Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Buy a used Octapad and some cheap crystal-type microphones.
    
    Build out of wood a set of foot-kickable pads, isolated from each
    other and a frame by rubber bands.
    
    Epoxy the crystal-type mikes to the kickpads.
    
    Enjoy.  (you may have to wear a hard-tipped shoe or boot to get
    dependable triggering. :-) )
    
    	-Bill

    There's a note in here (or maybe DRUMS::?) by me regarding the
    Roland PM-16 MIDI drum controller. It may be a little outta your
    price range, maybe not, as you'd only need one pad...
    
    Edd

    Roland makes a kick pad controller.  It is listed in the Music Emporium
    catalog for $179. And you still need to have a bass drum pedal
    to use it. It's not cheap, but it's available.

Thank you all.

Re:  .3  Anyone  know  what  this  is  called?    Does it put out a "pad
     trigger" or does it put out MIDI?

/Mitch

    re .3, .4 - it just a regular drum pad (i.e., basically a microphone
    attached to a board) set up so a standard drum pedal can be mounted
    on it.  It produces a voltage pulse that is sent to a convertor
    box.
    
    I don't know of any cheap way to satisfy your requirement.  Getting
    the pulse is easy; any $5 microphone will suffice, and a little
    mechanical ingenuity is all that's needed to "kick the mic".  It's
    reliably converting the voltage pulse into a MIDI note on with velocity
    encoding that's the trick, and if you want to be a good MIDI citizen,
    sending the corresponding note off a little while later.  Since
    this is a nice software/microprocessor application, most conversion
    boxes do it for at least a half dozen pads (pulse sources) at the
    same time, and with a lot of generality (e.g., making the note number
    sent alterable, controlling the mapping from force (pulse amplitude)
    to velocity, making gate time (time from note on to note off)
    adjustable, determining what MIDI channel the message gets sent on,
    etc.).
    
    I suspect if you're good with logic design and have access to a
    cheap supply of parts, you could build a special purpose box for
    a lot less than one of the general purpose boxes cost.
       
    I don't know of any "integral pedal/convertor" units available.
    All I've seen are:
    
    	a) Pads designed to be struck by a standard kick drum pedal;
    these just send a trigger pulse and require a "pad to MIDI" convertor.
    Pads are basically real simple to make, but seem to be very high
    markup items.  Maybe the cosmetics are expensive?  And you still
    need a bass drum pedal.  Pads run $80 - $200.  Pedals run about
    the same.
    
    	b) Pedals designed to send a trigger pulse; these don't need
    a pad, but still require a "pad to MIDI" convertor.  These "trigger
    pedals" run $100 to $200.
    
    	c) "Pad to MIDI" convertors, which aren't designed to be hit
    or kicked.  These run as high a $1000 or more.  I don't know what
    the cheapest one you can get is.
                                    
    
    len.
    

Thanks len.  If I had  alot  of  money, I sure would get me one of those
     "pad brains" and some pads.

...I was kinda hoping someone would say, "Get the  xxx  MIDI  mapper for
     $80 and use your hold/damper footswitch".  I think this  would work
     if  there  exists  a mapper that will translate "hold pedal on/off"
     messages into "note on/off" messages.

Cheap mappers anyone?

/Mitch

    I saw an article on a kick pedal that emits MIDI note/velocity..
    $200..  in a ? recent Electronic Musician.
    
    I think that a keyboard controller like the KX88 could be programmed
    to use its 'sustain' pedal to emit at least a certain MIDI note and
    (unfortunately) preprogrammed velocity.  The 'up' note (when the
    pedal is released) could be programmed with velocity zero.  Or have
    it emit the same MIDI note number and a lower or similar velocity
    for dynamite bass drum flams..
    
    KX88 pros ?  Any comments ?  Paul K, you there ?  What you think?
    
    karl

Re: -.1

Hi Karl, Thanks  for  replying.    You  mentioned an Electronic Musician
     article.  Could  you  be  referring  to  the  ad  on page 74 of the
     November 1988 issue?  This is an ad for "E Pedals".  I also thought
     that this thing might have  put out MIDI, since the ad says nothing
     about what it puts out...but, I looked up the review of this device
     in the May 1988 issue and found out that it only puts out a trigger
     signal. (price: $200)

I'm still investigating the possibilities.

/Mitch

    Yes, sorry, Mitch, i found the 5/88 review of the 'E-Pedal' and
    found it doesn't send MIDI but rather a drum trigger that needs
    a 'brain' for conversion.
    
    karl

    Cheap solution:  Get a Yammy DD-5 ($80), and tie a "hitting implement"
    to your foot (or build something more elegant, if you like).
    
    Rodney M.

    
    
    Re kx88 -4 (I think)
    
    Yes you could get the KX88 to send an appropriate note-on from one
    of the pedals. Interesting thought that. You could be playing a
    piano piece with the hands and hitting the bass drum with your foot.
    
    Shades of a one-man-band. You know cymbals between the knees and all
    that. Len could do a piece on embellishing the knee tremble.
    
