Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Well, so far not much luck.  The music store told me to go to Yamaha.
    Yamaha told me to go to the publisher.  The publisher told me to
    go to the book store.  The bookstore told me to go to the music
    store.  'But, I've already been there and they don't have it.'
    'So, go to the publisher ...'  (Gee, doesn't anybody want my money?)
    So, I went back to the publisher 'This is Ted.  I'm not in right
    now but if you'll leave a message ...'  Okay, so I left a message.
    By the way, the publisher's number is (414) 774-3630 and you have
    to talk to Ted if you want to order a book and you're just a lowly
    just-wanna-buy-one-book customer.  I left my name and number on
    the machine.  He's not in yet.  I'll probably try again tomorrow.
    
    Steve
    

    
    GREAT. Im still stumped on the lead-guitar thing....
    
    I wonder if you entered those patches in some note
    if anyone would tell on you.
    
    not me.
    
    ron
    

    Well, success!  I finally talked to Ted *in person*.  Gee, his
    answering machine and I were on a first-name basis already.  Anyway,
    I ordered the book and put it on my card.  It costs $19.95 plus
    whatever other charges they want to stick on.  By the way, Sal has
    another book entitled _FM Theory and Application_ which sounded
    interesting, but focuses on the DX7, so I wasn't interested.  My
    guess is that it'll probably have some repetition.  So, *at last*
    those great patches are on their way!
    
    By the way, I'll probably xerox off the stuff I need and make the
    copy available to anybody who wants to 'borrow' it.  Mind you, I
    wouldn't suspect for ONE MINUTE that any of you would COPY any of
    the stuff.  All I'll ask is that you provide the means for pickup
    and TIMELY return with some assurance that I'll get it back in good
    condition.  I'll plan on posting a review when I get the book and
    try out some of the stuff ...
    
    Steve_who_now_anxiously_awaits_Commusic_IV_*and*_Sal's_book

Well, _Expressive FM Applications_ came today.  It includes a cassette tape
which has all those great sounds and a data dump at the end.  I loaded the
patches into my TZ and fired it up.  The first thing I had to do was change
EG BIAS to 0 on most of the voices I was interested in.  Otherwise, they
made no sounds.  No big deal.  The illustrations are very good, but there
is a big-time catch.  In order to make the more spectacular sounds work Sal 
tweeks the parameters of an SPX 90 and an REV 7.  If you don't have these two
pieces of equipment, you're pretty much out of luck.  It would appear that 
this equipment is just as critical as the TZ if not more so.  In fact, the TZ 
adjustments are simpler than many of the presets.  Most of the frequencies are 
set to 1.00.  Feedback is usually set to 7.  Mostly sine waves (wave 1), an 
occasional wave 3, and sparse use of the other waveforms are used.  So, the TZ 
is probably not being used to its potential here.  

On the up side, there is good variation in envelopes and good notes on how to
customize sounds.  Mostly it involves turning off all but voice 1, then turning
on each of the other voices and varying output levels to color the sound.
I'm going to have to play with this a lot to get satisfactory results using
the MVII along with maybe a little TZ reverb.

Anybody who buys a WX7 will be disappointed if they hope to get the spectacular
sounds of the demo tape unless they have both an SPX 90 and an REV 7.  It is 
in using all of this equipment that Sal has done wonders to get the more 
exciting voices.  There are also other patches, but these are on the order of 
the presets.  My guess is that Yamaha wants you to buy the WX7, then hear the 
tape with the book, then be disappointed unless you also get an SPX 90 and an 
REV 7.

By the way, the tape includes data for voices and performance for the TZ, but
not the DX7II even though the patches are listed for the DX7II.  Most of the
voices developed for the TZ resemble the voices for the DX7II.  For matching
patches, the parameters for the TZ (4-op) and the DX (6-op) are very different,
but the parameters for the SPX 90 and REV 7 appear the same.

I'd say I had a pretty good $20 lesson.  I don't regret getting the book.  It 
is good as a primer on how to develop your own patches.  


Steve

    I think I'm just a little irked at this. Was I alone in thinking
    that use of *only* a TZ and the wind controller (plus a little
    reverb as is standard on any recording) would allow me to get those
    great sounds?
    
    Steve, do you know if any of these sounds would respond to BC-1
    controller info??? Probably, yes...
    
    Edd

    Most of the sounds respond to BC input.  I twiddled the BC bias
    to get them to sound.  And, twiddling doesn't get the desired
    responses.  I think that most of the magic occurs in the other gear.
    Sal really doesn't do that much with the TZ.  However, I'm starting
    to use his techniques on the presets instead of the patches he gives
    and am having much better luck, so it's not all in vain.  But, like
    others, I was led to believe that the magic was in the TZ and the
    WX7.
    
