Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Pick up a used CZ-101.  It satisfies all of your requirements (but
    admittedly, none of the "it would be nice if").  You should be able
    to get one pretty cheap, and you get a halfway decent synth as a
    side effect.
    
    len.
     

	Last summer when I visited N.Y.C, I saw Sam Ash having an unbelievable
sale on a lot of Casio stuff.  One of the items was an AZ-1 - Casio's 'sling-on'
controller.  I believe you will find it to have 49 velocity-sensitive keys, 
pitch bend, modulation wheel, patch change control, etc (i.e., well over what 
you were asking for).

	The price: $249.

	Other low-priced alternatives:  Korg Poly-800, Yamaha and Suzuki put
out a number of 'home-oriented' keyboards that transmit MIDI info...

	If the sound quality of the unit itself is not important to you, you
should be able to buy something new that will fit the bill for less than $300.

	Dan

    re .2
    
    I saw EUW in Boston dumping their AZ-1's for in the vicinity of
    $250. You might check if they're still around. I drove a K3m (I
    think that's what they're called) with it, and had a grand old
    time trying to get used to playing a keyboard when held like a
    guitar.
    
    dp

    I saw w Yword remote-looking keyboard with something like 32 voices
    and MIDI out at Sears.  I think the number was SH-101.
    
    Cost:  $149

    The SH-101 is a Roland product.  Musta been somethin' else if it
    was really a Y-thing.
    
    (The SH-101 was Roland's monophonic "wear it like a guitar" synth.)
    
    len.
    

    Just out of curiosity, what music software are you using to convert
    your input to score? How many bars per line, staves per page, etc.?
    Do you like it?
    
    I'm using Jim Miller's Personal Composer on a Compaq (IBM compatible)
    and like it except that it will only convert so that there are 2
    measures on a line. I use the mouse all the time because it's the only
    way I can input the notes to format it the way I want without having
    to use keystroke macros, and moving notes around.
    
    A standard 4 bars per line would be fine, but 2? I've put in my
    2 cents to have this changed for a future version.
                         
    It's a powerful piece of software, with many great features, but the
    2 bars per line "feature" should have been set up to be either flexible
    or have a default to a more realistic number, like 4.
    
    Bill

re 1345.6
I am using ConcertWare+MIDI as my editor/sequencer.  See comments elsewhere
on what it can do.  As many bars per line as will fit.  As many staves per
page as will fit.

The Y-word thing must be the SHS-100 (or is it SHS-200, or are there two things
like this).  I saw a brief mention of the SHS-200 in a recent NAMM report in
Keyboard or some such place, but it didn't give any details.  Sears and
Lechmere would probably have the kind of thing I am looking for.  Looks kind of
ugly to have laying on a tabletop, though.

My sound generator is a lowly Fb01, so buying a keyboard that costs more than
it did would be a little out of line.  My main instrument interests are
primarily plucked, struck, or bowed strings, and FM seems to do a good job for
these.  My original choice was between a CZ-101 and the Fb01.  The Fb01 won out
on sound flexibility.  As you can tell from my choice of equipment and
software, I am trying to keep this a low expense hobby.  On the other hand, you
know what a good mandolin costs these days?) 

    I have an AZ-1  and highly recommend it.
    
    Most of the other options youve heard DONT have full-size
    standard keys.
    
    AZ has 3 oct. with a switch for up or down one octave
    sends program change from switches, Bank and patch # LED readout
    has midi send channel select A,B or A+B (nice)
    has pitch-bend and vib. wheels
    has 1 assignable wheel, 2 assignable switches
    portamento and sustain switches.....
    
	I think I payed $250 or so mail order 2 years ago.
     CHECK J and R Music or some of the other high volume Casio
    dealers....it may be less expensive than the locals....
    
    ron
    

I was by Darrell's Music in Nashua today.  They carry Yamaha, but only the
home stuff. Apparantly the SHS-200 counts as "pro".  They did have a thing
that looked like the SHS-200's little brother, called the SHS-10.  About
2.5 octave, small keys, MIDI out (no IN), built in speaker, sounds, the
usual rhythm accompaniment features you find in the low-end stuff.  They
wanted $200 for it.  No velocity sensing, but it did have a bender wheel.
Felt cheap.

