Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    How much do you want to spend?. Anything from a Casio to an Emulator
    III will be recommended if you don't specify!

    You've come to the right place, but be warned. Trying to get
    informationout of this conference is like trying to get a drink
    of water out of a firehose. (you tend to get a bit more than you
    can handle ;-} )
    
    There is so much out there that you really should plan on taking
    a loooong time to figure out what MIDI means to you. Or if you have
    an unlimited budget, buy whatever looks nice and learn from there.
    
    One point you really want more than 10 voice capability. No, you
    won't be playing with your nose. If you look at any piano score
    I think you'll have to look a while to find many places that have
    mode than 8 notes simultaneously. BUT when you get into MIDI on
    of the first things you will probable want to do is layer two sounds,
    (ex: strings plus piano) This layering now means that for every
    single note you play two of the synth voices are going to be used.
    (play 8 and 16 are used.) You should see that you can very quickly
    use up voices on a synth even if you don't use more than ten fingers.
    
    Running out of voices on a synth can be very annoying especially
    on legato type sounds like strings. As the synth "steals" voices
    from one sound to play the new notes the strings will get chopped
    off. This problem is also compounded when you use a sustain pedal.
    
    So now you are probably asking "How many note capability should
    I look for?" The answer is unfortunately complicated. It really
    depends on the synth in question and how it creates it's sounds.
    Different manufacturers have different ways of producing polyphony
    and multitimbrality (sp?). Quite a bit has been said on these topics
    throughout this conference. If you don't have the time to read all
    of it (ha!) I would suggest SET SEEN/SINCE=<within 1 calendar year>.
    Since the technology is changing so rapidly anything over a year
    old *may* not be as useful to you as info from the past year.
    
    		regards,
    		Mark
    

My suggestion.

If I recall the base note, it was mentioned that different things were
read here but that more info was wanted, so here is my idea.

Go to every store you can think of and tell the salesman your dilema.  Ask him
for his recommendations and ask to play/fiddle with everything he recommends
(as well as everything else in the store).  DO NOT BUY ANYTHING, no matter
how tempting anything looks.  At least just yet.  All your visits to stores
are just fact-finding.  Then get all the literature on everything your've
looked at (and stuff you haven't).  Remember things with sound and features
you find useful, outstanding, whatever.  Make a list of the stuff that you
really liked and come back to COMMUSIC with this list and do a
DIR/TITLE=mumble and DIR/KEY=mumble (no hyphens in product names) and read
everything that has already been said about your favored products.  Concurrently
read the manufacturers literaturte on the products.  Then, after digesting this,
come in here again into COMMUSIC and ask specific questions about the stuff
you like and are interested in.  Specific is best left to you to decide.
Then go again and play with the toys you liked.  Think it over in comparison
to your needs and goals.

Now return to the stores with cash/cheque/credit card/revolver (no, don't
really do that) and buy that which you have decided.  It should be earliest
on your second visit to a store and preferably the third or fourth visit
before you buy anything.

It is not that we don't mind answering questions.  We *LOVE* to answer 
questions, but the answers become more meaningful the narrower the question.

The question "I would like to get into MIDI, what do I buy?" is a very broad
question.  some would say (db?) "Get an Ensoniq, man, they are the best"  
another would say, "No man, Roland D50 rules", and then Edd would say ,
"Can you say Y, Y, Yam, Yamah, Yamaha <whew>".  This info is useless.

Now questions like "Wow man, the D50 sure looks good, has anybody seen 
limitations in its use as a live controller?" or whatnot will get better
answers, at least more meaningful :-)

Anyway, there you have it.

Most importantly, don't get trapped into buying on your first visit.  
Invariably, what you buy is not what you want in the end.  Play with everything
and decide if it fits your goals, your  budget, etc.  Ask questions here.
BUY, enjoy.

Chad

Also look into the DECMS bboard and the current prices notes before you buy.
And remember to mention DECMS and to bargain when buying.  Almost nothing
more than 2 months on the market need sell for list.

