutually exclusive"
    groups (there are 8 of them), so the next note on truncates the
    previous sound (like open and closed hihat).
    
    Dave B.'s remark about inspecting the demo is exactly what I intend
    to do.
    
    len.
          

    I think the "'808" card may be the Electronic card I mentioned.
    
    len.
    

	Concerning the melodic instruments within the R8/R5 (i.e., basses, 
etc)...

	Do these have to be programmed on a pattern-by-pattern basis like the
rest of the non-melodic drums?  Or is there some special way to add them 
alongside a string of (possibly repetitive) patterns?  If the former, it would 
seem that you would either have an *incredible* task ahead of you to incorporate
something like a bass line, or you'd need to have an external sequencer access 
that one sound, independent of the non-melodic patterns.  If the latter, how is
this implemented?

	Dan

quickly, as I have to run...

The R8(/r5?) have four "performance" instruments that allow you to 
select a channel and a sound and have that sound mapped across the MIDI keyboard
note number range, independent of the "instrument" section.  All sounds
are accessible at once too, not on a "kit" by "kit" basis.

bye
Chad

R8 doesn't have any built in bass sounds, r5 does.  R8 has some on ROM though.

    It was my understanding (perhaps erroneous, as the R8 is a rather
    complex beast) that the performance sections only applied to the
    R8 as played from its pads, and that the multi assign function could
    be used to map the pads onto successive notes (pitches).  I was
    not aware of any way to make a single sound available across the
    entire range of MIDI note numbers, with the pitches properly mapped
    to note numbers.
    
    But then, the manual is moderately opaque on such things.
    
    len (who'll check tonight).
    

Len, it works great.  The performance sections are independent of the pads.
I've done this many a time.  There are a few (4?) different things you
can set up to be controlled from the keyboard, one of which is pitch.  You can
also have I think nuance and a few other things instead of pitch.  I
like setting up woodblocks as a voice and use the R8 as an SGU in addition to
drum SGU.

Chad

First of all, what is an SGU?  Sampler G*** Unit?

I am debating once again about getting the R5 instead.  The ROM card blew me
away, but if I can get those from an S550, who cares?  I'm too MIDI-naive to
know what I need for an ultimate set-up, but I'm concerned about performance
more than recording, so I want ease of use.

What do I gain over having an R8 with ROM cards vs. an R5 hooked up to an S550
to get external sounds?  How is this done?  Is it possible?  How does a
keyboard get involved in all this?  Especially for the melodic instruments
like string bass?

I'm not asking for a tutorial; I will learn on my own once the time comes.
I am merely concerned with finding out what is and isn't possible with MIDI
setups, to avoid redundancy of functionality so I can buy more for the buck.


				Mark

SGU = sound generating unit or similar.

S550 > $2000 so R5 connected to S550 is probabl >$2500 - $2700

R8 = about $700-800


Granted, the S550 and R5 combination is a lot more powerful (as the S550 can 
load any sound as a sample and make its own samples).

Chad

    re earlier notes about performance section:
    
    Indeed, there are 4 performance sections that each allow one to map a
    single instrument across the entire keyboard, affecting pitch, pan,
    nuance and decay as a (linear) function of note number.  This is
    in addition to the instrument section, which makes all of the R-8's
    sounds available.  So you can drive the R-8 on up to 5 MIDI channels
    at the same time, 4 of which are assigned to single instruments
    whose parameters are determined by note numbers, and one of which
    maps note numbers onto different timbres.  This makes the R-8
    incredibly versatile, if you can figure it all out.
    
    I was confusing the performance sections with the performance
    parameters, which modify the basic sound parameters on a pad by
    pad basis for playing the R-8 "live" rather than driven from a
    sequencer.
    
    Regarding R-5/8 + S-550 combinations, I'm not aware of any special
    S-550 support in either the R-5 or the R-8.  You can use them as
    percussion sequencers, but you don't get to take advantage of the
    "humanization" features.  I have never been a fan of the "sampler
    as drum machine" school of thought, as there are a number of drum/
    percussion specific requirements that often get left out of samplers,
    and a dedicated (perhaps sample based) drum machine can provide
    a lot more bang for the buck, as Chad's analysis in the previous
    reply demonstrates.
               
    len.
    

