Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    I don't feel reaped by technology.
    
    If this kind of thing really bothers you, use it to your advantage.
    
    Instead of being one of those folks who is always buying the 
    "latest thing", be one of those folks who is always buying the
    "previous latest thing" at fire sale prices from those folks who
    simply have to have the latest thing.
    
    If you simply must have the latest thing, then you better get used
    to feeling reaped.  From what I've seen in the past few years, there
    is plenty of reason to expect that it's gonna happen more frequently
    as time goes on.
    
    I know of some folks who are building pretty impressive systems
    this way and saving an average of 50%, often more.
    
    Your TR-626 is neither obsolete nor outdated, even if it has been
    devalued somewhat.  

	db

    
    	Remember those 4 banger calculators that once sold for over
    $100??...well, it could *divide*...nuff said?
    
    	Perhaps someday something like an ESQ-1 will hit a minimum
    possible price and cost maybe $100.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    Now that I've assembled a fairly good studio I've kind of stopped
    looking for the latest and greatest. The HR was the last sound
    producing module I intend to buy for some time. Any further cash
    will go into a board and monitors.
    
    The stuff doesn't get outdated. Even my RX21 (Which at >$300 should
    qualify as the crime of the century) is still on-line. It functions
    every bit as 'good' now as is it did then. When I bought it 2.5
    years ago, there simply wasn't anything that could compare to the
    likes of an HR-16 in my price range, so I bought what I could afford.
    For $300 I got a real good education in drum programming and still
    have a perfectly functional piece of hardware. That seems like a
    good deal to me.
    
    "Outdated" is a term the marketeers invented. It means "please spend
    even more". 
    
    Having all the new toys is nice, but sometimes ya just gotta get
    down and *do* something, y' know?
    
    Edd The Un-Raped

    If you purchase equipment as a tool to satisfy a goal, and the
    equipment does indeed satisfy that goal, I don't see what difference it
    makes if there now exists other equipment that satisfies that goal
    better. The equipment purchased still satisfies the goal (and more than
    likely will also satisfy many other goals).
    
    It reminds me of when I first went out a bought a PC. I was just
    starting out doing some PC software development consulting, and needed
    some sort of PC to get the job done. Well the AT class of machines
    hadn't been introduced yet, so I got a Rat Shack T2000 for a little
    over $6000. It was about 2 1/2 times faster than the normal PC's and it
    served it's purpose very well. I was a little bummed when I saw the
    same exact model being discounted to $1799 a little over 2 years later,
    but I needed it when I got it, and it worked.
    
    pcv

    Yup. I wonder how pro recording studios make a living, let alone
    a profit that enables them to expand. If you invest in the gear
    that people expect, and the premises you need, then charge, say,
    10 pounds an hour for 8 track, I can't see how you pay the rent.
    Seems that you'll onl;y start to run into real profit about the
    time when you have to update costly items of equipment.
    
    Anybody know how they do it? Or does this explain why many studios
    seem to go bust after a few years?

    Richard.

    I don't think anybody wins at the game of buying the latest and
    greatest improvements except people who get paid a lot for their
    music (a minority).  As far as my own methods, when MIDI came out
    I started shooting for mostly MIDI-only stuff.  Lately, the only
    stuff I've gotten is stuff I never plan to sell, so I don't worry
    about loss in value.  Also, I don't buy something unless I figure
    it will be a long time before I find it no longer musically useful.
    The idea of waiting until a blowout is very good - especially when
    stuff starts out expensive.  But, if it is already pretty cheap,
    there is not such a problem.  For example, I got a TX81Z when it
    was pretty new.  The price on it since I bought it has come down
    about $100.  That's not a bad hit.  I bought a CZ-101 - a good value
    since the price had pretty well tapered off and it's cheap, anyway.
    I got a TR-505 after the prices had leveled off some.  It's gone
    down by about $50-100 since the time I bought it.  Similar stories with
    the MV2 and the QX-5.  Now, all this stuff is cheap (relatively) but 
    is very good quality and represents several technologies.  I got an S-10
    for about $800 (that's about half of what it went for last year), so there
    was a big savings there.  So, now my studio has PD, FM and sampling
    technologies represented as well as nice effects and a good drum
    machine.  I don't need a better drum machine to do good music. 
    Maybe next year, when the D-110 drops to about $500 I'll get some
    LA represented in my system.  But, for now I'm able to do an awful
    lot.  It's not out of date as far as I'm concerned because it can
    do pretty much anything I want, musically.  The key is to buy stuff
    that you know you'll be satisfied with down the road, and don't plan
    to ever sell it if you don't want to worry about obsolescence or loss 
    in value.  That is, of course, my own humble opinion, and it protects
    my wallet from my own MIDIholic tendencies ...
    