    I got one of these maybe six months ago. I leave it hanging around,
    that is, I don't use it much. It's cute. Puny keys. Auto rhythm.
    25 sounds. 25 rhythms. Midi out. Kick in $20 for a wall bug. I've
    had some fun with it. Cost me about $175. I've plugged it in to
    the computer a few times for kicks.
    
    						John.

    My keyboard player bought a Yamaha SHS-10 & loves it. He straps
    it on & then dives into quick solo's as needed. He's also patched
    into MIDI channel 8 on my MT-32 (all selections an levels set by
    a sequencer). The small keys took some getting used to, but He paid
    $139.00 for it & We thought it was a good deal for the price. It
    has a reasonable drum machine built in & some good patterns (I've
    ported some of them over to my sequencer, which in turn gets used
    by my MT-32) each part comes out of a different MIDI channel & you
    can set the main instrument output to any MIDI channel.  It works
    pretty well. If you are not particular about the size of the keys,
    this is a pretty neat little keyboard.
    
    						Jens

I am new to this notes file, so if there is a better note on this
subject,  please refer me to it.

I am interested in a cheap keyboard (by the apparent standards in this
notes file).  I would like (but do not absolutely require) the MIDI
interface, primarily to tie up to some future computer so that I can
generate sheet music from what I play.

My price range is preferably under $300, although I might stretch a bit
if there is really a good deal. 

I *am* interested in the sound and I have been disappointed by the Yamaha
home-oriented keyboards.  For example, PSR32 or PSR36 seem to have the
same fake sounding voices as the $100 toys.  

I need full sized keys and would like as many as possible (e.g., 60+).

I play complicated chords, so 10 or more polyphonic capability is a
must. The 8-tone polyphonic keyboard I tried this summer was
frustrating.

I need at least one good organ (pipe or electric), one good piano, one
harpsichord/clavichord, and perhaps a brass voice.  (Having many more
would be good fun).

Built in amp and speakers is desired, but if some other deal where I
used an external set was cost competitive, that'd be fine too. 

Some rhythm capability would be fun (especially for my kids) but not
necessary.  

I intend to take the thing to the Cape for vacations (and to help in
arranging music).  It's hard to cart my upright piano down there. 

I have not looked much so far but this is what I have found in the
$300 (plus or minus) range:

The Yamaha PSR32 (or PSR36 on sale at Service Merchandise this week for
$279) are both under $300 but apparently do not have MIDI interfaces.
And they suffer from those fake voices.  The rhythm part seems nice. 
And they have the 61 full sized keys. 

The Casiotone CT640 is a 10 poly, 30 voice MIDI keyboard with 61 full
sized keys. The voices are a lot better than the Yamaha, but I had a
hard time getting the rhythms to work as easily as the Yamaha.  Perhaps
I was doing something wrong.  The cost is $370.

The question is this: is this the field?  I stopped by Daddy's in Nashua 
and walked out after everything appeared to be over $700.   Other brands 
to consider?  I know I'd love the $1500 Korg, but it ain't in the cards. 

Thanks for any help.

Alex

RE < Note 1345.12 by ALEX::CONN "Alex Conn, ZKO" >

	I don't think you'll find what you want in the price range you are
limited to.  

	1)  I don't know of ANY keyboards on the low end market that have more
than 8 voice polyphony.  Not too long ago you were lucky to get 6.  Eight seems
to be the current standard.  The old DX7 had 16, which was a lot for its time,
but you won't find one for much less than $850.  Many of the newer units have
more than eight, but they're way out of your $300 price range.

	2)  Even finding a full size keyboard for $300, with midi is going to be
hard.  There's some midi keyboards that are good starter units like the DX100
and the Casio CZ101 or CZ1000, but two of these have mini keys, and the other
(the CZ1000) has full size keys, but only 49 of them.

	3)  Even the used market may be a bit hostile to $300.  I always 
recommend a beginner getting the Roland Juno 106.  But it's hard to find them
even today for less than $400 on the used market.  If you can go the remainding
$100, Derek Speed has one for sale in some note in this conference - it's a good
deal, I think, as it comes with a hardshell case.