    Steve

    I did the same thing a few years ago.  Heard this dude doing a smokin'
    lead on an ARP Odyssey ... sounded JUST like a hot lead guitar! 

    I eventually scarfed one up, only to find that the "hot screaming
    guitar" was not a result of the synth, but of the Ampeg v4 head that
    the synth was plugged into.

-b

    re: -.1
    
    Makes me even happier that I didn't spring for the WX7!
    
    Steve

    I don't understand. Has anyone tried the patches *with* the WX7
    that they (as I understand it) were specifically designed for?
    
    Why would you expect the same effect(s) using a keyboard?
    Or did you use a WX7? 
    
    And if you did, CAN I TRY IT??????????????   :-)
    
    Rodney M_who_sees_a_wind_controller_in_his_future
    

    I've loaned the stuff to Ron Ross.  I suppose that he will also
    be able to give his opinions.  The sounds will not be much different
    if the WX7 is used.  The purpose of the WX7 is to give velocity,
    aftertouch/breath-control, sustain, and pitch information.  I can
    do this with my keyboard (constant velocity) except for the 
    breath-control stuff, which is why I have to adjust the BC bias.  
    'Course, I'd be tickled pink if adding more variation in velocity
    or something did the trick, but I doubt it would.  You are welcome to 
    borrow the stuff after Ron is done with it.  He should be getting it
    all back to me by Monday.  What I suspect is that somebody with an SPX
    90 will probably come close to getting the sounds on tape. An MVII
    should be able to approximate the functions of the REV 7, but even
    here since Sal is diddling with the parameters of the REV 7 there may 
    be some more tricks he's using.
    
    Steve

    RE: .10 by ECADSR::SHERMAN "No, Rodney.  That's *old* science! ..."
    
    No, I meant I wanted to try the WX7, if you had one, not the
    synth/Tx81z setup.  *Does* anyone out there have a WX7, or a midi
    wind controller of any sort?
        
    BTW, I *know* it's old science, but it's the only science I got.
    Ya' don't have to keep picking on me!   :-).
    
    Rodney_of_old_science_fame
    

        
>    BTW, I *know* it's old science, but it's the only science I got.
>    Ya' don't have to keep picking on me!   :-).
>    
>    Rodney_of_old_science_fame
    
Actually, that's from the show 'Dr. Science'.  But, so's I don't offend
you, I'll change my profile ... :^

Steve

    I heard a WX7 driving an FB01.  It sounded smoother than I had
    expected.  The guy was playing some really scalar, ``sax-like''
    licks, and the result was quite fluid.  I thought it was
    going to be really choppy.
    
    It seems like viable control idiom for MIDI synths after all.
                              
    Steph

Does Sal's book say in detail what exactly he is doing with the REV7?  An
equally capable effect box should be able to at least get close to the same
sounds.  And it also sounds like he uses pretty simple patches on the synth,
so again the same technique should be applicable even without using the
same model he did.

    Sal does list the parameters diddled with on the REV7.  Though these
    are probably not as critical as the SPX90 parameters, I suspect
    they are critical.  I would really like to see what could be done
    with a TZ, SPX90 and MVII/MicroVerb.
    
    Steve

    I put a note under another topic. It seems like I'm the only guy
    around that actually has a WX7. The earlier comment that was made
    about the patches and the demo record not being close is absolutely
    true. If only I had another $2000 worth of effect, I could get the
    WX7 sounds. The patches are interesting though and I am fairly happy
    with the WX7. It is not an axe that you can just pick up and play.
    It does require some woodsheding. I don't know if the patches in
    the book are any better than any of the other 1000 or so DX7 sounds
    I have. You would be better off spending the $20.00 for a few hours
    of connect time on Compuserve or Genie and downloading patches if
    all you wanted was sounds. 
    
    If you want to hear a WX7 tied to a DX7 or FB01, call me.
    
    Geoff 
    

    I recently bought the "expressive FM app." book recently, though
    only for the enclosed data patches. After some diddling with them
    to work on my midi guitar + TZ81z, I came to the conclusion that
    I had wasted another $20 . I would rather use straight presets than
    the absolute trash that was on that tape.......unhappy rich
    

    Hey, you *didn't* waste the BIG bucks on the FX boxes you need for
    those sounds.  I figure the $20 was well spent, but that's partly
    why I posted my reviews ... so nobody else would waste the $20 on 
    it.  But, don't feel bad.  I once heard that the best setup includes
    a digital synth (LA, PD, FM or wavetable), a sampler and an analog synth.
    I'm starting to appreciate the wisdom in that ...
    
