Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    I would suspect the answer to all of your questions is no.
    
    I have often dreamed of having my keys hooked up via MIDI to my
    GPX.  I suspect the first thing one would do is build the inter-
    face board.
    
    I don't know if you can drive the console port or a DZ at  that
    speed or not,  but its a good bet that you will have to write a
    device for the sucker.
    
    And once that is complete,  I guess the sequencing software would
    be cake.  Bring it over to my house when your finished,  and I'll
    give it a test drive.
    
    Zach

    
    Or have someone design a DEQMI? 
    
    Aren't there RS232-to-MIDI boxes somewhere? Haven't I read about
    one? Is it in this notesfile? (didn't see a keyword)
    
    

    
    Seems to me I saw a software system being demoed at DECworld last
    year by an outside software house.  If anyone knows of a contact
    within DEC to find out who exhibited what, you might get a pointer.
    
    The software was running on a VAXstation II, so there wasn't any
    specific GPX exploitation (e.g. color).
    
    Just a thought...
    
    	Jim

    
    My moonlighting efforts have produced a Midi to DLVJ1 interface.
    (J1's are cheap and on the used market) 
    
    Currently we have rev 1.2 running interfaced to a (slowish)
    11/23+ (micro 11) for system exclusive bulk dump/retrieve
    of voicing and (QX5) sequencer info. Have a "midi-scope"
    program to monitor whats comming in, and fill a buffer with
    info you want to send (for short messages). Software is in C,
    interfacing to macro-11 for some routines (sure you'd change
    that for Uvax). Had to drop to all macro to handle sys ex
    messages from the QX (up to 128K at 31Kbaud). A circular
    buffering scheme allows "direct to disk" saving of those biggies.
    
    Still wondering if there's a market for the box...

    I wouldnt mind making a few bucks...ya know?
    
    ron
    

    
    
    Re: .-1
    
    Can't say if there's any market for that, but I'm curious about
    what you did.
    
    I've built a box to go MIDI to DLV11J too. It consists of the relevant
    connectors, and power supply and a circuit board which uses standard
    RS232 transmitters/receivers and the corresponding MIDI standard
    transmitters/receivers.

    This box does no interpretation of the MIDI data, retiming or anything
    like that. Serial in, serial out, that's all.
        
    The XTAL on the DLV has been changed (if I remember to 2 meg) and
    the appropriate strap set for 31.25 (again, if I remember correctly,
    the one that used to be "600 baud").
    
    Did we build the same thing?
    
    Robert
    

    Care to fill in more details about the 'box', like estimated costs
    and performance?
    
    Steve

    re .5
    
    well, no. The first scheme I did required changes to the
    DL. The xtal, like you said. AND some etch cuts cause the
    -12v. generator was then connected to a clock of not
    correct frequency. (may be not-a-problem,tho..) 
    
    I thought that folks wouldnt want to mess with their
    DLV and not have them repairable....THATS the motivation
    of putting a clock on my board and using external clock
    input to DLV. Now no real changes are required.
    
    We have 1 (or 2) channel(s) of IN OUT and THRU.
    Powered by the DLV. No supply or line cords, etc.
    X2 midi rate is selectable (this was looking like it
       (would catch on a while back, for dumps, etc...)
    Sized to fit on the back of a standard uvax BA123
        mounting "hole", so to speak, and cable to the
    DLV.
    
    no big deal.
    ron
    

    
    Re: original topic(s) about MIDIing a GPX...
    
    I really know very little about interfacing VAXen to things, but
    from the schematic of the little board that came with my MPU401
    for my PC, it doesn't look like it would be too hard to come up
    with a similar interface for the VAX.  That way you get all of the
    timing assists, buffering, etc. that you get with the 401, and you
    don't have to worry about keeping up with MIDI data through a serial
    port....  of course you get the 401's bugs and extra cost too, but...
    
    The MIF-GPX.... like the sound of that...
    
    /Mitch.
    

    
    
    
    Re: .8 & MPU401
    
    Sorry, can't help you. Don't know what the interface for the IBM
    PC is for that box.
    
    Re: .7 & - 12v supply
    
    Didn't seem to be a problem, but then I proceed from ignorance
    (something I'm not short of).
    
