Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    I don't know much about Creator, except the reviews that I have
    read in EM and MT, which were both quite favorable.  I can, however
    provide you with some other reasons for buying an ST.
    
    STs are excellent for archiving patches.  You can use my program
    (Dir/Title="bulkdump") for free.  It isn't as useful as a dedicated
    librarian for a synth, but for any synth for which you have more
    than a single bank of patches, it makes a world of difference. 
    
    For example, ST users with Yamaha 6-op synths ([DT]X7{IIF{D}}, TX802)
    in this file enjoy the use of 3000 or so different patches.  This
    type of flexibility opens many doors.
    
    I imagine that the D-50 will also develop a comparably sized library
    over time.  As it stands, if you have an Atari ST, you will not
    have to buy a RAM or ROM cart for each new bank of patches that you get.
    
    There are number of good sequencer, sample and voice editing packages
    for the ST, but I don't have one, so I won't comment. 
    
    If you are going to use the system for non-music applications, the ST
    has the best terminal program I have seen for any micro, if you are a
    DEC employee.  See MAY14::ATARIST (dir/title="whack") for further
    details.
    
    In the con department, you really should buy and ST for what it
    can do NOW.  You should not expect any hot new software for the
    ST to appear, since most developers have been scared away from the
    machine by Atari's attitude.  Music software is an exception, but
    I would still not gamble that somebody is going to port X, Y or
    Z to the machine.
    
    Personally, I feel that the patch archival uses alone are worth the
    price.
    
    Steph
    

    
    
    As an Atari and Bulkdump user I can add a little value here (note
    the terminology). I saw a demo of C-LAB Notator yesterday (this
    is the next setp on from "C-LAB Creator" these are bot produced
    by a German Company who are the main competition to Steinberg. As
    a Hardware sequencer user I do not always understand the use of
    screens and keyboards for writing or playing music but I have to
    say that it looked impressive. The big step forward is that once
    you have built your piece using stave or realtime entry you can
    just press the button and out comes the score.
    
    As to D50 editing and dumping. I am already, succesfully using Bulkdump
    with the D50 so I have some patches which are tradable and could
    save you money in the Aftermarket area.
    
    
    					Paul.

	RE: -.1

	Do you know the name of the company? the address? anything more that
I could use as a touchpoint?  I'd appreciate it!

--mike "No money" bell

    Uhm - you're now thinking about an ATARI?  AND a sequencing package?

    You'd better reconsider the D-10/110.  Multi-timbrality and dynamic
    voice allocation are awful hard to do without.  

    As long as you're checking out sequencers, you may as well do a
    DIR/TITLE="MASTER" and read the entries for MasterTracks Pro. 

-b

    
    
    Re-2
    
    The company is called C-Lab and tend to distribute through dealers
    you will get the  U.S.A. distributer's name out of KEYBOARD or 
    similar.
    
    				Paul.

  Yesterday I got a big envelope in the mail from Digidesign (I had circled
the little number for them way back in March or so in STart mag -- everybody
had sent me stuff in April and May except these guys.)  Anyway, there was a
sheet on *Creator* and *Notator* from C-Lab (the German developers).  Digidesign
is the US distributor.  There was a full poster size double sided flyer on
ST C-Lab offerings which is from C-Lab itself and an 8� X 11 double sided
blurb from Digidesign about *Creator*.

Addresses:  Digidesign
	    1360 Willow Road
	    Menlo Park  CA  94025
	    (415) 327-8811

	    C-Lab Software
	    Postfach 700 303
       D - 2000 Hamburg 70
            F. R. Germany

* DISCLAIMER *  I am not connected, nor is DEC (as far as I know), 
with these companies.

The following is taken from the *Creator* blurb by Didgdesign without 
permission:

Creator(tm) brings a new standard of excellence to Atari sequencing.  Never
before has a program introduced so many innovative features with such 
reliablility.  Wheteher you are purchasing your first sequencer or preparing for
your next album, Creator will allow you to work faster than you ever thought 
possible.

