Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
      
       One which you have not mentioned is Dr. T's Keyboard Controlled
    Sequencer. I am using that one, if only because it came with my
    computer when I bought it. Actually, it's not a bad program at all,
    although it can be rather cryptic at times.
    
       It has 48 MIDI tracks, can 'do' 16 channels. I don't know about
    separate MIDI outs (this is an ST topic, right? STs only have ONE
    MIDI out)... It knows 12 types of MIDI events in the Track mode,
    and you can combine tracks into "sequences" which are essentially
    compartmentalized mixdowns of tracks. You may then string sequences
    together into songs. I haven't gotten much past track mode, which
    is set up like a very fast-acting tape recorder. It does cueing,
    punch-in-and-out, and a raft of other things, like it can 'mass
    change' parameters such as MIDI channel for a track, auto-limiting
    of velocity, volume and controller info, and it can quantize incoming
    data or auto-correct it later.
    
      The ST version is rather sophisticated, more so I understand than
    the Commodore and Apple II-e versions. I haven't seen those however,
    so I don't really know this for sure.
    
      It integrates with other Dr. T software. I seriously doubt it
    integrates with anything else but what else is new...
    
    /pjh

    Something else that should be mentioned about KCS is that while
    it doesn't have graphical editing, it costs about half as much,
    $200 as opposed to $400. It lets you do just about everything, although
    fiddling with numbers can be somewhat cryptical. I've been using
    it for a while now, and I'm pretty pleased. I'm waiting for a sequencer
    package that far and away takes the performance prize before I splurge.
    The other ones mentioned have nice graphics, but tend to have less
    flexibility. The ease of use with KCS is not the best, so what I'm
    waiting for is a sequencer that has the power of KCS ( which I believe
    to be the most powerful, although somewhat raw ), yet is easier
    to use and switch between setups. I haven't found anything thus
    far that has made me want to give up KCS.
    
    						John.

    I've been going thru this same hassle for about the last year or so. 

    Although I have never seen any of these units work, I have talked to
    lots of people and have heard lots of comments from users of all the
    packages mentioned so far.  The general concensus among dealers is that
    the Hybrid Arts stuff is the most popular software.  But the one
    sequencer that everyone seems to forget about is Passport's Master
    Tracks Pro - and I think it's a very good piece of code.  More on that
    later. 

    You should define what it is that you need.  Here are the issues that I
    narrowed the decision down to: 

     o	Is tape sync (SMPTE or FSK) required?
     o	Will tape sync be required in the future?
     o	Do you really need to drive 64 MIDI channels?
     o	How many SGUs (sound generation units - aka synths) do you have?
     o	How many SGUs do you intend to have in the next 2 years?
     o	How much are you willing to spend?
     o	Do you prefer graphic editing and mouse movement as opposed to
	 (computer) keyboard control?
     o	What are the chances of you changing MIDI computers (ie upgrading
	 to a MAC) in the next 2 years?
     o	Will this system be a studio system, a live system, or both?
     o	Are there features that are absolutely required (SYSEX dumps,
	 etc.)?

    What do I recommend?

    Well, after going thru this list, I decided on Master Tracks Pro.  It
    provides 64 tracks x 16 MIDI channels, SYSEX capability, supports MIDI
    song position pointer and MIDI files format.  It possibly has the best
    visual interface of any unit on the market, which was a biggie for me. 

    The only thing that it does not currently support is real-time
    recording of SYSEX data.  I'm not referring to patch dumps, but rather
    real-time "patch tweaking".  For example, changing envelope parameters
    in the middle of a patch.  I do not find this limiting.

    BTW - I have 6 SGUs (soon to be 9) and still do not require more than
    16 MIDI channels, so the ability to drive mega-modules is not an issue
    with me (yet!). 

    It also runs on various machines and supports MIDI files, so I am not
    limited to the ST if I ever decide to upgrade my computer. 

    For what it's worth ...

