Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    hmmmm.... no THRU on the ESQ-1??? Seems odd. Does it have a "merge"
    capability where the THRU and OUT data appear atthe same port?
    For such a hot machine that seems like quite an oversight....
    
    Does the Atari have the capability of echoing the data present
    at the IN port to the OUT port?
    
    Will The Octopad merge IN and THRU data to the OUT port? If not,
    you'll need a merging device in order to take advantage of 2
    controllers.
    
              
    Edd
    

    Actually, we have discussed this (remember Edd?).  Can't remember
    the exact note but it's fairly recent.
    
    You are sorta outa luck.  If you have two pieces of equipment that
    must go into the sequence (controller) and receive output
    from the sequencer, there's no way you can arrange the MIDI cables 
    that doesn't create a MIDI loop (which I believe is why everything 
    got merged (the HR-16 probably did that).
    
    You will have to switch the MIDI cable going into ATARI OUT whenever
    you want to switch between programming drums and programming keys.
    
    I think this is your best bet:
    
    Playback network
    ----------------
    Atari OUT --> in EPS thru --> in MIDIbass --> in HR-16
    
    
    Recording network
    -----------------
    
    Octapad out --> in Atari
    
    EPS out     --> in Atari
    
    
    Note you need at least one switch in this for Atari IN.
    
    I am also presuming that your Atari can pass things through for
    programming the drums.  If not it gets much worse:
    
    Octapad out --> in HR-16  --> IN Atari
    
    Note that you now need another switch for the HR-16 IN.
    
    A few suggestions:
    
    1) Very low cost - just switch the plugs when you go from sequencing
       drums to sequencing keys.
    
    2) Very low cost - I'm presuming that you are recording your
       drums into the Atari, rather than using the HR's sequencer
       by itself.  If you used the HR's sequencer, you wouldn't
       have to do any of this.
    
    3) Low cost - Daddy's junky music is selling a 2 input 4 (?) output
       for something like $79.  4 outputs is lpenty, 2 inputs may not
       be enough.
       2 inputs may not be.
    4) Higher cost, but very elegant solution - Someone (Digital Music
       Systems??) is selling an all electronic MIDI patch panel called the 
       MX-8 which can be had for about $325 (I found this out from 
       Wockin Juan).
    
       This thing has 6 inputs, 8 outputs and has almost every frill
       imaginable including merge, filtering, MIDI echo, keyboard split,
       almost anything that CAN be done via software is there.
    
       Most important, it remembers something like 50 configurations.
    
       If your planning on growing your system much more, you might as
       well bite the bullet and get one of these soon.  There's a full
       page ad for it in a recent issue of Keyboard magazine (I think
       the Thomas Dolby issue had it).
    
       Oh, and by the way, YES, it is a rack mounted unit.
    
    Hope this was understandable.  I've had to type it in a tremendous
    hurry.
    
    	db

    > hmmmm.... no THRU on the ESQ-1??? Seems odd. Does it have a "merge"
    > capability where the THRU and OUT data appear atthe same port?
    > For such a hot machine that seems like quite an oversight....
    
    Agreed (in spades).
    
    Also, y'know that long section in the back of the manual about using
    the ESQ-1 as a system controller?  Sounds wonderful right?
    Well, they conveniently chose to ignore one not-so-minor gotcha: 
    You can't do that unless you solve this problem, OR are willing 
    to use the ESQ-1 as the sole keyboard controlller.
    
    Oh yeah, the MX-8 *seems* to be able to do the same kind of system
    configuration controller stuff that the KX-88 and the ESQ does.
    (A configuration can be programmed to send program changes).
    
    Sounds like a pretty hot box.  Wish Wockin' Wuan would weview it.
    
    	db

    Agreed.
    
    Bite the bullet and buy the box.
    
    In order to have constant use of two controllers (EPS and 8pad)
    you'll need a merging device.
    
    Edd (who_with_7_MIDI_devices_operating_11_channels_is_AMAZED_at
         the_simplicity_of_his_network)

    Y'know this is really a pervasive problem with MIDI and I was somewhat
    astonished that it hadn't been brought up until now.
    
    	db

        What I do...
    