    I fooled around with the R-8's performance sections this weekend,
    having finally gotten my studio rewired and on the air again.
    I discovered two "interesting" features (i.e., "crocks") of the
    R-8's implementation of performance sections.
    
    First, you can map only *one* of pitch, pan, nuance and decay as
    a function of note number.  Thus you can pan an instrument of constant
    pitch (real useful?), specifying its position by note number.  Or
    you can change its timbre (nuance) (again, with a constant pitch)
    as a function of note number.
    
    Second, you change the instrument assigned to a performance section
    by using the pads.  Thus if you haven't already assigned the instrument
    you want to use in a performance section to a pad, you're out of
    luck.
    
    Both of these "features" resulted in considerable "what the heck
    is going on here" interactions with the R-8's user interface, until
    I finally read between the lines of the manual.
                  
    len.
    

RE < Note 1864.61 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >

>    First, you can map only *one* of pitch, pan, nuance and decay as
>    a function of note number.  

	So, does this mean that the R8, if there's a bass sound on one of the
cards, can use a performance instrument to play bass?  Can the performance
instrument be sequenced into a song WITHOUT having to plug it into patterns
(thus needing MANY patterns)?

>    Second, you change the instrument assigned to a performance section
>    by using the pads.  Thus if you haven't already assigned the instrument
>    you want to use in a performance section to a pad, you're out of
>    luck.

	I'm not getting this...  Are you saying that you can only assign a
sample to a performance instrument if it is already assigned to one pad?
    
	Dan

	Another question...

	Seein's how the R5/R8 allows access to ALL drum sounds via MID, can I 
assume that sounds are tied into MIDI notes rather than drum machine pads (like 
on the HR16)?  If so, how does programming a pattern take place - can you change
a pad to be a different sound mid-pattern or do you work with a 'kit' for the 
duration of the pattern (as in the HR16)?

	Dan

    Now, accept that my understanding of the R-8 way not yet be perfect,
    but I believe this is the way it goes.
    
    Driving the R-8 from an external sequencer (i.e., using it as a
    drum SGU), you have simultaneous access to 80 of the machine's hundred
    and some odd sounds.  This is because there are 5 pad banks (A-E) of
    16 pads, and you must use the pads to do note number assignments.
    I'm not sure yet if you can use a pad over and over again to assign
    MIDI note numbers to instruments not "permanently" assigned to some
    pad in some bank, making them accessible via MIDI regardless of
    the current pad assignments.  I have to admit that despite many years
    of experience with Roland drum machines, the R-8's mechanisms are not
    intuitive to me.
    
    This is also a "global" state, and is independent of any patterns
    you have defined (i.e., it differs from the HR-16 in this regard).
    (Note however, that any patterns you have defined can only reference
    sounds assigned to the 5 pad banks as well).  These 80 sounds can
    come from anywhere - the internal sounds, the copy sounds, or the
    ROM card sounds.  If you assign a pad to a ROM card sound, the ROM
    card has to be plugged in to make it accessible, in real time (from
    the pads), from the R-8's internal sequencer, or externally via
    MIDI.
    
    In addition, any of these 80 sounds may be assigned to each of the
    4 performance sections, allowing you to map *one* of pitch, nuance
    (timbre), decay, or pan as a function of MIDI note numbers.  The
    performance sections *must* be on different channels from the
    instrument section (which maps note numbers to different samples,
    via the pad assignments noted above).  You specify the instrument
    to be assigned to a performance section by using the pads, so if
    the instrument hasn't been assigned to a pad in one of the 5 pad
    banks, you can't assign it to a performance section.  I.e., when
    you select the INSTRUMENT parameter in a performance section, the
    parameter select and value up/down keys just send you to different
    parameters, they don't change the instrument "value"; the only way
    you can do that is by hitting a pad.
    
