Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Not to sound condescending, but you do realize the MKB-300 you
    fell in love with didn't make a sound, don't you? It's a 
    controller *only*.
    
    Be that as it may, if you like it , buy it. You'll need a tone module
    to go with it. The Yamaha Fb01 or TX81Z are nice, relatively cheap
    units. The Roland MT-32 is abit more expensive, but gets lotsa good
    press.
    
    Keyboard touch is a religious issue. I don't give a damn if it feels
    like a piano or not. Some people (probably pianists) think this
    is important and to them it surely is.
    
    Of course, the ESQ-1 your friend has isn't a bad unit either. It'll
    save you the cost of a sequencer and is capable of some nice timbres.
    
    Edd

>	1. Should we get an instrument with full size keys and characteristics
>	    like a piano? velocity sensitive, etc.

	Someday, you'll end up wanting one.  If you can afford it, you might as
well get it now.

>	2. Should we get an 88 key instrument? or is 76 or even 61 keys
>	    ok for beginners? Would 76/61 keys limit our learning ability?
>	    Can teachers adapt their programs for the less than 88 key
>	     devices? etc...

	Depends.  If playing piano is the desired goal, you'll want at least 76.
Please note that piano and synth are COMPLETELY different instruments.  It took
me a long time to learn this.  I am a piano player that got into synths for the
portability.  It took three frustrating years and the purchase of a Roland RD200
before I was satisfied.  Sure I like synths, too, but I PLAY like a pianist.
Some people have no problem making the switchover - I do.

	Regarding teachers, recognize that there are a lot more piano teachers 
around than there are synth teachers.  Since the skills are different (and 
there's more technical information necessary for synths - programming patches, 
use of continuous controllers, etc.), and they haven't been around as long, 
don't assume a piano teacher will be able or willing to teach both.

	I'd expect a classical piano teacher to look down his nose at most synth
keyboards since they are not usually weighted, and, as you said, most are 61
keys.  This is a case where you might want to find the teacher FIRST, then find 
the keyboard.

>	3. We have really enjoyed all the different sounds from the CZ230s
>	    and would really like that ability in what we select.
>		(software/hardware are neat, we own computers already)

	As you said, since that cz is midi implemented, you won't have to give 
those sounds up by buying an additional keyboard.

>	4. I want to spend the least and get the most, what would you
>	    recommend we purchase?

	If you can answer the following questions, we should be able to give you
some decent options.

		a)  Do you want to learn piano or synth or both?
		b)  Is programmability important?
		c)  What's the general price range you feel comfortable 
			spending?
		d)  Do you mind getting something used?

	Dan

    Full-size keyboards versus Mini-keys:  I had problems with my first
    synth (a DX-100), because my fingers were too big to fit between the
    black keys (makes reaching some chords very uncomfortable). Likewise, I
    remember being very young and having trouble on a Hammond organ because
    my hands weren't big enough to reach a full fifth without much
    joint-stretching (No, I wasn't a young prodigy, I just wanted to see
    what kind of sounds I could make.  But Hammonds are rather boring
    compared to even the early Moogs.)  Have your daughter there and have
    her try the 'boards too.  My sister at 9 had only a little trouble on a
    full-size keyboard, let's hope your daughter has long fingers too. 
    
    --------------------------------------    
    
    What "kind" of keyboard:
    
    Don't let these guys get you "down" on synths; to me, a good acoustic
    piano keyboard feels "wrong".  For one thing, it clunks (the natural
    effect of the piano felt-hammer hitting the insides).  You have
    to hit it _hard_ (tiring).  I lift enough weights at the gym; I
    don't want to do it at the keyboard.
    
    Piano keys are usually shaped very squareish, with no rounded corners
    and sharp edges.  Synths tend to be rather rounded in all directions.
    	
    Weighted synth keys are better than unweighted- only in that they
    "feel better" to me.  I intellectually know that all I'm doing is
    closing a switch; there's no need to have a heavy spring pushing
    back.                                                                  
    
    I'm not good enough to make this statement, but several synth/piano
    players I know well have: 
    	
    	You can play faster on a synth keyboard because your hands don't
    	have to fight the keyboard.
    
