Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    I'm leary of using the phrase DEC, Digital, Digital Equipment Corp.,
    etc., in any endeavor the isn't part of the corporation's business
    plan. (Shane asked me who recommended Profound to me. I answered
    "I work at DEC..." and then went to great lengths to explain that
    I in no way was representing Digital or acting in anything other
    than a personal interest.)
    
    I like the concept. Not the name. At least until if/when we could
    get an 'official' blessing from the legal popes...
    
    Edd

    
    I believe in the beginning, like today, that DECUS (Digital Equipment
    Computer Users Society) has nothing to do and is for the most part in
    no way affiliated with DEC or DEC's business plan.
    
    Zach

	I second the motion on the idea in general.  I also agree that "DEC"
should be left out of it.  I realize that may make it sound less formidable,
but I think the Music noters went through a similar situation concerning their
seasonal jams.  It was determined that they should NOT use DEC or any derivitive
of the name even on an innocent get-to-gether of fellow noters.

	I'd be REAL excited about having stores recognize this group of people
as a whole, though, and provide personal demos...  It'd be nice around tax
return time...

	Dan

    Perhaps we can borrow an idea from the credit union and call it
    the "Digital Employees Computer Music Society".
    
    I don't know whether that distinguishes us sufficiently from DEC,
    but it sure seems beter than the "Digital Computer Music Society."
    
    However, I think the real problem is not with the name, but with
    using company resources (Commusic) to organize and run the group.
    Everything I've heard as a moderator tells me that this isn't
    allowed.

    I DO believe that if we organized ourselves as a group, said group
    is capable of gaining considerable leverage in several areas including
    price and service.
    
	db

    I suggest the slightly more accurate
    
    'Northeastern U.S. Digital Employees Computer Music Society'
    
    y'all's name/clout ain't gonna cut it in Arizona, zum beispiel.
    
    good idea, though !
    
    karl

    During the jam planning sessions it wasn't suggested that we leave
    DEC out of it, it was *mandated*, by corporate legal.
    
    The 'legal smegal' attitude is what gets everyone's ass in a sling.
    
    Edd

>    Perhaps we can borrow an idea from the credit union and call it
>    the "Digital Employees Computer Music Society".

That would make it DEC Music Society without using Digital Equipment
Corporation at all. I like it! I'll talk to legal and see what they
say. When Ken Lindner and I founded the DEC Big Band back in '74-'75
they didn't say anything about using DEC in the name.
    
> However, I think the real problem is not with the name, but with
> using company resources (Commusic) to organize and run the group.
> Everything I've heard as a moderator tells me that this isn't
> allowed.

Other company approved groups use the computer resources constantly.
The bowling, golf, tennis, etc. leagues all use the Enet and computer
resources to keep statistics, accounting, and communications going.

> I DO believe that if we organized ourselves as a group, said group
> is capable of gaining considerable leverage in several areas including
> price and service.

yeah!

   dave

You *might* be able to get discounts, but don't count on it.  DEC employees get
discounts off list when buying computers from several stores, but I bet the
retail computer business is more cut-throat than the retail music business due
to greater competition; there is a computer store on every corner. 

But the important thing might be to remind the store clerk "don't screw this
customer or 100 people will hear about it before tomorrow."  Or on a positive
side, "if you give this guy good service, 100 people will hear about it before
tomorrow."  And these 100 people are not random people of the street, but
people who might be or are already customers.  (But let's not mention any
numbers.  Who knows how many people read this?  Certainly less than 100
actively participate.)

I really do not mind paying store prices for major items *provided* I get all
the alleged long-term benefits that building a relationship with a store is
supposed to have over mail order.  Commodity items, that is something else
(cases of blank tape, etc). 

RE: "substantial buying power"

    (Historical note: I was the initial poster of ProFound's number.)

    The last time I called Shane, he asked me something along the lines of
    "all these guys calling from DEC are keeping me busy!".  He is quite
    impressed at not only the level of knowledge we posess as a group, but
    also of our "negotiating ability" (Dan Eaton was mentioned by name!). 

    Needless to say, we are already a force at ProFound, and I remind Shane
    of my initial network posting every time I call him and want "just a
    little bit better" price.

    Tell 'em you're from DEC or use my name (not in vain).

8-)

    Agreed.
    
    Last night there was no price on the displayed MIDIVerb. I asked
    if the price was $269. He seemed a little shocked and asked how
    I knew that. 
    
    "I work at DEC...".
    
    Many of the stores in the area know how fast a good word spreads.
    Likewise one someone gets shafted. (How many people buy Yamaha
    gear in Worcester??)
    
    We've got an appreciable influence already. (Not saying that a
    formal organization isn't a good idea...)
    
    Edd

    
    
    I for one haven't been to happy with my luck trying to get through
    to Profound.  I've been trying most of the week.  I've left my
    name and number AT LEAST a dozen times, told the woman who answered
    that I wanted to put a deposit on an Alesis HR-16, and buy a
    compresser and possibly a midiverb II.  I also mentioned more than
    several times that I was a DEC employee, but have not heard back
    from them.  Needless to say, I got very frustrated at this, and
    tonight will give my business to a local store that I've been treated
    very well at.
    
    I've never found it so hard to spend money!! :^)
    
    ralph
    
    

    My heart bleeds for ya, Ralph!
    
    	:-)  :-)  :-)
    

    Re: .11
    
    Maybe Shane is overworked or something, but I have had the same luck in
    getting him to call back.  I would rather they told me to call back
    later rather than saying Shane will call me back and never having my
    call returned. 
    
    Regarding special DEC demo sessions: the sax player in my band is
    manager of the Daddy's store in Boston.  I will approach him about
    the subject and see how many people he would like to get at the
    store for a session to make it worth his while.
    
    		Derek
    

Glad to see so much interest!

Here's the official word from Penny Smith at Corporate Legal...

"You may go right ahead and use the name DEC Music Society, as long as
any advertising you do makes it clear that DEC does not stand for Digital
Equipment Corporation, but rather Digital Employees Computer". She is
going to send me official confirmation of this fact by mail.

I am contacting Teresa Cash who is the Shrewsbury Personnel Employee
Activities rep. She was not in today, so I will try again Monday
afternoon. So here's the motion...