For example, Creator is the first Atari sequencing program to offer
multitasking capabilities.  That means -- among other things -- that Creator
will allow you to save your sequence to disk *as it's playing*.  You no longer
have to waste time waiting for the computer to perform tasks not directly
related to your music.

Creator is also the first Atari sequencing program to include macro 
capabilities.  This feature will allow you to record tempo changes or mutes 
simply by using the mouse as your sequence is playing.  Creator will save 
your mouse moves to their own track, so you can edit them later just like note
or controller data.

The program even provides graphic scrolling  of events during playback, so you
can always see which note you're hearing.  No longer do you have to search
through your event list every time to hear a bad note.

Other features of Creator include:

* Real-time quantization on playback without altering data

* Ability to store any System Exclusive message on a per track basis.

* Full text editing of System Exclusive data (great for writing "handshakes"
to speak with individual synthesizers, drum machines, etc.)

* Capable of recording over 1,000 tracks.

* Capable of playing up to 64 tracks simultaneously.

* Ability to click, drag, copy, merge, or delete tracks.

* Enhanced use of GEM operating system allows instantaneous switching between 
screens.

* Cycle record mode with up to 16 overdubs.

* Cue function for previewing events.

* Ability to assign up to 64 MIDI channels for use with C-Labs's Export(tm)
MIDI expansion interface, which provides increased MIDI bandwidth.

* Computer keyboard and MIDI keyboard operation of all transport controls.

* Undo function

* Check function for removing duplicates while looping (great for rhythm
programming).

* Ability to name MIDI channels (e.g., by instrument).

* Keyboard control of all mouse functions.

* Virtual fader control of all parameter values.

* can display MIDI clocks in milliseconds.

Suggested Retail:  $349.00

Runs on a 520, 1040, or Mega ST; monochrome or color monitor.


[end of blurb]
*******************************************************************************


It looks pretty impressive.  There are some sample displays and some of the
windows are called: ARRANGE, PATTERN, TRACK, and some of the buttons etc. are:
Arrange (on/off), syncDELAY, SYNC (int/extern), tempo, Quantitize, measure
(4/4 etc), Autodroop, cycle, Edit, solo, hide, MIDI thru, MIDI overflow, etc.

The next reply will list a bit of info from C-Labs blurb.

CHad

 Some additional notes from the blurb from C-lab itself (not direct quotes):

Notator is a system that includes the *complete*  Creator plus a comprehensive
notation edit/printout system, all apparently in one program. "There is no
didvision between MIDI data and their display in notation form."

1/768th note resolution.

"* Data reduction: a musically oriented system automatically saves a 
considerable amount of memory space amongst control data and helps to keep 
timing at its optimum"

"The program also supports the MIDI Universal Dump Standard."

This appears to support powerfully both pattern based and linear recording
sequencing/recording.

Some Notator only features:

"C-Lab CREATOR Sequencer + Notation Editor + Score printout  ...all in ONE
program!"

"* Every function directly accessible: no need to change program or dongle,
neither is any data-exchange necessary via disk."

"* Every CREATOR Sequencer function accessible as usual at all times."

"* The famous CREATOR multitasking includes all the new notation functions."

"* Display is in notation-only, event-only or notation-and-event formats:
that way, even the most minute changes can be made at NIDI event level
in the famous Event Editor without changing windows."

"* Every alteration can be made with the NOTATOR in play mode, and the results
are immediately hearable."

"* Display of single tracks or whole 32-stave scores."

"* Any clef allowed, including bass, terble, and the various C-clefs."

Many freely insertable things like text, notation marks, etc.

"* Printout using 8 and 24 pin dot matrix printers -- any printer can be
accomodated."

"* High resolution 24-pin font."

"* Laser compatibility coming soon."

***********************************************************************


There was also a blurb about X-ALYZER, DX LIBRARY & EDITOR DX-TO-SAMPLE 
TRANSFORMER.  I might type some of that stuff later.

CHad

Last night a salesman and I demoed Notator a bit.  It was a first for us 
both.  We didn't get much done because we didn't have the time at the 
moment to really dig down deep and read the manual as we went and it
is quite complex to use all the features of it.  As a MasterTracksPro
user I am accumstomed to a certain interface.  Because of that, adapting
to a different interface is a bit harder than for someone who hasn't used
anything before (I'm trying here to explain the learning by doing method).