    -------------------------
    
    Velocity-sensing: MUCH more important than weighted/unweighted or
    piano/synth styling.  Without velocity-sense, every C1 sounds exactly
    the same. This gets boring fast. With velocity sense, the sound
    volume/tone/timbre can change smoothly depending on how hard you
    hit it.  Pianos used to be called PianoFortes, meaning Soft-Loud,
    because they were the first keyboard instruments to be able to sense
    how hard the player hit the keys and be louder/softer based on that.
    The previous keyboards (harpsichords and church organs) always played
    the same volume no matter how hard or soft the player played.
    
    	Pretty much all "decent" keyboards have velocity sense keyboards.
    	Don't buy one without it. :-)	                                    
                                   
    --------------------
    
    Pressure-sensing: Very nice feature, but tends to get very expensive.
    While velocity-sense varies the sound based on how hard you moved
    the key from UP to DOWN, pressure-sense varies the sound depending
    on how hard you press on the key AFTER IT'S ALREADY DOWN. 
    
    Pressure sense comes in two flavors- channel and key.  Channel pressure
    has only a single sensor for the entire keyboard; press on any key
    hard (or any group) and every note being played changes in exactly
    the same way.  Key-pressure sensing instruments have a separate
    pressure sensor for EACH key; pressing harder on that key changes
    that note and that note only.  Very useful if you use "keyboard
    splits" (telling the upper half of the keyboard to play a sound
    like someone going "Ahhhhhhh" and the lower being a bass guitar.
    Then, using pressure sense to put tremolo in the guitar won't 
    tremolo the "Ahhhhhhh's" as well.)
    	
    	Pressure sense gets more expensive; you ought to play one just
    	to see what it's like but you probably don't need/can't afford
    	it right now.   
                       
    
    ----------------------------------
    
    How many keys (88 versus 61 etc.)
    
    Remember, the classical church-organ keyboard is only 61 keys- but
    there can be 2, 3, or even 4 of them.  The classical church organ
    also has the widest frequency range of any non-electronic instrument;
    usually from below the audible (infrasonic) to commensurate with
    a piccolo. 
                                                       
    Most of the 88-key and 76-key instruments are piano ONLY (or piano+
    harpsichord+vibraphone); they aren't really programmable by the
    user.  They're for people who want a very realistic sounding/feeling
    piano that they can carry in one hand.  
    
    It sounds like you want much more programmability; and for that
    you want either a synthesizer or a sampler+computer.  Both of these
    are typically 61-key keyboards.
    
    -------------------------
    
    Teachers?
    	
    	Most music stores (at least the respectable ones) have lists
    of people who privately teach the instruments they sell.  Go ahead
    and ask; some stores even run the private classes on-site. 
                                                       
    -------------------------
    
    BOOKS!!!  
    	
    	Buying/borrowing a few books on instrument technique and sound
    synthesis is a _must_.  You won't understand all of it at first,
    but as you listen and experiment, it'll all start to make sense.
                              
    Besides, there's always this notesfile!  
                                             
    -----------------------
    
    Price ranges for new equipment:
    	
    	New- velocity sensing 61-key synth keyboard ~$1200 and up, up, up
    	used- 	"	"	"	"   	"   ~$700 and up
    
    Piano-simulators similar. 
       	   
    I'd suggest looking at the used market carefully.  You can save
    a bundle on used equipment - IF it's in good shape.  I've only once
    bought new, everything else of mine is used/demo/homemade.  
    
    There's a book "The Whole Synthesizer Catalog" which is an excellent
    (and mostly accurate) descriptive listing of the capabilities of
    most of the synthesizers ever built (even a few custom ones).
    The book also gives some useful _general_ information you might
    find useful, scattered through the reviews.  Good reading, not boring.
    	