I move that we form a group known as the "DEC Music Society"
(aka Digital Employees Computer Music Society). Legal recommends that this
group be limited to Digital Employees only. If any of this group's activities
require legal advice, myself or a suitable representative of the group will
contact Penny Smith, DTN: 223-4293  LEAGLE::PENSMITH for advice. We will have
to limit our contacting of legal because they are extremely busy with official
corporate business.

Please cast your votes yah or nay for the forming of this group and the name
of the group by sending mail to SUBSYS::ORIN. I will post the results in this
note next friday. I hope everybody has a nice weekend and lots of musical
enjoyment.

may you B#, don't Bb

Dave

    
    
    Great idea, good name!
    
    Re: KM and the south west ...
    
    Must be a little different here in the NW. I've found the local lizards
    to be very cooperative when confronted by the fact that there are
    "many" musicians at DEC and then hit over the head with the various
    pricing and mail order information given in this notefile.
    
    It's to the point where when they quote a price, they wait for me
    to tell them what it is in the east, how much the shipping will
    be and how long it will take to get. Then they beat the price, absorb
    the sales tax and so get the sale.
    
    Just telling them there is an electronic communication system (they
    can't understand much more than that level of detail) into which
    is fed good and bad experiences has changed attitudes and prices.
    
    Here in the Seattle area there are between 500 and 600 DEC employees
    spread between DECwest Engineering, the District Office and the
    ACT. Maybe that helps in this case.
    
    Robert
    

I want to make sure that everyone feels welcome to join and participate
in this group. Even if you don't have a computer, keyboard, MIDI studio,
or any equipment what so ever, please join us in fighting back high prices
and poor service. The cost is minimal (none) and hopefully the benefits
are many. The more members we have, the stronger we will be. This is a
consumer's union and common interest group. All musicians and interested
people are invited to become charter members.

happy trails,

Dave

    
    re .6
    
>   The 'legal smegal' attitude is what gets everyone's ass in a sling.
    
    You are obviously not a member of the International Society of Gir-
    affes.  It's for people who are not afraid to stick their neck out.
    See also .14 (I think),  it's legal.
    
    Zach

    
    	Wow, buncha responses since friday only !   Looks like you've
    already sorted out the legal stuff.  There may also be some benies
    available through employee activities, though you may have to register
    with a charter, budget, etc., then they come up with matching
    contributions, or something.  Anyone care to "budget" for the jams
    as employee activities and get dec to chip in the matching half ?  
    I think the charter is best worded to show (primarily) pursuit of
    an interest rather than discount buying clout.

    	Any approaches to dealers could probably describe us as :
    
    " several hundred employees of digital, which employs 100,000 people
    worldwide..."

    	Reg	{ my dec bicycle club card gets discounts too }
    

Why limit it to a computer music society.  How about the society of DEC
musicians in general?  It doesn't have to directly correlate with any one
notes file, although the discussions could be held here.

Organizing it for all musicians within DEC would increase organization
"membership, thus giving us more leverage...

Todd.

I'm for that.  After all, acoustic musicians buy recorders, mixers, etc
too.

    What is the legal reason why this society should be limited to DEC
    employees? I'm a consultant here, and would like to be part of it.
    
    pcv

    
    
    Who says it has to deal with just recorders, mixers, etc.  Why can't
    it work for someone who looking to buy a guitar, or drums, or horns,
    or.....
    
    Opening it up to DEC musicians in general instead of just keyboardists
    and recordists (is that a word?) would make it a much more powerful
    group.  
    
    Ralph
    
    

    Why limit it to musical instrument players?  Why not include
    Canadian Chess players??? After all, they buy hifis.
    Tom

    re: .23
    
    Is this a response to my note? If it is, I think you miss my point.
    Canadian Chess players don't read this notesfile, unless of course
    they are also Canadian musicians with an interest in computer music.
    
    pcv

I notice some belated confusion and dissension creeping into the discussion.
I hoped that note 1168.16 expressed the desire to include everyone who is
interested. The main reason for using DEC Music Society is to at least
associate the idea of a large buying community in the minds of the music
store owners and staff. The main reason for limiting the membership to
DEC employees is because of the "Digital Employees CMS". The usual problem
with trying to accomplish something like starting up this group or a
buyer's union is that there are so many different opinions of how to do it
that it gets dropped due to the logistical hassles. Rather than let it drop,
I will go ahead and form the group as "Digital Employees Computer Music
Society". This title does not limit the membership to buying recorders, mixers,
or any other specific equipment. This was not intentionally implied in any
of the previous notes. I think that it is more of a "noter perception" problem.
Please reread the previous notes carefully, especially 1168.0 and 1168.16

The following people have expressed their desire to form the group as the
"Digital Employees Computer Music Society"...

1. SUBSYS::ORIN            Dave   NKS1-2/H6 100 Nickerson Rd., Marlboro, Ma.
                                  01752 DTN: 291-7094
2. CSC32::MOLLER BARTLS::MOLLER Jens Moller CXO3-2/B5 Colorado Springs,
                                            Colorado.
3. DRUMS::FEHSKENS         Len - LKG1-2/E19, DTN 226-7556
4. GIBSON::DICKENS         Jeff
5. CTHULU::YERAZUNIS       Bill
6. DECWET::BISMUTH         Robert   Seattle
7. AKOV68::EATOND          Dan
8. FROST::HARRIMAN         Paul
9. HPSRAD::NORCROSS        Mitch DTN 297-2030
10. PIXEL::COHEN           Richard
11. NEDVAX::DPOWELL        Dan Powell (VES Product Support 274-6608)
12. DECSIM::BERRETTINI     James
13. SUBSYS::LYNCH          Mike   LEDS NKS-2/H6

Since I have already started the ball rolling with legal and employee activities
it is really too late to start over. I don't think that the name of the group
should be a major limiting factor to the membership. It is "DEC Music Society",
which seems general purpose enough until we start quibbling. We can try to
increase the membership gradually by explaining that this is "only a title"
and does not constitute the charter or goals of the group.

If you reconsider, please send mail to SUBSYS::ORIN.

Dave

ps. It would seem that DEC badges are the best form of identification at the
    stores. Our letter of introduction to the dealers could include names
    and badge numbers if this is acceptable with everyone. As the membership
    grows (hopefully), I will volunteer to act as the "secretary" and keep
    the list updated periodically. The stores and mail order vendors probably
    won't be too picky. If you say the magic words "DEC Music Society" that
    should do it.