    I'm not sure what happens if you reassign a pad whose instrument
    is referenced by a pattern, i.e., does the instrument in the pattern
    also change, or is this a way to get at *all* (rather than just
    80 of) the R-8's instruments?
    
    So, yes, using the string bass sample in the jazz brush ROM card,
    you can access (via MIDI) a whole keyboard's worth of pitches using
    a performance section.  You can also program the bass on a pattern
    by pattern basis for use from the R-8's internal sequencer, but
    you do that by taking advantage of the fact that for any pattern
    you can modify an instrument's pitch on an event by event basis.
    So yes, if you want a nonrepetitive bass line, you should plan on
    using up a lot of patterns, although the R-8 does support multibar
    patterns (i.e., unlike earlier Roland drum machines, the R-8 doesn't
    assume a pattern/bar identity).
    
    Somehow I have the feeling that this discussion hasn't really clarified
    things.
    
    len.
    
    

    > ...this discussion hasn't really clarified things.
    
    Now I understand why you're outta town so often. I couldn't go
    home and face that beast either....
    
    Edd

RE < Note 1864.64 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >

	So let me ask you now - is there any way, within a pattern (using the
R8's internal sequencer) to change kits.  Are kits assigned to patterns?  Are
ALL sounds available within a given pattern?  If so, how does the sequencer
know which kit you're using at a given moment?

	Dan

    There is no notion of kits.  All the R-8's sounds (subject to the
    possible restriction to only the 80 of them actually assigned
    to keypads) are available to all patterns, all the time.  Think
    of the R-8 as having one kit of 80 (or more) sounds, shared by all
    patterns.
    
    len.
    

(disclaimer:  this is not supposed to be a debate with  len or anybody, just 
give an explanation of how I understand things, which may not be correct)

Some of what len said (admittedly he gave a disclaimer of not being sure) 
didn't seem to jive with me concerning the MIDI addressability of sounds vs. 
kits/pads/etc.  Though I haven't tested it myself yet, I looked in the manual 
last night and base the following on my cursory glance in the manual as well 
as how I remember it works from using it in the past.

All sounds are addressable at once via MIDI.  It is not limited to 80 (due
to 80 pads.  I sound doesn't need to be assigned to a pad to be used through
MIDI addressing.  The pads only come into play when you are assigning a MIDI
note to a particular sound.  Roland uses the pads to choose the sounds that
you want to assign.  That means, you can assign a sound to a pad, assign that
sound then to a MIDI note, then reassign that pad to a new sound while the
original sound keeps its MIDI note and is fully usable through that MIDI note
though it is no longer a sound on a pad.  In other words, sounds have note 
numbers, not pads.

As "proof" of this, I give the following example from the manual:
(the manual lists default MIDI note assignments as well as defaut pad 
assignments).

The sound INT03 Wood Kick 1 (or some such name) is assigned at the factory to
a MIDI note (37 I think).  Looking at the 80 (5*16) pad assignments from the
factory, there is *no* wood kick.  In ither words, that sounds is MIDI 
addressable but has no pad.

--
(The following is how I understand it, the truth may be different...)
Concerning patterns.  Though I haven't really used them all that much (I use 
the R8 as a drum SGU the most), the 4 performance sections are only usable
through MIDI, not through the built in drum sequencer section.

Chad

    I was going to do the same experiment.  I was careful to write things
    like "at least 80 sounds" and asked if you could access sounds that
    weren't currently assigned to pads, because I didn't know and the
    manual wasn't at all clear on this point.  So, we're not debating,
    just elucidating.
    
    Note that the assignments to the ROM card are to a "position" in the
    card, not to a specific sound on a card, so if you have a different
    card plugged in you will get a different sound.
    
    len.
    

>>> ... So, we're not debating,
>>>    just elucidating.


Yeah, them's the words I was looking for...

Chad
:-)

    I may be picking up an R8 real soon. The store that I might get
    it at sells HOSA cables, and sell 8 cable color coded snakes for
    around $40. The carry 6.6' and 9.9' I think. They looked a little
    thin, but the sales person said that HOSA makes execellent quality
    cables, and not to worry. Does anyone use HOSA and can recommend
    them? Also, I was thinking of getting the 9.9' length - will the
    difference in length make any difference as far as noise, etc.?
    