	4)  If you want built-in speakers in the pro line of equipment (implied 
by your desire for better sounds), there's only a couple of alternatives - The
Roland HS-60 (which is a 6 note polyphonic Juno 106 with speakers built in - on 
sale at LaSalle's in Boston for $399) and the DX-27S (which would fit all your 
requirements except that it plays only 8 notes at a time).  That's about it in 
the pro lines.  I don't keep up with the home lines.

	Neither of these units have rythm capabilities.  In fact, except for a
growing trend toward music workstations, you won't find rhythm in ANY of the
pro lines, and especially not for $300.

	The bottom line, here, is that $300 won't get you much.  Sorry to sound
so pessimistic, but that's the plain truth.  For $400, you could get into a 
pretty decent startup synth, but you're going to have to lower your expectations 
quite a bit.

	Also - don't fall into the trap that a synth is a portable piano - they 
are DEFINITELY NOT!  I suffered through that syndrom for more than a year, until
I finally came to the conclusion that most of my piano-playing skills were NOT
transferrable to my synth.  You have to learn to play them differently.  Not 
only are the sounds different (unless you get a digital piano type - mucho $$),
but the feel is different.  You have to re-think how you play, even though the
keys look the same.

	Well, I hope this has helped.  Please feel free to ask any questions,
here or off-line.

	Dan

    Ditto on just about everything Dan said; there really isn't any
    such animal. 
         
    I'm afraid that what you want is going to go for around $900 on
    the used market, $1200 new, and will almost certainly NOT have 
    built-in speakers (add $100 or more for a wimpy amp; $250 is more
    reasonable).                                          
      
    Almost NO quality gear has built-in speakers; a speaker case big enough
    to make reasonable sound would make the keyboard almost the size of a
    console piano; check out how big a Peavey KB100 or KB300 amp/speaker
    is. Detaching the keyboard from the amp/speaker makes it more portable
    but still it's unweildy.  Can you use your stereo for amplification?
                                                          
    
    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the situation sounds hopeless.
    What are you willing to give up?  The sound quality?  The polyphony?
    The number of keys?  The keyboard action?  Built-in speakers ? 

	What are you willing to give?  A third mortgage?  Sell your wife?

				>;�D
--Mike

RE: .13, .14

I just stopped by Acton music and looked at a Casiotone CT630.  It was
on sale for $399, but I may be able to convince my wife to spring the
extra $100.  

It has the following:

1. MIDI in, out, and thru.

2. 80 voices, many of which sounded quite good, even piped through good
equipment (although my experience here is obviously limited.  I don't
play around with Korgs and the like).

3. A number of chord voices (I can't remember whether it was 20 or 40
but it was a *lot*).

4. 3 position split on chords, so that you could actually end up with a
double (2 manual in organ terms) keyboard.  With 61 keys, that's not
unreasonable.  

5.  I believe it was 10 tone polyphonic. 

6. Has a reasonable complement of rhythms.

7. Has a memory capability, although the guy could not remember how to
use it. 

8. Can add a sustain pedal.

I almost bought the thing on the spot.  However, being a bit more level
headed than that my question is this: am I missing something?  Are there 
some features that you noters would say "anybody would know you need that"
that I am missing?  Is this too good to be true or do I have low
standard (be kind)?  Should I pop back and buy it?

By the way, I am used to the different touch to different keyboards.  I
play organ of and on and that is *certainly* different from piano.  I
had no trouble adjusting as long as I realized it was not a piano.  

Another question.  The Casiotone CT640 (the latest in this range but
without some features I'd like) has a four position registration.  Is
this akin to organs where you can set a combination of voices?

Thanks for the input

Alex

>  I just stopped by Acton music and looked at a Casiotone CT630.  It was
>  on sale for $399, but I may be able to convince my wife to spring the
>  extra $100.  

Are you sure you haven't looked through Want-Ads or something?  Sometimes
these type of keyboards are very available and very cheap.  Of course you
want to make sure of the quality, but look to see what the resale prices are.

>  1. MIDI in, out, and thru.

That's pretty much expected, but good that you checked.

>  2. 80 voices, many of which sounded quite good, even piped through good
>  equipment (although my experience here is obviously limited.  I don't
>  play around with Korgs and the like).

In other words, the patches are presets.

>  3. A number of chord voices (I can't remember whether it was 20 or 40
>  but it was a *lot*).

Not quite sure what you mean.  Automatic chords?  Transposed?  7th's?