                    Mirage Out             (master, local OFF)
                        |
                        V
                     HR-16 IN              (master clock, NO transmitting 
                     HR-16 OUT              MIDI notes, merge OUT and
                        |                   THRU)
                        V
                      QX-21 IN             (slave, echo IN to OUT)
                      QX-21 OUT
                        |
                        V
                      RX-21 IN              (slave, merge THRU to OUT)
                      RX-21 OUT
                        |
                        V
                      MKS-30 IN
                      MKS-30 THRU
                        |
                        V
                      TX81Z IN
                      TX81Z THRU
                        |
                        V
                      DX21 IN
                      DX21 THRU
                        |
                        V
                      Mirage IN
    
    To play ANY instrument on the network, I simply set the Mirage to
    transmit on the appropriate MIDI channel. (I never waste memory
    by putting drum data in the sequencer, though I could. I simply
    program the drums on their internal sequencers. Since everything
    is listening to the same clock.... no biggie).
                                                                 
    Playing the Mirage causes quite the trip. Since it is set to LOCAL
    OFF, data leaves the MIDI OUT port, takes a journey through the
    entire network and then comes back via MIDI IN where it finally
    gets to produce a sound.
    
    ...is all quite simple, really!
    
    Edd
                                            

    
    re: .2
    
       As I suspected. can be cured with my tax refund when it comes
    in, or maybe sooner if the EPS memory upgrade is delayed longer.
    
    Re: Edd
    
       Looks rather simple. However, the Atari has about 1 meg memory
    and decent-sized sequences take next to nothing so I'll try keeping
    the drums in the sequencer for now... but your configuration looks
    pretty simple.
    
    Re: Dave
    
       So what's your configuration?  Somewhat like Edd's? Is it
    relatively simple?
    
    /pjh
    
    

	Not that anybody asked, but...

	What I do to solve this problem is I made a coupla midi switching boxes
using DPDT toggle switches.  MIDI only uses pins 4 and 5 (pin 2 for ground, but 
doesn't require connection in spec).  Works wunnufully.

			|
			|
		+---------------+
		|               |
	--------|  (2)< o >(3)  |--------
		|    (switch)   |
		+---------------+

	It can be used either to send data from one of two controllers to a
single slave, or it can split data from one controller to either of two slaves.
Cost: about $7.00 for three midi jacks, DPDT switch, project box, wire and 
solder.

	Dan

    Edd's network is simple.  That's because only the Mirage is the only
    OUT that has to go into the IN of the sequencer.  In effect, he
    doesn't have the problem that you and I have because of the way
    he does things (intelligently ;-))
    
    I think I may stop storing the drum patterns in the ESQ-1 sequencer.
    The more and more I think about it the less benefit it seems to
    offer.
    
    My network has several configurations: mainly "sequencing" and
    "performing".  In the sequencing network, the ESQ-1 must be able
    to record from the keyboard and drums, and play all the instruments.
    
    In the performing configuration, the RD-300 controls everything.
    
    SEQUENCING
    
    HR-16 OUT ---->
    		     IN ESQ-1 OUT ---> MT-32 --> Reverb --> RD-300 --> HR
    RD-300 OUT --->
    
    		The HR is set to "no merge"
    
    PERFORMING
    
    RD-300 OUT --> MT-32 --> ESQ-1
    
    However if I was to get an MX-8, I'd probably have something like
    this for performing:
    
    MX PERFORMING
    
    RD-300 OUT  ----+
    		     \  merged
    		      >----------> MT-32 ---> etc.
    		     /
    ESQ-1 OUT   ----+
    
    The main point of this is that I could use the ESQ-1 as a system
    controller, while still using the RD's keyboard.
    
    Right now, as you can see, I don't have very many MIDI things and
    so an MX-8 seems like overkill, especially since I don't use the
    MT-32 much.  But:
    
    	1) I'm planning to get more (who isn't)
    
    	2) Having the MX-8 will take me closer to the "unified box"
    	   design that I envision where my rack has only about 3
           cords going in or out.
    
    	db

    The only change I'd make to my network is the addition of a merge
    box between the Mirage and the HR-16. This would allow me to also
    use the DX as a master.
    