We were able to step enter (using mouse and musical notation) a track
and print it out.  On my NEC P2200 24 pin printer it looked real good.
We were also able to record in real-time something I played and then
print that out.  I couldn't figure out how to break my thing I played
into 2 staves etc so there were about 12 ledger lines drawn below the staff
for the bass notes.  I assume however that I could have told it to do 
use a trble and a bass staff.  We printed part of a demo song and it
printed multiple staves.  The whole menu bar was full of menu categories and
each drop down menu had 10 ^ 6 choices.  MAny of the choices did not
seem to correspond to things in master tracks pro.  There seemed to be so
many more options available in Notator.

I feel this program is worthy looking into for those looking for an Atari
sequencer package.  It looked very powerful.   Definitely one to read the
manual on though.

BTW, the copy protection is through the use of a hardware dongle on the
cartridge port.   It comes with two disks, a user disk and a backup disk.

Chad

(I plan on buying it when I save ssome money and get out of debt from 
financing my car [beyond meeting the payments, the down payment put me
in the red :-( ] )

    I've briefly used NOTATOR and I have never seen a single software
    package that is so jam-packed with features. However, there is one
    major difference to distinguish it from similar packages. It propounds
    a method of song assembly which gets away from the tape analogy
    of all other sequencers. Len Fehskens touched on this in another
    note somewhere. That is; the more natural way of putting a song
    (viz arrangement) together is NOT by laying down the ENTIRE drum
    track, then the bass, then the....etc., but by a 'parallel' approach.
    That is; "here's a good brass figure for bar 35, and I've a good
    drum fill for that bar also", etc. Notator (as far as I have seen),
    allows you to chuck these 'notes' into a heap which it will sort
    out on replay/print.
    	I know that this is possible with other sequencers, but the
    point is that Notator facilitates it. I reckon that this is the
    way of the future for sequencers/notators.
    	I see the figure of $439 mentioned. The price in the UK is about
    �435 !!!   How do you do it ?  (ie. similar disparity in many other
    fields, such as the Mac). 
    	I'm going to get this package, even if I've got to send the
    wife down to the docks for a few days.
    
    Jim Burke 
    t

Yes, 

I agree with you there Jim.  I don't have great experience as a composer or
arranger but I do know that my use of MTP is similar to how creator/NOtator
is set up -- I do 4 8 or 12 bars bass, then the same amount of another
instrument, and then tie everything together in a different set of tracks.

Notator is definitely on my list for the future when my immediate debts
are taken care of.

Chad

	Well, I finally got my MegaST2 back from Atari in Sunnyvale (actually 
they ended up sending me a new one) after Lasalle Music sent me one with a bad 
cartridge port (this can be quite a problem when both Notator and Steinberg's
DX/TX Synthworks use hardware keys). 8*(   I've only had a little time to fool 
around with Notator/Creator but I can already see that it is *quite* the 
sequencer/score editor - 'extensive' is too mild a word to describe it.

	There's one problem I'm having, though, that's really starting to bug
me: the documentation claims that Notator's software MIDI THRU will dump data
from the MIDI IN to the MIDI OUT without going through the sequencer first
(I assume that this is for all MIDI channels that are *not* being used by
Notator).  I have the following set up -


    KX88    ->    Atari ST (Notator)    ->    TX802    ->    Midverb II

       (out -> in)	           (out -> in)   (thru -> in)

With my KX88 set to dual mode, I haven't figured out how to send program changes 
for my TX802 on one channel (the present track in Notator) using Bank A *AND* 
send program changes on another MIDI channel to the Midiverb II using Bank B.
With the Atari not in the above picture (i.e. KX88 -> TX802 etc.) this works
fine.  However, when I try the same thing with Notator in the middle, any change
I make on *either* Bank sends changes to my TX802 only.