    I was going to do an external clock for a DLV11E - it has the
    capability to be driven by an external clock with no board
    modifications. I used 11Js because they tended to be easier to get
    hold of (i.e. for free).
    
    Re: .6 - cost
    
    Hmmm. Have to think on this one, let's see:
    
    Suitable box                               $10
    Transformer and PSU parts                  $ 6
    PC board (general purpose)                 $ 3
    RS232 drivers/receivers                    $ 4
    MIDI opto couplers                         $12  ($3 each)
    MIDI drivers                               $ 1  (single 8 line chip)
    MIDI connectors                            $ 4
    RS232 connectors                           $ 8
    2 mhz crystal                              $ 2  (surplus)
    
    Total (where is that calculator...)        $40 
          (all rounded to next higher $)
    
    Add on cost of wire, AC cord plus your time to build it and modify
    the DLV11J. Worst problem is cutting the holes for the connectors
    and hand wiring the PC board ...
    
    (Oh, I cheated (not in the price above) and used 1/4 jacks - 2 circuit
    - for the RS232 instead of 25 pin connectors, since it's easier
    to drill one 3/8 inch hole than file out the slot required for a
    connector. If you do that, then you need to modify the DLV11J output
    cables ...)

    Note that incorporating "thru" box capabilities, or adding multiple
    MIDI outs per DLV output is almost free: cost = cost of 5 pin DIN
    socket plus one additional 8 line 3 state driver chip per 8 additional
    outputs required. 
    
    What costs for additional outs is the hole cutting time for the DIN
    sockets and the wiring time. 
    
    Oh, I also have LEDs to display active MIDI lines - very useful
    when debugging a configuration (or software ...). Again the LEDs
    are virtually free since they are driven off the internal TTL levels
    (usual current limiting resistor, etc.). At least they only need
    one small round hole per LED !
    
    Robert
    

    
    
    Ooops, dropped a bit on the old calculator, the $40 total is really
    $50 ...
    
    Robert
    
    

    
    The reason I mentioned the MPU401 is that its interface is amazingly
    simple:  You provide a bidirectional parallel port (you don't even
    have to latch it if memory serves) and an interrupt line to the
    host processor.  You also have to give it a "select" and "address"
    line to turn the interface on/off and select between the data and
    command registers.
    
    On a PC, it takes three or four LS TTL parts.  I don't know about
    Q-buses, but it shouldn't be too hard there either....
    
    Then again, it costs a bit more than $50, but hopefully you get
    something more for the extra bucks! 
    
    /Mitch.
    
    

    
    
    
    Hmmm. Simple parallel port you say, with an interrupt line plus
    two control lines.
    
    If that's all it really is and it is not a DMA device to/from the
    PC's memory, then:
    
    Sounds like a job for a DRV11 parallel interface. Outputs are TTL
    levels. 16 bits wide. 2 interrupts available. 2 control lines
    available. Programmed I/O only - no DMA. (Also a relatively inexpensive
    interface ... )
    
    You'd need to make up a cable to associate control lines with their
    function to the MPU401. 
    
    Of course, then you need a device driver for whatever OS you are
    running (VMS or ULTRIX). Certainly not that hard to write if you
    are inclined that way ...
    
    If you're interested, send me mail and maybe we can work out how you
    can get the MPU interface schematic/specs to me. I'm curious to see if
    this would work. 
    
    Anyone else tried this?
    
    Robert
    

    as far as I know there is no real buffering of more than
    one midi byte on the 401 (comming in), so you still have
    to keep up with the data. 
    
    whats it? 320usecs per byte worst case. Ok. 
    
    whats the interrupt latency for a uvax? from physical interrupt
    to getting thru the (physical interrupt) context switching then
    thru (any) uvms context switching to the driver getting 
    the byte outa there? Anyone wanna guess?
    
    But I guess you can own the machine for incomming full bore
    (like system excl dumps)....and its 'half duplex' sort of....
    ....and you could use inline code, not a driver (er, right?)
    
    the 401 has a timer whos value can be associated with the incomming
    byte, I think. Thas nice for sequencing...otherwise you have to
    time stamp the message yourself....
    
    just some thoughts.
    
    ron
    

    
    RE: .-1    
    
    You're right to worry about interrupt latency for MIDI data handling.
    Most of the software I've written doesn't use interrupts that much.
    The model is: wait for interrupt for initial byte, poll for the
    rest of the message.
    
