Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    ART Multiverb...list price $575
    
    Frequency response (according to the Lou at West L.A. music)
    
    up to 20k digital, 16k analog  (huh?)
    
    Should be available everywhere in late July.
    
    Here's everyone's Harmonizer!!!!

    > Here's everyone's Harmonizer!!!
    
    Not mine.  This boy's harmonizer will be the Eventide H-3000 which
    harmonizes to scale intervals (any scale) as well as absolute
    intervals.
    
    Trust me.  The Eventide is gonna start showing up on a lot of people's
    records because of that feature.
    
    Only problem is it list for about $2k more than this ART thing.
    
    I'm saving my penny's though...
    
    	db

    I don't know how these things are built, but I can't see why a multi-FX
    unit with one set of outs is worth any more than several single FX
    units.

    Sure, there are things like less rack space and only one MIDI channel &
    patch change command required to change to 3/4 new FX, but it would be
    nice to be able to run 3 different snd/rtns and have the FX patches
    programmed to route the various signals to the various rtns. 

    Unless there's some provision for this, I can't see what the big deal
    is.  It doesn't seem to be *that* big of a technological improvement. 

-b

    I agree with .3 (signed "-b").  Sure, there are times when you'd
    like to add reverb, eq, and delay to vocals at the same time;  
    other times you might want to add chorus, eq, delay, and reverb
    to keyboards, etc.  Having one unit to instantly change all these
    setups is great, but it clearly doesn't answer all your live mixing
    needs.  E.g., if you have one effects loop, then everything that
    is sent thru that loop will be processed will all four of the effects
    that you have currently selected;  vocals, keys, drums, etc, will
    all receive the same set of four effects, which can turn to mud
    when the delay that ever so enhances your vocals turns the drums
    into mush.
    	I suppose if they put separate inputs/outputs to/from each of
    the four accesable effects, so you could sent four loops to the
    unit, you could alleviate the problem, but then you'd have effectively
    four individual effects in one package.
    
    	Whatever,
    		Ron
  

    Well consider the following for live situations:
    
    1) It's less to cart around, setup, breakdown, less cables to mess
       up, etc.  I.E. it's simpler
    
    2) To change sounds you press one button.  Suppose I have two patches
       with 3 effects going on.  With a multi-effects device, you can
       hit one button/stomp switch/whatever and it happens.  With several
       devices, you have at least 3 things to change, and probably much
       more.
    
    It's sorta like changing patches on a synth.  It's nice to be able
    to hit one button and get the right sound.  Same thing for guitar
    players who are using these things.  THey want to go quickly from
    one sound to another.
    
    	db

    I think you said it all, db ... multi FX are great for guitarists. For
    synth players, I dunno.  *I* would rather have seperates.

-brad

    Another feature is that the FX are done digitally and internally.
    Thus, there is less noise introduced due to the extra D/A and A/D
    that you would have with single-effect units.  Also, the cost per
    effect is probably reduced.
    
    Steve

    To add to the these things are great for guitarists discussion....
                                                                  
    I could concievably use reverb, chorus, echo and pitch doubling at
    the same time...in one rack space would be nice...
    
    dbII

    Also note that many effects can have stereo outs.  Surpringly enough,
    very few effects units have stereo ins.
    
    What this means is that if you are doing stereo, you may be forced
    to choose between:
    
    	1) not doing stereo for some effects
    
    	2) having to get a mixer that sends stuff out in mono and mixes
           the stereo returns.  (If you already have a mixer you could
    	   regard this item as being the disadvantage of eating up
    	   effects sends.)
    
    	3) tons and tons of cords
    
    There's definitely a place in this world for multi-effects boxes.
    
    	db

>There's definitely a place in this world for multi-effects boxes.

    Agreed.  The "place" (read:market) would be even larger if there were
    boxes that had assignable multiple outs.  Thus endeth my whine.

-brad

    I think for a multi-track guy like me, a multiple efx box will work
    better.
    
    I'm not doing rapid program changes, I'm using only one sound generator
    at a time (except for layered voices), and I get more bang per buck.
    
