Conference napalm::commusic_v1

RE < Note 1742.0 by ARGUS::CORWIN "Social Caterpillar" >

	I'm not all that familiar with HP's but I'd venture to say that the RD's
are better all around controllers - as they appear to be made more for the 
professional musician.  The RD has control over MIDI on-off notes, velocity, 
MIDI channel (1-16), program (patch) change, and MIDI volume.  Anyone know if
the HP's carry the same array?

	The sounds should be identical.  And yes, you should be able to hook up
a synth to either one.  As far as the need for the full 88 keys, that's a matter
of preference.  I get along just fine with 76 (though sometimes I would like the
additional bass notes...).

	Dan

    My RD-300 is anything but "light".  I move it around all the time
    and cross my fingers every time because I can't get a case large
    enough to put it in, and if I did it probably wouldn't fit in my
    station wagon as the bare RD only just fits as it is.
    
    I'm not familiar with the HP series.
    
    I personally would think about reconsidering the 88-key issue.
    I find that I use those extra notes every time I play (like everytime I
    play an ascending arpeggio, I'd run off the end of the RD-200).
    
    Also, I don't know what the story is with the HP's but I believe
    that the RD-200 is not only less keys, but they keys are not
    weighted (weighted keys give you more of a piano feel/action,
    unweighted keys are more like an organ) whereas the RD-300 is
    both 88 keys and weighted action.
    
    The action of course is a matter of personal preference.  I bought
    the RD mainly for its action which is weighted but very light
    (the newer RD-300S's have a much heavier action).
    
    	db

    If I'm correct, the RDs don't have pitch bend or modulation wheels.
    I'd consider that if this was to be a controller.  I've played them
    and the Yamahas as well.  I prefer both the touch and sound of the
    Yams... but they also lack the pitch/mod wheels.  Sooner or later,
    you'll wish you had 'em.
    
    dc

RE < Note 1742.2 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Yo!" >

	I think you may be wrong, db, about the difference in weight on the keys
of an RD200.  I am under the impression that the 200 and the 300 are identical 
in everything except the number of keys.  My RD200 keys do not feel at all like
organ keys - they are as you described on your 300 - weighted, but lighter than
the Yam's or the newer RD250s and the RD300s.
    
	Dan

    Actually, the RD200 doesn't really have weighted keys *or* synth keys.
    It's a strange kind of intermediate step.  They are shaped like piano
    keys and have a definite resistance when pushed, but are not weighted
    in the truest sense of the word (like Kurzweil MIDIboard, Rhodes or
    Yamaha CP-30/KX88 type keyboards). 

    I don't find the touch offensive (like Casio CZ-1) - just different.

    I can't speak for the RD300.

-b

    
    I would be interested in prices on the units mentioned thus far.
    Has anyone checked out the Ensonic Piano ?? The Ensonic piano
    has more than just a classical piano sound, it also has 
    a honky-tonk piano, electric Rhodes, clavinet, and mallet/vibes
    as well. How heavy is an Ensonic Piano ? How much ? Does anyone 
    make a digitally sampled piano that is light and easy to move 
    around ? Price ?
    
    Mark
    

    I've played the Ensoniq piano.  Inferior to the Roland units, sound is
    grungy, keyboard is marshmallow-ey.

    My 2�.

-b

    I agree with Brad.  To my ears, the Ensoniq Piano is a blot on
    the Ensoniq line.  It's piano sound is far from convincing.
    And the keyboard feels very odd to my fingers.
    
    It may be the lightest and most portable however.
    
    The Roland has 3 piano sounds, harpsicord, clavinet, vibes, a killer
    Rhodes Electric piano sound (my "bread-and-butter" sound), and a
    Wurlizter Electric Piano sound.
    
    It also has builtin stereo chorus and vibrato with adjustable
    speed and depth.
    
    The RD-300S runs about $1800-$1900 I think.
    
    	db

    $1800?!?  Egad.  For that price you can get a new MKS-20 and a new
    KX76. 

-b

>    $1800?!?  Egad.  For that price you can get a new MKS-20 and a new
>    KX76. 
    
    Is that true?  New MKS-20's go for around $900-1000 these days.  Is
    the KX-76 about $850 new?
    
    New Commusic SNIGLET:
    
    	Ghost Keys: The keys that you wish your MIDI controller had when
    		you end up playing over the edge of the keyboard.
    
    Besides, I'd would take an RD-300 over an MKS-20 & KX-76 anyway
    or I'd constantly be hitting "ghost keys".  
    
    You can probably get the RD for less anyway.  I only paid about $1600
    for mine.
    
    	db

RE: .10

    I never miss the extra 12 keys, classical background notwithstanding.
    If I ever need to make use of the outer ranges, there's always the
    ability to transpose.  I usually run out of simultaneous notes before I
    ever run out of keyboard ... but that's personal preference and a
    rathole anyway.

    Back to price - I priced a NEW KX76 (w/o case) at $725 last spring, and
    an MKS20 at either $825 or $850.  Don't remember where right now, but
    it seems to me that it was either Jack's in Red Bank NJ or Sam Ash. 

