Conference napalm::commusic_v1

	You may want to go in to the sequence after the fact and do some 
velocity edits.  That would make it one-up on the rolls (which must be all
set up at the same accent level - at least precluding any mechanism problems).

	I wonder how the courts would view the arrangment of who owns the
sequence (the company that owns the rolls, or the one who converts them to 
sequences).  Perhaps a complex system of roylties are in order?

	Dan

    > velocity...
    
      I dunno squat about player mechanisms, but wouldn't a smaller
      hole in the roll result in lower 'velocity'????
    
    Edd

    re: .1
    
    As far as the copyright goes, the company that owns the rolls will
    sue the company that owns the sequences if there is money to be
    made.  And, that suit would only be filed after the sequence company
    had been allowed to make plenty of money on sales and it began to
    look like sales were tapering off.  I think this is what happens
    when somebody cuts a demo that gets heard by a producer of some
    big star and the big star comes out with a 'hit' that sounds a lot
    like the demo.  They let the hit get big and sue when there's a
    big pile of money waiting.  Of course, I think in that case they
    usually hope to just settle out of court.  But, since there is not
    much money to be made with either piano roles or sequences constructed
    from piano rolls, at most there would probably be a small time exchange
    of nastigrams between lawyers ...
    
    Steve

RE < Note 1581.2 by JAWS::COTE "SuperBowl '89 OR YOUR MONEY BACK!" >

	I'm no expert either, but my guess would be that the mechanism is
not sophisticated enough to support dynamics.

	Dan

    Edd,
    
    So far as I know, this has been done.  But maybe not, cause I've been
    looking for the results of this and have been 100% unsuccessful.
    
    Regarding editing in velocity.  I get the impression that this is
    based on the assumption that player pianos didn't record velocity.
    
    Most of them didn't, but the Aeolian piano did, and the first roll
    that was cut for that was George Gershwin playing the Rhapsody in
    Blue.   The Aeolian was very popular and there are lots of good
    rolls (still) available for it.
    
    When I was looking for a house, my realtor happened to show me one
    owned by a guy who owned an Aeolian piano and a vast library of rolls.
    With my real estate agent looking on impatiently, I looked thru his
    library and involved the owner in a long discussion about the Aeolian.
    He was only too happy to talk about it cause it was his obsessive
    hobby and no-one (not even his wife) could appreciate his devotion
    to it.
    
    Anyway, the fatal stab for my realtor came when he mentioned that
    he HAD the Gershwin roll (3 copies!!!).  We arranged for my realtor
    to leave to take care of other business so that I could stay and
    listen to the roll.  The seller would drive me home.  Heaven!
    
    	db
    

    Didn't at least one player-piano mechanism have a velocity-modulation
    port over near the edge; the velocity modulations were tapered slots
    unlike the square holes for note-ons?
    
    	-Bill
    

    re .6 - yeah, I've seen a player piano that took rolls like that.
    
    I've also seen a "player organ", that took player piano rolls.
    
    len.
    

Chickering made (makes?) a reproducing grand player piano which duplicates
velocity and note on/off.

dave

    Yamaha or someone teamed up with a piano maker 10 years ago and
    had a digital on audio cassette recording system, with velocity.
    You could change the tempo by changing the tape speed.
    
    Right, the old piano rolls that had velocity applied the same velocity
    to all simultaneous events.
    
    Why not get some living pianists to play into a midi keyboard?
    because they'd rather die first.
    Tom

    > Why not get some living pianists to play into a midi keyboard?
    > because they'd rather die first.
    
    Well, see... I'm partial to the Gershwin version.  I don't think
    "some pianist" could do it quite the same way.
    
    	db

    Yamaha also makes a player grand with a 3-1/2" diskette for storing
    and loading sequences.  I think it might have MIDI plugs on it
    somewhere, even.
    
    I bet the PX1000 sounds better anyway...
    
    Steph

    There were also things called "Band organs" also, the original meaning
    of the word "Nickleodeon" was something like this.  They incorporated
    pianos, organs, calliopes, bells, drums, horns, reeds, you name
    it.  I remember seeing one play out at the Circus Museum in Baraboo
    Wisconsin when I was a kid.  They're quite an experience.  Some
    of them were absolutely deafeningly loud when you got too close.
    They were meant to get your attention, and they do.
    
    						-Jeff
    

    THe Gershwin version is not recorded on piano rolls; it's very hard
    to get the tempo right on those rolls (I just remembered I have
    the Gershwin piano roll recording), the dynamics were incorrectly
    recorded to apply to all the notes at once (it wasn't individual
    dynamics for each note) and Ira's wife says the LeBeque sisters
    do it closer to George than anyone alive; get it on CD.
    Tom

    re .7
    
    A Player organ. Hmmm, now THAT would be interesting. Could you imagine
    encoding 4 manuals, a pedal board, stop selections, and expression
    pedals onto punched paper? You'd need a roll three feet wide! Unless,
    of course, you used UPC encoding instead of punched paper. But then
    there'd be all sorts of standard problems. The punched paper roll
    should be able to support the old piano protcol, with a default
    stop setting. Furthermore, J.L. Cooper would have to design a UPC
    to punched roll (and vice versa) converter. This box would have
    an optional MIDI port (at additional cost) which would allow interface
    to a sequencer.
    
    dp
    

    
    re: .* Velocity sensitive pianos/organs
    
      You would be very surprised....The Aeolean piano aforementioned
    actually uses a binary code for velocity. 4-bit, too. You can see
    it on the side of the rolls.
    
      The player organs I have seen are rather small, all on the order
    of a single manual. Yup, they allocated space for the stops. But
    little reed organs only have about 10 stops anyway.
    
      In college, I was a 'caretaker' for a set of 1940's vintage Deagan
    chimes. These used a wax paper roll on a metal drum. There were
    a number (48) of wires that looked kind of like a comb, which was
    raised and lowered depending on whether or not you were loading
    or playing a roll. It ran on 12 volts. The wax paper was an insulator.
    Where the holes were, obviously the 'comb teeth' made contact with
    the drum. The chimes were a 60-pound-plus unit, consisting of a
    bunch of metal bars (tallest was about 18"), each with it's own
    electro-magnetic striker, damper, and pickup. The pickups were all
    wired in parallel and balanced at the end with a transformer.
    
     Thing made an incredible noise. We used to crank it up for Christmas.
    It had a clock, and it did Westminster chimes, too. The hour chimes
    were 'rom-driven' by hardwired connections. A motor drove an arm
    around a set of pins, each pin was connected to one of the 7 'chime
    relays', or it was not connected (resting). As the thing turned
    (117V, live pins!!!) the chimes played.
    
      Primitive, but effective. Has since been trashed in favor of one
    that plays those silly 8-track cassettes of chimes playing. So much
    for engineering schools.
    
    /pjh
    

    There is already someone doing this very thing. I saw an ad in the
    Roland rag about it. As for the midi coming from live musicians
    ... How do you think they made the rolls... Do you really want such
    a beast? A midi interfaceable piano rool reader/punch can be made
    for a price.
    
    Jim