    That way if you miss the interrupt, you miss an entire message,
    not just part of one.
    
    In my case owning the machine is not a problem. Some things mess
    up (like the clock ...), but that's not too bad.
    
    I can't remember, does the base note refer to a GPX running uVMS or
    ULTRIX-32? Anyone ever contrasted their relative interrupt handling
    capabilities? I wouldn't like either for doing realtime work like this
    - the VAX instruction set doesn't help at all for interrupt latency. 
    
    However, bear in mind there are a lot of Z80s out there fielding
    MIDI generated interrupts. Of course, they don't have the dubious
    benefit of also having to run VMS or ULTRIX in their spare time...
    
    Robert
    

    
    Okay, here are more MPU401 details (I dug up my manual).
    
    The connector on the back of the box is a DB25.  There are pins
    designated as follows:
    
    SEL*	Master select line
    A2, A1, A0	Register address lines
    RES*	Reset
    RD*		I/O READ
    WR*		I/O WRITE
    D7 - D0	Data lines (bidirectional)
    DSR*	Interrupt request line (output)
    +5V and GND Guess.
    
    The box itself has a 6801 processor, 8K of EPROM, and 2K of RAM.
    There *IS* buffering on the board (I've done a little programming
    using this monster, but nothing extensive (yet))
    
    Though there are 3 address lines, only A0 is really used,
    since the other two are when you want to have up to 4 MPU401's
    at once (gack!)
    
    The manual is very cryptic in places, and downright wrong in others
    (all depends on what version of the manual, from what I've heard)
    but it *does* contain the information needed to pull off a GPX/MPU
    job.  
    
    MPU401's have two "modes" - the default (power up) mode isn't 
    exactly straight MIDI - you send special commands to the MPU
    Some of the things it does are maintain play maps, sends MIDI clock,
    manages tape sync (there are tape sync and metronome jacks on 
    the box), MIDI filtering (you don't want the pitch bender?),
    and a mess of other stuff.  You say "Start play, tempo = 100" and
    it interrupts you for MIDI notes and timestamps. It puts the notes
    together with the clock and sends them all out in sync (doing much
    of the hard parts for you, I guess).  According to the manual,
    it'll do 192 clocks per beat, but since I've seen programs advertised
    to do better than this on the 401, I guess there are more tricks
    you can play.
    
    Finally, there's a "dumb UART" mode that just echos MIDI data in
    and out (with some buffering).  Useful for sys-ex dumps, though
    you don't really need this mode to do it.
    
    So, it's definitely no big deal to hook one up.  I think you can
    be much less concerned about timing (though you certainly can't
    ignore it completely) as you would be with a simple UART.
    
    The trouble comes, however, in road-ruggedizing a MV2000 or GPX...
    though you may be the first guy on the block to tour with a VAX!
    
    /Mitch.
    

    
    
    Hmmm. The bidirectional data lines means there is no way to directly
    connect this beast to a DRV. The DRV-11 has two sets of data lines,
    one for input and one for output (each 16 bits wide, but the lower
    byte would suffice).
    
    However, it isn't at all hard to design of a small "black box" which
    transforms the DRV pair of lines into a single set of bidirectional
    data lines. The control lines out of the DRV would be used to place
    data on/take data from the bidirectional "bus" and generate the
    write/read/select/A0 lines to the 401.
    
    Given a friendly hardware engineer close to wherever you are, this
    thing shouldn't be that hard to knock together.
    
    Alternatively, the LSI foundation module could be used. This is
    harder to find in a scrap pile, but contains all the LSI Q-bus
    foundation logic and enough space on the quad board to add the simple
    logic required of the 401.
    
    Finally, if you really wanted an armoured MVII or such, there are
    companies who "militarize" them ... of course, the price is a military
    one too. However, most of the Macs I've seen on the road do just
    fine as built by Apple ...
    
    Robert
    

    Being a sometimes-student type, and having a very understanding
    manager, I used to cart my AI VAXstation around in the trunk of my
    Subaru. 
    
    That VAXstation had more than 1000 miles on it when I traded it in for
    an 8-plane color GPX  :-) 
                              

    Now that we have a VAXstation that utilizes a SCSI bus and does
    PC emulation, are we any closer to VAX MIDI?
    
