Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Sounds like an Octapad broken down into its components.
    
    There's apparently a new Octapad thingie, and a new drum machine
    (the R-8).  Details are sketchy but it sounds like Roland's version
    of the HR-16, for twice the price.
    
    len.
    

    re-.0   How much is this baby?
    

    I *think* we're talking over $1K for the set-up our drummer is using,
    but that includes PM-16, 4 PD-3's, cables, stands, misc., etc. Add
    another $400 for a drum machine...
    
    Not something to buy on a whim....
    
    Edd

    I think I'll stick to my DD-5 connected to my RX7 through some custom
    software.(definitely not for live use though). It gives me all the
    facilities I need for home use for about $100, not including AppleII
    and rx7 of course!
    

    You know, for these kinds of prices, there might be merit in taping
    cardboard pads on my S-10's velocity-sensitive keys and use it
    as a controller for my 505.  I could even use split points to get the 
    sampler to provide 3 more voices (the 1st being silent).  So, I could 
    divide my keyboard up into 19 pads and bang away with some (rather 
    heavy) drumsticks.  I could sacrifice one of the pads so that one
    of the S-10 voices could be triggered by a pad attached to a mic that
    feeds the mic input (for drum rolls or whatever).  ;^)
    
    Steve

    Steve brings up a point that I've always wondered about ... is it that
    expensive a proposition to manufacture these things?  It seems that
    most hit-with-a-stick triggers are expensive as all get out. 

    Howcum?

-b

    I would imagine manufacturing expense plays only a small part in
    determining retail...
    
    How much Joe Drummer (or maybe a real musician ;^)) is willing to
    part with is probably a bigger factor...
    
    I was real impressed with the functionality of the PM-16. 
    
    Edd

	the pd31's look good and basically respond well, but the
	rims are a little hard (hard pvc or something - like beating
	a rock with your stick). i like the idea but found myself
	hitting 2 zones alot when shooting for the middle pad - maybe
	i was sitting to low at the store last year where i demo'd it.
	i hit the rim  too much. (i do that with my acoustics more
	from a habit of rim-shots, but my rims don't give me a timbale
	sound in the middle of a snare hit [if that's the voice set up
	for example]!)

	the price is reasonable - $130 or so (list? don't remember)
	probably cheaper somewhere. (maybe that was the sam ash price)
	for getting 4 pads on one surface - sort of.

	the prices of pads is mostly for the creativity and design.
	Todd's pad was basically cheap, but he  didn't have the nice
	molding and response that current production models have.
	my pad-in-a-coffee-can model gave me a mushy feel (since i was
	using the reseal lid of the can for the head!) but basically worked!

	the electronics are nothing. the design, the molding, the mounting,
	etc - plus a little profit - that's what goes into 'em.
	

	

    Our drummer solved one of the problems Butch mentioned by assigning
    the closest edge of his snare pad to be..... the snare! (In addition
    to the expected snare in the middle.)
    
    He also assigned a couple different toms to various places on one
    of the tom pads; it cuts down on travel time between toms.
    
    BTW - I recently heard a tape of a gig we did. Damned if I can
    tell he's not playing an acoustic kit. The HR-16 shined!
    
    Edd

< Note 1696.9 by WEFXEM::COTE "Name changed to protect innocence" >
>The HR-16 shined!
           ^^^^^^  
                       s/b    SHONE.

    Hey, you weren't even there...
    
    Edd

    re .10 - as in "I shone my shoes this morning"?
    
    Or "Have I shone you a picture of my kitty?"
    
    Or "Shone 'uff, I'se goin' to the Wurlygig!"
    
    len.
    

    I am using a PM-16 and an HR-16 as my sound source.  I am using 
    Roland pads as the triggers, which use 9 input channels of the PM-16
    
    I am currently building up an assortment of drum kits in the PM-16.
    What I want to know is how I can get the drum pattern number on the
    HR-16 to change when I change patches on the PM-16.  Obviously, I can
    manually select a new pattern on the HR-16, but I want to know if there
    is a parameter on the PM-16 that I can set to select the appropriate
    pattern on the HR-16 as I change patches on the PM-16.  
    
    I am relatively new to the wonderful world of midi, and I am wondering
    if this is possible, but perhaps I don't have the right vocabulary to
    realize it.
    
    I want to be able to select different patterns from the HR-16 so that 
    I have access to a larger number of sounds.
    
    I imagine that there are others using this same combination of
    equipment, so maybe you can offer a suggestion.
    
    	Thanks,
    	Willy

    Well, there's two modes on a PM-16, I'm not sure what they are called
    anymore, but one affects the whole kit and the other individual pads.  
    
    In this global mode, step through the parameters until you find
    something that says either "MIDI" or "Program Change."
    
    From what I remember, I think the PM-16 always sends program changes
    and you just select the MIDI channel.  So look for that, set it to 1
    and then set the MIDI receive on the HR-16 to 1.  It's possible that
    the PM-16 also has a global "send program changes or not" parameter;
    you would want this on.
    
    Again, not knowing (didn't actually own one), it's possible that each
    "kit" setup on the PM-16 can send a specific program change number. 
    This is comparable to the drumKAT, which actually sends three
    programmable program changes, across different MIDI channels, when you
    switch setups.
    
