Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    Hm. Is the pf85 REALLY a sampler? Thought it was FM.
    
    Just_piano sampler? Well you have all the guts of 
    a sampler with ROM not RAM, and no disk. $495?
    sounds too low.
    
    extra rom is cheep, so you probably would produce
    a multiple instrument (piano,clav,rhodes) in the
    package. 
    
    Mks-20 is that. But its more like $1300. Maybe its
    overpriced, but thats the art.
    

    Watch for a standard Roland "trick", which is to dramatically cost
    reduce something but also strip out a certain amount of quality
    or features.  Witness the SRV-2000 to DEP-5 transition, or the D-50/
    D-550 to MT-32, or TR-707 to TR-505, etc..  Usually their first
    product of the series is the flagship, and while followons may be
    cheaper, they often don't do as much or do it as well.  I'd expect
    a "cheapified" MKS-20 to exhibit the same effect.
    
    len.
    

    Re .1
    
    I thought that the Pf80 was FM sounds but that the Pf85 was some
    version of sampling ... AW or something like that?
    
    -Jim
    
    The 'rumors' mentioned in .0 were from talking with people at LaSalles
    and at Daddy's.  I've heard from at least 3 sources that some form
    (who knows what quality of sound) of piano modules were due out
    'real soon' ... 

	Yeah, the Pf85 is a sampled piano, not FM.  Yam's Advanced Waveform
Sampling - same as in the new sampler they're introducing.

	Regarding Roland, ya gotta admit, though, that even if they put out a
fraction of the MKS-20's features, as long as the basic pianos are there, $495
is a great price!

	Dan

>    Just_piano sampler? Well you have all the guts of 
>    a sampler with ROM not RAM, and no disk. $495?
>    sounds too low.
Not really.  Witness the HR-16.  All the guts of a 16 bit sample player
with 1 Meg of ROM, (just about) no RAM, and no disk.  In the same
price range...

Todd.

    From MUSIC TECHNOLOGY mag:
    
    The Yamaha TX1P (could be TXIP, can't tell from the print type used)
    is a digital piano sound module using AWM (Advanced Wave Memory)
    sounds. It has a full 88-note range, so it is compatible with 88-key
    controllers. It is 16 note polyphonic. Five kind of sounds are
    available: two pianos, one electric pianao, harpsichord and
    vibraphone. It also comes with a note limit function, a unique
    arpeggio effect and a stereo chorus.

    Could this be what you're talking about?
    
    Rodney M.

    Re .6
    
    Price on this new Y-word gadget?!

    Re .7
    
    There wan't any price mentioned.  This was contained in an article
    on new stuff shown at the Tokyo Music Fair last October; no prices
    were quoted.
    
    Since I have the mag here work, here are some of the other products
    mentioned:
    
    KORG 707 Synth: 49-key performance synth, velocity/aftertouch, FM
	 	    based.

    ROLAND S550 Sampler: Rackmount S50, but with twice the memory and a mouse.
    		 "In fact, to put it simply, the S550 is the equivalent
    		 of two S50's in a box.
    
    CASIO VZ1 Synth (prototype): Uses a newly-developed synthesis method
   		called LSI 2. You make sounds with it by compiling modules,
    		(whatever that means).
    
    KAWAI R50e Drum Machine: R50 with new sounds, including bass.
    
    Yamaha RX5 Drum Machine: Younger brother of of the RX5, but with
    		100(!) preset sounds, including bass and guitar.
    
    TOA	MR8T Recorder: An eight track CASSETTE recorder. Tape speed
    		of 9� cm/sec. DBX, 8 inputs, can record on all 8 tracks
    		simultaneously, 8 outputs (in addition to stereo outputs)
    		that can be used with an external mixer. Sync IN/OUT.
    
    The Future is waiting...
    
    Rodney M.

>    CASIO VZ1 Synth (prototype): Uses a newly-developed synthesis method
>   		called LSI 2. You make sounds with it by compiling modules,
>    		(whatever that means).
 
    Argh, I can see it now...
       