    	-Hope we haven't made it worse for you...
    	-Bill
    

	Very interesting responses/questions. And please the information
	will only help us make a good decision. Here are some replies.

	Re: .1
	Edd, After careful explanation by the salesperson at LaSalle's where 
	I saw the MKB-300, I was educated on this. There is just so much stuff 
	out there! And he suggested the MT-32 immediately. He went out of his 
	way to explain it, we connected it to the MKB and he played(I poked).
	I also got to hear the Tx81Z. Nice sounding(to my uneducated ear) but 
	the MT seems to have so much more, it also costs a bunch more.

	Re: .2
	Dan, then maybe we start out with a piano teacher. That implies we 
	should get something that sort of works like a piano. But I want to 
	have the ability to create different timbres. 

	<Do you want to learn piano or synth or both?>
		I think(there's that word again) that we would like to learn
		to play and create music. We start learning with the piano
		but immediately start experimenting with creating different
		sounds?

	<Is programmability important?>
		If programmability == creative ability then the answer is yes.
		Does this mean Yet Another Programming Language? Can my
		9yr old experiment in this environment?

	<What's the General Price Range you feel comfortable spending?>
		0(one can always hope) to an absolute max of $1k. The
		lower the better.

	<Used equipment OK?>
		Yes, used hardware is fine. I buy used cars all the time.
		BUT as a design for test specialist I can understand that
		one of these devices could have many faults that I could
		not inspect/test for at time of purchase. Just how does one
		check out an instrument with 10**infinite modes of operation?


	Re: .3
	Bill, The mini keys stink. My CZ230s' action is the pits. It has no
	kind of sensitivity and playing the same volume/tone/etc is boring.
	I bought the "whole...." catalog. And found it interesting but the
	info is dated. Nothing that is currently "hot" and actively written
	about in Keyboard or EM is in it. But the info was helpful in under-
	standing some of the technology.

	I have been scouting the stores, listening to salesmen(strange
	no women in these places), talking with other buyers, and talking
	with musicians at work.

	I know I must sound like a real dumbo, but I have some more questions:

	1. I think we would be better off now to trade sound quality for
	   having a really good keyboard. Am I correct?

	2. Multi-timbral sounds better(even to my ear) but what about 
	   6-8-16-? polyphony? As new students is this all just marketing? 
	   Or will we hurt our learning/growth by having 6-8 note polyphony?
	   The Tx81Z has 8, some older gear has 6, some big $$ gear have 
	   zillions, the MT-32 has 32....
	   We have seen(heard) this on our cz230s. When we try to make a cord
	   with the left hand do something with the right, we can hear the
	   cord getting cut off.

	3. I have seen some apparently "low prices" for some AKAI synths
	   and samplers. BUT I did not even know this stuff existed. And
	   reading back a year none of the mags have any words on them. Are
	   these dead? are they not even worthwhile for cheap beginnings?
	   One of them has 76 keys, velocity sensitivity, 6 note polyphony
	   and sounds pretty good. The action is so/so.

	Thanks in advance.
		Rich.

    
    You said in 0 that a mate brought round an ESQ1 and you were very
    impressed. The thing is, unless you can PLAY one of these synths,
    you'll probably get fed up with it -- no matter how many sounds
    it has -- in a relatively short time. If you and your daughter are
    genuinely interested in learning to play a keyboard, then I'd say
    go for a new/used 88 key instrument (Yam PF80, Roland RD300, Korg
    DP3000c(?)) and learn to play it. For one thing, the term 'weighted
    key' as used by synth manufacturers just means 'key with a spring
    attached'. Feels nothing like a piano, and you and your daughter
    will have problems with an acoustic instrument if you learn on one
    of these things. Then there's the controllers on a synth -- pitch
    wheels, aftertouch and the like. A whole bunch more to learn, when
    the first thing you need is elementary keyboard skills. You'd enjoy
    using synths much more if you invested in a piano now (acoustic
    or electric), and a synth next year when you can start to get the
    best out of it. Don't waste time 'poking' a synth -- your thousand
    dollars could be put to much better use at this stage!
    