    The topology stays the same whether I'm sequencing or performing.
    In a performance situation I'd either (a) not start the clock
    or better yet (b) not even include any clock devices (drums, QX).
    
    Storing drum patterns in a sequencer is a good idea if (a) you
    have full event editing capabilities (I don't) and you have the
    memory to support TONS of events. I can fit Mozart's K.303 (a
    pretty long sonata) in my QX, but I can't fit a 3.5 minute pop
    song with len_fehskens_programmed drums. Too many notes!!
    A *simple* 4/4 pattern will eat up 14 notes per measure.
    
    Edd

I got around having to buy another box by changing the THRU to an OUT on
my QX5.  Means I had to get into the box, but it was no big deal (detailed
in another note somewhere).  My set-up is:

						Right now, I'm using the S-10
			S-10			as the main controller.  I 
						can use the CZ-101 with a
			|			cable swap.  And, I use the
			v			505 with a cable swap.  
						Although the 505 is great for
			QX5	--------+	working out drum parts, I
					|	usually dump it to the sequencer
			|		|	so I can add more velocity
			v		V	info.  Since the QX5 supports
						macros, there's usually no
			TX81Z	     TR-505	problem with memory.  
						
			|			
			v			
						
			MV2			
						
			|			
			v			
						
			S-10			
						
			|			
			v			
						
			CZ-101			

Steve

    My setup is ultra simple:
    
    	MKB-200
    	   |
    	   V
    	Atari ST
    	   |
    	   V
    	 MT-32
    
    The only thing I can think of that I would want to add is an Octapad,
    at which time I will be faced with the same dilemma. I think the
    switch is a neat solution, which I'll probably opt for since I don't
    play more than one instrument at any given time.
    
    						John.

    Mines not to difficult either:
    
    
    
    	CZ-101 (out)------+
    			  |
                        Switch --->(in) MMT-8 Sequencer (out)---+
                          |              Midi THRU ON           |
    	MIDI filer (out)--+                                     |
           (in)                                                 |
            ^                                                   |
            |                                                   |
            +-----------(thru) MT-32 (in)<----------------------+
                                          
    
    I'm thinking of adding another switch set up to put the CZ-101
    in the loop also (I could just go from the Yamaha MIDI filer's
    THRU  to the CZ-101's IN, but, I'd rather have it selectable,
    since I haven't used the CZ-101's sound banks just yet - but plan
    to).
    
    I have noticed that it seems to take me quite a while to get 
    organized these days. All this extra stuff takes some getting used
    to & I've been spending more time putzing than I used to. Once
    I get a handle on the magic aspects, Things should get more lively.
    
    This set up was arrived at after playing out with my equipment for
    2 weeks & it seems to be reliable. I do suggest that anyone that
    sets up a network should mark the cords at each end (so you can
    tell what you are connecting to what). I use colored tape (available
    at Radio Shack) & put 2 colors on each end (like RED/YELLOW on 
    both ends, then RED/GREEN on the next set & so on) - I do this with 
    all my other cords too, so as to hold down the confusion level when
    setting up quickly & swapping stuff around.
    
         				      		Jens

    
    I just fold a piece of packing tape around the cord and give it
    a color-neutral label like "MT-32 IN" or "HR-16 OUT".
    
    All my stuff (power cords, audio cables, MIDI cables) are so labelled
    and my setup is such that I always use the same cords for the same
    purpose each time I setup and break down.  In fact, for the vast
    majority of cords, I leave one end plugged in when I break the setup
    down.
    
    I've found this has saved me a lot of time figuring out where
    "this" cord is going or coming from. 
    
    It also makes setting up easier because you don't have to figure out
    what length cord you need, etc.  Also, I believe that nearly anyone
    with a basic understanding of MIDI and audio could set my rig up
    for me with hardly any instruction.
    easier,
    
    	db

    
    re: .13, .15
    
      Long ago I marked my cables. I always likened it to whoever thinks
    up those colors for lobster bouys, you know they all have unique
    colors and can tell each other's apart...
    
      As for harnessing, I thought of that, but my setup is so fluid
    right now I seem to use everything everywhere. I think what I really
    need is a patch bay since I seem to be spending more time behind
    the backs of the racks than in front of the keyboards. 
    