    I'll try it tonight.
    
                               Paul.
                            (only 256 notes to go)
    			    (We get a whole week at Christmas)                  
    

There was some  recent  discussion  going on in the conference about how
     adding  a  drum  pad  controller  to  a  MIDI  setup  can  increase
     productivity.

The way I see it,  adding  a  "kick"  pedal should increase productivity
     more than adding a set of  pads.    Especially  if  you're going to
     quantize.

I'm sure this will become a matter  of  opinion, but here's my argument.
     Any comments? Shouldn't we all want kick pedals before pad sets?

On one hand, using a kick pedal  in conjunction with a keyboard (for the
     other drum and cymbal parts) would allow me  to play with two hands
     and a foot.  For me, this would be very natural and would result in
     easy recordings of the drum patterns in my head.   The  big plus is
     that I can do most patterns in one pass.  The  only  drawback I can
     think  of  is that velocity info might not be as realistic as  with
     pads.

On the other hand, using a set of pads without a  pedal  seems  like  it
     would result in  having to do two passes on many patterns.  Also, I
     don't think it would  allow  me  to easily play the snare/kick drum
     interactions that seem so natural  when  played  with hand and foot
     (eg, when I play air drums, I do it with hand and foot).

    Well I'll start out by destroying my credibility: I didn't recognize
    the value of pads until very recently.
    
    With that caveat...
    
    I can't imagine myself having any use for a kick pedal.
    
    My goal isn't to be able to play the entire drum part in one pass.
    
    I can't coordinate my hands and feet in the same way a drummer can
    and there's no need for me to do that.  The way I usually create
    drum patterns is to lay down the bass and snare on the first pass,
    add HH on the next, pass, and do fills and cymbals in multiple subsequent 
    passes.   Then I step edit things like velocity, overplaying, etc.
    
    So why the pads?  Well, like most people, I am a pretty good air
    drummer.   I can definitely air drum the fills I want.  I would
    describe devices like the Octapad as being "closer" to air-drumming
    than using the builtin tiny pads on the machine, which makes it easier
    for me to translate my "air drumming" into something that can be
    recorded on a sequencer.
    
    The kick pedal just doesn't fit into that because there's not much I
    can do with my feet that I can't do better with my hands.  (Except
    perhaps stuff like walk, run and jump. ;-{)
    
    	db

> < Note 1829.13 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Yo!" >
>     Well, like most people, I am a pretty good air
>     drummer.   I can definitely air drum the fills I want.

>     The kick pedal just doesn't fit into that because there's not much I
>     can do with my feet that I can't do better with my hands.  (Except

When "air-drumming", do  you use your hand to emulate the kick part?  If
     so, then I can understand.  But if not, then I don't.

/Mitch

ps. Drums were  first  instrument  I was capable of playing, so it comes
     very natural to me to want to play with at least three appendages.

    re: .13
    
    No, I don't emulate the kick part, nor the hi-hat pedal.
    
    I don't that that what I do is much different from what the average
    music fan does when he "drums along" to a record.  You either tap
    your hands on something or 'air drum' and leave out the kick part
    because it's usually doing something fairly simple anyway.
    
    	db

re .14, db sez he won't do with his feet what he can do better with
his hands:

i've been reading with mild amusement. anyway, 
   I WOULD    K I L L    
for a couple of the drum workshop midi foot controllers.
I would settle for the yamaha's, the simmon's, the rolands, etc,
whether I had to add a beater to a pad or whatever.

I find myself programming in foot parts by hand and OVER playing the
HECK out them! Boy, I need foot pedals to make me sound more realistic.
Plus, with my octapad and 2 pedals and hr16, i can jam anywhere. (as
ralph will attest to) & pack up in a suitcase - & this is GREAT going
into a midi studio to bring my own kit in a bag.

I was so desperate, I MADE a foot controller out of an old coffee can with 
my bass beater attached to it, some internal op-amp circuits, etc.  It worked. 
Sort of.

Well, anyway, my feet and my hands work great together. It's not difficult
doing feet - i do them first (by hand on the buttons or [usually] via the
pads) then embellish with my typical sticking over top of that with the 
octapads. (love those pads).  But, reiterating, if you can do it all with
your hands, don't OVER do it on the foot stuff. Even Cobham, Bellson, or
what's his face with Def Lep can only do so much...& if you want realism...
well, watch your step!  :-)

                                           that was a pun.
                              get it?
           'watch your step'?
foot pedals?
           over playing feet parts with hands?  
                   step? 

                                                  zzzzzzzzz

(boy you guys are letting me off EZ.)

>    ps. Drums were  first  instrument  I was capable of playing, so it comes
>     very natural to me to want to play with at least three appendages.
    
    Ahem.  At least one of said appendages are hands, yes ?
    
    
    
    ;^))
    
    Couldn't help myself!
/doug

yes,two are hands,two are feet;and always be careful playing the hi-hat
    with anything else!!!!
   - Bill
    

           Review:     Drum      Workshop      5000      TE
                  Electronic/Acoustic Bass Drum Pedal
                             leitz 5/12/89
Cost: 

approx  $239  (list is higher, but this is the price that everywhere I
checked with is selling them for - cost the same as the EP1).

