Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    I _actually enjoy_ programming my own patches.  Sometimes it's because
    I'll have heard the sound in a dream (yeah, my dreams have
    soundtracks!) and all I want to do is duplicate that wonderful sound.
    
    Of course, thirty _good_ factory patches are far better than 300
    crappy patches... usually.  Sometimes you do need helicopters, barking
    dogs, breaking glass, and skyrockets.
    
    But face it, making a good patch is hard work, even with the best
    of interfaces.  In a way, it's art.  
    	
    Put it this way- your employer comes up to you and says "I need
    FOUR HUNDRED AND TWENTY new songs (or at least fleshed-out themes)
    in SIX MONTHS!  Do it!".  What kind of expectation on the quality
    of those four hundred and twenty pieces would you have.  
    
    Possibly a J.S.Bach of Patchery might make a good go of it, but
    the typical patchwriter is no JSB.                     
    
    Creating a good patch is almost as hard as creating a theme for a song.
    Sure, there are fifty-maybe "classical" instruments that ya just gotta
    have, and then there are another 30 variations (fuzzed, detuned, etc),
    and then... what?  Three hundred and fifty empty ROM slots are staring
    at you, all of which are filled with SINE-01 unless you get your butt
    into gear. 
    
    --------
    
    My solution - gimme lots of RAM locations!

    I guess I have to agree with you on the factory garbage that is
    being included with todays high-tech keyboards.  I have a Korg DSS-1
    sampling synth, and I would venture to say that 85% of the samples
    are Lousy!  The synth patches are fair to good, but I would rate
    them at about 85% also, same as samples.  I feel for the people
    who have these sound modules, with no editing power, or no computer.
    Guess this is why the prices are coming down nowadays.  You get
    what you pay for I guess.  As far as the FB-01 strings, and for
    that matter any F.M. string, they all pretty much lack.  F.M. is
    great for some things and horrible for others.  I had a DX 7 for
    a while, and was happy with brass, bass and some wind instruments,
    but wanted to die every time I heard the strings come out of her.
    I opted for the DSS-1 so that I could have the best of all sound
    generating worlds.  Sampling, harmonic waveform synthesis, and free
    form wave drawing.  Sure I have some complaints about this keyboard,
    but then again, I am the type that would complain about a Synclavier.
    Possibly never satisfied, go on and say it, but there are certain
    times when "almost" wont do when you are looking for that "Perfect"
    sound.  I dont have any answers for ya, but will sympathize with
    you if you like.  Good luck!
    
    Vinnie         Who_wantsa_geta_perfecto_el_loopo_summa_day
                                                              

    I'd willingly suffer the indignity of not having a helicopter patch
    if I could trade it for a RAM slot.
    
    One bank of my DX is all originals or tweeks. I don't think good
    4 op, sine wave strings are possible. Sounds like a head cold.
    (SINE-us condition??)
    
    I haven't hacked the TZ; there are a few sounds I like and I just
    haven't found the time...
    
    My MKS hasn't seen a factory patch in years. Upon buying it, I just
    started blowing away whatever was in it and programmed away. (Ah,
    analog!!)
    
    ...it takes me forever to come up with an FM patch.
    
    Edd 

    My experience, as a relative newcomer to this game, is similar to
    yours.  I have a K5 synth which came with 96 patches. There are
    perhaps three dozen or so that are REALLY good; the rest are mostly
    so-so.  (About 12-18 are just plain terrible!!).  I have heard most
    of the 300 or so additional RAM card patchs also, and again, most
    of them are not good enough that I would buy the RAM cards at $100
    a copy.  I intend to wait until the K5 Patch Editor is available
    from Dr. T and then copy the ones I want from my dealer.
    
    Clusters, 
    Bill 

    < Note 1404.3 by JAWS::COTE "Read it and weep..." >

   > I'd willingly suffer the indignity of not having a helicopter patch
   > if I could trade it for a RAM slot.
    
    I have always wondered about the usefulness of some of these incredibly
    stupid "effects patches".  I admit to using only two of them (both
    of which I have hacked): a "laser gun" type of effect and an explosion.
    They are used in a song which has the line "The beeping from the
    video machines".  Maybe it's just easier to create 32 weird sounds
    to fill a bank than it is to spend the time getting 32 useful sounds.
    
    Although I like a lot of the factory patches on the Juno-106, I
    have tweaked all the ones I use just because some of the paramters
    need adjustment: the patch is not quite bright enough, or the attack
    is too slow, or something like that.
    
    I must agree with the comments on FM strings.  I borrowed a TX81Z
    for a week and loved it, but couldn't use it as my only SGM because
    the strings were awful.  Fortunately, the unit is so inexpensive
    you can live with that for the other FM sounds.
    
    		Derek

Hate to go against the grain, but...

 I like factory preset patches. I have to. Because I don't like to futz
 with getting a synth to do something. I like spending every minute
 possible playing and writing. I like having a palette of sounds to
 choose from with easy access. If the FB has 240 sounds to choose from,
 I can live with some bad patches, as long as alot of fair ones are
 easily accessible.