    
    Yeah, and we can get Roger Staubach to get us group insurance rates.
    

> Here is the official word from legal...

From:	WITNES::PENSMITH     "PENNY SMITH 223-4293 MSO/M6 LAW DEPT" 28-JAN-1988 13:19
To:	SUBSYS::ORIN,PENSMITH    
Subj:	RE: DEC Music Society

To confirm our conversation last week, there's no problem with using DEC and 
Digital in your name provided it is an employees group, and you don't create 
any confusion about sponsorship, etc. in public uses of the name like posters.

Your other questions really address company policy and are better answered 
by the Personnel Policy Manual and the Employee Activity office.  Good luck!

Penny

>I am trying to contact Bob Clark of employee activities. He won't be back
>until Feb. 4th.
> Here is the revised member list as of just now...

1. SUBSYS::ORIN            Dave   NKS1-2/H6 100 Nickerson Rd., Marlboro, Ma.
                                  01752 DTN: 291-7094
2. CSC32::MOLLER BARTLS::MOLLER Jens Moller CXO3-2/B5 Colorado Springs,
                                            Colorado.
3. DRUMS::FEHSKENS         Len - LKG1-2/E19, DTN 226-7556
4. GIBSON::DICKENS         Jeff
5. CTHULU::YERAZUNIS       Bill
6. DECWET::BISMUTH         Robert   Seattle
7. AKOV68::EATOND          Dan
8. FROST::HARRIMAN         Paul
9. HPSRAD::NORCROSS        Mitch DTN 297-2030
10. PIXEL::COHEN           Richard
11. NEDVAX::DPOWELL        Dan Powell (VES Product Support 274-6608)
12. DECSIM::BERRETTINI     James
13. SUBSYS::LYNCH          Mike   LEDS NKS-2/H6
14. PLAYA::MERLIN          Orlando Saez (DTN 721-2312)
                                    SGO/#5 (San German, Puerto Rico)
                                    Software Engineer (System and Applications)
                                    mfg Nautilus, Calypso and Rigel CPU modules.
15. REGENT::SIMONE         Guido Simone DTN:  223-9580 LOC:  MLO1-3/U51 POLE 34D
16. FIDDLE::CROWLEY        Ralph

A special welcome to our amigo Orlando Saez who describes himself as "another
fevered musician". Ralpy Crowley has a good idea. Why not put an announcement
in the other musical notes files such as DREGS::MUSIC, DRUMS, GUITAR, etc.
I won't have time to monitor all of these notes files, so if someone(s) would
like to volunteer, it would be greatly appreciated.

Please send mail to SUBSYS::ORIN if you are not on this list and would like
to join us.

good vibes,

Dave

Latest list as of 5-FEB-88.

1. SUBSYS::ORIN            Dave   NKS1-2/H6 100 Nickerson Rd., Marlboro, Ma.
                                  01752 DTN: 291-7094
2. CSC32::MOLLER BARTLS::MOLLER Jens Moller CXO3-2/B5 Colorado Springs,
                                            Colorado.
3. DRUMS::FEHSKENS         Len - LKG1-2/E19, DTN 226-7556
4. GIBSON::DICKENS         Jeff
5. CTHULU::YERAZUNIS       Bill
6. DECWET::BISMUTH         Robert   Seattle
7. AKOV68::EATOND          Dan
8. FROST::HARRIMAN         Paul
9. HPSRAD::NORCROSS        Mitch DTN 297-2030
10. PIXEL::COHEN           Richard
11. NEDVAX::DPOWELL        Dan Powell (VES Product Support 274-6608)
12. DECSIM::BERRETTINI     James
13. SUBSYS::LYNCH          Mike   LEDS NKS-2/H6
14. PLAYA::MERLIN          Orlando Saez (DTN 721-2312)
                                    SGO/#5 (San German, Puerto Rico)
                                    Software Engineer (System and Applications)
                                    mfg Nautilus, Calypso and Rigel CPU modules.
15. REGENT::SIMONE         Guido Simone DTN:  223-9580 LOC:  MLO1-3/U51 POLE 34D
16. FIDDLE::CROWLEY        Ralph
17. POOL::VINSEL           Peter
18. TWIN4::DEHAHN	   Chris  STO ECAD SHR
19. CNTROL::GEORGE         Dave George	HL01-1/K10
20. AITG::ARNOLD           John E. Arnold  DLB5-2/B10  291-8011
21. THE780::EVANS          Bruce Evans   Santa Clara
22. HEART::MACHIN          Richard Machin REO F8,
                           above the old mail room,
                           beneath a fire exit sign. x4347
23. MTBLUE::BOTTOM_DAVID   David Bottom   Not so famous rock star Augusta, Maine
                                          ASO/4AC (mailstop) DTN=271-6935
                                          DNEAST::Bottom_david
24. 4TRACK::LAQUERRE       Peter
25. MENTOR::REG            Reg Burgess 	MR01-1/S35 MENTOR::REG
                                        "Not B-M-B '88 disqualified; ...YET
26. FDCV01::ARVIDSON       Dan Arvidson - PKO3-2/K84 - 223-5257 badge # 159431
27. FGVAXZ::MASHIA         Rodney Mashia, Flute Fan, NIO/B9 (Salem, NH)
                                          DTN 261-3704
28. DSSDEV::HALLGRIMSSON   Eirikur Hallgrimsson "Sartorial Satori" DTN 381-0044
                                                 ZKO2-2/M28
29. EVER11::WAKE           Bill Wake
30. CCYLON::ANDERSON       Jim Anderson	DTN 453-2471
31. MIZZOU::SHERMAN        Steve
32. FSBIC::DDREHER         Dave
33. CANDID::STEPH          Stephen W. Bailey  "Steph" Microsystems Advanced
                                             Development MLO3-5/U26 DTN 223-7821
34. DREGS::BLICKSTEIN      Dave Blickstein Mail-stop: ZKO2-3/N30 DTN: 381-2081
35. AQUA::ROST             Brian Rost   MRO1-2/E47 DTN: 297-6289
36. JAWS::COTE             Edd
37. TALLIS::KLOSTERMAN     Steven Klosterman DTN226-6198  LTN1-2/H09
                                             Badge No 136659
38. ULTRA::LARU            Bruce Laru   LTN2-2/C08   226-6555
39. HARDY::JKMARTIN        Jay Martin
40. THE780::MESSENGER      Henry B. Messenger, Santa Clara, CA Software Services
41. OILCAN::DIORIO         Mike D'Iorio   MLO5-5 pole 20D DTN: 223-3782
                                          Mail Address: PKO3-2/H31
                                          LOLITA::DIORIO, PSDVAX::DIORIO
42. THE780::FARLEE         Kevin Farlee Santa Clara, California  