    Mike

    With the Tandy PC deals that are now available through DEPP, are
    the Tandys' recommended for MIDI applications?  What is available
    as far as MIDI software packages go?
    
    Or are Atari STs still the MIDI system of choice?  I was told that
    the MIDI chip in the STs is made by Yamaha and is the same one Yamaha
    uses in their synths.  Is this true?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

Dunno' exactly what the advantage would be.  Financing, maybe? From what I 
understand, financing through DCU may not be worth the aggravation and
extra interest, though it *might* be easier to get a loan approved.  I got 
this info off of VTX EPP:
    
DJ-PC410-AA        DS210 MONOCHROME FLO   MS-DOS,LA75P-CA,B/W  1,695.00
DJ-PC410-BA        DS210 COLOR FLOPPY P   MS-DOS LA75P-CA COLO 1,925.00
DJ-PC415-AA        DS210 MONOCHROME 40M   MS-DOS LA75P-CA B/W  2,395.00
DJ-PC415-BA        DS210 COLOR 40MB PKG   MS-DOS LA75P-CA MONI 2,595.00
DJ-PC420-AA        DS316 MONOCHROME FLO   MS-DOS LA75P-CA B/W  2,125.00
DJ-PC420-BA        DS316 COLOR FLOPPY P   MS-DOS LA75P-CA MONI 2,375.00
DJ-PC425-AA        DS316 MONOCHROME 40M   MS-DOS LA75P-CA B/W  2,795.00
DJ-PC425-BA        DS316 COLOR 40MB PKG   MS-DOS LA75P-CA  MON 2,995.00
DJ-PC430-AA        DS320 MONOCHROME FLO   MS-DOS LA75P-CA B/W  2,850.00
DJ-PC430-BA        DS320 COLOR FLOPPY P   MS-DOS LA75P-CA MONI 3,095.00
DJ-PC435-AA        DS320 MONOCHROME 80M   MS-DOS LA75P-CA B/W  3,775.00
DJ-PC435-BA        DS320 COLOR 80MB PKG   MS-DOS LA75P-CA MONI 3,995.00

Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't better deals be had from outside,
or am I missing something?  As I recall, the reason we are dealing in
Tandy equipment is so that we can provide a complete spectrum of support
to our customers.  But, if a PC is all you want and you don't mind going
to Tandy (Radio Shack) for support, I believe a better deal can be had
by going to your local Radio Shack.  In addition to saving on the hardware,
I believe you will also be saving on service costs.  The difference
is that you won't have the same people support your PC as support your 
MicroVAX.  This is probably a disadvantage to big, outside customers,
but probably not to you as a small-time consumer.
    
I'm not bad-mouthing EPP.  I've checked with them on occasion to see about 
buying a computer.  I may yet go that route.  But, I've not been able to 
justify the extra cost.  The times that I've brought Digital stuff in that
belongs to my cost center, I've been surprised at how much it cost to
have it fixed.  I've been thankful more than once that I did not buy the 
equipment myself - especially after being told that parts could no longer
be found for some of the stuff that broke.
    
    Steve

PCclones can be had for $500-$800.  If that is the route you want to go.
Atari ST and Mac are still probably MIDI computers of choice.  The chip
in the ST that handles things like the comm ports etc is a Yamaha chip, but
that is raelly irelavant (sp).

Chad

    
    I haven't done the necessary research yet, but the $3,995 deal for
    the DECstation 320, VGA monitor, 2MB memory, 80MB hard disk, and
    LA75P printer certainly seems like a good deal to me!  I don't recall
    seeing that particular combination of peripherals anywhere else
    for less...
    
    From what I've heard, the Tandy EPP deals are just barely above
    what we pay Tandy for the machines, so I doubt they'd get any cheaper
    than this...
    
    /Mitch.
    

    A co-worker told me that EPP is cheaper than the Tandy computer
    centers, even with a 20% discount at Tandy.  That is what prompted
    me to ask the MIDI question in the first place.  I'd also utilize
    some general type applications besides MIDI but it sounds like Atari
    ST or Apple is still the way to go.
    
    Mike

    Any dandy Tandy prices handy?
    
    Steve

    Re: back a few...
    