      Dave, you mentioned "HR-16 MERGE OFF"...I suspect that might be
    my original problem...I totally forgot about that.
    
      Ah well.
    
      /pjh

    Geez, Edd, how didja know?
    
    Look, fellow MIDIots, when things get hairy you need a MIDI switch.
    I get by real fine with an "obsolete" JLCooper MSB-1.  It's 8 in
    10 out, just has a rotary switch for each output that selects one
    of the 8 inputs.  That way you can't get two inputs to the same
    device at the same time.  It has no merge capability.  I have so
    far found no need for a merge capability.  I also use a Roland
    MPU-104 (5 in 1 out switch) and MPU-105 (1 in 5 out switchable
    thru box).
    
    Anyway, my setup looks like (this is not the exact configuration,
    with respect to which synths go to which specific ins and outs of
    the switches, but it's "conceptually" accurate):
    
    Sources:	      Switch		Destinations
              	      +----+
                      |    |
    MKS-80 out ------->A  1>-------->	MKS-80 in
     JX-10 out ------->B  2>-------->    JX-10 in
     J-106 out ------->C  3>-------->    J-106 in
    CZ-101 out ------->D  4>-------->   CZ-101 in
    MC-500 out1 ------>E  5>-------->   MC-500 in
   MPU-104 out ------->F  6>-------->  MPU-105 in
    MC-500 out2------->G  7>--------> MIDIBass in 
         spare ------->H  8>-------->       spare
                      |   9>-------->       spare
    	              |  10>-------->       spare
                      |    |
                      +----+
                    
                      MPU-104
                      +----+ 
    TR-707 out ------->1   |
    TR-727 out ------->2   |
    TR-909 out ------->3   >-------->  Switch In F
    Octapad out ------>4   |
         spare ------->5   |
                      +----+
    
    		      MPU-105
                      +----+
    		      |   1>-------->  TR-707 in
    		      |   2>-------->  TR-727 in
    Switch out 6 ----->   3>-------->  TR-909 in
                      |   4>-------->  SRV-2000.1 in
                      |   5>-------->  SRV-2000.2 in
    		      +----+
                          
                                
    Normally, the JX-10 sources the MC-500; the MC-500's "soft thru"
    is enabled, and the MC-500 out1 sources all the synths.  MC-500
    out2 sources the MPU-105.  (Out1 sends MIDI channels 1-9; out2 sends
    channels 10-16.)  I almost never change these switch settings.
    
    Warning to Octapad users - the Octapad "MIDI IN" is *NOT* a MIDI
    IN!!  It is used *ONLY* to chain two Octapads together.
    
    len.
      
                         

    
    re: Len
    
      ??????? what the &#$*&#^ do they call it a MIDI in for? It seems
    to work for me. I'll play more tonight. 
    
    /pjh

Make the investment in a midi switcher now.  I don't like mucking with plugs
(like working w/o a patch bay when you have a reasonable multi-track and
board); labelling and/or color coding cords helps, but the midi switcher is
optimum for whatever mode you're working in (sequencing, playback, overdubbing,
performance, etc.).  

My configuration is rather complicated; if anyone is interested I can draw it
out sometime.  I use 2 switchers, a 360 Systems Midi Patcher (4 in, 8 out)
and a JL Cooper MSB+ (8 in, 8 out).  Both are reliable.  I started with the
Midi Patcher but had to add the MSB+ primarily because I had more than 8 outs
and (sometimes) more than 4 ins and I did not want to cascade the sound sources
or FXs.

I use a Roland MC-500 sequencer.  MC500 MIDI out A goes into the MSB+; MC500
MIDI out B goes into the Midi Patcher.  The MC500 is set up to transmit midi 
channels 1-8 on MIDI out A and 9-16 on MIDI out B.  I wish could arbitrarily 
assign MIDI channels to the MIDI outs instead.  Does the new MC500 software
do this?  Anyone have it or upgrade their MC500?  The MC500 is in soft-thru
mode when I'm not playing the controller to sound source paths exclusively.
I also cascade a MSB+ output to a MIDI Patcher input.

My 2 keyboard controllers (MIDIboard, Roland D50) go into the switches (not 
directly into the sequencer).  The controllers are routed to the sequencer 
via the switcher.