-b

	The ST  has  just  one  MIDI  out  but  you can get extra
	hardware  from  Hybrid arts and C-Lab that expands the ST
	to 4 MIDI outs and 2 MIDI ins.

	The  price  of all these sequences is around �200~ in the
	U.K.   There are more expensive version of these packages
	but  they  give you things like SMPTE timing or Tape Sych
	timing.

	I'll take a look at KCS, thanks for the tip.

			BArry

    Morgan at East Coast Sound will (and I quote) "beat any software price
    in the country".  The phone number is 203-748-2799.

-b

    C-labs Creator was reviewed in a recent issue of Music Technology.
    They gave it high marks in general, but especially in the performance
    department.
    
    
    

    If you haven't decided yet....
    
    
    I use Dr. T's KCS, and have compared it to lots of other
    software out there.  Some things to consider;
    
    OK, at first working with endless lists of numbers is incomprehensable,
     but once you get the hang of it, KCS affords you limitless
    editing capabilities!.  If you compose serious music, you'll find
    the editing power of KCS to be seemingly limitless.  And again,
    once you know your way around the program, it's not difficult at
    all, and it's extremely fast!
    
    Further, Dr T's KCS 1.6 (or Level II), has an MPE shell, which allows
    you to run KCS and, say, one of the patch editors simultaneously!
    This feature really helps if you get halfway through a composition
    and find out that you need to save everything, then quit the program,
    just to call up that killer synth patch for your CZ-101.  Also,
    Dr T's Copyist will convert KCS files (or Steinberg files if you
    get v1.51) to score form.  This means that you can print your music,
    as well as individual parts, and have it performed by musicians!
    
    Finally, Dr T's offers great support for it's users, they're always
    releasing updates that you can upgrade to for a small fee, and Dr
    T's KCS is very widely used.  You'll be more likely to meet other
    KCS users, to swap tips and sequences with, than you would with
    one of the lesser known patches.  
    
    Hope I've been of some help....
    
    Best o' luck deciding!
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

It's been a few years since this note was updated. I am now going 
through this same struggle. Any recommendations from Atari ST users 
out there?

I read the review in Electronic Musician that compared a number of 
popular Atari packages. Now, I'm looking for advice on some of you 
out there who have actually used the stuff.

Thanks in advance,

-Dan

    
    	Dan,
    
    		I use (partially - I haven't yet been able to fully
    	exploit it's capabilities  :^)  Dr. T's  KCS v3.0  for the
    	kind of midi/audio recording I do - I find it more than able
    	to satisfy my needs.  May not be too helpfull, but I think
    	it'll really depend on what your wants/needs/requirements are...
    
    						Rich
    

re -2

I use a VFX-SD for about 99% of my sequencing.  I sometimes
have a need for graphic editing and use EDIT TRACK II on the Atari ST.
I bought it  because it was cheap.  I got it for about $60.00 from
E. Aurther Brown.  

It has 60 tracks. These 60 tracks can be arranged
into patterns etc...  You can record on all midi data onto one track
and split it to other tracks later.  With another piece of hardware
you can output 32 midi channels.  

With a little more cash you can get SMPTE TRACK whic is the
same thing but allows you to sync to SMPTE using an external piece of hardware.
It has a lot of editing features.  Graphic editing is handy.

They just came out with an upgrade to these sequencers called
EDIT TRACK GOLD.  It has better graphic editing etc.

There is a second package called EZ-SCORE + which will allow
you to score music sequenced with EDIT TRACK.

I am not sure how this compares to other sequences as I have not seen any
others.  This one works and is cheap.

These program are produced by Hybrid Arts.  I will post their address
in here tomorrow.

				Mark

	For high end I liked Notator (and Creator) quite a lot.

	On the Mac I have played with Cubase.  The Atari Cubase is
	a more advanced version.  I like this program a lot.
	It is also a high end one..

	Chad

    There is a PD 32-track sequencer from Switzerland callled Alchimie, Jr.
    I think there is a note on it in here.  
    
    Advantages: free! 
    