    Richard. 

    Hi Rich....
    
    1. Like someone said: action is personal taste. Ive played
       most all of the availible "synth" piano actions. Each is unique.
       But they are all feel "piano". Everything else is "organ".
       Even if claiming "weighted-action" usually. THIS is the big
       decision: which action. I "learned"(self taught) on a small
       Steinway, but spent more hours playing hammonds and various
       synths...its my opinion that having that piano background first
       will allow an easier transition to organ/synth than trying to
       get the feel of a piano action after playing organ/synth as your
       'learning' action.
    
    2. BUT....Its going to be difficult to get out of the store with
        a piano-action keyboard (controller or piano-emulator) for under
       $1k. However, most of the 'pianos' have midi these days, so
       investing in one, and then picking up a synth module (Fb01,Tx81z,
       Mt32,etc) as expansion can be cost effective. You have computers
       and can program these from it. No keyboard-with-knobs is needed.

       Go for the basics. 76 keys is fine: very few players use the
       top and bottom of keyboards.88 is fine too. Velocity sensitivity
       is a MUST (but most anything will have it). AND... UNDER 8 voices
       will be a severe restriction.

    What can I say?
    
    I'm very big on the Ensoniq ESQ-1.
    
    It seems to have unbounded potential for learning and exploration.
    And even though I sometimes play with it the way a child might play
    with a toy, it's clearly NOT a toy - it is definitely a pro piece
    of equipment.
    
    I've listened to almost every synth I've found in a store, and with
    the exception of samplers and the new Kurzweil stuff (which is very
    expensive).  If I were limited to one synth to do keyboard sounds
    (piano, clav, harpsichord), strings, and brass/horns I would definitely
    choose the ESQ-1 without a second thought.
    
    The sequencer is almost like "free" for the price they sell it for.
    
    I have a friend who bought one and you wouldn't believe what his
    young teenage son has done with this thing.  The kid demonstrates
    an unusual interest, appreciation and enjoyment of music.  I can't
    say for sure, but my guess is that the ESQ-1 provided a good deal
    of the spark for this.  It was probably incredible fun for him,
    and it didn't limit him.
    
    Of course, there is ONE keyboard I'd pick over the ESQ-1: The 
    Ensoniq SQ-80 which is like an ESQ-1 with more waveforms and more
    sequencer memory.  This one even has a builtin drum kit.
    
    	db

    Do you play it's keyboard or play it from your RD-300? 

    I know. It depends....
    
    Could get a Rack esq-1 AND some piano-action kbd...
    
    Rich has to decide the keyboard first. I just played the
    (real) piano sunday for a couple of hours. I play the
    synth every day lately and havent hit the other for a 
    while.....
    
    THE MUSCLES WERENT USED TO IT!   
    
    Conclusion: Piano action is a better developmental keyboard.

    I guess you can see how asking "What's Best?" is a five rabbis
    problem*.
    
    I do agree with Dave Blickstein, though.  Having only a piano soundset
    (OK, piano + piano-related instruments like harpsichords and
    vibraphones) will get very boring after a few days, especially if
    you have heard and played with an ESQ-1 or other synth.
    	
    Here's an analogy:  You're building a building, 
    
    Mode "A": You must use only standard parts; you aren't even allowed to
    cut an 8' 2x4 shorter. You don't even have a lot of these standard
    parts, perhaps ten or so.  All of the parts are beautifully
    prefinished, however there was little thought on the part of the
    manufacturer that these parts would be used together. 
                                                         
    Mode "B": You have a catalog of standard parts, slightly prefinished,
    but nearly every aspect of nearly every part is alterable, at no charge
    to you, the buyer, and with instant delivery.  You do have to describe
    the differences between the catalog items and what you really want, and
    in a language that is slightly unfamiliar (say, Old English); 
    
    Mode "C": You have no catalog at all; what you have is a Xerox machine.
    When you want a part, you drive around town, and look for a part
    already in some building that is what you want, except perhaps for
    the prefinishing.  You then Xerox out as many of these parts as
    you wish. For a Nominal Charge, you can buy Sample Parts from a
    factory, if you can't find the parts you want to copy locally.
    