    $ DIR [SYNTH.CASIO.VZ1]
    
              BRASS.OBJ;1     (RWED)
              BRASS.EXE;1     (RWED)
              BASS4.OBJ;1     (RWED)
              BASS4.EXE;1     (RWE)   (preset)
              VIOLA.OBJ;216   (RWED)
              VIOLA.EXE;216   (RWED)  (Solo strings are tuff...)
                   .
                   . 
                   .       
          Total of 64 patches, 28 instruments.
    
    Edd
   

    >< Note 1183.9 by JAWS::COTE "I am, I cried! (I'm not, I lied!)" >
>                     -< Can't I ever leave this place???? >-
>
>>    CASIO VZ1 Synth (prototype): Uses a newly-developed synthesis method
>>   		called LSI 2. You make sounds with it by compiling modules,
>>    		(whatever that means).
> 
>    Argh, I can see it now...
>       
>    $ DIR [SYNTH.CASIO.VZ1]
>    
>              BRASS.OBJ;1     (RWED)
>              BRASS.EXE;1     (RWED)
>              BASS4.OBJ;1     (RWED)
>              BASS4.EXE;1     (RWE)   (preset)
>              VIOLA.OBJ;216   (RWED)
>              VIOLA.EXE;216   (RWED)  (Solo strings are tuff...)
>                   .
>                   . 
>                   .       
>          Total of 64 patches, 28 instruments.
>    
>    Edd
>   
My directory already looks like this, except I use CMS, and the executables
    are called .SAV for RT.

Elements in DEC/CMS Library STD:[JANZEN.SYNTH]

A440.MAC      "NOT REALLY 440, MORE LIKE F BELOW IT"
ALL.MAC       "wave, all harmonics equal"
BALLGA_SCORE.MAC "include file for ballgame tune"
BASSON.MAC    "BASSOON WAVE"
CATER.MAC     "CATERPILLAR BLUES"
CLARNT.MAC    "CLARINET"
CORNET.MAC    "CORNET WAVE"
DUOS.MAC      "DUOS TO WEBERN"
HORNF.MAC     "FORTE HORN WAVE"
HORNP.MAC     "PIANO HORN WAVE"
ISAMPL.MAC    "MACRO SUBROUTINE FOR SAMPLING THROUGH ADC CHANNEL 0"
JINGLE.MAC    "JINGLE BELLS"
NOISE.MAC     "Random numbers will alias, but that may not matter"
OBOE.MAC      "oboe wave"
OND.MAC       "on d score"
SACRE.MAC     "RITE OF SPRING INTRODUCTION"
SAMPLE.FOR    "FORTRAN program that links to isample.mac to get a wave from ad 0"
SAWTUT.MAC    "saw tooth around zero"
SCALE6.MAC    "SIX OCTAVE SCALE"
SINE.MAC      "sine wave around zero"
SONG.MAC      "last working probably from eckhause"
SQUARE.MAC    "square wave around zero binary"
STEREO.MAC    "STEREO SYNTHESIS PROGRAM, 2 VOICES"
SUITE.MAC     "BACH CELLO SUITE SCORE"
SYNTH.MAC     "SYNTHESIZING PROGRAM WITH .INCLUDE SCORE, SCALE, WAVTBL"
TRIANG.MAC    "triangle wave around zero"
VIOLIN.MAC    "VIOLIN WAVE"
    tom

    what? no Karplus-Strong?
    
    rr
    

    Slightly more concrete rumors on digital pianos ...
    
    From the guys at LaSalle's in Boston.
    
    Several (about 1/2 dozen) new digital sampled (or some variation
    on sampling) piano modules due out in the near future.  A Yamaha
    PF85 equiv for around $800, another Yamaha unit for under $400.
    Several other manufacturers expected to release digital pianos for
    the $400-$1000 price bracket.  Still no exact details, release dates,
    exact prices yet ...
    
    -Jim

    I heard a rumor that Korg is going to come out
    with a rack-version of their DP- concert-grand series.
    Anybody else heard this one?  I wouldn't mind getting
    my hands on one of those!!
    