The switcher output ports go to sound sources, MIDI FXs, and a JL Cooper 
PPS-1 (tape synch).  Some of the sound source MIDI outs return to the 
switchers for subsequent routing to the sequencer (eg, recording drum machine
parts on the sequencer).  Somewhere in there, I'm using the MSB+'s merge.

This mess is facilitated by the "programs" or bindings that the switchers
support.  I have separate programs for playing (standalone),
sequencing/MIDI-overdubbing, recording drum machine parts, synching to tape 
and overdubbing a sequenced part to tape, etc.

It took awhile to figure out;  I started by thinking about the "operational
modes" I needed, then the cabling/routing.

    
    re: .-1
     
      There is obviously more to it than I originally suspected.
    
    re: .*
    
       Well I tried two more configurations last night... I guess there
    is no way I can get around not having a MIDI switcher. Sure would
    beat futzing around with my cables all night. The best I could do
    was to essentially set up the EPS as a master controller, but due
    to cabling limitations (read: lack of sufficient-length cables)
    and hardware limitations (like the ESQ-1's lack of a MIDI THRU and
    the Octapad's strange treatment of incoming MIDI data on it's alleged
    5-pin IN jack) I guess I'll just bite the big one and get a switcher.
    
       It appears that there are at least three configurations that
    make sense for me. Those are: Recording, EPS as master, all other
    devices slaved; Recording, Octapad master, key info to HR-16 but
    not to anyone else (simple with MIDi channels), and all others slaved
    from the Atari (but that requires a merge of MIDI data into the
    HR-16), and general performance (both EPS and ESQ available, the
    MIDIbass on the ESQ-1's lower split using a mute voice). This doesn't
    count playback, either, although I think I could get away with the
    first recording configuration for playback. Definitely this would
    be easier and more value-added work would be accomplished if I had
    a more automatic MIDI patching ability (how's that for DECspeak?).
    
      Ah well, the music store beckons...
    
       /pjh

Switches and  mergers are cheap compared to sound sources, sequencers, etc.
And  it  really is the backbone and nervous system of your network.The MIDI
accessories  may  be around longer than some of the more expensive toys you
have. Purchase something that will accomodate your system's growth. Obvious
stuff;  it  increases productivity. I'd like to know what products you look
into, especially some of the newer products that has been introduced within
the last 2 NAMMs.

Thinking back, I wish I had gotten a larger switch - something of the order
of  JL  Cooper's  16x16  or whatever it is. Not knowing what new toys (like
switchers,  mergers,  as  well  as  sound  sources,  etc) will be available
results  in  my thinking in terms of M x N solutions, where M=N=16 may be a
safe  assumption  for  now.  Only  on  occasion  do I have multiple sources
listening to the same MIDI channel.

This is what I have learned about my usage: I want all of my MIDI equipment
to be accessible through the switch(es); the routing and bindings of switch
ins  to  outs  should also be controlled by the switch. I use more switcher
input  ports  than outputs - in addition to dedicated controller's MIDI out
and  sequencer MIDI outs, I also want the MIDI outs of my sound sources and
effects  returning  to  the switch (via the switch's inputs) for routing to
sequencer,  librarian,  disk,  whatever;  and  all  MIDI  synchronizer-type
devices are also coming in and going out of the switch.

There are  some limitations with the MSB+ and switches in general (360 Midi
Patcher  just does switching - no frills). For example, w.r.t. merging: the
number of channels that can be merged at once and the number of merges that
can be supported simultaneously. This has not been a problem for me, but it
may  be  a dependency for you. In the longer run, I suspect I may encounter
problems  because  I  run  one  tree or network with 2 separate switches. 2
separate  switches  would be ideal for, for example, MIDI load-balancing by
partitioning  into  two  disjoint subnetworks, still controlled by the same
controller(s)  and  sequencer (assuming the sequencer can xmit all the info
you  need  for  all  16 channels over all MIDI outs or using two sequencers
synched  by MIDI). I have seriously considered doing this and would have if
my MC500 had been more cooperative (if I recall, the problem was not having
MIDI  clock  on  both  MIDI  outs).  Since  it  would  have taken awhile to
experiment  with  such  a  configuration and since my current configuration
"worked",  I  punted  the  effort.  I'll probably look into it again when I
design  (specify  the functional requirements for) my patch bay, which must
provide  access  to  most  patchable  points  on  a 20x16x8x2 mixing board,
multitrack,  sound  sources, FXs, and whatever else I want to be accessible
via the patch bay.