    
    I hope this analogy helps- Mode "A" is a preprogrammed, prefinished
    electronic piano, mode "B" is a synthesizer, and mode "C" is a sampler.
    
    
    How I use my ESQ-1: Some days, I punch up Strings over Choir, and
    play some Pink Floyd, or Full Ranks over Expando, and play Mozart,
    and never touch the programming controls.  Other days I JUST program,
    experimenting to see what kind of sound I might discover.  (these
    are the _real_ cat-scaring days :-) )
    
    You can't do that with an electronic piano. You only have days of
    the first type, you have only prefinished parts.
                                                      
    ----------------------------------------------------
    
    BTW: If you can afford it, I heartily second Dave Blickstein's
    recommendation of the ESQ-1.  Great sounding, velocity-sensitive,
    built-in sequencer, fully (!!!) programmable, easy to understand,
    backing storage to both cassette tape and EEPROM cartridge.  And built
    like a brick outhouse.  Definitely pro-level gear.
    
    The MT-32 is not always 32 voices; it is UP TO 32 voices.  The voice
    architecture allows splitting/combining.  At maximum split (maximum
    voices), there are 32.  Worst case, there are 8.  And it is not
    user-programmable at all from the front panel, you _must_ have either
    a computer or another Roland synth to program it from.  However,
    it does sound very very nice; and it certainly is an inexpensive
    way to add a lot of voices. 

        
    *five rabbis problem: From the proverb "Ask five rabbis a question,
    get six answers."                      
                                                        
    	-Bill Yerazunis
       

    Just as a side note, When my daughter (7 years old - almost 8) started
    lessons, she played the piano (a real one) & continues to do so.
    She also plays my Casio CZ-101 (with an MT-32 attached) if she feels
    like it. In my humble opinion, it doesn't make any difference if
    she decides to play either. In both cases, the lessons are teaching
    her how to make music, not just strange noises. The Piano was harder
    on her hands (as it is mine, since I don't play it that often either),
    but she knows that the piano & synth are 2 similar, but different
    instruments. She doesn't mind the smaller keys of the CZ-101 (and
    she has played a friends ESQ-1, so she knows that the keys on the
    CZ-101 are smaller), since her hands are smaller, she doesn't have
    to deal with the issues of her fingers being too large. The CZ-101
    has keys that are either ON or OFF, nothing else, again, since she
    plays both the piano & synth, it doesn't make any difference to
    her, since she knows that there are things that would be nice one
    place that are not available (at times) at the other.
    
    So, I suggest that you pick either a used piano, or a synth. If
    the smaller keys bother you, go for one with normal sized keys.
    If you get one where the keys are more sensitive to the player,
    thats a plus, but, I don't feel that it's a nessessity for a beginner.
    If what ever you buy is MIDI, then at a later time, you can get
    another keyboard (a year of so down the line, when you are sure
    that the need warrents the cost) that has what ever you want on
    it. 
    
    I tend to buy a lot of used gear. I can live with 3 year old
    technology, since I can still make music on it, and I can live
    with the limitations, especially if I save some money on it.
    
    The music is the issue, not the technology.
    
    						Jens

    Re .11:
    
    Bear in mind that 7 year-olds are notoriously fickle in their
    musical tastes.
    
    Richard ��

    I don't know. She at least follows whats written on the paper. Thats
    better than I do most of the time.
    
    							Jens

>   Do you play it's [ESQ-1's] keyboard or play it from your RD-300
    
    Well... both really.  It's a complicated thing.  Some things feel
    more comfortable on one, others are more comfortable on the other.
    Sometimes it's strictly a configuration/performance thing/limitation.
    
    I think if your just starting to learn keyboards, the subtle
    differences in action aren't going to matter that much.  In truth,
    it's hard for me to say that because I am somewhat of a purist,
    but I believe it's true.
    