 /Mitch

    I think the primary intent of factory patches has always been to show
    off what the machine can do in terms of a *variety* of sound.  Once
    again, marketing strikes.  In the case of ROM based machines, how in
    the world could you begin to please everybody?  There almost has to be
    an assortment. 

    For as long as I can remember, everybody has been looking for the
    all-in-a-box machine (now out comes Korg with the M1 ...).  I think
    most factory patches do an adequate job of displaying a machine's
    potential - I *did* say adequate, not good or excellent.

    Hey - if a box came loaded with 300 hot presets, people would still
    gripe because they couldn't tweak them.  And where would the
    aftermarket be?  The lure of the latest hot new sound sells lots of
    ROMs and RAMs. 

    An interesting aside - I loaded the factory presets I got with my OB-Xa
    back in 1981 into the machine a few weeks ago just to have a good
    laugh.  Well, it turns out that the presets that I (and everyone else I
    knew) thought were so lame are very similar to the percussive/breathy
    sounds that are considered hot today.

    And finally, I have a few FM string patches for the TXes that I will
    guarantee that you couldn't tell from an analog machine.  Poor use of
    the technology does not make it void. 

-b the_philosophical

Care to share those string patches with us?

I kind of like the strings on my Fb01.  At least the sound of the bow hitting
the strings is good.  Someone here at work who plays the violin thought
it was pretty good.  The trumpet is pretty lousy.

One big problem with these things (factory or home made) is that they have
to be played right.  There are certain stylistic things that a trumpet player
does that a violin player does not.  Also, there are different ways of playing
a single instrument that will make it sound different.  Bluegrass fiddle
playing just does not sound like Beethoven fiddle playing - and they are
the same instrument.  A patch is only going to work for one style.

If we knew the weights of the coefficients Yamaha uses (seems they are not
exactly linear) we could computationaly derive the settings so that an FM
synth would recreate as closely as possible a given spectrum.

Hmm, maybe it is time to get a sound digitizer with spectrum analysis.
These can be had for around $150 I think.

See we record a bunch of sounds from an FM synth.  Then we play the tape
back into the digitizer and generate a frequency plot.  Knowing the
fundamentals of FM synthesis, we compare these plots with the coefficients
in the patches.  "By inspection" we derive the relationships.  (I am assuming
that it will be easy to spot the characteristic pattern of carrier and
sidebands in the plots.)

    That's why I tend to go with different technologies.  FM is good
    for brass and bells.  PD is good for organs, pipes, and effects.
    Sampling is good for percussion (drum machine), strings and misc.
    My next target will be LA for ambient sounds and such.  This is
    also why I shy away from the all-in-one boxes and prefer a modular
    system, aside from easier upgrade capabilities and more buttons
    and knobs to tweek.
    
    Steve

RE: .8 (care to share those patches with us?)

    Sure.  Copy DYO780::DBC0:[SCHAFER.PUBLIC.DX7.DX7_A]*.BLK
                                                .DX7_B]*.BLK
                                                .DX7_C]*.BLK
                                                .USENET]*.BLK
                                                .UKPATCH]*.BLK

    You'll find directory listings of all banks in [.PUBLIC.DX7] named the
    same as the subdirs (eg, USENET.LIS).

    New patches will be coming online periodically.  Specifically, new DX7,
    DX11/TX81z, and ESQ/SQ80 patches coming soon.

    And pardon my digression.

-b

    I find that the factory presets are fine, as long as you need that
    specific sound. Since HOTness is a relative concept, and I play
    all sorts of different music (Cole Porter, Steely Dan, Lynard Skynard,
    etc), I find that the patches that stink for one style of music,
    are perfect for another. I use around 75% of the 128 patchs in my
    MT-32, and Yes, I have Chickens, Pigs and Helecoptors on my CZ-101
    (and am looking for more effects type sounds all of the time). I
    guess it's all in what you plan to do. A friend of mine with a Mirage
    Rack mount has a 3 stooges sample set, that's actually quite
    interesting. I'm bizzare enough to use anything that sounds worthwhile
    to me. I even use 1/2 of the CZ-101 presets frequently (I have a
    plug in 64 sound RAM card for the CZ, with 16 animals, and 16 things,
    leaving the last 32 for instruments).
    
    Jens_who_uses_the_sound_of_landing_jets_while_playing_BACK_IN_THE_USSR
    _and_chickens_for_ROCKY_TOP_and_bombs_dropping_for_JOHNNY_B_GOODE_just
    _to_mention_a few

    RE .10      O.K. I copied the patches to my area now what do I
    with them?   How do I make them resemble patches instead of garbage
    on the screen?                 
    				Missing something.... Scott.

    
    I think Mitch's reply only serves to make the point.  The real idea
    of having gobs of patches in ROM is to allow the non-programmer
    to just go play.  However, this requires one thing...that the patches
    be good enough to play.
    
