Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Let's see here ...

    38 notes   5 bytes   1 second     8 bits   1520 bits
    -------- X ------- X ---------- X ------ = --------- or < 5% bandwidth
    1 second   1 note    31250 bits   1 byte   1 second

    5 bytes per note is a bit high, assuming 1 note on, 1 channel #, 1
    velocity, 1 note-off, 1 off-velocity. 

    It certainly isn't due to MIDI bandwidth.  I've never had a problem
    like this, and have put out as many as 40/sec from one source. 

-b

>    Do you get into trouble with late notes and scrambled chords

While I haven't had any average note rates as high as 38/second, I have been
    flooding the cable with lot's of pan/volume messages without any noticable
    effects on timing. I suspect that these pan/volume messages introduce more
    traffic than the 38 notes on-off/second that you mentioned since these are
    continuous controllers and when I move my slider, it inserts lots of these
    messages in short time spans, and I've done this on perhaps four channels at
    the same time. 

/Mitch

Oh, I forgot to mention that my traffic source is a Mac SE.

/Mitch

    
    I get a similar effect if I run out of voices on the Xpander; the
    particulars depend on the notes and how fast they come.
    
    If it's _very_ fast (>3 notes all step-entered to start at the exact
    same clock pulse, tempo > 160 BPM, no free voices) then the Xpander
    will occasionally 'lose' one or two.  Annoying. 
    
    If it's slower but still the note-off and a note-on to the same
    note, and still fast paced and no free voices, then the attack portion
    of the sound will get lost and the note just sustains rather than
    playing a new attack.
    
    The cure for the Xpander is simple; don't run out of voices!
    
    	-Bill 
    

    Well, I could make the errors go away by either slowing the tempo,
    or silencing a line.  Perhaps I will try sending out line out the
    sound port.  If the errors persist, it's the amiga.  If they don't,
    it's the box.
    Tom

    
    re: .-1
    
      Had a similar result from flooding the MIDI line into my ST with
    what was apparently 60 cycle hum translated into MIDI ON events.
    That effectively hung my machine, since MIDI IN apparently has a
    higher interrupt level than Metronome OUT...
    
      Boy did the click go fast when I stopped the data stream in...
    
    /pjh

Firstly, I don't mean to sound negative about this.  But....
    
    Three years ago I bought an Amiga PC for basic home use and to learn
    about MIDI.  I just wanted a computer that would do simple word
    processing and play nifty games.  And I wanted it to do MIDI to
    my two Casio synths.  I went out and got the top of the line 
    (at the time) MIDI program (Soundscape pro by Memetics).  I went
    to the Amiga expo in California and met the author of Amiga Wolrd
    and the wirter of Soundscape pro.  I figured I was set for the time
    of my life with all my new toys. Alasm  Nothing that was promised was
    delivered by the Amiga.  The darn thing crashed all the time, it
    was slow, and had no documents. The word processing was rediculas,
    and the MIDI messages paused all the time when it didn't crash.
    
    I wrote to Comidore and talked
    to the dealers in town all the time.  It seemed to me that all the
    dealers wanted was money, really really really bad support for the
    product was very appearent.  Finally after I had spent hundreds
    of hours trying to get some kind of help I told the guys at the
    local dealers store that I was going to sell my Amiga and buy a
    Mac (I was joking) and they threatend to throw me out of the store.
    
    Needless to say, two days later I sold my Amiga and took the proceeds
    to Apple and bought a Mac SE.  
    
    I even tried to get support from the local users group, but I am
    sure we all have our own stories on those.  Power hungry closed
    minded Dogma attitude Alaskan Amiga users were nothing I wanted
    to deal with...
    
    Now I am happy and content.    Mac is the only way to go...  
    
                                                              

    Such a negative experience!  I have wordperfect on the amiga & it
    works great, better than any vax editor.
    I have seen crashes on public domain crap, but I don't depend on
    that stuff.
    I have used the amiga to make video graphics for cable tv,
    edit performance scripts, play my music correctly and in hi-fi
    (compared to my live recordings) for the first time (try getting
    the attention of 4 flutists, one who is about to get married,
    one who is a conceited hotshot, one who is a freshman without
    experience, and one who was good, to play your work well in
    15 weeks of rehearsals. ) sign on the vax from home.
    The work I am trying to play has about 20000 notes, lasts 20 minutes,
    uses 150000 bytes (or maybe more) of storage, and has never been
    played correctly because it's a piano duet and no one will
    play it with me, and playing it solo was murder.  
    I feel lucky to have it played this well.  It often has 20 simultaneous
    notes, and the mks can only play 16, but the notes may come too
    fast.  I played the piece with one line of 5 note chords going
    out the audio port (truncated to 4 notes), and the regularity was
    better but it did miss one beat once.  DMCS is only specd to handle
    16 voices, so I'm exceeding both the dmcs and the mks20 voice
    limits.
    My music is just too hard to play for any medium.
    