I finally got some results with Employee Activities. I reached Bob Clark, who
gave us the go ahead and referred me to Corporate Employee Activities in
W. Concord. I spoke with Beth Schulz who was very helpful. She will be sending
me the Employee Activities Committee handbook and a charter form. This book
details such things as obtaining funding, use of facilities, policies and
procedures, etc. Perhaps it is time to start developing our charter and
coming up with a letter of introduction to the vendors. Several people have
already volunteered to help in these and other areas. Some people may be
reluctant to take time away from their music to get involved in these
activities. That is understandable, but any ideas and assistance would be
greatly appreciated. We will probably need to establish regional chapters
so that everyone will benefit. So far, we seem to have a North Eastern U.S.
(New England), Western U.S. (Calif.), Rocky Mountain U.S. (Colorado),
North Western U.S. (Seattle), South Eastern U.S. (Phoenix), European (U.K.),
and Puerto Rico. How would you like to proceed?

Here are a few ideas and topics for further thought and discussion. If
you think of others, please contribute in COMMUSIC or send mail to
SUBSYS::ORIN...

1. Charter
2. Letter of Introduction
3. Expanding membership and establishing regional chapters
4. List of dealers and contacts, all types of music and computer related
   equipment, accessories, and services
5. Membership identification cards, stationery, logo, etc.

dave

    re .29	Great job Dave !  I don't know how to help or what you're
    going to need help with, but contact me as the needs arise and I'll
    try to do whatever load sharing is necessary.  DON'T BURN YOURSELF
    OUT by trying to be a one man band on this, I've seen a couple of
    dec clubs fizzle because one person did it all and no one felt they
    could fill the shoes when the prez needed a rest.  Put me on the
    help committee list or whatever, OK ?

    	Some day two digit membership numbers in this will be as treasured
    as 5 digit badge numbers :-^)

    	Reg	{ # 25 }

    
    5 digits....yeah....goes with the grey hairs it seems!
    
    Bravo to dave! I think this deserves applause....
    
    Hey, whens the first meeting of the N.E. chapter, official
    or not....
    
    ron
    

    Lets not forget the convention in Tahiti.
    						
    	Jens_who's_not_too_close_to_New_England

    
    Hey, I tried "DEC Computer Music Society" and it WORKED!
    	                                     
    I called up Technos (on their 800 number, natch!) to ask about their
    new synthesizer (called the AXCEL, it's in the Feb. _Keyboard_ ). 
    I'm not sure if it does Fourier synthesis or neural networks or
    whatever, but it sure looked interesting.
    
    They asked various questions, like who I worked for, to which I
    replied "DEC, but I'm asking for this information for the DEC Computer
    Music Society" (since I am going to post any info).  
    
    They were very cooperative before- now they are super-cooperative,
    and are putting the info in an envelope even as we note!
    	
    I'll post whatever I get.
    	
    	-Bill

    Great job Dave!
    
    At EU Wurlizer's "Grand Re-opening", I told Jack about our Society
    and he was very interested.  I mentioned members Len Feshken's and Dave
    Orin's names as memebers (Two of his favorite customers) and he
    said he would talk to EU Wurlitzer's president about it.  A formal
    letter from the Society would greatly enhance it's bargaining postion.
    
    [Editorial Comment]
    
    One point that we were in disagreement over was devulging names
    of other retailers and mail-order shops when quoting competition's
    prices.  It seems that several large retailers are upset at being
    under-cut by just_over_wholesale pricing by mail-order shops.
    They are putting pressure on Roland to do something about this
    by selling at higher wholesale prices and/or holding back orders
    to these renagades in order to protect thier margins.  Jack
    mentioned that action was taken against Sam Ash.
    
    I suggest that we refrain from giving out the names of such places
    as Profound, Sam Ash, etc., as low prices are in the interest of
    consumers (Society members). 
      
    Dave
     

    re: .34 I second the motion, both Profound sound and East Coast
    Sound warned me about quoting their prices and identifying where
    I got the prices as they had already been pressured by several
    manufacturers to "get in line" or lose their franchises...in the
    long run too much price haggling can cause you to lose...
    
    dave

Why shouldn't a store with lower overhead charge lower prices? Why should the
electronic music instrument business be any different from the PC software,
photographic, department store, or grocery businesses? 

Sounds like restraint of trade to me.

Still, no need to rock the boat.

A general policy might be that the Society exists for the benefit of its
members, not to act as an intelligence-gathering agency for the retail
stores' competitive tactics.  The flow of information should be from the
stores to the Society, not the other way around, at least as regards what
any other store is doing.  Let them hire their own spies.

    OK, I agree not to tell a music store WHO gave me price X. 
    
    Can I tell them that SOMEbody gave me price X?
    
    

    Sure, it's the only leverage you've got. 
    
    You: "I can get this ZX-99 for $100 less..."
    
    Them: "Where?"
    
    You:  "Doesn't matter, but unless you can compete, you don't get
           any of the money...."
    
    Edd

    Well, I hope we avoid a discussion of the ethics involved, but I
    think part of the objection on the part of retailers is that 
    the stores are used as showrooms for the mail-order places.
    
    The idea is that they can't compete with the MO's because they are
    paying for the MO's "showroom" in effect.
    
    I don't think you can even attempt to deny that that happens, perhaps
    even on a grand scale.
    
    For example, in reading the HR-16 note, it's readily apparent
    that many of us are going into places like EUW to get a demo and
    yet have no intention of buying it there because  we know
    that the MO's are offering it for $50 less.
    
    I think it's in our own best interests not to mention the place
    quoting the best price when the place is an MO.  Believe me, the
    retailers carry a lot of weight.  If the retailers decide to drop,
    say Roland because they can't compete with the MO's Roland prices,
    you can bet that Roland is gonna take some action.
    