    Oh yes - I know it's a bit pricey ($2k?), but the Kurzweil PX (?)
    module has a fantastic piano and 24 simultaneous notes.  Sigh. 

-b

Having wandered around several music stores since posting the base note, I've
made several discoveries.

First off, my question about comparing the RD200/250/300(S) with the HP700/800
seems to be comparing apples to oranges more than I thought.  The HP's
mentioned have 5 preset voices rather than 8, they don't have tremolo, and
there are a few more differences.  They also don't usually come with the
stand; that was a store feature.  In order to get the above technical features
you'd have to get the HP3000 (but that still doesn't normally include the
stand).

I also learned (through the Roland Users Group magazine) that the midi-channel
selection on the HP's is similar to the RD's, it just isn't displayed on the
keyboard (aesthetic reasons, most likely).  I don't know if the program change
features are also there but hidden; I would think so, but it doesn't concern me
now.

So, I feel a little better knowing that I wouldn't be paying more for the RD
and getting less (ie no speakers/stand).

As far as prices go, the walk-in-the-door price for the RD250 (new version of
the RD200 with stiffer keys) was $1750-1795; the price for the RD300S (new
version of RD300) was $1995 (this was in the Maynard/Marlboro area).

I also asked about keyboard controllers, MK200-300-1000, and he said
their other store had an MK200 left (61 keys, no thanks) and that the A-50
"Mother Keyboard Controller" was replacing them (at a very high price which
I promptly forgot; $1900 maybe?)  There was an article on this in the RUG
magazine, too.  Looks neat, but it's a lot more than I need now.  I had been
alternatively thinking of an MKS20 and a keyboard controller (haven't seen any
of them yet) since the price is down on the former, and maybe the latter.

Oh, yeah, I saw the Ensoniq Piano at Daddy's in Nashua; it was priced at
$1050.  I don't remember much about it, but it did seem smaller than the
Roland RD's.

Jill

    Jill, you'll pay thru the nose for the new Roland Controller.  It
    sports poly-aftertouch (along with a hefty price tag). 

    Do you intend to use the instrument for personal enjoyment or for
    income purposes (read: performance)?  Home or road? 

-b

re .14 (Brad):

Don't worry, I have no intention of buying the new Roland controller.  I
was merely asking about the "old" ones, ie the Roland equivalent to the
KX88 and KX76 that I keep reading about here but that I've never seen.
Since the MKS20 had come down in price so much since db made his RD300
purchase, I had been wondering if it would pay to go the separates route.

This is for home use only.  Basically, I want a piano with the digital
advantages, and possible future add-ons.

Jill

    So there are two basic aspects to buying an electronic piano.  One is
    feel/action of the keyboard; second is sound of the piano-mimicking
    circuitry. 

KEYBOARD:

    If the piano touch is important, the KX76 won't get it.  It's strictly
    a synth board.  The KX88 is more "piano-like", but still isn't quite
    there. 

    I personally don't know much about the new Roland controller, other
    than it has synth action (ala KX76) and polyphonic aftertouch (each key
    xmits its own a/t modulation).  Yamaha KX controllers xmit only channel
    aftertouch (modulation is kybd wide - not per key). 

    I own a 76 and like it, but I'm primarily a synth player now.  I can't
    really give you any good advice on piano-like keyboards. I've played
    lots of MIDI controllers, and really haven't liked any except the
    Kurzweil MIDIboard (which is around $2200 - urk!).  Wockin' Juan
    (JON::ROSS) played one for an extended demo period and thought that the
    thing was fatiguing to play.  I didn't get to play one long enough to
    tell - but the touch is as close to a Yahama or Steinway grand as I've
    ever felt. 

    I'm assuming that you're looking for a weighted action (read: piano
    touch), rather than synth. 

    Here are the ones I know about:

	*Yamaha KX76	- $750, 76 synth keys, mono a/t
	Yamaha KX88	- $1100?, 88 weighted keys, mono a/at
	New Roland	- $2100, 76 synth keys, poly a/t
	Roland MKB1000	- $1300?, 88 weighted keys, heavy as lead, mono a/t
	Roland MKB300	- $???, 76 synth keys ????, mono a/t
	Elka ???	- $???, 88 weighted keys (?), ??? a/t
	*Kurzweil MIDIbd - $2200, 88 weighted keys, heavy as lead, poly a/t
	Kawai ???	- ?????

	* my personal favorites of any I've played

CIRCUITRY:

    There are lots of different ways to generate piano-like sounds. Yamaha
    uses a mechanism called AWM (or something - dunno what it means), which
    isn't bad, but isn't exactly authenitic.  Their home keyboard line uses
    this, and in general they seem pretty nice. 

    Ensoniq uses multi-sampled waveforms in their piano - it's basically a
    play-only version of the Mirage sampler.  It's only 8 bit and the
    multi-samples and loops aren't real great, which makes for a gritty
    sound.  Okay for a rock club, but not for the purist. 

