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Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Title:* * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * *
Notice:Conference has been write-locked. Use new version.
Moderator:DYPSS1::SCHAFER
Created:Thu Feb 20 1986
Last Modified:Mon Aug 29 1994
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:2852
Total number of notes:33157

1419.0. "Help! another NOISE/DISTORTION problem" by FGVAXZ::LAING (Jim*261-2194*DEC MemorabiliaCollector) Mon May 30 1988 19:22

    I have a noise (or, more accurately, a DISTORTION) problem.  I've
    isolated it to my TX-802/Tascam M-06 Mixer combination.  It is most
    evident on sharp-attack patches, such as Rhodes piano or other piano
    type sounds.  It sounds like simple distortion, more evident as
    I play harder, more ovbious if I play 4 or 5-note chords.  I've
    tried using both the LINE and MIC inputs, various attenuation (trim)
    settings, etc.  Also, the Tx-802 itself is not likely at fault,
    as headphones direct out from the TX-802 produce clear/clean sound.
    
    My mixer has inputs ranging from -10dBV to -60dBV.  The distortion
    is evident even when the overall output is very low; it all seems
    to depend on how hard I play the piano sound.  
    
    Help!!!  Do I need another kind of mixer?
    
    	-Jim
T.RTitleUserPersonal
Name
DateLines
1419.1is this a developement or a revelation?ANGORA::JANZENTom LMO2/O23 296-5421Mon May 30 1988 19:3413
    We need to see an oscilloscope trace of the output of the synth.
    then the output of the mixer.
    
    Once I had a pre-amp with a dead battery with that symptom in a
    live performance.  Not a dead battery, just a wounded one.
    So the mixer could do that if it had batteries and the
    battery-replacement plug were coming out unnoticably.
    so that it was using batteries that weren't up to snuff.
    An audio chain element with insufficent poop in the power supplies
    (low voltage) can do that.
    It's a common problem with sharp attack piano sounds, though.
    Did this setup ever work correctly?
    TOm
1419.2No batteries...FGVAXZ::LAINGJim*261-2194*DEC MemorabiliaCollectorTue May 31 1988 10:036
    No batteries; all runs on AC power.  The problem had been noticed
    in the past, but is more noticable now due to a new controller with
    different touch/velocity characteristics, i.e. I'm sending higher
    velocity values more often to the TX-802.
    
    	-Jim
1419.3Mixer / keyboard specs?FGVAXZ::LAINGJim*261-2194*DEC MemorabiliaCollectorTue May 31 1988 10:0910
    I looked through some brochures on mixers ... sound reinforcement
    mixers, recording mixers, keyboard mixers.  There seems to be NO
    standardization in reporting of specifications!  Some talk about
    dBV, some about dBm.  A greater variety of input impedences than
    I'd expected; some with "line level" as the primary input, some
    with mostly "mic level with trim" on most inputs.  What "level"
    do most keyboards put out?  What impedence?  Couldn't find that
    sort of info in my TX-802 manual...
    
    -Jim
1419.4I think I've got it ...FGVAXZ::LAINGJim*261-2194*DEC MemorabiliaCollectorTue May 31 1988 11:1715
    Talking with someone, I think I've found the problem.  It isn't
    my mixer, it's my TX-802!  I'll have to experiment, but this seems
    very likely to be the cause:
    
    The TX-802 is a max output!  It has no VOLUME or OUTPUT control
    of its own.  I'd need to send MIDI volume messages to reduce its
    output.  Probably, due to it always being "turned all the way up"
    so to speak, it's overloading my mixer's input stage.  So, I'm left
    with a new problem: how can I attenuate the TX-802 without having
    to send MIDI volume messages?  I think Yamaha really goofed - every
    other MIDI sound module I have has a VOLUME or OUTPUT slider/knob!
    Short of buying a pedal or other device to send MIDI volume messages,
    how can I control this problem?!
    
    		-Jim
1419.5Time to Go PottyDRUMS::FEHSKENSTue May 31 1988 11:297
    Why not just use a volume pedal on the output?  Or a simple resistor
    network to pad the output down to an acceptable level for your
    mixer's input stages?  Doesn't the mixer have a gain/sensitivity
    control for the line input?
    
    len.
    
1419.6Attenuator schematicIOENG::JWILLIAMSZeitgeist ZoologyTue May 31 1988 11:4222
    Here's an attenuator network:
    
                  R1
    +------+----/\/\/\/----+------+
           |               |
           Z R2            Z R2
           Z               Z
           |               |
    +------+----/\/\/\/----+------+
                  R1

    Given an input impedance and an attenuation level in percent,
    solve for the simultaneous equations:
    
    Ri = 1/((1/R2)+(1/(R1+R1+R2)))
    A% = R2/(R1+R1+R2)
    
    If the input is unbalanced, that is, if one terminal is connected
    to ground, short one of the resistors and remove one of the R1's
    from each equation.
    
    						John.
1419.7MiscFGVAXU::LAINGJim*261-2194*DEC MemorabiliaCollectorTue May 31 1988 13:1112
    Re .5
    
    My mixer does have a sensitivity control, but as mentioned in .0,
    I get distortion/clipping when playing certain patches at high key
    velocities ... sure, I can get a pedal, but I wanted to avoid carrying
    yet another gadget with cables, etc.  The idea of a "Resister pad"
    sounds like it might be what I want, although I'm not very knowledgable
    in working with electrical components, etc.
    
    Thanks for the hints/suggestions...
    
    -Jim