    Let's try and not contribute to forcing manufacturers to fair-trade
    their stuff.
    
    I.E.  Be cool.
    
    	db
    

    Doesn't Sam Ash have a showroom? (I was led to believe that they
    did...)
    
    I know that my favorite showroom store (in Pittsburgh) has no trouble
    matching Ash's prices, nor Profound's.
    
    Steph

    >    I know that my favorite showroom store (in Pittsburgh) has notrouble   
    >    matching Ash's prices, nor Profound's.                     
     
    Likewise, I've been looking at Octapads (OH NO, you all scream), and
    got a price of $525 from <<showroom store>> Only Guitar (518-371-1232). 
    	
    Half an hour ago, I got a price of $529 from ProFound.  
    
    I didn't leverage the $525 against the $529 either.  I just told Shane
    his prices had already been matched- but not by whom.  Unless Profound
    or someone else can UNDERcut by a significant amount ( > 15% ) I'm
    inclined to go with the showroom store directly.  With a showroom
    store, I can go there and make a scene in front of other customers
    if something is not right....
    	                                                
                               
    Ahhh, the free market system. 
    
                                                     

Hi -

Glad to see the interest level is high. I contacted Beth Schulz again to check
on the EAP info she is sending. It is "in the mail" as of last Thursday. Don't
imagine it went anywhere friday, so I should get it tomorrow. Would anyone
like to volunteer to read it and become our "official company rules" expert?
My work projects are ramping up quickly, and I won't have much free time for
several weeks. I agree about not getting to "cute" about playing the MOs
against the stores.

I find that the stores have at least the following benefits:

1. Tech support, Eddie Fritz at Worcester Wurly is great
2. Free sounds and patches
3. preferred customer treatment in the store for new product demos
4. little known inside info and new product info such as NAMM updates
5. an official rep when returning faulty equipment
6. a last resort trade-in center when you can't sell your non-MIDI Linn Drum
7. a source of used equipment under one roof, the Want Ads is nice, but you
   usually have to drive all over the place to look at stuff, and may not
   be able to try it out if they are selling everything
8. a local business to support with customer services and a showroom
9. free accessories when making major purchases. Whenever I buy a new keyboard
   I always ask for and get a bundle of audio and MIDI cords, free magazines,
   etc. they can literally give away these cheap items, but their official
   discount price is regulated by the store chain owners

dave

    Since I was the first to shoot my mouth off about "official
    company rules" I'll volunteer (unless of course somebody else
    absolutely *insists*....)
    
    Edd

    re .43	Well, of course I don't insist, but I'd be happy to
    share the load with Ya.  We can set ourselves up a sub_committee
    or summat to review 'em, keep minits and such.
    
    	R
    

    re stores vs. mailorder..
    
    I purchased my Emax at Synthony Music in Scottsdale AZ, for ~$200
    more than buying mailorder. In the year since I purchased it, I've
    gone in there 7 or 8 times with formatted floppies and gotten sample
    diskettes worth at LEAST $1000 on the open market.. at $10 each.
    Of course they promised this benefit to me since I gave them a large
    deposit on the Emax rack unit, and it didn't arrive for four months,
    and they felt guilty... And now, since they've been so great with
    me, I may make another purchase there soon.
    
    karl

    
    	re   the last few...
    
    	Like, maybe price isn't the only factor to consider ?
    
    	OK, so what's the hang up with the retail guys ?
    
    	Surely they can distinguish themselves in the market place from
    the mail order dealers ?   "We sell on total support, they sell on
    price alone.  You pay more up front here, but you get more value,
    short and long term.  We're here when you need us."  It shouldn't be
    THAT difficult of a thought to get across, I think its a very weak
    salesman that gives in quickly to the bottom price attack.  If they
    don't know that they're selling more than that, then that's probably
    all they have to offer, so why should we sympathise about the cost per
    sq ft in downtown Wherever ? 

    	Oh, I want it both ways, of course.  Some things I buy mail
    order, i.e. when price is the only thing that matters, for other things
    I want the store behind me.  I don't feel I have to get into the
    retailers' business model and understand that they're hoping to
    subsidize a loss on item x with a fat profit on item y, so its only
    fair to buy the fat profit item there if I'm going in there for the
    blow out sale.  This line would lead me to believe that its immoral
    to shop at Sears only when they have sales and to buy only sale
    items.  This analogy gets worse, I use their sale price as my benchmark
    for comparative shopping elsewhere.
    
    	I don't think its wrong to quote mail order prices, I've done it
    giving a range of prices and a list without saying who gave me which
    price.  I think this is fair and ethical, it lets them know that
    I know the market and it sends the message that price isn't the
    ONLY consideration, but it _IS_ A consideration.  I've been pushed
    a bit as to who gave me the lowest price, but I get kinda vague
    (more than usual) at about that time.
    
	My conclusion is that we will probably need a column for 
    "support, service, value_as_news_source, etc." when rating retailers
    and mail order places.  Everyone can use it differently, of course.
    
    	Reg
    

    Reg,
    
    You've said you don't think it's "wrong" to quote MO prices.
    
    That's an ethical question I have no interest in debating.
    
    I've said that by doing so, it is possible that the retailers will
    be frustrated enough to take some indirect action against the
    MO places (like refuses to carry lines that sell to MO's) that
    will ultimately result in blow to the consumer (higher prices).
    
    Aside from whether it's "right", "wrong", "fair" or "otherwise",
    do you disagree that it's not in our best interests?

    Something like this has happened in this country, btw.  The solution 
    at the time was known as "fair trading".  Timex watches were 
    fair-traded.  In order to sell Timex watches, you had to agree to
    sell them at the same price that everyone else was selling them
    at.
    