    Disadvantages: some users have talked about weird bugs, no hooks to
    other programs (librarians, notation, etc.) and there is no support.
    
    It does allow both event and graphics editing, and imports/exports
    either type 0 or 1 MIDI files.  One thing it *won't* do is let you edit
    sys-ex messages.
    
    I use it in a similar application to Mr. Mosher, I do the bulk of my
    sequencing on my SQ-80's built-in sequencer, then download stuff to
    Alchimie for fine edits that are impossible to do on the SQ-80.  I have
    never actually tried to sequence a piece start to finish using it.
    
    Oh yeah, one other advantage: you can try it out at home for as long as
    you like for no $$$ vs. having to decide to plunk down big bux after a
    30 minute demo in a store.
    
    							Brian
    
    

	I've been using Dr. T's for a number of years now (didn't I write a
	previous topic here once?). 

	I'm now running KCS 4.0 (Omega) Level II, along with Copyist, Quickscore,
	Tiger, Song Editor, Fingers, Tunesmith, and a bunch of MPE utilities
	that I have come across. (oh, and ESQapade and SampleMaker)...

	All of these programs (except Samplemaker) run in the same environment,
	i.e. if you load a sequence in KCS, you can load any or all of the other
	programs and they all work on the same sequence in memory. MPE 
	(multi-program-environment) is basically a relocatable overlay
	environment, so one may load ancillary programs in any arbitrary order
	and switch from program to program. 

	Some of the things that this environment does include:

	- 48 track sequence track mode (but this is deceptive, since you
	  can overlay up to 99 48-track sequences if you really wanted to
	  using the Song Editor)

	- 99 sequence Open Mode for "mixed" sequences
	- Song Editor for graphically assembling songs

	- Variations Generator for summing/ORing/XORing algorithmic patterns
	  as variations to any aspect of your MIDI streams
	- QuickScore does fairly quick transcriptions with no frills
	- Copyist does full transcription/editing ("note processing"),
	  outputs TIFF,PostScript,etc.
	- Tiger is a graphic editor not unlike a piano roll display, again,
	  you can change note characteristics by point 'n grunt
	- Fingers is a strange little program for making cyclic overlaid
	  patterns of notes and controllers
	- Tunesmith is an algorithmic composition program which generates
	  streams of sequences back to KCS
	- ESQapade is a patch editor/librarian for ESQ-1, SampleMaker is
	  a sample editor and FM synthesis package for any sampler that
	  understands Sample Dump Standard

	- there is also a thing called Phantom which does SMPTE striping and
	  gives you two MIDI ports. I haven't got that since I went the FSK
	  route a while ago.

	There is a immense amount of functionality in this environment. It
	definitely requires a mature hardware configuration (hard disk,
	lots of memory, monochrome monitor). I'm running it on a Mega-4
	since I completely outgrew my 1040ST. 

	Definitely NOT free. Not copy protected anymore, though. I'd say
	that the above software investment was probably about $1k over
	about 3 years. 

	/pjh

Thanks for all of the comments! It's been very informative.

Is there a place where one can go to see demos of these packages side 
by side?

Once again, this notes file is proving to be a valuable resource!

-Dan

    	I second the strong reccomendation for KCS 4.0 in .13.  The MPE
    environment is very nice.  I also use Dr T's XOR in my setup and its
    real nice to be able to pop between sequencer(s) and librarian with a
    few key clicks.  It does take at least 2MB of memory to be able to load
    more than 2 of the Dr T's programs at once.  You can add memory to an
    old 1040ST, but I found it to be not much mor expensive to just buy an
    STE which uses $50 SIMMs for memory upgrades.  (Doesn't anyone want my
    old 1040ST?????)
    
    Brian
    

    It may be of interest to noters that Passport Designs (remember
    MasterTracks Pro?) is NOT continuing development of MTP for the Atari.
    Given that I'm a somewhat disgruntled owner of MTP, that doesn't make
    me too happy.
    
    In short, don't bother looking at MTP without talking directly to
    Passport about support.  This info is good as of 2 months ago.
    
+b