    I have a feeling that if we compared our mac and amiga account
    books showing all costs, I'd come out about half or less.
    Tom

    >My music is just too hard to play for any medium...
    
    Try syncing two sequencers together, each feeding a seperate
    MKS-20....
    
    Your music isn't too hard, you just haven't figured out how to
    run a MIDI network yet. But I, for one, am impressed with your
    recent turnaround regarding MIDI and sequencers...
    
    Edd

    Yeah, right, I've designed fiber optic links, 422/232 convertors,
    debugged prototype vax-pdp parallel links, but havn't learned little
    old midi "networks."  Would you like to buy me the next mks20 and
    the two sequencers, gombo?  I'm not going to sell the stock when
    it's bottoming out.  Should I sell my nieces?  This is the only
    piano piece this demanding.  Should I buy 1200$ is gear for one
    piece?  Why didn't you suggest overdubbing?  I could just
    record two lines and then add the other two lines.  I've always
    been good at manually syncing tape decks by hook or by crook.
    DMCS allows silencing lines, to do this.
    Tom  

Re .-1
    
    Hey Edd -- just how offensive is the term 'Gombo'? Are you just
    friends having a joke, is it a term of endearment in the States,
    or are you hopping mad?
    
    Richard.
    

    ...depends on the context and intent.
    
    In this case, I assume I've been slapped by Tom and rise to
    him by challenging him to duel.
    
    Pick the spot, Knave Janzen. I'll pick the weapons...
    
    Edd

    You people equate a failure to budget for your retirement with
    technical expertise.
    Tom

                           
    re-1
    
    
    But I retired last year !
                             
    Look at the fun I'me having.
    
    			Paul.

    Prof Gumby is someone I've always empathised with. 
    
    Not Rambo.
    
    Richard.

and you equate MIDI technical knowledge with making good music!
Tom

    ...and you, Jester Janzen, equate difficulty of execution with 
    sophistication of thought.
    
    Throw out your Amiga and MKS-20. MIDI is a toy, joy-boy. Go back
    to your plastic flutes, flakey cables and other trappings of
    your trade.
    
    Gumbo

    OK, Tom's been silent for almost an hour. He obviously knows he's
    whipped. I win.
    
    Come back, Tommy. All is forgiven...
    
    XXX
    
    Edd

    ergo, you equate failing to budget for your retirement with making
    good music!
    
    Tom

    Tom, I tried this with a piece I hacked together.  Probably not as
    complex as something you'd do (I'm not being cute, I mean it), but
    nevertheless, it worked without a hitch.  We're talking between 15-25
    notes/sec. 

    I was using MTP on an ST driving 2 ESQ-Ms and a TX7.  ESQ(1) overflowed
    to ESQ(2) overflowed to TX7.  Tones didn't match, but I had no late
    note (or other timing) problems. 

    Maybe you have a UART problem.  What kinda MIDI interface are you using
    with the Amiga? 

-b

    PS - for whoever's punch it is - tell him that if he was any dumber his
    head would suck in. 

    I have 1 synth, so can't do overflow.
    I am borrowing len's simple level interface from mimetics.
    hm.
    Tom

    Your synth is an MKS-20?  Can it do overflow?  If so, maybe you can
    borrow someone else's just for testing?  If not, find someone who has
    enough voices to accomodate your music and test your Amiga with that
    setup.

    It's entirely possible that the MKS could go batzo when stuffed with
    too many notes simultaneously (but I'll stick with the pokey UART hunch
    for now). 

    Good luck.

-b

    MKS-20 does not do overflow.  That's one of the new features of
    the MKS-20 follow up, the P-330 (I think that's what it's called).
    
    	db

    My, my..TOm's purchase (I assume) of an MKS-20 was certainly low-key..
    can this be the first public admission ?  I notice you typed it
    in lower case.. hoping we wouldn't notice ?  If you bought it new,
    the 1000PX Kurzweil has 24voice polyphony, and a better sound,
    for about $2k total.

    First an Amiga, now a digital rackmount piano unit.. whatcha using
    as a MIDI keyboard ?  Or are you step-entering ?  What'll happen
    to those chops... *I* use a sequencer, but I *never* enter in step
    time ('cause I don't know how !!).. and I never ever ever quantize,
    and never have since I was 9 years old.  I bet if Conlon Nancarrow
    was 50 years younger, and/or lived in the U.S., he'd be using a
    MIDI sequencer and 'piano' SGU(s), along with a score-printing program. 
    