Chad

    note that suburban stores change list price.  never pay list price.
    metropolitan stores directed at rock musicians are cheaper (don't
    go to classically oriented stores like piano stores or such) and
    mail order is the cheapest but offer like no support except returns
    and exchanges (good luck).  so go to a store for rockers, unless
    you buy one of the cheaper casio or YAMAHA keyboards at Service
    Merchanside, Lechermeres, or Toys 'era' Us
    or like that there, and watch for a sale.
    
    I have been calling government offices all over to find out how
    to pay taxes on out of state purchases, but havnt found out how
    yet.  back at you.

    Tom

    .3 has a point. Asking which MIDI gear to get is like saying I wanna
    get married which woman should I ask? 
    
    You seem to have *some* idea of what you want however. I would
    recommendthat you get a keyboard with Velocity Sensitive keys
    especially if you were trained on the piano. Those trained on the
    Organ may not feel as strong a need for this. Here is a quick list
    of "must haves" IMHO.
    
    	* Velocity Sensitive keys
    	* Aftertouch - I prefer polyphonic aftertouch but its usefulness
    			is debatable
        * 76 keys minimum - I would get an 88 if I could afford/lift
    			one.
        * 16 note Polyphonic minimum
        * MIDI IN OUT THRU - do I need to mention this?
    	* must be able to change programs - (ie:sounds)
    
    There are several keyboards in the $500 range that can satisfy this
    criteria. Check them out for starters.
    
    If you want to got the "workstation" route (doncha love buzzwords?
    :-) You will have to pay $1000 to $2000. Check out the Ensoniq ESQ-1,
    SQ-80 or the EPS (warning: I am of the Ensoniq religion). Also look
    at the Korg M1. If you opt for a built in sequencer make sure it
    has a viable means of storage, disk or otherwise. Consider the cost
    of the storage media ($0.85-$2.00 disks, approx $90 some memory
    cartridges.You did say that you have a Mac for the sequencer part.
    Will you be performing and hauling it around? What will you do?
    The answer to these questions should affect your decision.
                                                              
    Obsolecsence (sp?) is a plague in electronic music. Minimize it
    by insisting on a few essentials as offered here. Read, shop, learn,
    get educated, (save big bucks).
    
    	good luck,
    	Mark

>I have been calling government offices all over to find out how
>to pay taxes on out of state purchases, but havnt found out how
>yet.  back at you.

I'll tell you how it's supposed to work:
    
    1. Buy from out of state and pay no state tax.
    
    2. Get CAUGHT or surrender yourself at tax time.
    
    3. Pay MASS taxes PLUS a fine PLUS interest PLUS any other penalties.
    
Steve

    Seems like the concept of taxing a transaction that spans state
    boundaries (by a state) is unconstitutional.
    
    The pivotal case was decided in 1881, I believe.  Had to do with
    NY trying to impose a transit tax upon goods going from NJ to Conn.
    Very messy, went all the way to the US Supreme Court...  NY lost,
    by the way.
    
    Same case is also the legal basis for the Feds not allowing a
    state/city/etc. to forbid the transit of chemical/nuke wastes through
    their boundaries.  The states have to allow it; the most a state/city
    can do is schedule it to minimize hazard to the public. 
    
    -----
    
    But the more important question is this: Do you know of anyone who
    has been "caught"?   Personally, that is?  Or their names?  Anecdotal
    stories doesn't count.                                 
    
    And remember- NH police arrest any MASS cop caught loitering near
    the NH liquor stores (i.e. copying license plate numbers, radioing
    plates ahead, etc).  NH also hassles MA cops loitering near fireworks
    stands, etc.
    
    Aint it wonderful?
    	-Bill
    
    

    Some one in another conference said Dukakis's tax cheater's plan
    is to have NH and CT report credit card purchases to MA tax people,
    and that some people have indeed received bills for unpaid taxes.
    Tom

    
    WARNING rathole WARNING!!!
    