    Ashley

    I demoed the Digitech DSP128 last night at Wurly in Worcester. I
    played with it for about 30 minutes, and only developed a cursory
    understanding of how to program the darn thang. I found out that
    while it is a fine layered effects processor, it is a hassle to
    program, and it doesn't offer quite as much flexibility as Digitech
    would have us believe. 
    
    For instance program number 1 is a large room reverb only. You can
    tweak it all you want, but you can't use program 1 for anything
    except for large room reverb, period. The rest goes for the other
    127 programs. You can tweak them all you want, but the effect
    combination (ie. Reverb, chorus, delay) are all hard-coded into
    the patch numbers, and you are pretty much stuck with the basic
    combinations they give you. Some of the patches are dedicated for
    reverse reverb, gated reverb, and if you have no use for these
    sounds, then these patches are pretty much gonna be wasted. Tweaking
    the patches seemed to be rather combersome. You turn to the patch
    number you want to tweak, and then hit select. Once you hit select,
    you have to run through the entire programming sequence for that
    patch. You can't change your mind and exit right out of the programming
    mode, you have to follow through. For the combinational programs,
    this could mean sifting through 17 differant algorhythms. 
    
    My conclusions were as follows. For the money, it is still a nice
    unit. I didn't get to the point with it where I could rate the
    sound quality fairly. The programming is a pain. I wouldn't want
    to try tweaking a sound at a gig. Everything would have to be pre-
    programmed at home. Bottom line, I am no longer thinking about getting
    one. I guess I will have to check out the ART and Alesis units.
    I already have an Alesis MidiverbII, and am very happy with it,
    but I need another effects unit for my PA system.
    
    Mark Jacques
    
    
    

    >     For instance program number 1 is a large room reverb only. You can

    This is patently FALSE.  For each program, you may select any one
    of 17 effects algorithms, which are, as you described, combinations
    of various effects.
    
    As far as tweaking parameters, you needn't decide what parameter
    values you want before a gig, but you must decide what parameters
    you will want to tweak before a gig.
    
    What this means is that, since the DSP has global controller
    assignments only, you must fixedly chose that MIDI continuous #46 will
    be used for reverb time, and #47 will be used for pre-delay, etc..  The
    number of parameters you can tweak is only limited by the number of
    continuous controllers that you can spare.  You can even ``tweak'' the
    algorithm number with a continuous controller, if you want.
    
    I agree that the front panel interface is terribly slow, but I'm
    going to be writing a configuration editor for my Atari, so that
    won't kill me.  At least it's easy to remember how to get around
    the front panel.
    
    I'm still not saying that the DSP is the end-all of effects, but I
    find most of your gripes to be misunderstandings.
    
    Steph
    
    
    

    Re. -.1  Sorry for the hasty opinion. I guess I should spend more
    time with a DSP128 before I judge it. Being a guitar player, I
    mainly rely on the front panel controls and don't use midi. 
    
    On another note, I read an ad for the Alesis MidiverbII this past
    weekend in Musician. They advertized the MVII for $269.oo. This
    is an incredible price. When I bought mine a year ago, they listed
    for $399. I realize the MidiverbII is no longer the state of the
    art in signal processing, but for $269 it is still a great value.
    
    Mark Jacques
    

    $269 is list price now for the MVII. Nice price...
    
    Edd

    And I'll take an SRV-2000 for $300 (Thoroughbred Music) over an
    MV-II any day of the week.
    
    	db
    
    p.s. That is assuming all I want is reverb

    The SVR2000 may have more reverb flexibility, but the MidiverbII 
    has got Delay, Chorus, Flange, and special effects. It's a differant
    animal !! Kind of unfair to compare the 2 units. They are aimed
    at satisfying differant sets of priorities.
    
    If the MidiverbII is listing for $269, then what are they actually
    selling for ?  How about the MicroverbII ? What is the differance
    between a Microverb, and a MicroverbII ? 
    
    Mark
    

    I paid list ($269, but they threw in some cables) for the unit that's
    going back today.
    
    Considering all, I'm glad I bought it there as opposed to mail order.
    