    Also, regarding the 'use two sequencers in sync' reply, a C64/128 
    with 'Dr T' software is quite affordable. Of course if it's just for 
    one piece then you use tape.. 
        
    "I just don't know how you guys afford all that MIDI junk."
    
    One unit at a time, is the correct answer.

    and used, for half price, or a third the price of the junk you bought.
    I enter directly in musical notation.
    Tom

    Reply to ANT::JANZEN in reguards to note 1627.8
    
    You mentioned that you have spent about half the money for your
    computer than I have for my Mac SE??  Is this true??  Does your
    Comidore have 1Meg of RAM, 40Megs of storage and can do anything
    you want without refering to manuals all the time?  I have never
    looked at my Mac manual (Which I could learn a hell of a lot by
    doing) and can do anything I have wanted to so far (Including learn
    4th dimension in a week).  All of this only cost me 2500$ + the
    software cost.  Look into a hard drive and an upgrade for your Amiga
    if you have the 1000 or the 2000 and we'll see who got more for
    the buck...  I figure I came out ahead by selling the thing before
    it became extinct.  No insults intended here, just defending my
    point and past decisions.
    
    --Nick

>< Note 1627.27 by ANT::JANZEN "Tom 296-5421 LMO2/O23" >
>    and used, for half price, or a third the price of the junk you bought.

    Well, my new 1000PX sits right next to my USED Fostex 8track, under
    my USED TEAC 4track, over my USED Nakamichi cassette dex, near my
    USED Marantz stereo preamp/amp, under my USED TEAC graphic EQ, on
    the same table as my USED Macintiosh 512K.. and on and on..
    
    I think that the 1000PX is worth 3x a used MKS-20.. and I used to
    have an MKS-20, as you know.  there's all these Kurzweil instrument
    samples.. 128 separate full-keyboard sounds.  It all depends on
    what you need.  I sold the MKS-20 and a motorcycle to buy the 1000PX,
    $15 (not a misprint) out of pocket.
    
>I enter directly in musical notation.

    Oh, so no MIDI keyboard.  Step-time is nothing to be ashamed of.

    karl

>    < Note 1627.29 by SALSA::MOELLER "DECblocks Product Support" >
>    Oh, so no MIDI keyboard.  Step-time is nothing to be ashamed of.>>
>
>    karl

    Neither is musical literacy, and having ca. 120 scores of about
    5 hours of music for orchestra, chamber groups, piano, computer,
    vocals, and electronics from 16 years of LITERATE composing, as I have,
    as opposed to improvising into a computer/recorder and editing out
    the boring parts and mistakes, as you do.
      Tom

    I think it's a trifle unfair of Karl M to pick on Tom just
    because he can't play a keyboard. Just mentioning the word 'ashamed'
    is clearly upsetting. He writes scores, and enters
    them in step-time; keyboard skills might come later -- just sorta
    'click', you know, Karl. 
    
    But how long does it take to enter 'about 5 hours of music for 
    orchestra' in step-time? 
                          
    Richard.
    
    
    !*)

    Could we possibly avoid this "I'm a better composer than you" crap?
    It has nothing to do with what equipment you have or how you do
    it.  The music that results is what counts.  Tom is well known for
    his denial of the relevance if any music but his own.  Karl shouldn't
    let himself be dragged into this.  Can we get back to the subject
    at hand, whatever it was?
    
    len.
    

    I forgot to this weekend, but I will try enlarging the serial
    buffer from 512 byte to whatever.  the only problem is having to
    play so much music to be certain of having fixed it (about 12 minutes).
    
    I am a pianist too, marvin; I played in public since 1981, but quit
    in January.
    Tom

    Oh, incidentally, about step time.   The rubato in my works is
    notated into the note durations, so exact tempo sounds very fluid
    in some of my works.  I notated very exact rhythms because I wanted
    them played that way, so just entering the musical notation from
    the score is the best way to do it.  Also, non-fluid interfering
    rhythms must also be exact in order to make their effect, true
    of other of my works.  
    I do not expect to have a keyboard controller, unless I can sell
    the piano I've used for 22 years.  I just can't afford it.
    Tom

    < Note 1627.32 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >
>Tom is well known for
>    his denial of the relevance if any music but his own.      
>    len.
That's not quite true len.  I merely deny the relevance of any music
    from the COMMUSIC conference.
    Tom

Fair enough on the piano playing front, Tom. Haven't heard the early
    COMMUSIC tapes, before you gave up. 
    
    BTW -- calling me Marvin is like me calling you Ant!
    
    Richard.

< Note 1627.36 by MARVIN::MACHIN >
>Fair enough on the piano playing front, Tom. Haven't heard the early
>COMMUSIC tapes, before you gave up. 

    Sorry, Richard, Tom wasn't on the early Commusic tapes.  He felt
    his music would clash esthetically with all our 'Bruce Springsteen
    covers'.
    
