Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    While not exactly what you're talking about Dan, this might be of
    interest to some:
    
    I found an interesting "delay" feature of the Casio CZ-5000 that
    may also be present in some other synths.
    
    When the CZ is in "poly" mode (MIDI mode 3), if you wire MIDI out
    to MIDI in and select the same channel for send and receive, you
    get a strange doubling effect.  The synth responds to both the keyboard
    and the MIDI port, but it obviously can't do both instantaneously
    so one lags the other; the lag seems to vary which causes the tinbre
    to change as you play because the delay between the notes is not
    constant.  Playing very rapidly you can get some really bizarre
    flange-like effects until you hit a speed where you actually choke
    the synth up and it starts missing notes!!!  Of course, doing this
    cuts the polyphony in half.
    
      

	I played with that feature in the MX-8 for a bit. It's mildly 
	mildly interesting IMO, but it sounds different than the signal path
	version of delay.

	It also doesn't work well for complex voices (i.e. stacked voices, etc)
	that make the SGU go over it's voice limit. I would imagine that if
	you had invested in SGUs first, then an MX-8, it would be of some
	use, but having at least three DDLs it's not nearly as nifty sounding
	as using one of those.

	Not to say it isn't a good option for some, it's kind of a non-issue
	for me.

	/pjh

    I'd also think that it burns up voices faster than a Maserati.
    
    I don't have a clear idea of what your application is Dan, but are
    you aware that there are a few digital delay units that can sync
    to MIDI clock or various other external signals (like tapping time
    on a foot pedal)?
    
    It sounds like that might be what you really want.
    
    	db

    db beat me to it - there are units that sync to MIDI, although I don't
    know what the price ranges might be.

    A friend of mine used to use an Akai MIDI delay with his DX7 to "fatten
    the sound".  I didn't think it did a great deal to help out the sound,
    and like Dave said, it ate voices like the blob that ate New York. 

    I tried fooling with some timed delay one w/ my MIDIverb II.  There
    were a few delay settings that were close, but didn't quite match the
    tempo ... so I changed the tempo to match the delay.  No big deal, but
    certainly not optimal. 

    Let us know if you find anything.

-b

	Sorry to make you all yawn.  If you're that bored, why bother 
responding?

	I have heard of MIDI synch delay units, but they are not a high priority
for my equipment want list at this time.  In fact, the very fact that I am 
trying to accomplish it via sequencer is in the hopes of by-passing the need to
buy another unit.

	The main reason I'm inquiring is to find out if anyone has discovered
any particular 'trick' to making it sound right - particularly in the area of
the curve of the fade-out, but any experience that applies would be of interest.

	Also, perhaps I misnamed this note.  I'm not specifically using a 
function of any hardware called MIDI DELAY (my TX81Z has this built in, but I 
never used it because it seemed to fade out too abruptly).  Perhaps what I'm
doing would better be called 'Sequencer delay'.

	Dan

>If you're that bored, why bother responding?

	Because we are entitled to opinions like everyone else, we have each
	had experiences with said "technology", and that's what makes this
	conference tick. Is there a problem with that, or am I reading too
	much into the remark? (uncharacteristic of you, Dan)

	My apologies for raising the issue.

	/pjh

    Someone, PLEASE stop me before I respond again!

RE < Note 1861.6 by PAULJ::HARRIMAN "Menus 'n mice...Men Usin' Mice" >

	It's difficult to avoid taking those titles as a personal affront when
you enter a topic that is of interest to you and recieve yawns.  Sorry, that's
just the way it came across to me.

	I suppose if there had been only one, I would have ignored it.

	Dan

RE < Note 1861.7 by LEDDEV::HASTINGS >

    Ok, ok ... since I yawned (without covering my mouth, I might add) I'll
    apologize.  I was not yawning the topic, but the tool.

    MIDI Delay as a hardware device is (IMO) a waste of $$$ ... unless, of
    course, it's built into a device as is the case with the MX8 or the
    TX81z.  I wouldn't pay any extra for the feature, though. 

    As far as using a SEQUENCER to program "echoed" responses to a
    particular note (series) ... well, that's an entirely different
    ballgame. In my 3rd submission to COMMUSIC IV (was it really that long
    ago?), I used a very similar technique on the snare drum to "emulate" a
    sync'd delayed snare.  The initial hit was at velocity 117, the "echo"
    a � note later at velocity 48.  I thought it was effective.

    I'm not sure what to do about trying to program a sync'd delay with a
    patch that changes timbre w/velocity ... except maybe pick another
    patch or use MIDI volume (but of course the MKS-7 won't respond to
    velocity, like you said).  Something you might try (if the desired
    "delay" is always at the same point musically [read: not ad lib]) ...
    echo to a different patch.  Eg, play your riff using a FATSYNTH patch
    and sequence the echo riff using FARTBELL (or another patch that
    doesn't change color w/ velocity).