I spoke to Chad about this one and he said something about "Notator is 
re-mapping the changes to all channels, MTP does the same thing".  Well, Chad's
left to go to Utah until next week and he's left me as guest moderator for
two notes conferences and without a clear answer to my problem (and also
without a solution!).  He's lucky we've been friends for half our lives. :) :)

Did I understand his explanation correctly?  Is there anything I can do other
than go out and buy an MX-8 or something to filter the channels properly?

Note: Notator has a setting for OMNI ON/OFF, both which I have tried with no
success (in case anyone is wondering).

Any help will be greatly appreciated...

Dan

    
    re -1
    Sounds like not to dissimilar set up to my own.. Well the
    KX88-Atari-Tx802 bit anyway. I am using Cubase/pro-24 as a sequencer.
    There are I think 2 ways to solve the problem which I do believe
    is a remapping problem In other words the sequencer is recording
    on one midi-channel for the track you are recording and sending
    it out on the midi-channel you have assigned for the instrument
    you want on that track. Presumably your TX802. IF you want to record
    reverb changes on that track at the sames time you will have to
    turn off the midi-channel number for that track in the sequencer I
    think C-lab goes from 0-16 where 0 is no remapping. This would achieve
    what you want to do. You must make sure the KX88 channel assigments
    are correct however. The other alternative, which is what I do,
    is to record the effects program changes on a seperate track. 
    
    Different strokes !
    
    					Paul.

	Thanks Paul,

		You're right - after spending 5+ hours playing with my
	setup last night, I discovered in the manual that one can use 
	Channel 0 (ORIGINAL) which will keep things separate or I can 
	program effects sends on a separate track.  I didn't spend too
	much time trying to actually do this, though.

		What if I want to hear MIDI channel 1 playing and at the 
	same time control the MIDIverb in realtime (just to hear what 
	sounds good)?  Should I set up a separate RECORD track and erase 
	it every time?  Is there an easier way (providing I *do* want to 
	leave track 1 = MIDI channel 1)?

	Dan (who_is_fast_becoming_a_MIDIholic)

Hey Dan -

    It might help to think of THRU as a global assignment.  MTP (and
    probably Clab, from PK's description) rechannelizes all input to the
    THRU channel.  If you happen to be recording, c'est la vie.  If not,
    data gets rechannelized anyway - unless you're set to 0.

    Your question was "what if I only want to hear channel 1, but want to
    control the MVII in realtime?".  Well, here's how I'd do it with MTP: 

    1.	Set track containing channel 1 data to "solo" (SOLO is a feature of
	MTP that mutes all tracks except the one[s] SOLOed).  I'm sure that
	Clab has a similar feature. 

    2.	Set THRU channel to 0, telling the "echo" s/w module to soft thru
	anything it encountered untouched.  The THRU channel setting
	should NOT affect playback whatsoever.

    3.	Set the current channel on the KX (single mode) to the MVII
	channel (15 in my setup).

    That should allow you to diddle all you want.

    Of course, you could always fool with the MVII's front panel ... &*} 

-b

	Hi Brad,

	Yes, CLab does have a 'solo' function and I think it does exactly
	what MTP's 'solo' does.

	Why did you say to set the KX88 to single mode?  Is it conceivable
	to have one bank control the MVII and the other patch changes on
	the TX802 (in Dual mode) and still have the Atari play (i.e. have
	both the Atari and one bank set to the same channel)?  I would be
	to be able to demo voices *and* reverb/fx settings for particular 
	tracks while they play.  Comments?

	Thanks so far,
	Dan

    When I'm doing *anything* using the sequencer THRU, I make sure I'm in
    single mode. 

    For example, say you're playing track 1 (MIDI channel=1, too) from your
    sequencer, and your KX is set to xmit on channels 1 and 15 (1=TX802,
    15=MVII).  Well, any volume changes and what not that you happen to
    errantly apply globally (for example, pushing the wrong patch bank
    number or using the volume pedal) will screw up the TX802.  Ends up
    being somewhat confusing at times. 