>Note 1627.30 by ANT::JANZEN "Tom 296-5421 LMO2/O23"

>>    < Note 1627.29 by SALSA::MOELLER "DECblocks Product Support" >
>>    Oh, so no MIDI keyboard.  Step-time is nothing to be ashamed of.>>

>    Neither is musical literacy, and having ca. 120 scores of about
>    5 hours of music for orchestra, chamber groups, piano, computer,
>    vocals, and electronics from 16 years of LITERATE composing, as I have,
    
    Gosh.  What an intimidating background.  What a shame it hasn't
    led to listenable, enjoyable music.  If I had YOUR background, 
    'Gumbo', I'd be doing better than rigid Classics-By-Computer and 
    dull boogie-woogie.  I'm doing far better than that anyhow.  

    I anticipate the rejoinder that it isn't fair to judge your music
    by these throwaways.  Now that you've once again 'given up music',
    you're now somehow free to let us hear your REAL music... did I get 
    that right ?
    
>    ..as opposed to improvising into a computer/recorder and editing out
>    the boring parts and mistakes, as you do.
    
    Another typical Catch-22.. if I step-timed, sorry, 'mouse-driven entry'
    my music, as you do, you'd slag me off for not having/using keyboard
    technique.  
    
    karl    

    Your indulgence, your graces, whilst I further chastise this varlet.. 
    
>Note 1627.30 by ANT::JANZEN "Tom 296-5421 LMO2/O23"

>    ..Neither is musical literacy, and having ca. 120 scores of about
>    5 hours of music for orchestra, chamber groups, piano, computer,
>    vocals, and electronics from 16 years of LITERATE composing, as I have,

    When I look at my own musical output over the last few years, I
    see that I have easily 100 works, 6-10 hours of music, covering many 
    styles and orchestrations.  The difference is that mine is all ON TAPE,
    listenable, well-recorded studio and live performances, rather than 
    a bunch of literate, dusty scores sitting in a closet.

>Note 1627.32 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS
>                             -< Not Again?!? >-
>Karl shouldn't let himself be dragged into this.  

    'Dragged into' ?  I live for this..
        
>Could we possibly avoid this "I'm a better composer than you" crap?

    Apparently not.  A bit late now for 'next unseen', eh ?

    karl        

    Tom is a better composer than me technically....it's just that there's
    not likly to be a market for his stuff...and there might be for
    mine.
    
    dbII
     

    It's a good job this exchange is funny, else two computer engineers
    arguing about who is the greates composer might seem a bit 
    -- um -- laughable!
    
    Richard.

    Makes me feel downright proud to hobnob with such mature intellects.
    
    len.
    

I wonder if Leonard Bernstein and Aaron Copeland every got into arguments about
who was the better engineer. 

    On a television show about Aaron Copland (speelling),
    Leonard Bernstein and Aaron were on a couch.  Leonard pointed
    out that he was Aaron's assistant or secretary during the
    writing of Appalachian Spring, and that he, Lenny, had written
    a few bars of the original score, and then Aaron broke in
    arguing, "you're saying that YOU wrote part of MY music?????"
    and so they started arguing, but it was edited so we never
    got to the "who's parts of Appalachian are better" argument.
    Tom

    Reminds me of Mel Brooks' "The Producers"..
    
    "And ze Fuhrer could dance ze pants off Churchill".
                                           
    Hey Tom -- what would get you more pi*sed off:
    
    1) Karl M. claims to have written one of your best pieces while
       in the womb, only to discard it shortly after birth;
      
    
    2) Andre Previn joins digital and has the techy idea that's worth
       vice-presidency moments before you do.
    
       
    Richard. 8*)

    I hate to break up the party, kiddies, but ...

    Did you ever fix your note rate problem, Tom?

-b

    I have not tried to fix the problem yet.
    I am working on other pieces that do ot
    producethis symptom.  If I try this piece again I will
    enlarge the serial buffer in the sysgen program, after looking to
    see if there is a special MIDI device or if it uses the regular
    serial.device.  
    I am entering all the music I've written.  I'm up to mid-1975.
    I was disappointed that from 1971 to 1975 I wrote only about
    40 minutes worth (improvised 30 minutes that was recorded,
    and improvised untold unrecorded hours) + a couple scores I
    couldn't find.  But in late 1975 I wrote another 30 minutes.
    The point is that no other of these variegated
    pieces have any rate problems, even when the synthesizer and the
    amiga are both playing (the amiga can synthesize directly).
    Tom

    I probably can't change the buffer size since there is no Preferences
    (sysgen) on the DMCS disk, so the heck with it.  It happened
    on another piece hitting 16 notes at a time, a sort of arpegiation.
    Tom