>  7. Has a memory capability, although the guy could not remember how to
>  use it. 

That's a good one.

> I almost bought the thing on the spot.  However, being a bit more level
> headed than that my question is this: am I missing something?  Are there 
> some features that you noters would say "anybody would know you need that"
> that I am missing?  Is this too good to be true or do I have low
> standard (be kind)?  Should I pop back and buy it?

Good move.  Even if we can't give you any more of an idea, it's good to sleep
on it a night!

--Mike

    small cheap keyboards <300 often are non-midi, so always check
    especiallyin the used market.
    where non-midi keys are constantly sold.
    or rather offered to sell.
    Tom

    I usually don't sleep on it; I go get a burger and a shake.  This
    generally gets me far enough away from the store that I can think
    clearly again...
    	
    	:-)
    
    	-Bill
    

    Alex:
    	Sounds like the CASIO has some nice features; have you looked
    at any of TECHNICS or YAMAHA low-mid price stuff?  NOT buying it
    on the spot was a GREAT idea.  An even better one would be to take
    back your wife or someone else whose opinion you trust.  Even if
    they don't know that much about music, it might be good to get some
    others to look at the machine as just that, a machine.  Before I
    bought what I bought, I was all set to spring for a TECHNICS All-in-1
    setup listing for $1500 or so.  BOY AM I GLAD I WENT BACK SEVERAL
    TIMES with friends to get other opinions/impressions.  Each time
    I went back I liked it a little less (the "newness" had worn off).
    True, what I ended up with cost me four times as much.  But in fact,
    I am still way ahead.  You see I would have ended up trading it
    in and getting a setup like I have now ANYWAY, and would have had
    to take a significant hit on the TECHNICS.
    
    Take your time,
    
    Bill Allen @MPO

RE: .20

Yes, I have looked at the Yamaha stuff and found nothing in the price
range that was at all good sounding (I really dislike their low end
voices).  The best model I looked at was the PSR32.  The PSR 36 looks to 
be the same with a few extra bells and whistles.

I did not know that Technics had anything in this price range.

There is no way I will spring for 4 times as much.  I am not in a band
and am already pushing the limits of reasonableness based on my real
"needs."

Yes, I'll want to bring my wife back and get more input from you folks.

RE: .17

No, I did not look at want ads, primarily because I believe that the
prices are going down.  Getting a MIDI keyboard for under $400 is
something you can do today but was not possible two years ago.

� In other words, the patches are presets.

I think I know what you mean but could you explain further.  I assume
that in this price range you would not expect to be able to program new
voices, right?

�>  3. A number of chord voices (I can't remember whether it was 20 or 40
�>  but it was a *lot*).

�Not quite sure what you mean.  Automatic chords?  Transposed?  7th's?

Simply that the left hand, chord or otherwise, can have a different
voice than the right hand.  There is an independent set of voices for
left hand.  The left hand can also be a chord and it can be mated with
the rhythm.  

�it's good to sleep on it a night!

I'll do that.  Thanks.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
One more question.  The CT630 appears to be in the process of being
replaced by the CT640.  The 640 is designed to be sold for less than the 
630.  In order to do that Casio (1) dropped the leds above the voices
(so you can't tell what voice you're using) and (2) eliminated the
multiple (choice of 3) split points between left and right hands.  Those 
are two features that I liked.  So I believe that the 630 (which is
marked down $100 compared to original retail) will not be available for
much longer and that its replacement may not suit my needs as well.
That's the only reason I feel a bit pressured to move soon rather than
wait to see what the fall brings.   Unless somebody can convince me that 
the four-position registration switch somehow gives me features that are 
more attractive than split points and leds.

More inputs?

Thanks,

Alex


Alex

    AC:
    	After you've checked it out again, offer your dealer $275 on
    the one being discontinued and see what he says.  (Walk out if you
    have to, it will probably be there in a week).
    