    Also, as an aside, they had the contemporary and jazz brush ROM cards.
    They sounded great, so I may be picking them up also!
    
    Thanks!
    Bill

>< Note 1864.71 by NRADM::KARL "It's computerized, no thing c,an go wrong nothing c an g" >
>                     -< Recommendation needed for cables >-

I use HOSA cables. They are inexpensive and work fine. I like them. 
I'd recommend them. 
  
Length difference between 6.6 and 9.9 feet should make absolutely no difference
as far as noise or signal degradation (causing data corruption) etc. I use 20
foot HOSA MIDI cables to connect to my rack and have had no problems.

Mike D

I must have a dozen HOSA cables, including their longest one (25 ft?).  They
are well made and have never caused me one bit of trouble.  Surprising for the
cheapest thing around.  A good deal.

	Eirikur

    I've got HOSA cables in lengths from 6" (perfect for wiring rack mount
    FX to rack mount mixer) to 25'.
    
    Never had a failure.
    
    Edd

    Thanks for the quick replies! I guess I'll join the HOSA club.
    The 9' ones will allow me to move the box wherever I want within
    my setup, so it's good to know that length makes no difference.
    
    By the way - if the cable is too long, is it OK to coil it
    to neaten things up (with regard to noise, etc.)?
    
    Thanks!
    Bill

    Well, I picked one up last Friday night! I bought three ROM cards
    - the Contempory Percussion, Ethnic, and Jazz Brush.
    
    Being my first drum machine, I spent most of last weekend trying
    to figure out how to use it. I still have only used a little of
    it's full potential, and since I never owned a drum machine before,
    I have nothing to compare it to. I did some shopping around about
    a year and a half ago, and wasn't thrilled with anything, really.
    
    I did give the HR-16 a listen to once, and thought it sounded real
    good. It only took one listen to convinece myself that the R8 was
    really some machine! I listened to it Thursday night, gave myself
    one night to sleep in it, and bought it Friday!
    
    Sounds pretty good so far! I don't think it has an orchestral crash
    cymbol, to my recollection, and I have one song that could use it.
    It should have been on the ROM with tympany (contempory percussion)
    in my opinion, but, alas, it's not. Oh well, maybe it will show
    up on another ROM sometime.
    
    Great machine though!
    
    Bill

    Maybe we should start a Hosa cable thing, but I think I've got
    to be the acid test:  I have had a failure (or two or three)
    with EVERY kind of cable I've ever bought including a $75
    fancy-dancy guitar cord cable.
    
    	db

    
    
    re -.1
    
    A $75 guitar cord???  Egads!!!!
    
    I've also got a pile of HOSA snakes (some Tascam too) and haven't
    had any problems yet (about 2 years for some of them)  Of course,
    they don't get moved around alot, or find their way into massive
    tangles like guitar cords do!
    
    Ralph
    
    

               <<< NOVA::DVD12:[NOTES$LIBRARY]COMMUSIC.NOTE;1 >>>
             -< * * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * * >-
================================================================================
Note 2189.0                      R8 experience ?                      No replies
PRSUD1::SEYNAEVE "GARDIEN DE VAX"                    10 lines  30-NOV-1989 10:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Hello there,
    
    I just buy a Roland R8, i'm interesting to talk to people who get
    good experience of Human Rythm parameters and ROM cards (for example
    i need Timbaless sounds...)
    
    Thanks for answers and "Bonjour de Paris".
    
    Thierry
    

    Just in from USENET. All you R-8 owners are going to have to sell your
    boxes now  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    
From: [email protected] (John David Miller)
Reply-To: [email protected] (John David Miller)
Organization: Graphic Software Systems, Beaverton Or
 
I just got the Roland Winter 1990 New Products catalog.  Of particular 
interest to me were:
 
	R-8M "Total Percussion Sound Module"
 
	Just what you'd expect: the R-8 in a 1U rack, with 3 PCM card slots
	and 1 RAM card slot:
 
		- 44.1Khz sample-rate multi-sampled sounds
		
		- +/- 4 octave pitch shifts
 
		- 68 internal sounds, with the card slots filled, 146 sounds
		at a time
 
		- sound modifiers: Pitch, Decay time, Nuance, Level, Output
		assign, all real-time MIDI adjustable.
 