    Needless to say, this did NOT benefit the consumers as the fair
    traded price was well above what discounters would normally have
    sold them for.
    
    	db

    
    	Well, how pragmatic is it to quote lower prices without revealing
    the source or giving any clue as to who or what kind of source it
    might be coming from ?  I'd guess not very.  How pragmatic is it
    to get the lowest price WITHOUT quoting what we know the lowest
    offered price to be ? (questions of WHO aside)  Do we just have to resort
    to silent ground standing ?  "Nope, I want a lower price, can't tell
    you HOW low, cos that's quoting, but I'll tell you when you get there."
    How pragmatic is it going to be when Wurlie realizes that the special
    prices they've been offering a few of us are going to be demanded by
    all of us ?  "100,000 people at dec, we gotta give 'em ALL $0.01 over
    invoice now ?"   Maybe we actually get shut off due to our shear
    weight of numbers, who know ?  ('nother subject)

    	At some point we will have to decide if we're serious about
    using our combined purchasing power (err, I think that's what this
    topic is mostly about ?).   I suppose we COULD just canvas everyone for
    their prices ONCE, make up our lists and publish them internally, i.e.
    not go back for better deals in view of what we learn from other
    dealers, but....   I think we'll get a better set of numbers when
    we call back for round two or three, when they KNOW we've called
    everyone else and we're calling THEM again because they're not near
    the top (price bottom) of our list, so how would they like to move
    up a couple of notches ?
    
    	Somehow I can't see a retailer calling up any of the manufacturers
    of anything that's hot and selling to say, "Cut off M/O so and so, he's
    undercutting me.  I won't carrry your line any more if you sell
    to him."    Who's loss ?   Surely the manufacturer is going to take
    care of the outlet that moves the most volume, unlikely to be the
    one that's demanding full list and squawking about "unfair" competition ?
    
    	The Timex thing stinks as bad now as it did then, I doubt they'd
    be able to swing it these days.  Where's Timex now anyway ?  I mean
    relative to Casio...  Oh, lets drop this, PLEASE ?
    
	Reg

>    Well, how pragmatic is it to quote lower prices without revealing
>    the source or giving any clue as to who or what kind of source it
>    might be coming from ?  I'd guess not very.  
    
    Whah???  I am totally missing your point.
    
    WHY do you need to reveal the source?
    
>    How pragmatic is it to get the lowest price WITHOUT quoting what we 
>    know the lowest offered price to be ? (questions of WHO aside)  
    
    I'm not aware of any reason why you shouldn't quote the lowest
    price you've been given, only who gave it to you.
    
>    Maybe we actually get shut off due to our shear weight of numbers,
>    who know ?  ('nother subject)

    From what has been previously said, the threat of action against
    MO's is real and has been considered.  While I suppose retailers
    could tire of giving stuff away cheap to DECMS members, I'm not
    aware that that's happened yet.  ;-)

>    Somehow I can't see a retailer calling up any of the manufacturers
>    of anything that's hot and selling to say, "Cut off M/O so and so, he's
>    undercutting me.  I won't carrry your line any more if you sell
>    to him."    
    
    They needn't say that.  All they need say is "We're not going to
    carry your line cause we can't compete with the MO's."
    
>    Surely the manufacturer is going to take care of the outlet that
>    moves the most volume, unlikely to be the one that's demanding full 
>    list and squawking about "unfair" competition ?
    
    I would think they'd like to preserve their total volume and not
    pick among any high-volume outlet.
    
>    	The Timex thing stinks as bad now as it did then, I doubt they'd
>    be able to swing it these days.  
    
    Oh yes, that could never happen here.  ;-)

>   Oh, lets drop this, PLEASE?
    
    OK
    
    	db

'Fair Trade' covenants were declared an illegal restraint of trade
in the early 70's.  I vaguely remember that the case involved
stereo equipment (JBL?) and a mail-order company in Illinois.

Then again, it coulda been Timex and a wholesaler in Jersey.

Dave

Trying to talk down a local music store using mail order prices as 
leverage will generally get you nowhere.  If he really gets ticked off
he can complain to the manufacturer about mail order price undercutting.
He doesn't have to mention any mail order names - just that he can't afford
to carry that manufacturer's product.  The manufacturer then tightens down
on *all* mail order sales.  This, coupled with the fact that the local 
music store owner will probably be insulted by you, gets you nowhere
fast.  If they remember you the next time you go in, you're not gonna get
any sales help, prices, etc.  They'll ignore you.

If the mail order price is lower, buy it mail order!

Todd.

RE < Note 1168.51 by HPSTEK::RHODES >

>If the mail order price is lower, buy it mail order!

	I have to agree with this.  I've used mail-order prices as leverage and
had it back-fire in my face.  Some places are simply not ABLE to handle that
kind of bargaining.  I've come to recognize those stores and usually use them 
only in emergaencies or for piddling needs like guitar picks.  Some stores are
better at bargaining in certain areas than others.  MacDuff's in Shrewsbury is
one of the best guitar places around, both for sales and service.  BUT they are
terribly out of touch when it comes to keyboards and a lot of their electronics.
I've literally had to teach them about some of their synthesizers and let them
know what the market is doing on certain models.  (One time one of the salesmen
pulled me aside and asked me if they got a good deal on a clavinet that was 
traded in).

	Some stores need an education in economics.  We can educate them with 
our purchasing power.  One store in Worcester DEFIES my imagination as to how
they can continue to operate with their sleezy sales techniques and 'sale'
prices (which are above every other store's normal prices).  It seems to me that
a store like that can only survive on public ignorance.  I went there one time
and asked to see a piece of equipment in the keyboard room.  They pulled out 
their appointment book and proceeded to schedule a night for me to come back.
I looked over into the room, noted that there was no-one there, and asked to
see the equipment now.  Sorry, we have to have it scheduled in advance.  Having
driven 20 minutes to get there I was more than a little peaved.  But there was 
no way they were going to budge, so I walked out and have never given them a
serious consideration since then.

	Dan

    If the sole purpose of this society is to get the lowest possible
    price and screw the local dealers who've provided me with a lot of
    support, in many forms, then I'm out.  The guys at EUW have more
    than made up to me any difference in price I might have gotten by
    buying MO.  Maybe I'm an "ethical" fool with enough spare cash to
    not have to worry abiout $10 here or $25 there, but the fact is
    that using local dealers for info and then buying MO will eventually
    mean there are *no* local dealers to talk to.  Businesses aren't run
    unless they make a profit.
    
    See you.  There's more to life than the lowest price.
    
    len.
    

    Before we start losing valuable members like len, why don't we
    establish a charter defining our purpose. We can be alot more than
    a mass buying group.
    
    Personally, I'd like to be able to offer the combined expertise
    of this group *to* the vendors who support us.
    