    (I guess when the Brad's away the noters will play :-}  )
    

    re .all
    
    Note 1825.2,LEDDEV::HASTINGS
       thanks, for those voice pointers... I feel better now about
    justifying more than 8!!! When you asked the rhetorical question
    "How many voices", I assume you are like most people, and the desired
    answer is "As many as I can get for as little as possible" -- but
    in reality, is a "voice" like the partials in the MT32?? This would
    mean there are 32 "voices" in the MT32. Well, in reality, what I
    am looking for here is a continuation of the dialog on the question
    "how many voices??" 
    
    To help it along, I am not a performer, but have been, would like
    to publish sheet music (I've got a large collection of
    multi-nationality music that I would like to hear!!!), and several
    of my friends are musicians "for real", and would like to use the
    MAC to publish music, but require tools to do that -- so I guess
    I'm saying that now I'm heavy on the entry side, but need to hear
    the sounds I'm choosing as I arrange pieces. Also, I like to play
    in tunes that I hum in my head... capturing those would be nice,
    too. Oh yeah - I guess I'm also saying that this set-up would not
    be ported around (versus a performer-type).
    
    Chad and Tom - thanks for the reminder not to pay anything at retail!!!
    My checkbook (and wife) thank you!!  :-) 
    
    Mark Hastings - the list you gave me was great!! *That* I can (and
    will) take into stores with me!! I also agree with you regards the
    obsolescence "feature" of synths these days - which made me start
    to think along the lines: get a controller keyboard, and seperate
    Sound Gen Box/Unit, and make them play with the MAC "properly",
    which automatically teaches me what I need to add another "box"
    into the setup down the road, and not lose operability. If anyone
    has remarks on this, it would be most appreciated!!
    
    
    About shopping around... I've been doing that for the most part
    of 1988, and the itch is about to kill me -- I swear I either have
    to buy a synth, or go into the emergency ward!!! The burn marks
    on the pants pockets from the checkbook has been terrible -- only
    akin to those I read about in this notesfile :-)  :-)  :-)
    
    Bruce Evans
    
    PS: about price... I've learned a long time ago, that price is the
    *last* thing I want to be concerned about on subjects like this,
    since it is so negotiable. Naturally, however, it is symbiotically
    part of the deal!! Truth be known, I'm looking in the $1.2k - $2k
    range. My budget stops at $2k - which has to include s/w, cables,
    midi boxes, keyboard, SGU (if any). Pretty aggresive, as our
    salespeople call it!!! Comments?

    < Note 1825.10 by DOOBER::EVANS >
>which made me start
>to think along the lines: get a controller keyboard, and seperate
>Sound Gen Box/Unit, and make them play with the MAC "properly",
>which automatically teaches me what I need to add another "box"
>into the setup down the road, and not lose operability. 
    
    Bruce, this is exactly what I did.  My first MIDI purchases were
    a KX88 Midi controller keyboard (makes no sounds, but has good,
    'piano-like' action), a small Alesis digital reverb (MIDIverb I)
    and a rack-mount (though no rack) Roland MKS-20 Digital Piano unit.
    This was a monotimbral (one 'piano' at a time) 16-voice unit.
    
    Soon after that I got a used 512K Mac with 2 400K drives, and Performer
    from Mark of the Unicorn.  As I only had the Roland piano, I didn't
    record with Performer much.  Eventually I purchased a Yamaha Fb01 
    (8 voice multitimbral synth rack unit) and an inexpensive Yamaha
    mixer, KM802... Then I purchased a semi-pro E-Mu Systems' EMAX rack 
    sampler, a rack to put it in, a patch bay, and a MIDI switcher unit.  
    Sold the Fb01.  Bought a MIDIfex unit.  Sold the Roland piano unit 
    and bought a Kurzweil 1000PX rack.  Through all of this I retained 
    the KX88 as a master controller and just swapped SGU's as my budget 
    permitted.  The Mac is a bit old but still reliable.
    
    I recently added a 14-bit PCM VCR for stereo mixdowns and am busily
    trying to become a record company while maintaining my status as
    a world-class triathlete while getting my PH.D in Nuclear Physics.
    (just kidding about the last)
    
    karl in sunny WARM Tucson AZ

    Don't forget to mention your prize-winning bagel recipe, Professor.
    