    Roland uses SAS (Structured Adaptive Synthesis?), which is an attempt
    (as far as I can tell) to resynthesize piano waveforms and harmonics on
    the fly.  The MKS and RD pianos use this.  The sound is not authentic
    (a little bright and harsh at times) but is very clean. Again, only the
    purist will gripe. 

    The Kurzweil PX modules use acutal samples.  I don't really understand
    their hardware setup, so I can't explain much about that.  What I can
    tell you is that the sounds are *great*, as Karl (SALSA::MOELLER) can
    attest.  One of the big bennies here is that the thing can sound up to
    24 simultaneous notes - the others can only do 16.  This is just about
    as close as you can get to a realy piano, IMO. 

    And finally, there's always the option of getting a nice sampler.
    Roland's samplers have very nice piano samples.  They even have one
    unit (a play-only version) that will play up to 31 simultaneous notes
    (T110, I think). 

    Note that all these units except the T110 are available in some form or
    another with an attached keyboard.  Most modular units (like MKS-20, PX
    modules, Yamaha modules) will require some type of external
    amplification. 

    So it basically comes down to what kind of touch you want, how
    discriminating your ear is, how much you want to spend, and whether you
    want a piece of electronic furniture or a (semi-)professional piece of
    gear.

-b 

PS - I would have listed prices, but I don't know 'em all off the top
     of my head.  Sorry.

Another country heard from...

If you are looking at separates, you should also check out the Yamaha TX1P,
a single space rack mount piano module.  Lists for $895 but you can get it
mail order for low $600 range.

My personal favorite module so far is the Kurzweil 1000PX, but it's more than
you want to spend.  The MKS-20 is nice, and I thought the Yamaha TX1P was
an excellent buy for the price.

     Happy hunting Jill,
     Derek

    Since a couple of weeks I own a Yamaha PF2000 and am really pleased
    with it.
    It has 88 weighted keys,sustain pedal,couple of presets and is fully
    MIDI'ed. All kind of extra funny sounds can be read from a 'cartridge'.
    I added a small box (EMT10) that contains 2 sampled piano's,harpsychord
    (really nice!),guitar,choir etc...

    Anyone else experience with this toy?
    
    Mari

Well, I finally made my decision and purchased the Roland RD250-S.  I'm
really happy with it, and it should keep me busy for a while.

Thanks to all who gave me input.

Jill

All,
	I got a letter from Roland (UK) Ltd today, saying that I have
won a Roland EP-3 Electronic Piano in a competition. I don't know
the first thing about Rolands, and have searched this conference but
not found any references to the EP-3. Is this something worth getting
excited about, or is it only a very basic model? How much is it worth
approximately? (my house insurances expires in a few weeks!). 

thanks for your help

	Craig.

	Congrats!

	The EP3, if I have the right model in mind, is the smallest of a new 
line of electronic pianos Roland has been selling.  It is not a full sized 
keyboard (probably 4 octaves), and it is not touch sensitive.  But it has, I
believe, the piano sound that comes from the U220, which a lot of people think 
is very good.  Chances are, you can play it remotely from a velocity sensitive 
keyboard and get more expression.  This keyboard has been selling around here 
for $400.

	Dan

>                  <<< Note 1742.21 by STOHUB::TRIGG::EATON >>>
>                                  -< Not bad >-

Thanks for the info - the piano has now arrived.

Certainly nothing to complain about, considering it was free!

It has five octaves, and five voices. Piano, Organ, Strings, and
two which I can't remember. It's also got a foot pedal to sustain
the notes. The voices can be combined too. The piano sound is quite
good, but there's no velocity sensitivity.

It's come in quite useful - I joined the London Gaelic Choir a few
months ago and now I can use the piano to practice the tunes at
home!

	Craig.

    The April issue of Keyboard has some interesting comparisons on digital
    pianos.  The HP3700 seems to be the best all around to me, except for
    the price of course.
    
    Mike

Hello... for those who are interested in ROLAND HP2700 and HP3700 ...
I wrote two (non technical) replies to note 2565 (re .38 and .39)
for technicalities... contact your local dealer!

If you've got something else.... READ 'EM 'N WEEP!

Dirk

    I haven't been able to find an HP2700 or HP3700 yet, but one local
    store had a KR3000 (sp?) for $6K.  I'm mainly a guitar player, but I
    noodled around on it for awhile and was REALLY impressed with the
    capabilities.  Anyone familiar with this unit?
    
    Mike

    I finally found an HP3700 last night (as well as the 2700 and 1700). 
    They had a Roland SoundCanvas hooked up to it.  Expensive gear, but
    still very impressive.
    
    Mike

re .26

did you also find the piano's own (few) sounds MUCH better than the
SoundCanvas ones?

Dirk

    I'm a guitar player so take this fwiw, but the piano seemed to be the
    closest thing to a real piano I've ever felt/seen/heard!  It had great
    sounds, but the Sound Canvas (I take it that this is a new product) was
    a great complement to it.  I'd rather look at it as an enhancement tool
    rather than a replacement.
    
    BTW - the salesperson said Roland doesn't do samples, they do waveform
    matching to save on memory.  Is this true?
    
    Mike