    Steve

    LA, PD, FM and Wave Table - I've just reached that stage & I have to
    agree they all seem to have something the others don't have.

    There is nothing I enjoy better than hand entering a dozen or so patchs
    only to find that they are worthless. I entered around 30 or so on my
    CZ-101 one evening and all were dogs (actually barking dogs would have
    been better). Thanks for the warning.

	Jens_whose_brain_is_nearing_technology_overload_levels_with_all_of_
	this_wonder_sounding_nightmare_on_elm_street_documentation_and_
	mish_mosh
	

    Thanx Steve, for trying to console me. I spent $30 recently
    for some Angel City patches which were absolutely the best i've
    heard on the TZ. I thought these would be in the same catagory.
    					not_so_unhappy_rich

I am not so interested in these books as sources of patches, but for an
explanation of how one goes about developing FM patches.  Maybe the book with
more emphasis on DX7 is better.  But I don't need to read about how one
goes about developing weenie-patches-suitable-only-for-postprocessing.
Are either of these books good on that score?

    Sal's book does hardly *any* TZ parameter tweeking.  Most of it
    is in the post-processing, and even that is terribly imprecise.
    
    Steve

>    Sal's book does hardly *any* TZ parameter tweeking.  Most of it
>    is in the post-processing, and even that is terribly imprecise.
>    
>    Steve
>

I'm confused here.  Maybe it is the fact that it is midnight Saturday/Sunday
and I'm brain dead but the patches are new patches, right?  So he tweaked
all the parameters to create a patch.  They aren't just tweaked presets are 
they?  Sorry to be picky but I'm having a hard time understanding this just
now...

Chad

    I have Sal's book and believe the "secret" is running the same patch
    in MONO mode and de-tuning it in the performance memory.
    
    Soaking the strings in reverb (MVII #24) really makes the patchs
    sound pretty good. At least the string patches...
    
    Edd

    re:.22 
    
    My comment had to do with what Sal does.  Yup, the patches are 'new',
    but if you take a close look, you'll realize that what he is doing
    is reducing the patches to their simplest forms (very little tweeking
    of parameters in comparison with just about any of the presets).
    Then, he relies on the outboard FX to make it sound good.  'Course,
    I don't have Sal's book anymore, so ....  (sigh)
    
    Steve

For the most part, I found the patches in Sal's book not very interesting, or 
even very good. I have taken some of the presets and some patches I pulled off 
of Compuserve and Genie and made them a lot more useful with my WX7. 

Some ideas for what it's worth:

1. Many sounds can be made expressive by changing the parameters EG Bias 
sensitivity in the sensitivity section and the Breath control EG bias setting  
in the function section. On some patches I will use the maximum setting so 
that the patches track like a real wind instrument. In others I will use a 
setting of about halfway so that I always get a minimum level of sound, but I 
still can get some control over sound and volume. The latter is good with 
strings so that I get some minimum level and still can play with the volume 
and tone of the sound.

2. Using the above can have different effect on carriers and modulators. Using 
the technique on the carrier controls the overall volume, the modulator 
control the volume - blow harder and change the sound. Can get reel 
interesting.

3. Some sounds have long decay times. Those don't work well with rapid 
playing. I have changed the decay times so that they drop off quickly and use 
reverb to fill in the spaces.

4. The interaction of the breath control with the LFO parameters is sometimes 
too strong and needs to be reduced. Blow too hard and too much modulation is 
introduced into the voice. Edit the LFO section of the voice.

5. Since most of the time only one or two notes are being played, use 
peformance memories to fatten up the sound. I've also used it to emulate 
multiple instruments by assigning different instruments to different parts of 
the WX7 - not every tune needs a 7 octave range.

6. Key velocity sensitivity needs to be watched. For me, its a lot easier to 
blow harder than to hit a keyboard hard (too much time in sales and marketing 
- lots of hot air). Being a sax player, I tend to want the thing to respond 
like my Selmer saxes. In some ways, given the right patch, the WX7 does 
better.

On Sal's book, as said earlier, most of the effects stuff is real vague. I 
use a DSP128 as an effects unit and I am still figuring out how to use it. If 
someone can translate REV7 (?) to DSP128, that might help. The patches 
themselves are a waste. 

Geoff

Note:  Any comments I make about the WX7 are for the controller only.  I don't
have a TX81Z or any FM stuff.  In fact, the only other Y* stuff I have is the
sampler (TX16W).

I am trying to practice every day.  NOt being a reed player is sometimes
frustrating because I don't know every fingering etc.  But it allows me
a bit more freedom in my thinking so that I am not trying to imitate
a real sax or clarinet.

Chad