    Edd

    
    
    I also paid $269 for the unit that's going back tomorrow.  Kinda
    wish I had bought an SRV now....never had ANY problems with
    a Roland product....can't say the same for Alesis though.
    
    Ralph
    
    

    I paid $300 for my DSP128. That was right before the price increase.
    The unit is very programmable, but not easy to program. Good unit.
    
    Geoff

    Hey, guys, don't forget ... and SRV-2000 is MONO in, STEREO out.
    The MV2 is STEREO in and STEREO out.  That's why I've passed up
    getting an SRV in the past.
    
    Steve

    Roland isn't immune to manufacturing problems.  See the Octapad
    note for a Roland horror story.
    

    The MVII is NOT true Stereo in.   Only the dry signal is stereo
    in and out.   The wet signal is derived from the mono combination
    of the inputs.    This is not a complaint, however.   I love my
    MVII. 
    			Scott.

    re: whatever
    
    The MVIIs that I've seen are going for every bit of $269.
    
    The difference between the microverbII and microverb is that the
    microverb to has 16k bandwidth, and the microverb has 12k.  Also
    there are less reverse reverbs.
    
    And what is Stevie Ray Vaughn doing in this discussion...;^)
    
    Ashley

    16 bit??  12 bit??  $269???

    a) packing lit on MVII states 16 bit
    b) packing lit on �verb states 16 bit (not 12)
    c) I've seen prices from $200 on MVII (paid $225 at Profound)

-b

    Myu guess is that all that means is that the MV-II mixes L+R before
    the reverb stage.  That's handy, but I doubt it's significantly different
    in terms of "discreteness".
    
    Since most effects loops have mono sends, I never considered that
    an issue anyway.
    
    > kinda unfair to compare the 2 units.
    
    I wasn't comparing them, and I effectively acknowledge that differences
    between what they are (a multi-effect unit and a reverb) in my p.s.
    
    	db

    re: .23
    
    Ahhh, I stand corrected ...  It does mix the wet signal.  
    (gnaw, gnaw ...)
    
    
    
    Steve

    re: .25
    Here in LA-LA land dealers can barely keep them stocked at list,
    so that's what they're going for.
    
    Microverb I and II are 16bit.  And (according to salespeople) Microverb
    I is 12kHz bandwidth, MicroverbII is 16kHz.
    
    db, why don't you include digital efx in the next bulletin board
    of prices???
    
    
    Ashley

    > db, why don't you include digital efx in the next bulletin board
    > of prices???
    
    I think you may misunderstand how the DECMS bulletin board
    operates.  I don't go out looking for prices to add to the bboard.
    People send me price quotes that *THEY* got and I edit them into
    the BBOARD.  I am strictly an editor, not a market analyst.
    
    That is, I don't go out getting quotes for stuff I'm not in the market
    for the sole purpose of inclusion in the BBOARD.  Only for stuff I'm 
    looking to buy in the near future.
    
    Thus, if you want to include digital efx in the BBOARD this is an
    action item for you, not me.
    
    	db

    re .18 and .19
    
    Just curious. What is wrong with the MVII's that are going
    back ?? I called East coast sound yesterday and asked for
    a quote on an MVII among other things. They said they have
    stopped selling Alesis products because they had a bunch of
    drum machines with the pads falling off, and Alesis did not
    stand behind the product to their satisfaction.
                      
    Mark

    As I stated in another note, my MVII overload indicator came
    on and stayed on, even with no signal present. All the FX seemed
    to work though. Still, it's like driving a car you *know* is full
    of oil and having the OIL light on... you don't wanna trust it.
    
    Had it not been under store warranty I woulda lived with it until
    the smoke got to thick to see through, THEN sent it out for repair.
    
    Edd

RE: .30

    ECS gave you a line of crap.  I had an MVII on order from them for 3
    months - they quoted me $199 plus shipping.  They had around 70 orders
    at that price, and as far as I can tell, didn't fill any of them. 

    Like I said, Alesis cut their dealerships back, and I suspect that ECS
    was one who got cut.  The "QC satisfaction" issue is probably their way
    of crying sour grapes. 