    Edd (basking in the glory of a real MAN'S winter locale...)
    
    Edd

    < Note 1825.12 by WEFXEM::COTE "Sing with the clams, knave!" >
                       -< Anyone can survive Tucson... >-

    ... in the summer you can quite literally fry eggs on the hoods
    of cars ...
    
    Dark blue Mercedes taste the best.

Bruce,
    
    Glad to be able to help. I sympathize with your predicament. The
    issue of what to buy has been one that still haunts me ever since
    I got turned on to MIDI. You have given some key information on
    which to base recommendations. $2k and the fact that you will be
    in a studio/recording mode.
    

Integrated vs Modular                                           

    Other notes have picked up on your idea of buying keyboard controller
    and separate modules. The argument is over Integrated (everything in
    one package) vs Modular (everything as a separate module). The pros and
    cons can take on religious overtones. Also be aware that the two sides
    of the argument are not mutually exclusive. 
    

Modular                                  
    
    I like the idea of going modular. When the technology changes it can be
    far more practical to say... change an modular effects unit, than one
    that is built in to your synth. Look at the stereo market. You can buy
    complete stereo units, but real audiophiles always seem to buy separate
    units. This allows for easier upgrades *and* the purchase of units from
    manufacturers that are best in their area. For example one manufacturer
    may make a good turntable but a lousy amp. So you buy the turntable and
    get the amp from another manufacturer. Similar reasoning can apply to
    MIDI instruments. You don't have to look far in this notesfile to get
    comparisons of one manufacturer to another in whatever area. Going
    modular offers the greatest flexibility. 
    
Integrated
    
    I also like the "workstation" route (everything integrated into one
    package, including sequencer). Despite what I said in the last
    paragraph, I bought an Ensoniq EPS. Unlike you, I will be schlepping
    mine around to practices and performances. The fully integrated
    approach makes my life easier. (ie: easier to transport, easier to set
    up) I was in a similar price range to you when I bought. You will find
    several options open to you there. You may find that the only way that
    you can get all that you want for $2K is to go the workstation route
    and not the modular route. 
    
    Bruce, my suggestion to you is to try and make a list of "essentials",
    "wanna haves", and a "dream list". I'm glad that you liked my list,
    (you had most of it down already). You will need an amplifier (if you
    don't have one already), a controller (with options already discussed),
    a Sound Generating Unit (SGU). Start adding up your possible options.
    Which ones satisfy *all* of the "essentials" and *most* of the "wanna
    haves"? Think of your purchase in terms of these categories. Filling in
    any one category can easily take considerable time just to study your
    options. Try to fill no more than one or two categories at a time. BTW
    eventually you may also want to get into Recording Equipment, Effects 
    Units, Stands, Racks, Microphones, etc..., etc..., etc... it never
    ends. Better plan a budget for it now.  ;-} 
    
Used is cheaper
    
    Consider the "used" market, especially for some of the well known
    models and makes. This route will save you big bucks *and* give you the
    chance to find out what you really want. If you are good at it you may
    find that you can buy and sell used gear for little or no loss. We all
    get excited over the "latest and greatest" (L&G) but last years L&G is
    in this weeks Want ADvertiser. It is still great stuff even if it is no
    longer the very lastest. (Consider a used FB01 (SGU) approx $200, you
    should be able to find many used MIDI keyboards for $500). 
    