    Info gleened from the Roland User Group Magazine:
    
    Roland P-330 - single space rack mount digital piano module
    
    Uses S/A synthesis (same as RD series and MKS-20)
    
    Looks like the same presets as on the RD pianos.  16 note polyphonic.
    Has built in tremolo, chorus and EQ.  I heard that the EQ was only hi
    and low, no mid like on the MKS-20. 
    
    Looks like the major difference between this and the MKS-20 is no
    cartridge for saving paramters and no mid parametric EQ.  No a real
    big deal but I remember KMII saying he used the EQ on the MKS-20
    to make the piano sounds more realistic.
    
    Price was not listed, but my contact at Daddy's said $1195 list price,
    they will sell it for $995.  Do not take that as gospel. Shipments to
    begin within a month. 
    
    I would have prefered $500, but I'll take less than $1000.  Mail
    order price should be even lower.

    			Derek

    Latest I've heard ...
    
    Korg P-3, costing about $800-$900, same sounds as Korg's other pianos
    
    Yamaha TX1P, list $895, same 5 sounds as the PF85
    
    Roland P-330, list $1395, same 8 sounds as the MKS-20
    
    (I haven't SEEN any of these in the stores, yet, however ...)
    
    -Jim

    This arrived over USENET last night.  Note the *prices* at the
    bottom!!!
    
>I just went by MIDI City this weekend and heard the new Korg P3 piano module.
>The P3 had the BEST piano sound I have heard so far, even when compared
>to the Kawai MIDI Grand on the other side of the store.
 
Um, are you saying the P3 had a better sound than a real grand piano?
 
The P3 is essentially the Kong Concert Grand in a box; it has 16 voices and
three sounds. It lists for $750, and has been selling very close to that. The
Roland MKS-20 is the RD-1000 in a rack mount, and the P-330 is a lower cost
version. Both use Roland's SA synthesis. They list for around $2000 and $1400,
respectively. The Yamaha TX1P is the sound generator from the Clavinova and
PF-85; it lists for around $800. The other alternative is the Kurzweil 1000EX
or 1000PX, which list for around $1900 and $2200, respectively. 
 
I found the Korg P3 sound to be an excellent multisample (same as in the
SGX-1), very low noise, but lacking in the little details that distinguish the
Yamaha and Kurzweil sounds. I also thought the sound was a bit harsh. The Ro-
land MKS-20 sounds are terrific, but don't sound much like a real piano. The
Kurzweil is stunning in its authenticity and clarity, but somewhat impared by
a couple of audible sample break points. The Yamaha is also impressive for its
authenticity, but crippled by excessive digital noise (12 bits samples, I'm
guessing).
 
The search for the perfect digital grand continues.
 

Korg P3		$874 Retail	$525 Sam Ash	$611 locally
Yamaha TX1P	$896 Retail	$627 Sam Ash	$629 locally

    ("Locally" is L.A.)
    
     

>The Roland MKS-20 sounds are terrific, but don't sound much like a real
>piano.

    agreed
        
>The Kurzweil is stunning in its authenticity and clarity, but somewhat 
>impared by a couple of audible sample break points. 
    
    vehemently disagree !
    
    karl

    Does anyone know which stores in the greater Massachusetts/NH area
    carry Korg? I would like to try out the new P3 but don't know where to
    go...
    
    		Thanks,
    		Derek 
    
    

    
    I went to Daddy's in South Nashua.  They didn't have one.  In  fact  he
    never heard of it.   But I pushed him and he looked it up anyway.  Sure
    enough they carry it.  he just didn't have one in the store.  He called
    another store and it is supposively supposed to arrive to today for pub-
    lic consumption.
    
    He did say call before you come over to try it out,  just to   be  sure
    that the truck arrived and that it was indeed on the truck.
    
    _sjz.

    I bought a Korg mixer from Union; dunno what else they carry...
    
    Edd

    
    This seems like a good place for this. Anybody know anything about
    the Yamaha EMT-10 Sampled piano module? Has anyone seen or heard
    one?
    
    Mike D

	Yeah, I've had one for about a year now; I use it along with my
Clavinova (that's what it's designed for). It has had rave reviews in the UK 
from various mags and I tend to agree with them.