    Depending on what kind of MIDI applications (and others) you are
    interested in.......you might want to include the Amiga in the list of
    MIDI'able systems.
    
    -Jeff

I bothered to call the Apple phone # provided in the EPP newsletter
that came out during the last couple weeks (the one offering PVAX and
DECstations).

They gave me 2 dealers in my area to contact and sent me their package
in the mail.  Of the 2, I think ComputerLand is the only national
franchise (the other is Computer Pro).  The arrangement is to order
from the locals at the prices supplied in this package.  Minimum order
amount is $300 and all sales are final.  The package also included an
application for an Apple Credit Card.

Here are some of the prices:

System                                                MLP   Discount Price
------                                                ---   --------------
Macintosh II RGB system w/Apple Extended Keyboard    $8444  $5910
          includes Mac. II CPU, AppleColor High-Res.
          RGB monitor, Mac. II 8 bit Video Card,
          internal 80SC hard disk, Apple Extended
          keyboard.

Macintosh System Software 6.0                         $49   $34.30

Apple IIe 128K Color Pro. System w/3.5" Drive        $1726  $1208
          includes Apple IIe 128K CPU, AppleColor
          Composite Monitor IIe, UniDisk 3.5 Drive,
          UniDisk 3.5 Accy Kit, Catalyst 3.0

Apple IIGS 512K RGB Pro. System w/3.5" Drive         $2127  $1489
          includes Apple IIGS, AppleColor
          RGB Monitor IIe, Apple 3.5 Drive,
          Apple IIGS Memory Expansion Card

ImageWriter LQ Printer                               $1399   $979
ImageWriter II Printer                                $595   $417

MIDI Interface                                         $99    $69.30  

    Do you get prices on the mac plus, or se?
    (non-mac 2, macs)
    How do these prices compare to mail order?
    

>    < Note 1143.27 by HJUXB::LEGA "Bug Busters Incorporated" >
>    Do you get prices on the mac plus, or se?
    
    The systems in -1 are the only ones the package listed.

>    How do these prices compare to mail order?
    
    I have no idea.  Sorry...
    
    Mike

    I found this note very interesting.  Maybe the appropriate people
    in here can get this guy interested in VAXstation MIDI.
    
                <<< FOGGYR::$DISK2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BROADCASTING.NOTE;1 >>>
                     -< Radio and Television Broadcasting >-
================================================================================
Note 26.0                      Your humble servant                       1 reply
SMEGIT::TINNEY                                       42 lines  28-JUN-1989 15:05
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Remaining humble in a company of 125K, or so, people is not a problem.
    When note 1.1 was passed to me by an ex- engineering type I was
    reminded that there are lots of DEC folks who don't know we are
    "in the business".
    
    I am the U.S. marketing manager (I know, so what am I doing in notes)
    with responsibility for marketing Digital solutions to the electronic
    media industry i.e. broadcasting, cable TV and entertainment companies.
    I'm part of the Media Industry Marketing group and have a counterpart,
    Steve Sommer, who looks after printing and publishing industries
    i.e. newspapers, magazines, books & etc.
    
    I started in radio in the late 50's when commercials came in on
    electrical transcriptions (ET's), 16 inch, usually acitate, records
    that were often cut from the inside out.
    
    I've been through the development of the NAB standard cart machine,
    FM multiplex, and automation. The first stereo show I did used AM
    for the left channel and FM (mono) for the right channel. Jeeze,
    I sound like an antique!
    
    Any way, I just returned from the National Association of Broadcasters
    convention where we had a booth for the second consecutive year.
    In many ways technology has moved by orders of magnatude. In other
    ways the business hasn't changed much. You can still tell the most
    successful PD. He pulls the biggest house trailer!
    
    You might be surprized to learn that DEC is a significant vendor
    to companies like ABC, NBC, CBS, FOX, Turner (CNN, WTBS, etc.) National
    Public Radio, Voice Of America, and on and on.
    
    In addition Videocypher, the defacto standard in scrambling satellite
    video signals is a VAX/VMS-developed product sold by General
    Insturments Corp. who also own Jerrold, the converter manufacturer.
    
    Well,(as Ronnie used to say) this being my first-ever note I'd better
    close it.
    
    Mel Tinney
    
    Are there really still people out there who think they want to own
    a radio station?