    Unless you have a *real* good relationship with a mail order place,
    you're probably better off buying Alesis gear locally for now.

-b

    
    
    re .30
    
    Mine did the same thing as Edd's.  The overload led comes on
    as soon as the unit is powered up.  I haven't heard any problems
    with the effects, but it is a bit of pain.  
    
    ralph
    
    

    
    My MVII did two entirely different things. It came out of it's box
    with one of the keys ripped out of the front panel. It took Alesis
    approximately 3 weeks to ship my dealer a replacement keypad (!!!!).
    I got a written apology from Alesis about that (this was last year).
    
    
    The second problem was the fact that there was a cold solder joint
    on the power supply lead-in from the jack to the board. The (solid)
    wire ran STRAIGHT from the jack to the board with no slack, and
    it was solid and tinned. I replaced that myself, by sucking the
    hole dry, removing the wire, and replacing the wire with a stranded
    one, with extra slack for strain relief. Not terribly exciting work,
    but it beats sending the unit back. At least i trust MY qc ;^)
    
    But that's all of it.
    
    /pjh

Out of the ashes, through the mists of time, comes...the once and future note!

Long time since this sucker's seen any action, but it looked like a good place
to tack on some updated queries. Specifically, I'm starting to look into
effects boxes (currently got zip) for use with a four-track setup. To be used
for vocals, acoustic instruments, acoustic-electric guitar, and synth/drum
machine.

Seems like the current ballpark for programmable, MIDIable units is ~$300 or so.
Main entry seems to be the Alesis Midiverb III ($315 at Sam Ash); I'd heard at
least one good report on the Digitech DSP 128+, but I've also heard it
criticized as noisy. The 128+ claims 20Hz-20KHz bandwidth, and the Alesis tops
out at 15KHz. At the moment the Alesis is my "druther" if/when the bucks appear.
Any opinions? (I played with one at Daddy's in Nashua and like it, BTW.)

Also, what's been folks' experience with the nonprogrammable boxes like the
Microverb? My current feeling is that I'd rather wait until I can go with the
MIDIverb. The jury's still out on whether I'll end up with a synch box first,
but I'm leaning towards giving priority to the effects.

Thanks in advance for your brain pickings.

Cheers,
	Bob

    Can you do more than one effect simultaneously with the MVIII?  The
    DSP128+ does 4 at a time and can be had for less than $300 thru
    mailorder.
    
    I've used the DSP128+ (a few different friends own them) and I think
    they more than hold their own.  I don't consider them noisy either.
    
    Mike

Yeah, the DSP at Sam Ash is $299. MIDIverb III does three effects at once, I
believe.

It's sometimes really hard to get good info from folks selling the stuff,
obviously. It could be the "noise" slap was simply due to the store not having
any DSP's (they're out of production, I've been told).

What do you use the DSP with? My only input on it so far (from a user, that is)
was based on electric guitar use. I have a feeling that my preferred effects
might be a tad different.

Bob

    Re: -1
    
    also guitar based use.  Another difference may be program titling.  The
    DSP128+ display is numerical based.
    
    Mike

    
    
      I find the patches on the DSP128(+) which use the built-in eq
    very noisy. Totally unusable to me unless one sets the eq gain (in
    the patch) to zero, which sort of makes the algorhythm selection
    moot.
    
      Alesis effects are 300% cleaner.
    
    
    RichC
    
      PS  I've got a MidiverbII for sale for $190........
    
    

Well the Alesis QUadravervb is dual mono, 20-20Khz, very noise free and about
$400 new...

dual mono? yeah rather than "true stereo" it has the ability to seperately 
process stereo inputs, or stereoize a mon input 

I use mine with guitar in my midi rack

dbii

    I use my DSP128+ for my guitar rig and with my 4 track.
    I love it.  I've had a bunch of processors that have come and
    gone, and dollar for dollar the DSP128+ is the cats meow.
    They can be had all day for $250.  For that, and for a guitar players
    rack/basement studio they work great !! (yeah, it's a "little" noisey
    I guess... I dunno).
    