  Basically, it is a box of samples (12 if I remember correctly) with 2 pianos 
and 2 electric pianos amongst them. The piano sounds are a bit gritty as they 
fade but it isn't really THAT bad.

  It retails for �250:00 in the UK; want to know anything else?

				Andy B.

    I have one connected to my PF2000.
    
    It contains 2 piano's,2 electric piano's,a very nice harpsichord,a
    chorous,guitar,base,electric base,slap base.
    You can combine one of the first 7 with one of the last three.
    One can change the sound to bight or mellow and the attack to slow or
    fast.
    Lots of midi features settable.
    
    It all sounds pritty good and is really....cheap.
    
    Mari

    
    re .22 and .23. Someone (Andy) asked if I wanted to know anything
    else. Yes, a couple of questions. 
    
    The bass sounds: 1) do they let you play more than one bass note at a time?
                     2) will the bass notes (all the sounds on the module?)
                        respond to MIDI pitch-bend information?
                     3) do the bass notes have a separate output?           
                     4) can the bass notes be assigned to a separate
                        MIDI channel?
    
    Generally: 1) How many simultaneous voices will it sound ?
               2) re .22, is that 250 pounds for a new one?
               3) Which sounds are the best, which are the worst (opinion)?
               4) Is it a rackmount?
               5) do you think $350 (American) is a good price for a
                  used one?
    
    Mike D

RE < Note 1183.24 by MAY26::DIORIO "Cellulite Heroes never really diet" >

	I haven't tried these out but once, and not very thoroughly.  I can tell
you, though, that I have heard of these going for as low as $315 new.  Don't ask
me to remember where, but I know it was some mail-order place.

	Dan's Law:  If it was sold at a certain low price once, it can be sold 
at that price again.

	Dan

    
    Thanks Dan. I sure would like to hear one of these.
    
    Mike D

>>< Note 1183.24 by MAY26::DIORIO "Cellulite Heroes never really diet" >
>>                   -< Just a few questions (< a million!!) >-

    
>>    re .22 and .23. Someone (Andy) asked if I wanted to know anything
>>    else. Yes, a couple of questions. 


O.K. here goes.....

    
>>    The bass sounds: 1) do they let you play more than one bass note at a
time? 

 Two bass notes at once if you use bass along with another sound (the unit is 
actually 8 note polyphonic but when using a bass sound with another it is 
split 2 + 6; i.e. 2 bass + 6 other. Obviously, you can just have bass sounds 
coming out of the unit, in which case you get 8.

>>                     2) will the bass notes (all the sounds on the module?)
>>                        respond to MIDI pitch-bend information?

No. The MIDI implementation is not geared to the "pro" market. One bad point 
is that it doesn't respond to MIDI volume information. In fact, the only MIDI 
controllers that it does respond to are the standard piano pedals (soft,
sustain & sustaneto). 

>>                     3) do the bass notes have a separate output?           

No. There is one set of audio outs and one set of audio ins (meant for 
chaining units together - you can set the unit to respond to odd or even MIDI 
notes and, using two, can achieve psuedo-16 note polyphony). The bad point 
here is, while there are what appear to be stereo outs, the signals coming out 
of each "channel" are exactly the same (same in phase and amplitude). This 
point was raised in a recent magazine article in the U.K. (Home & Studio 
Recording, I think).


>>                     4) can the bass notes be assigned to a separate
>>                        MIDI channel?

No, see 2). The MIDI receive channel is global to the unit (not 
multi-timbral).
    
>>    Generally: 1) How many simultaneous voices will it sound ?


8, unless you have two. Then, as I explained above, you can set one to receive 
odd MIDI notes and one to receive even MIDI notes (similiar to the DX11).



>>               2) re .22, is that 250 pounds for a new one?

Yes. It is a budget unit that is not very flexible MIDI-wise but has good 
sounds for the money. This, I believe is its major selling point.

>>               3) Which sounds are the best, which are the worst (opinion)?