The Test Configuration I used:

DW5000TE into a Roland Pad-80 (Octapad  2),  which  was  midi'd  to  a
Roland  D-110.  Union Music has this one I tested in stock (as of last
night).

Overview:

Based on Drum Workshop's successful 5000 T chain drive pedal with full
floor  plate,  the  TE  incorporates an electronic housing immediately
under the foot plate of the pedal. The housing incorporates a  pickup,
2  control  knobs,  and  1  quarter-inch  jack on the left side of the
pedal, and a 9V wall bug jack on the right hand side. To the right  of
the  housing is a strike post (a safety feature, I gather more to keep
the pedal from banging full velocity on the electronic  housing/pickup
than a sensing point). The pedal foot board has 2 foam rubber squares,
one which hits the strike post,  the  other  (again,  presumably)  for
safety  to  cushion  the hit on the housing (since the foam that meets
the strike post does obviously provide some further downward motion  -
to  keep you from jarring your foot against a hard resistance). On the
left side there is also a chrome bracket that acts  as  an  additional
safety  precaution  against  striking  the  housing  or knobs from the
pedal.

Highlights:

Ok, as you're wondering: I said the pickup is on the housing under the
pedal.  Unlike  DW's  EP1  which is a standalone electronic foot pedal
that has a protruding strike point which gets hit by the foot  pedal's
beater, the TE can function as a full acoustic bass drum pedal.

The 2 control knobs allow you to adjust sensitivity and 'impact'. This
is interesting:

Using the pedal as BOTH acoustic beater AND  electronic  trigger,  you
can  adjust  the  impact  knob to trigger your sound module before, in
synch with, or after the acoustic beater hits the head. This  knob  is
a basic potentiometer with about 15 clicks, so there's various  places
you  can  image  the  trigger - way before the acoustic beat, a little
before it, during it, etc, etc.

The sensitivity is a nice idea, but somewhat touchy. Theoretically you
can  adjust  the pedal to sense the strike and trigger on harder beats
than softer ones. I really didn't get this to  work  too  well.  There
seemed  to be about 15 positions on this knob also, but only the top 3
or 4  yielded  something  I  would  call  sensitivity.  Another  click
downward and no matter how hard I stomped, I couldn't trigger the d110
I was using for drums sounds.  Which brings me to:

Zits:

1)  With  sensitivity  set high, it seemed to function well as a stand
alone device and as an acoustic bass  drum  beater  (as  spec'd).  The
lower  the sensitivity setting, the more I worried about squashing the
housing, electronics and all; theoretically (again, - I've  used  that
word  a couple times), the strike post, rubber cushions, and the chain
of the beater itself should keep that from happening.  (But  it  still
didn't make me feel warm and fuzzy about the design).

2)  Another  WALL  BUG:  YAHHHHH.  ESPECIALLY under foot in a drum kit
where there's already a cable coming out the left side to the  octapad
(or  whatever  you  want  to use). Combined with a couple pedals, this
gets old REAL fast.

3)  This  is minor: There are no "spurs" to screw into the floor since
the bracket on the left side of the housing doesn't allow enough  room
for  a  spur  on that side. The holes are there for some, so you could
filch them from some other DW pedal and try to force  them  in.  Using
the  pedal  standalone,  it  would have a tendancy to want to drift or
wander during heavy use.

Conclusion:

At the same price as the EP1, it makes a high priced acoustic pedal if
you  DON'T use the trigger. As a trigger, the design just doesn't feel
right. Generally the resistance to  foot  pressure  is  similar  to  a
regular  pedal,  but  rather  than striking something with a beater to
trigger a signal, the foot plate is actually doing it for you. Without
the  weight of a beater to bring back the pedal in a "normal" fashion,
(to a normal position in "normal" speed) the 'feel' was a little  off.
Maybe  this  was  more perceived than actual: because I couldn't see a
beater whipping around hitting something, it "felt weird".  Using  the
pedal  as  a  trigger only WITH the beater also felt weird and gave me
some unwanted "jump" in the pedal when  the  leverage  of  the  beater
overswung  it's  normal  strike  zone  and  torqued  the pedal upwards
(slightly, but enough).

The  one  real  nifty  feature  of  acoustic and electronic triggering
seemed out-weighed by the slight weirdness and zits. Anyway,  you  can
always  plant  a  barcus-barry pickup on the bass drum head and offset
triggers (if you want to) using some other means. (This is what I  can
do today using an acoustic beater and an HR16's offset feature).

Bottom line:

I didn't buy it, and probably won't. I'll probably go for the straight
EP1  or  possibly the EPR (which allows you to use DW's EP1 base plate
and pickup with a standard any-old-beater).

Still a neat idea. Could be improved on.

Betcha didn't think anybody could write 108 lines about a drum  pedal,
huh? (Well, besides Len that is...)

    Way to go, Butch!
    
    len.