    jc (Never noticed any "noise" that I didn't *want* there... ;)

    yeah when you're using the "Marshall" preset, who can hear the noise
    ;-)

I probably should clarify my expected use of effects. As I said, signals will
come from a mix of synth, acoustic-electric (i.e., acoustic with pickup) guitar,
vocals, and various (miked) acoustic instruments. Reverb, chorus, and delay will
probably see about 1000 times more action than any kind of distortion, if it
happens to be in the box at all. I'm thinking that I'll use it far more to
simply "spatialize" the sound than to add outrageous levels of effect to any
voice- but then, I can't say WHAT I'll really do once I get started, never
having owned one. (I'll probably know *just* what I want after I buy one which
*isn't,* right?)

I think the Quadraverb/ART Multiverb machines are out of the range I'm looking
at, weighing in at about $400 street price. I'd love to actually A/B the
MIDIverb and the DSP128+ to arrive at my own comparative judgement, but alas
don't know of a local shop with both. Sigh. Even so, I'd feel kind of scummy
using up store space unless it's a shop where I might even *buy* the thing!
For the moment I'm still a settin' and a-thinkin'. Thanks for input so far, more
is welcome.

Cheers,
	Bob

    
    
      re .43
    
      Don't feel "scummy". 8)
    
      I *always* try the equipment out in a regular store. Then I buy
    it mail order for 70% of the price the store was asking.
    
    
    
    RichC
    

    
    
    A few comments on the MIDIverb II.
    
    
    Pros are:
    
    	o Directly addressable presets (it has a keypad)
    	o Good reverbs/choruses
    	o Really good flanges
    	o Stereo ins and outs + synthesized stereo
    	o Cheap ($200 or less)
    
    Cons:
    
    	o Presets only (good for reverbs, bad for delays)
    	o Too many reverbs it's got 40 or 50 reverb presets, include
    	  gated and reverse 'verbs.
    	o Not enough choruses
    	o Only one program at a time, though a bank of special FX which
    	  have some combined FX. 
    	o Presets only (I know I mentioned it twice)
    
    Overall I'd give it say a 7 out of ten. IMHO, buy something
    programmable if it's going to be your only FX box. I'm almost certain
    to buy a DSP128 when the old tax return comes in..
    
    -Tom
    

Re 45:

I presume that the "II" in the last note is *not* a typo, right? I'm actually
looking at the MIDIverb *III,* which I understand *is* programmable. The
"little brother" I figured would be a dead-ender is the Microverb III- the
MIDIverb II I presume is the predecessor to the III.

Re .44:

Can't help it, I try to imagine how I'd feel if (a) I were in the store owner's
shoes, or (b) the store went out of business and I had no place to *go* to try
stuff out. What I prefer is to find a local shop who's willing to price match
if you're savvy enough not to pay too much. If I *do* utilize a store as a
"try here, buy elsewhere" service (and at times I do), I make sure I purchase
*something* there which I feel compensates them for the gain I get.


So far, it sounds like the DSP has better bandwidth but at the expense of noise.
Gee, anyone know of a shop local to Nashua or Manchester, NH which *rents*
both units?

Evaluating stuff like this can be seen as either too easy or too hard, depending
on perspective. From the former, I can say I'm getting a rapid picture of what
I want- but I can't afford it! From the latter, I'm having a *really* hard time
finding the features of a Multiverb/Quadraverb/DRX/etc for the price of a
Microverb!!!

>I want- but I can't afford it! From the latter, I'm having a *really* hard time
>finding the features of a Multiverb/Quadraverb/DRX/etc for the price of a
>Microverb!!!
    
    ...just wait a year ;-)

    
    re: MV II
    
    	Yes, I meant the II. The III is indeed programmable.
    
    re: .-1 (wait a year)
    
    	You ain't kidding...
    
    -

     
    
    re .46
    
    
      I didn't say th DSP was totally noisy. Only when the internal
    eq gain is cranked over "2".
    