Strictly my opinion here-

Sound:

	PIANO 1 : a good, clear grand piano sample that can get piercing if 
	you hammer the keys too hard.

	PIANO 2 : a mellow, soft grand sample that is very good for quiet,
	moody pieces.

	ELEC PIANO 1 : a Rhodes-type electric piano. This one is good for
	Billy Joel numbers!

	ELEC PIANO 2 : A bassier version of ELEC PIANO 1

	HARPSICHORD : This is a bit thin for my liking; anyway I don't play 
	pieces that require a harpsichord!

	GUITAR : A sampled nylon-strung guitar. Used carefully and mixed with
	other sounds (e.g. strings from a DX) can provide a good melody line.

	STRINGS : This is my favourite (being a strings-buff). It has a good
	thick sound that registers well right across the keyboard. The bass
	end is especially good.

	CHORUS : A classic example of a sampled choir. Some notes (E, F#) 
	sound a bit Donald Duck because of the looping used in the samples
	but it has the desired effect on non-musical people (ooh, singing from 
	a box!). Not usable over the entire keyboard range.

	BRASS : My least favourite. Very thin and weak. I don't use this one
	at all.

	BASS Sounds: (can be played along with any of the above or on their 
	own.)

	ACOUSTIC (can't remember the real name!) : a sampled double, bowed 
	bass. Not bad.

	ELEC : A sampled electric bass, a bit better.

	SLAP : A slapped electric bass, better still.

  The bass sounds tend to be a bit variable across the bass end of the 
keyboard but this is due to the looping effects of the sample I think. Note 
that when using the bass sounds, the keyboard is split at F#2.


>>               4) Is it a rackmount?

No. Unless you want to weld some metal onto it!

>>               5) do you think $350 (American) is a good price for a
>>                  used one?

Hard to say. Not much that can get worn in it - so it should keep its price
o.k. However, I would have thought that it could be picked up cheaper new in
the U.S. (as everything seems to be, compared with the U.K.). 

  If you like I could photocopy the review in Home & Studio Recording and send 
it to you (and/or photocopy the manual).

					Andy.

    
    RE -1 Thanks Andy!
    
    You've told me everything I needed to know about
    it. You see, I have an Ensoniq SPM-1 (Sampled Piano Module). So
    I was comparing features to see if I ought to buy the Yamaha unit
    instead (and sell the Ensoniq unit). I know now that I don't want
    to do that, because the Ensoniq unit is rackmount (I like racking
    things as opposed to having another box to find a place for), it
    has 2 voices for bass and 8 for other sounds (10 total if you don't
    use bass), the bass has a separate output and can be assigned to
    a separate MIDI channel, and the piano (and other sounds except
    bass) can be used in stereo as well as mono. 
    
    I'm not saying this as a put-down of the Yamaha unit, so please
    don't take it that way at all. Your unit has some
    good points that the Ensoniq doesn't have (strings, brass, 3 bass
    sounds as opposed to 2, choir, harpsichord), but not quite enough
    for *me* to justify $300+ at this point in time. Too bad...I wish
    that the Yamaha unit responded to pitch bend (the Ensoniq doesn't
    either). I want to be able to bend bass notes to get more realistic.
    
    Sounds like the Yamaha IS a very good unit for the price for someone
    (unlike me) who doesn't already have sampled piano, bass, etc. in
    their setup. I just couldn't get by without an acoustic piano sound
    of some sort in my setup. Until samplers (and sample-based ROM units)
    became cheaply available, I was forced to use synthesized piano
    sounds (or a Fender Rhodes electric piano) on everything. I like
    that electric piano sound too, but NOT in applications where an
    acoustic piano sound is required! I realize that the DX7-type electric 
    piano sound is (or was, recently) the hip/hot/sought-after sound,
    but I never got excited about it. The availability of sampled acoustic
    grand piano sounds in units like yours and mine is really what I've
    wanted and waited for all these years.
    
    Thanks very much for taking the time to write in all the info on
    the Yamaha unit. I'm sure other people besides me will benefit from
    having this information available to them. 
    
    Mike D

	No problem, glad to have been of service (for a change!).