		- 1 instrument section, 4 performance sections.  In layer
		mode, 2 sounds can be given the same note number and played
		simultaneously.  (The only instrument they mention is the
		Marimba, what are the others?)
 
		- "Feel function" adds a human element to rythm programming.
		Feel can be set to three different modes: Groove, Velocity,
		or Random.  Groove adds variations according to set values
		and MIDI clock, such as on the 2nd and 4th beat of each
		measure.  Velocity mode allows Feel parameters to be 
		controlled by velocity info from external controllers, such
		as keyboards or pads.  Random Feel affects the other two
		to add random variations in nuance and accent.
 
		How big a difference does this Feel stuff make?  Like I said,
		I had been thinking about using the synths for drums - the
		M1 has pretty good ones - but if this significantly detracts
		from the rest of the synth (by robbing voices) or by clogging
		the MIDI channels, I'd rather cough up the extra bucks for
		the rythm box.  Opinions?
 
 
-- jdm
-- 
John David Miller                      [email protected]
Graphic Software Systems               uunet!gssc!jdm
9590 S.W. Gemini Dr.                   (503) 641-2200 (voice)
Beaverton, OR  97005-7161              (503) 643-8642 (FAX)

    ...about time somebody made a drum box. Price???
    
    /e

    Does anybody know if this includes pads?  (I can't imagine how...).
    If it doesn't, and it includes the sequencer, it could be a bear
    to program.  Maybe it can only be programmed from an external pad
    set.
    
    In any case, unless it does something my R-8 doesn't do, just being
    able to put it in a rack isn't a whole lot of incentive to trade
    up/over/down.
    
    len.
     

    re: .82
    
    My thoughts exactly.
    
    It sounds great if you don't use the sequencer - but if you don't
    you lose the Human Feel stuff (or that's my understanding of it)
    which to me is what puts it above other drum machines.
    
    An Alesis HR-16M I'd go for (if I couldn't afford an R-8) because
    there's no particular reason to use the Alesis sequencer, but it's
    a different story for the R-8.
    
    Anyway, if any of you are actually planning to dump your R-8's for
    R-8M's, give me a call.  I'll be glad to "take it off your hands".
    
    ;-)
    
    	db

one thing about the rack module (besides not needing shelf space) is that
it has room for *3* ROM cards, not just one like the R8 (that is what I
red anyway on USENET, can't remember the COMMUSIC posting of it).

What they really need is an R8 without any internal sounds and room for
6 or 8 ROM cards (and they need to include 3 or 4 of the cards with the
machine - ie, presets...).

Chad

    
    Says here that the price is the same for both units, FWIW:
    
From: [email protected] (Brian Matchick)
Date: 12 Feb 90 20:54:07 GMT
Organization: Bowling Green State University B.G., Oh.
 
   The R8m is the same list price as the R8.  $999.  I found a place
here in Bowling Green, Ohio which will (after much persuasion) sell 
me the R8 for $700.  This seems to be a good price sinse most Roland
dealers I've talked to won't deal at all.  Ensoniq and Roland dealers 
really suck when it comes to prices.  I think Ensoniq stuff is almost
worth the money, but (with several exceptions) Roland has never really
impressed me- for the price.  I thought music stores were suposed to 
have price wars, you know, free enterprise and all that...
 