-b

    Note that Brad's intentions in saying "Yawn" were significantly
    less offensive than what people imbued as his intentions.
    
    I.E. he was not saying "What a boring topic".  Instead he was
    saying "Yes, I've thought about the applications of MIDI delay
    and they don't excite me."
    
    People are getting touchy in this file.  In any other file (including
    MUSIC which I moderate) I'd sigh and hit "next unseen".  This
    conference is sorta special to me.
    
    As I said back in the moderation issues topic, most of these kinds
    of things are due to people jumping to the worst conclusions about
    other peoples motives.  If you don't believe this, I'd like to 
    urge you to read the article about cognitive therapy in last week's
    Newsweek (I think it's the one with Ron & Nancy on the cover).
    
    Sure, I don't expect anyone will read that article, but that's your
    loss  ;-)  (It really had a lot of stuff that is familiar to any
    noter).
    
    	db - stepping down from the soapbox with a red face

    re Sequencer delay.. I did this recently 'cause I couldn't find
    a preset delay in my MIDIfex (I) that matched the tempo of the piece,
    and I didn't want to CHANGE the tempo of the piece.
    
    What I wanted was simply an afterbeat on a 'clave' sound.  Using
    Performer, I first isolated it into its own track, then copied it
    to a second track.
    
    Some arithmetic gave me the beat/ticks that each clave hit needed
    to be delayed.. so I CUT the ENTIRE track, set the time pointer
    ahead 1BEAT/nnnTICKS, and PASTED.  Then I shrunk the velocity by
    35% (after some trial/error).. yes it uses another voice but the
    clave hits are so brief that it doesn't impact polyphony on hte
    EMAX, that I can hear.  And it was the only way to get the effect
    I sought.
    
    karl

    another thing.. I wanted a stereo effect for the delayed clave,
    so, in the EMAX, I copied the clave (1 note) to another note location,
    and altered its PAN position to hard right.  (This doesn't cost
    sample memory, just analog filter settings, etc.. a few bytes)
    
    Then on Performer on the MAC I transposed the delayed track (1 note
    repeatedly.._) up to the new note I'd chosen on the EMAX.. instant
    panned delay !!
    
    karl

    If this is any use.......
    
    EZ-Track-Plus allows you to specify a variable delay for each track. Seems
    that you could achieve the desired effect using this feature, together
    with appropriate track copying/chunk-editing, etc. 
    
    Surely other sequencers have this (or a similar) feature. EZ-Track-Plus
    is after all, only an 'entry-level' sequencer.
    
    Jim Burke

RE < Note 1861.14 by MUNCSS::BURKE >
 
	My Dr. T's will do the same thing.  If I were to have taken the time to
create a totally isolated track wherein I placed the part I wanted to 'echo', I
could 'call' it as many times as I wanted (costing me only 1 sequence event for
each call) with a gradually decreasing volume.  I still may try this for another
section of the song, but I want to have a better idea of how to handle the 
fade-out curve.  With each iteration of the 'echo', I can specify just how much
I want it to decrease in velocity.  I don't think I can select a straight 'minus
ten' each time (I think I only want three repeats, anyway).  I suspect the 
fade-out takes on a more complex curve.  

	Dan

	I was just going to let it blow over, but a voice inside me keeps on
telling me that its not really 'cleared up'.

	I apologize to all involved (i.e. Paul and Brad) for jumping the gun and
getting touchy about your chosen reply titles.  Since I know both of you 
personally (in varying degrees), I should never have been so touchy.  I would
imagine part of my defensiveness has to do with a communication error.  While
I labelled this note in reference to a 'technology', what I was actually asking
for comment on was a 'technique'.  Therefore, it may have been hard for you to
understand why I would take such an offense against a mere option being found in
some MIDI devices, while I was sitting there thinking you were calling my
technique (using a sequencer to create delay) boring.

	Dan

    Hey - no apology needed.  Misunderstandings are bound to occur via this
    medium.  8-)'s to all.

    As for a fade-out curve, you'll find this is patch dependent.
    *Generally*, the further down the velocity scale you go, the more
    noticable a change will be.  In other words, -10 might be to 127 what
    -5 might be to 60.  It shouldn't take long to experiment. 

    And, since Edd didn't jump in on this fracas, Pffffffffffffft 2 U. 

&*}

	No offense, Dan. I've taken worse beatings in conferences, and just 
	last week too. 

	I think if you can afford the voices it's probably not a bad technique
	but I don't use it, since I tend to push the limits of the sampler and
	the midibass is lousy at that kind of echo since it ain't multi-
	anything.

	/pjh

    If anyone actually wants a midi delay ( i had one...in my opinion
    useless)..Maggio Music has the Akai rack mount MEsomethingorother
    for $25 bucks..........718-259-4468