    Steve

    Even while I speak, there are lots of people advocating the
    introduction of a successor to MIDI. They want a higher speed link
    with full networking capabilities. This makes very good sense, as
    the number of sound units and controllers you want to connect together
    increases. I would say that a network of this sort should be out
    in another five or so years, obsoleting all your MIDI equipment.
    
    The MORAL of the story? Don't buy it unless you intend to use it.
    You can buy now, use now, or save your cash until something better
    comes along, at which time you'll face the same decision. For musicians
    on a budget, you have to put a stake in the ground somewhere. As
    long as there are people ready, willing, and able to buy equipment
    with features they can't live without, technology keeps going forward.
    
    						John.

    Technology is relative. The need for the latest in state of the
    art is directly proportional to your individual needs. Have you
    outgrown the toys you have? Probobly not. Just as in the computer
    market the waterfall effect applies here as well. The "older"
    technology will always be useful to someone. And, w ill always be
    more affordable. If it does what you want it to do it is not outdated
    outmoded or obsolete. There are still plenty of people who run 196x
    vintage computers because they do the job. Those who need the latest
    and greatest will buy it leaving the discarded (junk to them) toys
    for the rest of us.
    
    Jim
    

    Yeah... Thats the ticket....
    
    

    
    re: .*
    
      IMHO, it seems that it shouldn't matter. What sounds good to you?
    What are you most comfortable working with?
    
    For instance, I still have my Korg Polysix. It is about to turn
    5 (that should be young for an instrument) in May. So I have heard
    music store lizards tell me "hey, that piece of trash? Dump it and
    buy this..." to which I say "no." To me it's not trash even if it
    doesn't do MIDI. I like the sound, it is easy to work and serves
    a very useful purpose. LA synths are great sounding too, but do
    I want to take more time to learn more technology? I want to make
    music. I tend to keep things for *years*, not months. Some people
    do it the other way around.
    
    Technology advancement is not the issue - keeping up with the Joneses
    is another thing altogether. I try to make investments that are
    right for me, in my unique context (the decision to buy an ESQ-1
    still makes a lot of sense, and I haven't gone running to buy an
    SQ-80 because the ESQ is "obsolete"). Major changes in technology
    cost lots of money (I'm estimating *lots* of incidental costs for
    my next piece of technology, an S-550). But I don't need or want
    every new piece of technology that comes along.
    
    /pjh

    I used a Mechanical Hammond M3, and a TR-606 drum machine (lets
    all laugh together) for Live work. All of these are considered
    outdated. I even use a CZ-101. Guess what. I pulled in over $5000.00
    last year from my Duo, playing only weekends (I pay my taxes on
    this - all legally done - 'cause I get lots of deductions, and
    additional rights, since this is a small business). The audience
    doesn't care what's new & what's not, they only care about what
    they like. I buy some of my gear new, but, I  rarely ever get rid
    of anything that I buy. The MT-32 that I recently bought has (I
    suspect) the same sound chips in it that the TR-626 does - it sounds
    great to me. I build up my equipment as I need it & buy used when
    ever possible. You are right, the manufactures are always making
    better products, and they are coming out too fast (the camera companies
    seem to do this also). Stick with what you got & learn how to use
    it. The music content is what counts, not the sound generators.
    
    							Jens

    I remember when my OB-Xa was worth $6500 list (!).  I paid $3900 for it
    and thought I was getting the deal of a lifetime.  Now, after adding
    (what turned out to be) a $500 MIDI upgrade to the thing, it's worth
    around $1200, and only because it's in mint condition.  On the surface,
    it appears that I've taken a big $$$ hit, and the Xa certainly isn't
    the top of technology nowadays. 

    HOWEVER ...

    The experience of learning to program this thing has more than paid off
    with other synths.  I've been able to almost directly port my
    programming concepts to other units (even FM to some extent).  I can't
    put a dollar value on that.  Also, I have never had anyone say "boy,
    that sure sounds like crap" about the Xa.  I still get good comments on
    the quality of the sound from the box - even in this age of FM, LA and
    sampling.

    My rule(s) of thumb is(are) as follows: 

	- if you don't need it, don't buy it
	- if you need it, spend the $$$ to get what you want

    If you buy quality, it won't become obsolete (read: useless).  Look at
    the MiniMoog ... 

-b

    last week here the public tv show Computer Chronicles had a whole
    show about the commodore C-64, still selling new product, still
    getting new software (of course, with 7,000,000 installed base),
    and a MIDI demo at the end of Master Musician by the writer.
    It's not obsolete if it works.
    Even a PDP11/23 can make SOME music, if limited (however, I now
    have a third-tone scale and will try to implement harry partch's
    scale.  It's not too limited in that department).
    Oh yeah, there's a 17-tone equal-step scale; I could do that easily.
    Tom

    Incidentally, I identified my strategy for electronics in about
    1977, (not synths; effects to use on acoustic piano, e.g. modulation,
    pitch-change, reverb was a peripheral thing to me then, delay,
    echo, looping were important)
    
    and when the equipment came into my price range in the last
    few years, I got it.  I'm done for now.
    Tom

    
    Raped? Naw....run over by progress, maybe, but not raped.
    