-Brian
 
************************************************************************
 
"What is good, Phaedrus,     Brian Matchick         Bowling Green State
and what is not good?        5523 Bentwood Dr.      University- 
Need we ask anyone           Toledo, Ohio  43615    
to tell us these things?"    (419) 867-0849         
                  
 CS-NET addr-       matchick%[email protected]
 UUCP   addr-       ...!cbosgd!osu-cis!bgsuvax!matchick

    
    I've been trying to do a bulk dump/bulk load without success. I've
    been using the generic librarian in Personal Composer which is supposed
    to receive and send bulk system exclusive dumps. I got it to work
    with an ESQ-M, so I know it will work, but I can only get a partial
    dump (267 bytes - not many bytes!) from the R8. Sending the dump
    back to the R8 produces a Checksum Error.
    
    Could someone enlighten me as to what parameters must be setup on the
    R8? The manual says to set the RECEIVE channel to the base channel of
    the receiving setup - so I set it to 1 which is what Personal Composer
    expects. It didn't mention having to change the TRANSMIT channel of
    the R8 - it's set up per instrument anyway. Do you have to set any of
    the function parameters in the MIDI sub-menu to ON? ($CH MESSAGE,
    etc.)? The manual doesn't mention this if you do. Also, do you need
    to set any of these to ON to receive a bulk load?
    
    Thanks for any help you can offer!
    
    Bill

    
    
    I have been able to do this to cubase without a problem. I have the
    base send channel set to 1 and the receive channel set to 10. It sounds
    like your sequencer is giving up before the end of the dump.
    
    					Paul.  

    Paul,
    
    Is that that base send and receive channels of Cubase that you are
    talking about, or the R8? Could you elaborate as to what you have
    set on Cubase and what you have set on the R8. It sounds like you
    made no changes to the R8 default send and receive channels, but
    adjusted Cubase to have send channel = 1 and receive channel = 10.
    Did you have to adjust anything on the R8 to make this work?
    
    I don't think that I can change Personal Composer's base channel
    from the default of 1, so I'd have to tweak the R8.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bill
       

    
    
    No I leave cubase, as the recorder, alone, it just accepts midi sysex it
    knows nothing about midi channels. The only settings I have changed
    have been to the instrument receive settings on the R8.
    
    Are you trying to do an autosend and receive or is it manually
    instigated..
    
    					Paul.

    Having whimsically/offhandedly offered my R-8 for sale and having been
    taken up on it, I have acquired an R-8M (actually, all I have so far is
    the manual, but I'll have the actual hardware momentarily).
    
    A couple of observations:
    
    The -8M manual is actually understandable!  There were things about the
    R-8 that I didn't really "get" until I read the -8M's explanation of
    them.
    
    The -8M is more sensibly organized.  Drum sounds are structured around
    note number, rather than pad/bank; this makes a lot more sense for a
    unit that's driven by an outboard sequencer.
    
    The -8M *does* support feel patches; basically you can apply a
    clock-synched "groove" and a random variation to any one of 4 sound
    parameters (velocity, pitch, nuance, decay).  (I wish it had been
    possible to apply the groove and random variations to *different*
    parameters at the same time, but Roland had to put some form of zit on
    this otherwise perfect nose).  Each feel patch comprises 8 "sets",
    each set nominally applied to a different instrument; maybe it's possible
    to apply two sets to the same instrument to get the effect I want.
    You can specify 16 feel patches internally and another 16 in a RAM
    card.  Feel patches can be invoked by MIDI program change messages.
    
    The -8M understands ROM cards *by Roland card number*, so you can reference
    sounds on cards that aren't plugged in at the time and it will accept them.
    It allows for Roland to provide up to 30 different ROM cards.  It will
    accept 3 cards at a time, for a phenomenal number of instruments
    immediately accessible.  If you call up a patch that references a
    card that's not plugged in, it complains (tactfully).  I'm not sure
    what the implications of the named cards are for 3rd party ROM cards,
    but I have a strong suspicion it's "no dice". 
    
    Patches correspond to drum kits - a mapping of parameterized instruments
    to MIDI note numbers.  Patches can be layered, reducing the number of
    available sounds more or less in half.  Sorry, only two instruments can
    be layered together on a single note number.  You can store 32 patches
    internally and another 32 in a RAM card.  Patches can be invoked by
    MIDI program changed messages.  A program change map specifies what
    patch and/or feel patch gets invoked for each MIDI program change
    number.
    