Learn by owning
    
    I learned far more about MIDI *after* I bought my first MIDI keyboard
    than I ever learned before. Reading through a notesfile or spending an
    hour in a music store is no substitute for having a piece of gear (even
    the wrong one) at home. If you have been looking for most of 1988 maybe
    it's time to just go out and buy a keyboard. The Mac can handle
    sequencing, so concentrate on getting something that sounds good to
    you, skip the sequencer units. Plan on owning whatever you buy for a
    year or so then sell it to get something that you *know* you really
    want, (by then you should know what that is.) Then you can also have
    the fun of buying it *NEW* if you really want to, 8-) 8-) 8-) (admiring
    looks from other MIDI freaks) 
    

Voices 
    
    As to "voices" that is a bit harder. Forget about 8,16,32, umpty-ump
    note polyphony for a moment. What you *want* is to hear every note of
    every instrument that you select, no matter how complicated the music.
    What you get is something far less. What they try to make you believe
    you get is something in between. The terms of interest are Polyphony
    (how many notes can sound at one time on a given instrument) and
    Multitimbrality (how many different sounds/instruments can be played at
    one time). (BTW you must be aware that another topic has taken up the
    issue of what "Multitimbral" means so I won't get into that here. (see
    note 1815 (I know the topic seems wrong but it in there))
    
How to test:
    
    The problem with discussing "voices" is that there are so many ways to
    produce them, and so much confusion over what Multitimbral really
    means. I think it will only muddy the waters further to get into that
    here, so allow me to suggest a simple test. When trying out a SGU,
    select a combination of sounds and listen for dropouts. For example,
    select piano and strings. Since the piano has a bright attack it is
    easy to hear it over the strings. Since the strings can be played long
    and drawn out it is easy to hear them dropout when you run out of
    voices. Play large complex chords, use lots of sustain. You will notice
    this effect on most of the synths available today. You will be able to
    determine empirically which SGUs offer *you* the most sound. 
                                                             

				good luck,
    				Mark
    
                             

    One item that's bitten me multiple times:
    
    	WHERE DO YOU PUT IT ONCE YOU'VE GOT IT?
    
    A synth (even an integrated unit like an ESQ) has to live somewhere and
    despite how nice _you_ think it looks, your spouse/roommate/ whatever
    may have other ideas. 
    
    My triple-tier rack is overfull now, and it has been stated to me IN
    NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that expansion is _not_ permitted.  Some people
    just don't understand beauty, I guess. :-)
    
    -----
    
    It's also nice to have a keyboard stand to hold the thing up.  Putting
    a synth on a regular table almost never gets it at the right height.
     
    	-Bill

    
    Why, you put everything in that cold, damp, dark basement.  Your
    synth goes on top of the old console organ that doesn't really work
    right anymore.  You buy a quartz heater and lots of sweaters.
    
    8^)  8^)  8^)  8^)

    What, you folks don't have a dedicated room for your toys? 
    
    One with a lock on the door?
    
    Edd

     >  What, you folks don't have a dedicated room for your toys?
    
     >  One with a lock on the door?
     
      
    The lock being there to keep the toys from crawling out when the
    house is unattended and eating all the food in the refrigerator?
    
    	:-)
    
    	-Bill

    
    Maybe GE can come up with a "space saver" synth. It'll mount under
    things like cabinets, tables, other synths ;-) :-) ;-)
    
    		Mark
    

    Stop buying keyboards, table-tops, etc. and start buying rack-mounts.
    
    The nature of my musical pursuits dictate that my stuff be
    roadable so I have a rugged rack that rates low on aesthetics.
    
    But if it was gonna stay in the same place, I'd just find or make
    a nice wood audio case to put the rack mount stuff in, put one of
    them there glass doors on it, and it would like at least as pretty
    as your typical yuppie stereo system case.
    
    	db

    All my stuff is in a corner of the living room on a 3-high stand.
    It's so tight I have to stand when I play.  How do I keep the kids
    away?  I don't.  Only recently does my boy leave my 2.8'' disks
    alone.  And, I every once in a while set it all up just so he can
    play with it.  Now that it's just another piece of furniture, he
    leaves it alone when I'm gone.  My wife (the music major) doesn't
    touch my equipment, but maybe someday she'll have interest.  By
    the way, what was the topic?
    
    Steve

    the topic is:
    recommend a midi keyboard, 76-88 keys, velocity, 10+poly.
    I am selling my piano, which was 88 key, velocity, 3 pedals,
    88-polyphonic.  Don't play any more.
    Tom

    You might also try doing a DIR/TITLE="Recommendation".  Good luck. 

-b