    Don't forget that same technology gave you that sampler that's so
    'outdated'. Before that you'd be using your Editall block.
    
    In my big sound system brand new tech speakers are powered by 12
    year old amps, and by choice. The new high tech switching amps don't
    have the punch and drive of the old ones. They'll stay in the system
    until the technology catches up with them.
    
    Tom siad it best...it's not obsolete if it works. Don't get caught
    up in the 'keeping up with the joneses' hype.
    
    CdH
    

    
    Maybe I didn't say what I meant to say in the original note.  
    
    I love my Akai AX80 and my Rhodes, and will never sell them.  Even
    though they are both dogs by todays FM/LA standards, they can do
    what I want.  Hell, I almost bought a moog liberation that was
    advertised in the paper for $75 bucks! (It was already sold when
    I called.) And for the most part, with MIDI there isn't the planned
    obsolescence that was there B.M. (Before MIDI)
    
    As far as a new interface coming out, I remember that Oberheim was
    violently opposed to MIDI because of the lack of speed.  I believe
    that they still support their RS-232 type interface which is FASTER,
    although MIDI incompatible.
    
    The point I'm trying to make is that since things are coming out
    so quickly, and technology is evolving at such a rapid rate, the
    consumer can not make a fully informed purchase.  When I bought
    my TR-626, I chose it because of the sounds.  I would have preferred
    a DDD-1 or DDD-5, since I do my programming by physically playing
    the pads.  Velocity sensitivity means a lot to me.  And then the
    HR-16 comes out, with velocity sensitivity, and I can have 16 tunings
    of a tom-tom.  What incredible obnoxious tom fills!!  So I'm selling
    the 626, buying a HR-16 and a Midiverb II and an Octapad; and then
    I'm just going to sit in my room and make music until I can afford
    a Lexicon and a Fairlight.   (BTW, they're in the LA paper for $10k
    for a used series II).
    
    And that's the way it is.

    I recently sold my Roland MKS-20 piano.. purchased for ~$1700, kept
    it two years, sold for $900. Why $900 ? Well, there's units about
    to hit the street in that price range NEW. I advertised the unit
    locally for $1100 and didn't get ONE call. 
    
    Do I feel done in by the march of technology ? nah. I had and enjoyed
    the piano for two years, and was able to take that money along with
    the Fb01 and motorcycle money, and purchase a box that didn't EXIST
    two years ago - the Kurzweil PX rack unit. 
    
    So I still use my ancient TEAC 3340, used Fostex A8, Marantz power 
    amp, various Nakamichi pieces, and a used Apple Mac. These pieces 
    still work fine. It's true that there's terrific depreciation on new 
    equipment (true for cars/houses too!) but there is a time to get 
    new, too. In fact, the MIDIverb and MIDIfex are about to get recycled 
    in favor of higher-grunt effects.
    
    So, just like politics, only buy when and what YOU want to. Realize
    if you buy new that the unit, WHATEVER IT IS, will depreciate rapidly.
    Ask any Emulator II owner about 'obsolescence'.
    
    karl

    I feel pretty good.
    	
    Up until a month ago, I had NO pieces of new equipment.  Everything
    major I owned was used, homebrew, or blowout-demo.
    
    Now I have an HR-16 and an Octapad, both new.  I would have bought
    the Octapad used, but the price differential between new and used
    was so SMALL that I went for a new one with a warranty. 
    
    Ask Len F. if his 2.5 year old Octapad is outdated... I don't think
    so.  
    
    The HR-16 is the most-likely-to-become-outdated device I own; but
    that's OK, because even if it's outdated, it still works.  Maybe
    if it fries I'll replace it with a 16-bit 16-voice sampler with
    a built-in sequencer, but I doubt it.  It sounds good, it has enough
    outputs that I can process the h*ll out of it and make some truly
    bizarre sounds; and it's paid for.
       
    I too am running 12-year-old speakers, a six year old amp, and routing
    through a processor/preamp that's somewhere between seven and ten
    years old (another demo blowout unit).   
    
    What do I want to buy/build next?  Either buy a "classic Moog/ARP" or
    build myself that PDSP I've been foaming over these last few months.
    Neither is big ticket; neither is likely to even have MIDI!
    