    I volunteer to start the charter process. Can I get some help?
    
    Edd

    re:.53
    
    I agree 100%!!!
    
    I would like to comment on service for $$$. If a local store offers
    a service, maybe just letting you look at a play with different
    instruments, then they definitely deserve more money for their
    products.
       
    Remember though, that not all local music stores are cooperative,
    and I would rather go for the low $$$ in that case.
    
    pcv

Thanks, Edd -

>    Before we start losing valuable members like len, why don't we
>    establish a charter defining our purpose. We can be alot more than
>    a mass buying group.
    
>    Personally, I'd like to be able to offer the combined expertise
>    of this group *to* the vendors who support us.
    
>    I volunteer to start the charter process. Can I get some help?

Edd has volunteered to work on the charter and be one of our "company
policy" guys so that we can establish a real group. The potential benefits
of organizing go far beyond lowest price. The USA went thru quite a bit
of turmoil developing the Constitution and achieving independence. Let's
not give up before we get started.

Here are some activities and benefits that this group may derive...

1. Centralized price, product, dealer information
2. group activities such as special in-store demos, equipment face-offs,
   helping new equipment owners get started by sharing patches, disk data, etc.
3. organized group buying power at local stores, with preferred customer status
   and recognition by salespersons and owners. This should mean additional
   discount, accessories, etc.
4. additional information exchange between the group and dealers
5. notification by dealers of special discounts, closeout sales, etc.

I am already receiving most of these benefits since I have spent so much
money in Wurly's and Daddy's. It took a long time and a lot of purchases
before I got to know the people and they knew me. Now I call them several
times a week, and visit the stores often. They know that I won't be buying
something every time I come in, but they still are willing to be friendly
and demo new products because they know that when something really good
comes along, that I will buy it from them. The average unknown customer doesn't
get much help in these stores, especially younger people. Most of the sales
people seem to be rock musicians who expect other musicians, especially
young ones, to be "poor deadbeats" who just want to make loud noises with the
the equipment, but never buy anything. If we let them know that we have a
serious group of employed (reads day job) and knowledgeable musicians from a
major computer manufacturing company, their attitude and treatment will be
much more favorable, and they are much more likely to deal "straight" because
they know that we are not naive "off-the-street" suckers who will pay full
list price. Retail stores cannot hope to compete with mail order. There is
too much overhead. If you want to buy mail order, then you make the tradeoff
of not having the showroom, tech support, tradeins, etc. It would be cutting
our own throat to buy only mail order, just to save $50. I suggest we play
the stores against each other, and the MOs against each other, but keep them
separate.

dave  8^)

    Before anyone gets too mad about al these price issues, let me tell
    you why I'm interested in this consortium. I live in Colorado Springs,
    and that leaves me 4 or 5 shops that sell anything that relates
    to Commusic. When I walk in, I want to know what things are going
    for & I've usually read reviews about them. I prefer to deal with
    someone when I buy something expensive, but don't really care if
    it's something cheap. My options are real limited out here, but
    I have gained a substantial bit of knowledge just thru this notes
    file. I don't want the absolute lowest price in the world, and I
    don't expect that people will kill themselves to do it (If the
    world were like Monty Python, then maybe I would) just to get my
    business. My feeling is that if the DEC music society gets me a
    break at my favorite music shop, or helps me out at some mail order
    place, then it's worth the effort. If I have to be a jerk & twerk
    off all the local people (many of whom can become good friends,
    if you just give them a chance) at the music shops, then I'm using
    the music society wrong. As far as I'm concerened, I plan on 
    utilizing it as a tool to help me out, when I need it. 
    
    Musicians are some of the most opinionated people I've ever met,
    and maybe that's why I fit in so well. My opinion is that there
    are merits to it, and with a little common sense, and good judgement,
    it will benifit us all. I don't plan to quit. This has mucho potential
    for me.
    						Jens

    On the other hand if we're not going to try to get some increased mail
    order buying clout I'm out. There aren't any EUW's up here (I dealt
    pretty much exclusively with EUW in Newington for three years and
    rarely got any major bargans [one exception] my salesman from there is
    no longer with them, Jack moved to Worchester and the new guys don't
    know me from Adam despite the thousands I dropped there), there is a
    daddy's within an hour drive but after the way I've been treated by
    daddy's in the past they can shove it, Friendly river is near here but
    they can't get anything in any reasonaable amount of time, and never
    have anything relatively new in stock. 
    
    It's one thing for you folk who have numberous stores within the
    'local' area, it's something different for those of us who live
    out of the way a bit.
    
    You want serivce? Pay for it, I don't get service anyway so why
    should I bother?
    
    dbII

Lest there be any more emotional displays ... 

    One of the big bennies of a buying society (correct me if I'm wrong) is
    the advantage of big volume = lower price.  I doubt that anyone
    would dispute that.  But it's not the only reason for a society.

    Consider the advantage of such an organization to both its members
    (you'uns) AND the manufacturers (them).  You might get the opportunity
    to do things like field tests (remember Len's func spec addendum?),
    which is great for you.  They also benefit because they get feedback
    from a well respected and technically astute group of individuals. This
    is just one example of what this "society" could turn into.

    Good price is a big consideration - but it should come soon (if not
    overnight) once the volume of purchases is correlated with the society
    members, and should not require a lot of yelling and screaming. Neither
    should the other extra niceties (sellouts, sales, "non-disclosures")
    that come to society members. 

    Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

-b

Ok, let's all calm down a bit and recap so far...

1. We have several types of consumers in the group ...

   a. the mail order consortium
   b. the music store buffs
   c. those who go both ways 8^)

Each member of this group is equally important. We should feel free to voice
our views, but remember that it is tempting to use the anonymity of these
note files to get carried away. I don't see why anyone should drop out just
because there are differences of opinion. Let's get our charter and letter
of introduction prepared, and then take it from there.

2. There are a number of remote members, who don't have access to local stores
   and prefer mail order. Sometimes the price differential warrants serious
   consideration for ordering by mail, whether you live near stores or not.
   Other times, stores actually have lower prices. I doubt if too many
   mail order houses can beat Wurly's $895 MC500 closeout.