    Anyway, the first thing to do is make sure they're both on the same
    send (PM-16) and receive (HR-16) channel (1 - doesn't really matter,
    but it's your first gear...).
    
    Then, check to see that something that looks like "Program change" is
    enabled on both machines.  The PM-16 so it will send it when you change
    the kit; the HR-16 so it will listen.
    
    Then, see if the PM-16 has any special goodies, like specifying a
    different program change (lookup table) number than the kit you
    selected.  Layman's terms:  you push "3" on the PM-16, and instead of
    sending program change to "3" (simple) you can send "2" or "10" or "55" 
    (special goodie).  
    
    Hope that helps.
    
    -=mikie=-

    Also check the status of the HR16 "Manual Program Change" parameter in
    the MIDI menu. 
    
    If you can save a new kit in each pattern then it's in the right mode.
    Remember to save VOICE, TUNE and MIX arguments for EACH kit/pattern.
    
    Edd

I do it with my PM-16, it's just not as "nice" as I would like...  You have to
do your own "table mapping."

You have to dial in the "Send Program Change" parameter.   This will send a
MIDI program change to the HR16.  Program change is sent on a "per program
basis"  (i.e.  each BANK/PROGRAM setting maps to a single, static pattern #;
when that program is selected, the associated pattern number is sent to the
HR-16) The real trick is coordinating the setup of the Bank/program on the
PM-16 with the Pattern# on the HR-16.  Once you've done that, it's duck soup.   

Here's a core dump:
                                                                    
The PM-16 has 8 banks of 8 programs each, for a total of 64 'kits'.    Each
'kit' is a mapping of any of the 16 pad inputs to a MIDI note # (ignoring
the "layer" function, for now).    

The HR-16 uses 'patterns' that have a (user-defined) mapping of the sounds
to the 16 different pads.  There are a maximum of 100 patterns (0 thru 99)
that can be stored on the HR-16 (Less, if you've actually stored a lot of
events in any of the patterns). Mapping the 2, you see the limitations: 
You can only use the PM-16 to command a MAXIMUM of 64 'kits' (patterns) on
the HR-16.

The matrix below is a map of how the
BANK/PROGRAM settings on the PM-16 map into a 'pattern number' on the
HR-16.  (The number contained in the cell is the HR-16 Pattern #.)


		 	      P M - 16	P R O G R A M

	    #   1  |    2  |   3   |    4  |    5  |    6  |    7  |    8  
	===================================================================
B 	1   #  00  |  01   |  02   |  03   |  04   |  05   |  06   |  07   
 	----#------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------
A	2   #  08  |  09   |  10   |  11   |  12   |  13   |  14   |  15   
 	----#------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------
N	3   #  16  |  17   |  18   |  19   |  20   |  21   |  22   |  23   
	----#------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------
K	4   #  24  |  25   |  26   |  27   |  28   |  29   |  30   |  31   
	----#------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------
	5   #  32  |  33   |  34   |  35   |  36   |  37   |  38   |  39   
	----#------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------
	6   #  40  |  41   |  42   |  43   |  44   |  45   |  46   |  47   
	----#------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------
	7   #  48  |  49   |  50   |  51   |  52   |  53   |  54   |  55   
	----#------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------+-------
	8   #  56  |  57   |  58   |  59   |  60   |  61   |  62   |  63   


If you look at the matrix above, you end up with a mapping that looks like
this:

	  PM-16         HR-16
	Bank/Program    Pattern
	------------    --------
	    11  maps to-> 00	 
	    12   "    "   01
	    13   "    "   02
	    ...  "    "	  ...
	    86   "    "   61
	    87   "    "   62
	    88   "    "   63
        -----------------------------


Once you've gotten that down, you're home-free.  All you have to do is: 

1. Set up the right voice/pad assignments on the HR-16 & make a note of the
   pattern number

2. Set up the pad/note# assignments on the PM-16 for the corresponding
   'pattern' on the HR-16 and save it into the matching "BANK/PROGRAM" combo
   on the PM-16.

This really takes a lot of work if you're trying to optimize the "kit
selection" on the PM-16.   I.e. Keep all the "heavy metal" kits on Bank 1,
all the "Jazz" kits on BANK 2, all the "ethnic" kits on bank 8, etc...  

It may sound a little compulsive, but it really does help to do a lot of
up-front planning, religiously write down your settings (usu. on some sort
of xerox-ed form) and try to organize the kits in a some sort of logical
order that you can remember when you're improvsing /jamming.    The time
spent planning makes it much easier to be creative later when you want to
concentrate on _playing_, not "finding the kit". ("Where the hell *did* I
put that Agogo ?...")

Hope this helps.

./doug

P.S.

I would encourage you to run to your local elitist music hardware shop and
pick up some clothespin/thumbtack (NC and NO) switches.   These are handy as
control pedals to 
	1) start/stop the HR-16  ("Jane!  Stop this crazy thinnnnng!!!")
	2) quickly step UP/DOWN through the programs on the PM-16.

/doug

Actually, I was ultra-elitist and scavenged some old dead cry baby wah pedals &
switches to do this... but my hat is off to the noter that described the
clothespin solution; I was truly humbled.