I bring  this up because configurations are in forever flux, with momentary
periods  of  stability.  To  optimize the maximize the time of stability is
nice.

Keyboard magazine  had  a  good  article about MIDI configurations 2+ years
ago. It described a handful of representative configurations from simple to
complex.  The complex example integrated stuff that one would probably find
in  a  well-equipped  MIDI-oriented multi-track studio. It could give you a
migration  path  and  model to plan with. I'll look up the issue. If anyone
recalls, the cover was strewn with MIDI cables.

Gaylord

    
    re: Gaylord .-1
    
      Please do look up that article if you have a chance. Your system
    sounds _large_. 
    
    re: .*
    
      I am now the dubiously proud owner of a Digital Music Corporation
    (I guess that is _not_ a subsidiary of Digital Equipment Corporation)
    MX-8 switcher. Didn't someone else mention that they had one?
    
      In any case, here's the specs. If there isn't a topic to add to
    I'll start a review once I figure it out - it looks blessedly simple
    to operate.
    
      Features: 
    
      Route/Merge (6 in - 8 out). You may merge any two inputs
    and assign to any other outputs.
    
      Patch-Chain. Sends <= 8 program change commands to any outputs.
    I guess it means "simultaneous reception"...?
    
      Dual MIDI Delays: independent, 5ms to 3000ms in 1ms intervals,
    also you can apparently vary the number of repeats and adjust velocity
    offset.
    
      MIDI Filters. Thankyouthankyouthankyou.... Filters out all sorts
    of events.
    
      Transpose. Individually by channel or globally, �64 semis
    
      Map. Yet another way of achieving keyboard zones. Should help
    with the ESQ-1...
    
      Velocity limiting. Looks useful.
    
      Velocity Cross Switch. Allows you to switch MIDI channels when
    you cross a certain velocity threshold. Looks neat.
    
      Channel Shift. Offset or Reassign. Offset bumps all channels.
    Reassign routes one channel to another.
    
    Memory: Stores 50 configurations w/10 char names. MIDI program change
    works on it. Rack mounted. 
    
    We shall see.
    /pjh
    

    >Velocity Cross Swith... looks neat
    
    I guess it does! I just had a bazillion uses for such a whatsis
    go through mine head.
    
    You forgot a very imp:}#((}}{{{ortant spec. How many moneys???
    
    Edd

    
    You're right. I did. I paid $369. which is damn close to list, but
    I got it today 'cause I'm probably gonna need it tonight. Someone
    could probably do somewhat better down South.
    
    /pjh

    re: .23
    
    Please do look up that article if you have a chance. Your system
    sounds _large_. 

Keyboard, Jan. '86, "SYSTEMS planning an integrated setup: you don't alwyas 
need what you want", pp. 84 - 94.

Yes, my system needs a patch bay.

    
    re: .-1 thankyew.
    
       Well. I feel kind of like I died and went to heaven or something.
    I *can* make music, I *can* spend more time playing and sequencing
    than fiddling around with cords, and I *just might* get a tape into
    Commusic V since it seems that a MIDI patcher was exactly the proper
    piece of equipment to have.
    
       For the first time in two weeks I actually got something significant
    accomplished. I'll review the MX-8 separately from this topic, but,
    suffice it to say, putting it in the middle of everything, storing
    a general "performance" patch, a "record EPS to Atari" patch, a
    "record drums from Octapad" patch, a "play Atari to everybody" patch,
    and just *playing* for a change sure makes things easier. And I
    still have ports left in the rackmount. 
    
    /pjh

    Glad it worked out.
    
    Could you also tell us WHERE you got it.  I was somewhat surprised that
    any of the local music stores stock this.
    
    	db

    
    re: db
    
      Advance Music, Burlington VT. Hardly local to you! DMC is an American
    company, I don't know who-all down there carries it, it seems pretty
    new to the market. If you find a dealer down there let it be known?
    
    /pjh