   Are there some volunteers who would like to become our "mail connection"
   and establish relations with the mail order houses. It really doesn't matter
   where in the US the mail order houses are, but things like tax, shipping
   and handling, delivery time, etc. might be a factor in deciding where to buy.
   Don't most of these dealers wait for your check to clear before shipping?
   Would it be to our benefit to reduce the number of people who contact
   these places directly so that they get to know several people well, or
   would it be better for each member to contact them directly? In any case,
   we should make sure that no matter where a member buys something, that
   dealer is made aware that another DECMS member just bought something.

3. I was at the Worcester Wurly store tonight. Couldn't wait to spend my tax
   return money, so I used plastic. I knew I should have invested in plastics
   when I saw "The Graduate". Eddie offered to close the store at 7pm
   (2 hrs early) and open the doors only for our members on a friday night and
   devote their entire time to our group, providing that we can get about 20
   people there at the same time.
   If you are interested, please send mail to SUBSYS::ORIN and if we get
   enough, I will set it up. This could be our first group outing. We could
   carpool. I work in Marlboro at NKS1, 100 Nickerson Rd. I can take 3
   passengers, and return them to NKS1. You can follow me or I will provide
   directions for those who have never been there. If there is special
   equipment that you would like to see, I will tell Eddie. Please remember
   that they are mainly Roland for keys, so they do not have Ensoniq or
   Yamaha, etc. We can visit some different stores to see the other brands.
   They have drums, guitars, pro-audio, Tascam decks and mixers, etc. Eddie
   let me take home some RAMSA speakers to try out, no deposit.
   This would be a real "show of strength" to Wurly. Eddie is going to
   talk to the owners about it.

hang in there, we'll get thru this yet...

dave

    Well, my goodness, I do seem to have stirred things up.
    
    Sorry, I had a killer sore throat last Thursday, it must have extended
    all the way to my fingers.  Now I'm almost all better again, and
    I promise to be less pugnacious.
    
    I confess to having bought stuff mailorder that Wurlitzer didn't
    carry and that it wasn't worth their trouble to special order for
    me.  Since they don't carry Y-word stuff, I guess I'll have to get
    my TX-802 somewhere else.  I'm seriously considering scoring another
    Symetrix 501 compressor/limiter from American Musical Supply in
    NJ, as they're unloading them for $259., which is pretty good. 
    And if I really want another CE-300, I'll probably have to get it
    from LaSalle, if they're not all gone already.  Etc.
    
    But, I will continue to buy most of my stuff from the boys at EUW,
    little things (picks, strings, heads, sticks) and big things (D-550).
    It would be nice if the society could help out, and I sympathize
    that Dave Bottom's got a different situation than I do (cheeze,
    Dave, you're among the last bunch of people I'd ever want to rub
    the wrong way).
    
    I'm happy to add my "clout" (use my name at the Framingham EUW and
    see what happens) (heh, heh, heh...) to the society if it means
    guys like Dave can get (mailorder from EUW) the same deals I do
    (locally from EUW).
    
    len.
    

    
    	re my .46 and .48  and Dave's .47 and .49.  
    
    	I wish to  "de_escalate"  I think that's a word, anyway it should
    be, and I'm sure you'll all know what I mean.  I further promise
    not to talk price or mention mail order houses on any DECMS outings to
    retailers, such as the one that Dave Orin is trying to set up at
    Wurlie's.

    	Reg
    

Hello fellow DEMCS members and prospective members -

E.U. Wurlitzer in Worcester is happy to announce a special open house for
the Digital Employees Computer Music Society!!!!!!

Date: Friday, March 4, 1988
Time: 8pm to 10pm (or later if necessary)
Location: E.U. Wurlitzer
          582 Park Ave. (rte 9)
          Worcester, Ma. 01603
Phone: (617) 754-5271
Contact: Eddie Fritz or Dave Orin

This is the first event of its kind in the history of the store, and is a
special honor for our group. It should be a gala event with loads of
equipment crazed musicians and salespeople. They are making special
preparations and reserving the store for us starting at 8pm. Please feel
free to arrive at anytime before 8pm, but try to make it by 8pm at the
latest if you possibly can. It is VERY IMPORTANT that those of us who
commit to showing up BE THERE. I will be happy to assist with
travel arrangements. I'll probably go there as soon as possible after
work and be there to greet you. Please feel free to bring friends who
are potential customers and significant others. This will be an information
exchange and hopefully they will get some sales for their trouble. If
you don't feel like buying anything that night, please don't feel any
pressure. If they try to sell you something, please realize that that is
their job. They have some really good prices, and have received 20 HR16
drum machines at their warehouse! They also have real drums and plenty
of nice Fender, Guild, Ibanez, Gibson, etc. guitars and bass, pro-audio,
TASCAM recording and mixing gear, Roland products, etc.

Here are some directions for getting to the store...

Take RT. 290 West to Worcester. Take Exit 13 Kelley Square. At the end
of the off ramp, turn right. Follow the signs marked RTE. 122 NORTH.
Kelley Square is very tricky. You go thru the square then BEAR LEFT
between two gas stations. One of them is a Merit station.
 You will go under some overpasses and come
to a light. Keep going on Rt. 122 for several lights until you get
to RT. 9 which is also called Park Ave. At the light, there is a
Gibbs Self-Serve gas station on your left, a Colonial Pancakes house
across the street, and big green signs with  9 - 12 -> 122a ->. Take
a LEFT turn onto Park Ave. The store is about a mile down near the
intersection of Rt. 9 and Rt. 12, on Coes St. Turn right onto Coes St.
and park.

If you need further information, please ask. Please let me know by
Monday if you can definitely make it, barring a major catastrophy.
Even if you are not sure, you are still welcome to come, but I need
a head count to confirm with Eddie. The Wurlygig is on, *IF* we get
at least 20 confirmations. Please RSVP to SUBSYS::ORIN soon.

take care,

dave orin

    well, I used to live in Pensacola Florida, where you had the
    gouge-o-rama loca mail-orders.  Now that <I liva and die in LA,
    I have the benefit of West LAA Music, which guarantees to beat anyones
    price. period.
    
    more info on request.  
    Ash in smogland.

    Is DECMS still alive and/or well?  How does one join or better yet, get
    a local chapter started?
    
    Mike

    
    Unfortunately, it more or less died with Dave Orin.  
    
    						Brian