    
    RichC
    

    I have some DigiTech propaganda with me in the office.  I know you have
    to HEAR these units, but try these specs:
    
                      DSP128+        DSP256
    
    S/N ratio          88 db           88 db
    Bandwidth         20-20kHz        20-20kHz
    THD            < .08% @ 1kHz     < .08% @ 1kHz
    
    In case you're not familiar with it, the DSP256 is the professional
    series version of the DSP128+.  It has more effects, more memory,
    program titling, 3 band parametric EQ and 9 band graphic EQ.
    
    Mike

Hmmmm. Took another look at a message I got from someone regarding the DSP128+
(username PELKEY, first name ?). It referred to *9-band* parametric EQ. Is that
a typo, or is the move to 3-band parametric, 9-band graphic seen as a plus?

Anyone know if this (EQ) is in the Alesis specs? I haven't seen or heard of it,
but that doesn't mean it's not there.

I have to confess, one reason I've been a little more comfy with the Alesis is
that, given my relative inexperience with effects units, stuff with pretty
uniform "blessing" by folks *with* experience seems less likely to bite me. The
outpouring of support for the DSP is definitely reassuring, I just wish some of
it were oriented toward keyboard and/or vocal use.

The db ratings on the DSP gear seem to alleviate noise concerns a bit- now, as
to "tweakability," it seems that neither (if I read descriptions/reviews right)
lets the user define new "algorithms" (in this context, combinations of specific
effects in a user-definable sequence), but both let you adjust the basic
parameters such as delay time, reverb depth, and so forth. Not sure about
number of repeats on delays, though, or stereo positioning of individual "hits"
in multi-tap delays, and other "not-so-basic" parameters. Do these sound like
"only on the high-end stuff" features? (I think yes.)

(See, at this rate, I'll *take* a year making up my mind, and then I *can*
afford it! Sly, huh?)

Bob

    The "parametric" EQ in the 128 I believe is really shelving high and
    low with a sweepable mid.  Not sure if the Q on the mid is adjustable.
    
    							Brian

    The brochure doesn't say the DSP128+ has a multiband EQ and yes, you
    are stuck with their algorithms.  ART is good in this sense.  You can
    mix and match to your heart's content.  ART synthesizes their stereo
    though.  If I were you, I'd check out the ART Multiverb III.  From the
    ART catalog:
    
    - 53 different effects to choose from
    - up to 4 at a time
    - > than 90 db S/N ratio
    - 2 octaves of pitch transposing
    - 200 memory locations
    - real time performance MIDI
    - studio sampling up to 2 full seconds, auto, manual, and MIDI
      triggering, playback on the fly
    - 20 bit CPU
    - full programmibility of all params
    - sysex codes
    - random access keypad
    - title editing
    - 24 different reverb algorithms
    - 21 different digital delays
    - stereo in/out
    - software updateable (doesn't become obsolete once you get it home ;-))
    - MIDI data monitoring
    - stereo panner/imager
    - chorusing, flanging, multi-tap delays, rotating leslies
    
    Less than $400 via mailorder too.
    
    Mike

Re .52:

Thanks for the info. I think there shouldbe some kind of shelter for abused
words, myself- it's a growing problem!

FWIW, I called "Sound Deals" (number gotten from the note on dealer contacts,
names, numbers...) to see what they were about. They gave me a price on the
DSP128+ of $275, which lowballs even Sam Ash. Sounds like a one-man show
trying to get off the ground (been in business about a year). They don't stock
Alesis gear, no franchise. Quoted $365 for the ART Multiverb unit.

Bob

Re .53:

Presto, instant note collision! Quite fortuitous that I happened to get a price
quote on the ART unit. The type of price/performance difference between it and
the "next step down" seems like it's worth waiting for. I believe I'll try to
get a listen on one of them (while I wait, that is...)

Cheers,
	Bob

    
    Just so it doesn't get too one-sided on the side of the DSP-128, I have
    a Quadraverb and love it.  The Quadraverb can modulate almost any
    parameter via MIDI in real time (limit of 8 parameters modulated per
    patch).  
    
    Quadraverb is also very quiet, and very easy to learn (LCD display with
    useful messages).  The front-panel buttons are touch-sensitive- to
    scroll faster, push harder (someone did their User Interfaces 101
    homework!)
    
    	-Bill