    Now, if Roland will put the R-8's sequencer features (e.g., timing
    variations) into the MC-500's rhythm track in the next S-MRC software
    release, the MC-500/R-8M combo will almost satisfy my wildest fantasies
    for the ultimate drum machine.  The rhythm track's limitation of 32
    instruments (per song) is disappointing, but pitched instruments are
    easily handeled via the MC-500's phrase tracks and the R-8M's
    performance sections (4 of them - each allows an instrument parameter to
    be modulated by note number, and each can be on its own MIDI channel).
    
    The -8M's user interface is typically minimalist/cryptic.  Can't have
    everything.
    
    More impressions after I've actually had some time to play with it.
                                 

    Got my R-8M, played with it a little.
    
    One curious limitation is the -8M responds only to note numbers 21-108,
    i.e., the notes on a standard 88 key piano keyboard.  Thus of the 146
    sounds potentially available (68 internal + 3 * 26 per ROM card), you
    can actually only access 88 of them from a single patch.  In practice,
    not a serious limitation.  A "layered" patch restricts that further,
    though.
    
    The "user interface" is utterly obscure.  I may, after a while of using
    it, figure out what the general approach is, but for now, doing
    anything beyond sending MIDI messages to it requires reading the
    manual.  Luckily, most of this stuff falls into the "set and forget"
    category.
    
    More later after I've had more experience.
    
    len.
     

Does/Can the Roland R-8 respond to MIDI pitch bend? 

The reason I ask is this: I have a Roland PM-16 (pad-Midi converter) that can
do some neat tricks like map the velocity of a pad 'whack' into a varying
amount of pitch bend...

My HR16 cannot respond to pitch bend, so this feature is not prticularly
useful.   I was hoping the R-8 might be able to exploit this feature.
If not, then maybe I'll just use the pitch bend on some unsuspecting MIDI
synth. ;^)

/doug

    I received my Roland Users Group mag. today.  It has the new R8M in it,
    which is a rackmountable R8.
    
    Mike

    re .92 - yes, the R-8M (and presumably the R-8) responds to pitch bend.
    It can be enabled or disabled, and there's a parameter (oops, I should
    have noticed if it's per patch or global) that specifies the bend range
    in half steps, up to 12 (one octave).
    
    len.
     

re .94

Thanks Len!

Actually, I was just about to give up and call you on this.  ;^)

That's really exciting that the R8 can respond to pitch bend.  Have you been
able to use pitch-bend w/the R8 to yield any interesting results? 

If it works ok, then I think I'll give *serious* consideration to looking for
an R8 (or 8M) after Christmas... (I'll be so far in debt by then it'll just be
a *blip* on the Visa bill... %^/

Also, it looks like the R8 may be a little more "physically robust" (esp. for
gigging)  than the Alesis.  The more I use the HR16 as my sound source at home,
the less comfortable I think I'd feel using it  "live" without some sort of
backup...

/doug

	Hi,

	I own an R8 for some time now, and so far I had never found any 
difficulty in creating rhythm patterns. Now I'm stuck on the following 
pattern : it's a 4/4 bar containing 4 times the following sequence :

	                    

			x x x x x x x
			| | | | | | |
			+++++ | | | |
			+++++++++++++
                        +++++++++++++

			|   |
                        -----
                          3

			|           |
                        -------------
                              6

	So we have a triplet included in a sextuplet (I'm not sure
        about the terminology, but I suppose you'll understand).
        I may be missing something but I can't find a way to enter
        this pattern in the R8 using STEP entry (not real time entry).
	Any help from R8 masters will be appreciated.

Thanks,
Christian

	welcome to groups, or "grupetta" in Italian.
	What you have there is a 36th note.  There are 36 of them ina whole
	note.  the factors are 
	2 * 2 * 3 * 3.
	Unfortunately, I don't know anything about R8 rhythm composers, so I
	can't match them up.
	Can't you approximate it by dividing 36 into the number of
	clocks per whole note and using that number or something?
	This has been seen before.  I think it's in le Sacre du Printemps intro
	duction.
	tTom

    Tom's on to the problem - the R-8's resolution is 96 ticks per quarter
    note, or 384 ticks per whole note, into which 36 does not evenly go.
    Thus, the R-8 does not allow you to easily (if at all) express this.
    