    I also think that if you can't can't afford both a good controller
    and a good synth NOW, get the synth now and the controller later.
    
    If you buy something like an RD, you run the risk of the kid getting
    bored - both with the sounds, as well as with the limitation of
    only being able to produce what you can play (not being able to
    assemble more complicated things with the sequencer).
    
    If the kid has any potential for long-term interest in music, 
    he/she will be enthralled with ESQ-1.  I don't think this is nearly
    so true for something like a MIDI controller or dedicated synth.
    
    With the ESQ-1 they can assemble pieces using the (multi-timbral)
    synth, fool around with making noises by programming the synth,
    and all of this serves to (secretly) improve their ears, their musical
    minds, and their fingers.

    What can I say?  I think the ESQ-1 is one of those rare products...
    
    	db

    
    On the feel side of things,  I would much prefer the piano feel  than
    any spongy synth.  In fact I remember playing db's  ESQ  and  300.  I
    was always getting into trouble for messing up the MIDI configuration
    so I could play the ESQ through the 300.
    
    Also,  for the learning experience I think that the piano feel is  im- 
    portant.  It is easier to move to a synth later.  Kind of  like  type-
    writers,  but no one uses the manual ones anymore.
    
    Lastly,  I am one of those people that uses the whole  keyboard,  and
    I think that anyone who is learning and playing classical  music  (as
    well they should be) will find that 61 or 73 keys will leave  them  a
    bit short.  I often bang my left pinky on the mod wheel  of  my  DX-7
    trying to get to those last few notes that aren't there.
    
    _sjz

    
    Well some more good inputs, thanks.
    
    After some poking in my local Daddy's(Nashua), and talking with
    the teachers, and reading your input, a piano action is it. The
    synth key action is to me very soft. I like the action of the digital
    pianos I saw better.
    
    The Roland and Yamaha DPs seem to be excellent pianos, good sounds,
    actions, but they co$t a bundle. And they only do the classical
    piano, harpsicord, etc.
    
    I did see/read about/play a DP made by KORG, the DP2000c.
    This instrument seems to fill the bill. 
    It has a nice action, not as good as the Yamaha but still nice. 
    It is 76 keys, velocity sensitive.
    It has 30 voices plus a ROM card port for more. KORG currently
    has 3 cards each with 30 voices, with more coming.
    16 note polyphony on all the voices. 3 stage EQ, a metronome,
    a 5000 note 2 track sequencer with editing/overdub etc., full MIDI,
    builtin speakers, headphone jack, pedals, stand, line in/outs etc 
    and it looks good besides.
    
    The piano sound is not like the Roland or Yamaha. But it is much better
    than I expected, and the ROM cards supposedly have other piano sounds
    (a simple matter of programming) And the EQ helps quite a bit. 
    The handout says it uses FM technology. The remaining built in voices
    are very nice, the e-piano, synth sound, bells, stand out(but I am
    beginner in this).
    
    The salesman did not know(would not say) the list price.
    Daddy's wants $1199 which is more than I want to spend but I could
    if needed. LaSalle's $1400. Sam Ash $1050 plus you pay UPS.
    I have not called Wurly yet. I would have gone to the open house but
    I had a father-daughter girl scout thing that night.
    So where are the good places?
    
    And I am still looking for used gear. But the stuff I have seen so
    far has been junk. Old, beaten up, missing pieces.
    
    Rich.

    Re: old, beaten-up, missing pieces:
    	
    	Replacement pieces can be had for a pittance; a new white or
    black key for an ESQ-1 or Roland goes for less than $20, including
    UPS Blue Label shipping. 
    	                            
    	So, just because a keyboard has a missing knob or cracked key,
    don't walk away.  You can probably get an excellent price on it,
    as most consignees (and some music stores- who should know far better)
    don't realize just how available even the cosmetic parts are!
                                    
    	Only Guitar (Albany, NY) stocks Roland and Ensoniq replacement
    pieces.  Phone is (518)371-1232.