    By comparison with the FB-01, last fall I auditioned a Sequential
    MAX which is an analog machine with 80 presets and 20 volatile RAM
    locations loadable only by computer (in fact only by a C-64 running
    the Sequential patch editor).  I passed on it at the time for reasons
    relating more to its puny on-board sequencer (500 notes, totally
    volatile) but I was quite impressed with the patches.  A few were
    kind of duff sounding but the hits for me were greater than the
    misses.  
    
    Maybe it's a US programmer vs. Japanese programmer issue?  I remember
    how quite a few TZ owners were excited about the wind controller
    demo record because of the patches which most agreed were a distinct
    improvement on the factory set.  
    
    One has to expect that "hot" patches go out of style (heard any
    "Lucky Man" Moog leads lately?) but classic sounds like pianos,
    organs, strings, flutes, etc. are going to be in demand for a long
    time to come, it seems only sensible to try to do a good job at
    it.
    

RE: .12 (how do I read the patches?)

    They are SYSEX dumps.  They are not meant to be read by people. They
    get dumped to a DX7/TX7/mumble machine via a SYSEX dump utility that
    runs on a MIDIed computer.  If you don't have a computer, you're
    out of luck.

-b

    Blue grass fiddle and classical violin are not the same instrument.
    Bluegrass setup is with a flatter bridge and metal strings;
    the classical player has a rounder bridge and gut except the E.
    Tom

>I kind of like the strings on my Fb01.  At least the sound of the bow hitting
>the strings is good.  Someone here at work who plays the violin thought
>it was pretty good.  The trumpet is pretty lousy.

I agree.  The FM solo violin sounds great.  It's the string ensembles that
sound awful.  They supposedly sound good when MIDIed to an analog string
ensemble though.

When is a top manufacturer going to hook up with a top studio programmer
and sell us some decent aftermarket patches?  Why do we buy machines with
lame presets?  Very similar to buying the PC with the best hardware and
no software...

Todd.

    
    re: .*
    
      Well, I have mixed feelings about factory patches. They're great
    for the first four or five days while you get used to the instrument.
    After that, well, I can deal with only so many windstorms, aliens
    landing and helicopters... 
    
      My Polysix hasn't seen a factory patch since the first week I
    got it, five years ago. The ESQ-1, however, still has about half
    of it's factory patches, although I'm steadily replacing them. At
    least they're better than having nothing at all, or worse, the same
    thing repeated over and over. 
    
      I strongly feel that different technologies are good for different
    parts of your total sound. It seems that each technology has a
    distinctive sound to it, which is quite recognizable to the trained
    ear. Actually I think that even particular products and patches
    are recognizable if you listen to them enough.
    
      /pjh

    The only problem I have with factory patches is that sometimes they
    just become too familiar.  I only have this problem with patches
    that aren't emulation type patches (piano, string, organ, etc.).
    
    For example, there were at least 5 tunes on Commusic IV that made
    heavy use of the ESQ-1 DIGPNO patch which comes with the unit.
    The FM equivalent might be the DX Rhodes patch.
    
    One idea I'm trying to implement to prevent "oh, I know that patch"
    reaction when people listen to my stuff is to ALWAYS try to layer
    patches, especially patches from different machines.  Layered patches
    not only sound great, but also do not sound "familiar".  And I find 
    the experiments I make to determine what patches to layer a lot of
    fun.   In fact, I even seem to be evolving a science of patch layering
    out of that.  I might write about that some day.
    
    	db

    This is something that I've been experimenting with quite a bit. Some
    patches combinations layer quite nicely - others grate like fingernails
    down a chalkboard.

    I don't want to digress (maybe we should start a new topic), but I
    think patch combinations might be a good topic to discuss.

    BTW - I find that DIGPNO layers *very* well with an analog string pad.
    Main constraint is that string pad must be fat, as DIGPNO has quite a
    bit of substance to it.

-b

    Yeah, DIGPNO is one of my favorite layering patches.  It's especially
    good for the initial attack portion of a sound.
    
    	db

    Re: familiar patches.
    
    I wholly agree.  I cringe every time I hear Keith Emerson play that
    stupid ``Digital Native Dance'' patch on the ``3'' album.  It's
    a fine sound, but in the context of one of my favorite artists,
    I just wanna barf.
    
    Factory patches are good for figuring out how to perform a particular
    tweek.  For example, I think that the DX7 factory patches are all
    throw-away (I can't stand any of them) but they do provide a wide
    spectrum of sonic effects from which the programmer may learn.
    
    Apropos of DX7 strings, funny thing, Tony Banks, in an old Keyboard
    interview, claimed that the DX strings were TOO close to the real
    thing, and that he liked his Prophet for strings because it had
    more of a syntho sound.  This is an extreme statement, but I have
    heard some excellent DX string patches,  from syntho to natural.
    
    Steph