    If you're willing to go to the trouble, you can approximate the desired
    effect, but you'll have to program your rhythm part outside of the R-8.
    
    On a 96 tick per quarter note sequencer, the 16th note triplets
    (sextuplets) each get 16 ticks (96 = 6 * 16).  In each sextuplet,
    two of the notes ( = 32 ticks) get played as triplets, i.e., the 32
    ticks get apportioned among 3 notes; the "fairest" way to do this is
    as (2 * 11) + 10.  So, two of the notes get 11 ticks and one gets 10.
    Which gets which?  Your call.  So each of your sextuplets will look
    like:
            6
     _______________
    /               \
      3
     ___
    /   \
    +-+-+--+--+--+--+
    +-+-+--+--+--+--+
    | | |  |  |  |  |
    / / /  /  /  /  /
                     
    10  11 16 16 16 16
      11
       
    By the way, if you have to solve this problem again, that is, dividing
    T clock ticks "evenly" among N notes, compute Q = quotient(T/N) and
    R = remainder(T/N).  Assign Q+1 ticks to R of the notes, and Q ticks
    to the remaining N-R notes.
    
    len.
    

	Thanks for the input, I was considering myself to create the pattern
using STEP entry mode for the last four notes of the sextuplet, then modify
it using REAL entry mode for the embedded triplet (with Quantisize set to 
HIGH). I'll try your solution too and take the most appropriate.

	By the way, does anybody know if ROLAND has or intends to release
a ROM card containing bass guitar sounds ?

Christian

    Regarding your 2nd query (bass guitar ROM card) - I assume you mean R-8
    ROM cards.  There seems to be a bass instrument of some sort on most of
    the cards I've seen.  I can check.  I think my R-8 manual included a
    sheet that listed all the sounds on all the currently available cards
    (9 of them?).  I'd be surprised if electric bass guitar weren't among
    them.  I know there's a string bass included on one of the jazz cards.
    
    len.
     

     That's right : I've seen three cards containg bass sounds .
Two for string bass (on card JAZZ and JAZZ BRUSH) and one for electronic
bass (synth) on card called ELECTRONIC (I think), but I haven't seen any
so far for electric bass guitar...    

Christian

I've had an R8 now for a month or so, and I've had a number of attempts
at reading the manual. However, this is my first drum machine and I've
found the documentation rather daunting.

I wonder if some of you R8 experts could help me with some (pretty trivial)
"how to do" type questions.

The first one that springs to mind is, "How do you copy a bar or bars
on an existing pattern to a new pattern (where the new pattern is going
to be longer than the copied bars)?"

Explanation:
I initialise (clear all instr), say, pattern 98 and specify a length
of 16 bars. I then want to try to copy pattern 99 to the first bar of pattern
98. Pattern 99 is a 1 bar pattern. When I do the copy as described in
the "pattern copy" section, pattern 98 then becomes a 1-bar pattern as well
(which I don't want).
From my experiments I haven't found another way of altering the # of bars
in a pattern other than when you do the clear all instr (pattern format?).
Is the answer to use "pattern append" (which could be fairly cumbersome)?
Am I misunderstanding how patterns should be used?

Thanks for any help,
*DC

    Don't feel bad Dave - Roland is NOTORIOUS for bad manuals.
    
    The Roland S-550 Sampler manual sets a new low for technical
    documentation IMHO. 
    
    
    		"You want good products or good manuals?"
    
    			- Chuck Vandemann, Roland Representative

    I'm not surprised that copying a pattern copies its length as well.
    I replaced my R-8 with an R-8M, so I no longer have the documentation
    and there's no analogous feature in the R-8M.
    
    len.
     

Thanks for the replies anyway.
I've started to really find my way around this beast after some hours of
"playing", and I can now do almost everything I want with it.