    
    Go back into the studio, backup everything to tape, tear out all
    the patchcords, re-init all the memories, and build yourself something
    new.  I think you've been media-hyped and just need to lay off the
    caffiene for a while.                       :-)
    
    	Relax.  This is supposed to be fun.     :-)
    	                                           
    	-Bill
    
    						

    No, my Octapad is not outdated.  I'd really like a Simmons Silicon
    Mallet, but my Octapad is more than adequate to my needs.
    
    My Roland Super Jupiter is "obsolete" by modern standards, but nothing
    available for less than twice what it cost me comes close to its
    analog sound.  yeah, the tuning drifts, and it's only 4 voices,
    and the MIDI implementation is kinda basic, so I let it warm up,
    I multitrack it, I don't expect too much of it.  I love it and I'll
    *never* part with it, and if it ever breaks I'll get it fixed.
    It has been paid the *ultimate* technological compliment by being
    confused with a sampler.
    
    My Juno-106 is utterly obsolete by conventional standards, but I
    note that Roland just rereleased it, repackaged with builtin amps
    and speakers!  It's not velocity sensitive, but an Iota Systems
    MIDIFader would fix that, as well as give me some automated mixdown
    capability, so that's a box I'll probably spring for at some point.
    I paid $1000 for my Juno, a price that would buy at least twice
    the synth today.  But I still got my money's worth.
    
    I paid almost $1300 for an SRV-2000.  Later they were remaindered
    at $500.  Who cares.  I got $1300 worth of use of mine, easily.
    I continue.  Somebody else got one for $500?  Hey, more power to
    them.  Was it worth $800 to me to *not* have an exquisite sounding
    reverb for a year?  No way.
    
    I still use my TR-909, a hopelessly obsolete analog drum machine.
    
    Et cetera. 
        
    So, I certainly have no interest in holding back technological progress
    so my "investments" retain their "value".  Things will always get
    better and cheaper as time passes.  That's a virtue.  I get to take
    as much advantage of that as anyone else who happens to buy something
    a little while later.
    
    It's been said many times already.  Buy what you need that you can
    afford.  If you don't need it or can't afford it (or it's not worth
    what it costs to you) *don't buy it*.  The value of equipment is
    not monetary, its value is in what you can do with it.  There's
    no point in buying technology for technology's sake if you can't
    exploit it. 
    
    len.

    I love these topics.  Everybody has a motto.
    
    My philosopy is to purchase ``bang'' instead of ``bang for the buck''.
    I'm probably never going to replace any of the components in my
    system.  (I hope they never die of their own accord).  Every piece
    was bought to meet a set of particular needs.
    
    Steph

    
    O.K. Here's how I'v combatted my 'backlash condition'.
    
    1.	Sold the TR626 for $300.  I paid $350.
    2.	The Beach Boys, Chicago, and America had a parking lot sale
    	here in LA this weekend with 'We're tired of storing it' deals.
    	Here's what I picked up:
    
    		1) Morley Volume pedal
    		   CE1 Chorus
    		   Maestro Phaser		$30.00
    		   Barcus-Berry 6 ch. mixer
    		   Yamaha footswitch
		2) Anvil Wardrobe case		$50.00
    		3) Anvil Guitar case		$10.00
    		4) Fender reverb tank (new)	$10.00
		5) Univox 10" transistor amp	$10.00
    		6) Arp string ensemble		$30.00
    
    The string ensemble sounds great, but I doubt I'll play it in public
    unless I get roadies to carry it.
    
    I'm undecided on the MIDIverb II or the DSP-128, so I'm holding
    out until more DSP-128 reviews come in.  And I'm going to wait a
    month on the Alesis drum machine to make sure they don't come out
    with a sampler model for $125 between now and then.
    
    So I'm a neanderthal, so what.  :^)
    
    As Joe Walsh says, ...I can play that rock & roll!
    
    Ashley

    I Wholeheartedly agree with the overall tenor of the replies posted
    here. Let me add a couple of snippets:-
    
  * Have a go at predicting the technology. It helps avoid premature
    obselesence and helps you to understand what's likely to be available
    to you in the future. I bought my last synth (one of the first analogue 
    programmables) 6 years ago. I predicted at that time that synths 
    would become mainly digital internally (pretty obvious huh?), and 
    decided then that my next synth would be digital.
                                                 
  * Know what you want. If the current products don't give you it, and
    you can afford to wait, then do so. There's nothing more frustrating
    than buying what will "just about" do the job, only to have what
    you really wanted available six months (or maybe six weeks) later.
                                                 
    I was using an organ and a mono synth, but I knew it was pointless
    to buy anything else for my type of work until I could get a
    programmable polyphonic. When they became available I bought one.

    I currently want touch sensitivity, aftertouch, splits and layers, 
    and enough voices for my purposes, all within a certain price band. 
    I've been waiting about two years. Now I have the Roland D-50 and 
    the Yamaha DX7II to choose from (as soon as the prices get low enough).   
    
    Alex