    Good Luck,
    
    Bill Allen

Alex,

Acton Music is one of our DECMS stores. Did you mention that you are from
the DECMS group? You should be able to get a discount, or at the very
least some "free" accessories. I would be happy to help you in this
regard. Talk to Ken Lecomte the owner of the store. He told me to send
our members to him first because he wants to make sure we get proper
service. If you would like me to add your name to the DECMS mailing
list, reply to SUBSYS::ORIN. Also, if you are interested in CASIO keys,
it is important to know that 47th St Photo has a new catalogue out
that has lots of CASIO keys. Also, check out the mailorder prices
before you buy. It is important to check the WantAdvertiser for used
prices too. Price awareness is the name of the game. If anyone else
is looking to buy anything, I will be happy to help you get the best
price. Please feel free to contact me. If I'm too busy at the time,
I'll point you in the right direction if I can. The shopping is half
the fun. Don't be too hasty. Try out as many different products as
you can stand, before the MIDIcraving gets too strong. Have you been
to Lechmere or into Boston to LaSalle, Daddy's, or E.U. Wurlitzer?

Stop, then Shop...

Dave Orin
SUBSYS::ORIN
DTN: 291-7094

Thanks for all of the information.

One question regarding CASIO.  From note 1523.1, it is clear that Casio
is not even mentioned for prices.  I myself was biased against Casio
until I saw the home equipment and compared it to Yamaha non pro.  Is
there going to be a problem because I might buy Casio rather than one of
the brands mentioned in 1523? I notice from an old Garden Camera catalog
that Casio had a line of pro looking equipment (CZ5000, etc.).  How's
that stuff considered?

By the way, somebody in the Modern Photography back pages was
advertising a Casio CT630 for $260 (Acton's price was $399)!  I believe
in supporting local stores, but for 50% more???  Any suggestions on how
to approach Ken Lecomte on the subject.  I am not a regular customer
there and would rather not wear out my welcome...  I'd buy from Lecomte
for $300 or even perhaps $325 but not $400 (assuming you people don't
convince me to buy some other gear!).

I've been to Daddy's in Nashua (sa no Casio stuff) but not Salem and to
Lechmere (no interesting stuff).  I have not been to LaSalle or E.U. 
Wurlitzer?  Does Steve's in Danvers carry home line stuff like Casio?

Alex

I would like to reactivate this topic to get some up to date information:

>If I wanted a keyboard purely as a data-entry device, how little money could
>I get away with spending?  Touch not a concern, nor ability to send program
>changes, splits, or anything else.  All it needs are:

>	3 octaves of keys or more.
>	Polyphonic (more than one key at a time).
>	Sends MIDI.

I do need full size keys in addition.

My situation is this: I am a musician playing mainly flute and teaching my
two boys flugelhorn and percussion.  I also play piano and can't play well
(at all ?) on non standard keys.  I play in the local band.

In the band I often get handwritten music or music needing transposing.  I
wish to be able to produce good quality sheet music from this and also to 
rescore music so I can play with my kids.  

I bought MusicWRITER� which gives me the quality I want but is a bear to input
the music with by hand.  I am running the Macintosh version on an Atari
using the SPECTRE Macintosh emulator.

I'd like to get a keyboard to enter the parts one instrument at a time.  My
program can do the rest.  I don't intend to play it back (except to hear that I
entered it correctly maybe) but one day my kids might like that functionality.

There is a problem which I will also crosspost in ATARI and MAC files which is
that SPECTRE expects to use the serial port with an external MIDI box.  I 
really hate to buy one since our ATARI has a perfectly good internal MIDI but...
is there a way around this?

Thanks for your help.

Cheryl

    
    If you don't need velocity data, you have a lot of possibilities. 
    You're requirement for full size keys raises the price a bit, though. 
    
    Roland makes two keyboards that meet your specifications: the PC-100
    has 49 keys, sends only note-on & note-off messages, and probably sells
    for a little over $200.  The PC-200 adds touch-sensitivity.
    
    Alternatively, you could buy a used CASIO something with smaller keys,
    and just slow the tempo down while you're recording...
    

It is superb and a lot of fun.  I have hardly had a chance to touch it because
the kids are using it all the time.

One point however.  If you are using an Atari with the MAC emulator SPECTRE as
I am, you cannot connect it through an external midi box through the RD232
as has been suggested.  The MAC actually has an RS432 behiong the 232 port
which, of course, the Atari does not.  So, now I have MusicWRITER for the
MAC for sale with an external Midi which I throw in for free.  We'll get it
to you anywhere in the world :-)

The midi is neat through the Atari midi port though.  I'll now have to get 
Notator.

Cheryl