    Another somewhat-related reason - you can clog up your SGU if you're in
    dual mode while recording.  A recent example - I recorded a basic FM
    piano track a few months ago for a friend, evidently while my KX76 was
    in dual mode.  Well, the sequencer faithfully recorded data from BOTH
    channels and rechannelized (just like it's supposed to do).  Problem
    is, rechannelization cut my polyphony in half, because is dual mode the
    KX spits out twice as many notes as in single mode (2 notes for each
    key pressed) ... and with a piano patch, the difference between 8 and
    16 notes is like night and day. 

    It's darn near impossible to go thru in step mode and delete all the
    unwanted notes ... and it's a rare sequencer that offers this type of
    data thinning capability. 

    I ended up having to record the whole track over again.

-b

    (thought I'd revive this note....)
    
    I'm having a problem understanding how Arrange mode works. What I do
    is:
    	I have little tune consisting of two bits - the first half 
    (Pattern 1), and the second half (Pattern 2) [ie. the two Patterns run 
    in 'serial', not 'parallel'].
    	I put Patterns 1 and 2 in Layer A, and when I play it, only one of
    the two patterns play, depending on which Pattern is displayed in the 
    Pattern window. 
    	However, when I put Patt 1 in Layer A, Patt 2 in Layer B, then both 
    Patterns play OK. 
    
    	I'm missing something here. Can anybody enlighten ?
    
    Thanks,
    Jim Burke

Hi Jim,

	Well, I've used the 'arrange' mode before (and it works great!) so
hopefully I can help you out.    	

>	I have little tune consisting of two bits - the first half 
>    (Pattern 1), and the second half (Pattern 2) [ie. the two Patterns run 
>    in 'serial', not 'parallel'].

	Just to get the translation right, by serial you mean *sequentially*,
right?  (Pattern 1 plays through its entirety, and then pattern 2 plays through)
Assuming this is the case....

>    	I put Patterns 1 and 2 in Layer A, and when I play it, only one of
>    the two patterns play, depending on which Pattern is displayed in the 
>    Pattern window. 

	That's what's supposed to happen.  *But*, when the first one stops, the
second one will start, provided you've turned the 'Arrange' mode on (its default
is '---'; it is located on the main screen, next to tempo, I think)

>    	However, when I put Patt 1 in Layer A, Patt 2 in Layer B, then both 
>    Patterns play OK. 

	Seems unnecessary to me - you should be able to have both patterns in 
the same layer and have them play in order.

	FWIW, I just got married on 8/5 and all of our music was sequenced 
using Notator.  What was really great about the 'Arrange' mode was that I
was able to have all of our ceremony music in one huge song, with each pattern
being a different tune.  This was especially helpful because the person I had
run the equipment (a fellow DECcie) had never used an Atari computer before let
alone a sequencer.  Anyway, I used pattern 0 (stop) in between songs so that
once the appropriate tune was over it would automatically stop.  To start the
music from that point (the next pattern), he just had to hit the <.> on the 
keypad.  It went flawlessly......

Dan

    Dan,
    	thanks for the help. I've fiddled about with it at length, and I
    now have the hang of Arrange mode.
    
    	However; there are a few funnies, and I'm not sure whether it's
    finger trouble or bugs. Here is one.
    
    	I am very suspicious of the COPY SECTION function. I have lost
    	data with this. I think I understand it OK, but I have had various
    	(usually disastrous) results.
    	Also, after exiting COPY SECTION (or is it COPY TRACK ?), the
    	screen is corrupt. I can save the file OK, but I have to restart
    	NOTATOR in order to get an intelligible screen back.
    
    	Has anyone had this trouble ?  Are there any more suspicious
    features ?
    
    	Having said that, I am dead chuffed with it. It can do just about
    anything with a MIDI stream, and the notation editing/printing
    facilities are the best I've seen.
    
    Jim Burke
    
    PS	NOTATOR V2.1

Jim,

	I just got my update of v2.1 last week and haven't had much time to
fool around with it, but I've used COPY TRACK and COPY SEGMENT in 2.0 without
a hitch - no disasters at all. I'll look into it (hopefully) this weekend and
post results next week.

>    It can do just about
>    anything with a MIDI stream, and the notation editing/printing
>    facilities are the best I've seen.

	I agree!  I feel that the $$$$ investment was worth it - now I just
need to to get myself an HP Deskjet+.

Dan