    Being one of the folks on the VAX workstations architecture team, I
    am interested in some feed back on having a MIDI interface on a
    future WS. (This is not a commitment, just a feeler for info). Is
    it viable? Is there a market? If yes, then who is going to write the
    software? Who is going to maintain the software?
    
    If you could give me some feedback, I would appreciate the data.
    
    oh, by the way, does anybody have a copy of the MIDI spec I can use?
    (Like a member of the MIDI association?)
    
    Jeff
    
    Oh-- Send the info via VAXmail. It's easier to get the data that way,
         than read this conference.
    
    

	Sounds like entering a pseudo-Fairlight realm.  A VAXstation with a
sequencer program, perhaps even a tone generator...?

Megs upon megs of memory, polyphony upon polyphony...?

That would be fun.

--mikie--

    YES Virginia there is a market. The interface would be quite simple.
    It is the sequencing and composition software to implement it that will
    be the development cost. Multiple midi port support would be even nicer. 
    To sequence a full symphony....
    
    Jim
    

    Insofar as commodore 64s can laser print midi files and control
    the midi system quite well, there is NO market for a simple VAX
    MIDI MS/WS.  The price of a complete computer side with printer
    should be <$3K and would have to do pretty much everything; patch
    development; patch interconversion; publication quality printing,
    computer-aided learning, sampling with an ADC and sample formatting
    for all the current formats; song file interconversion of formats,
    sending song files over modem, automatic composition, interactive
    and live performance aids; interactive live performance.  The
    user interface should be totally iconic.

    The development would cost Digital too much and return too little.
    Software developemnet would be continuous and never ending.  Turnaround
    on new software would have to be far far shorter than we have now,
    because the MIDI software market is run by small firms that turn
    on a dime. 
    
    It's out of our hands.
    Tom

From:	DDIF::EIRIKUR "Hallgr�msson, ACA and CDA Prod. Mgr.  26-Jul-1989 1219" 26-JUL-1989 12:35:53.17
To:	star::mcleman
CC:	EIRIKUR
Subj:	Your Commusic note

    Jeff,

    MIDI can always be provided by a serial line converter (as is done
    on the Mac).  It would be nice, but I think that direct audio output
    from the workstation is a much higher priority.  This would allow
    better user interface (more than one type of beep sound--new mail
    should sound different than "Cluster going down in 2 minutes!"), and
    better integration for voice messaging.

    We are currently adding the data types for voice to the CDA (DDIF)
    specs.  This would become much more useful for voice annotation of
    documents, etc., if the workstation could play back the annotations.

    My concept of the priority around sound/music:

    1) Audio output from the workstation  (any decent DAC, doesn't have to
    be CD quality, but has to be percieved as sounding good and not
    irritating.  There probably wouldn't be a tone control, so speaker
    quality is an issue.)  Probably requires a front-mounted headphone jack
    for open office environments.

    2) Audio input (at least an input jack)  Current projects work around
    this by using the user's telephone and a LAN-to-PBX interface, which
    is why this is lower priority than number 1.  I don't think that it's
    acceptable to have to pick up your phone to hear a voice message,
    though.

    3) MIDI jack on the workstation.  If you provided this, and we had
    vendors who would use it, I would certainly be able to get the MIDI
    files data format (SMF) supported as a component of CDA (known kind of
    DDIF content).   I have asked for this already, and the DDIF architects
    have (sensibly) said they would rather wait until we had applications
    to test it and evaluate what else would be needed.  Today it can be
    prototyped using a private DDIF content tag.

      
    	Eirikur

    I can submit a formal requirement in support of the CDA-voice work if
    you are taking such things.

I think that having a midi-adapter board with multiple independent outs would
make sense, with associated drivers and run-time library support.  I wouldn't
recommend that DEC do applications for it however.  Also include smpte hardware
and software.

I think professional studios (not necessarily recording studios) would have an 
interest in using a ws for control, scoring, smpte control, etc as well as
direct sample editing etc. as some use the Mac II now.

However, the majority of users of MIDI are poor musicians or home hobbyists
who couldn't get near a ws if they wanted to.

COMMUSICers will say yah, neat, great, but we eat, drink, and breathe the 
subject.  We are not the best people to ask if it is a good idea.  Once a 
decision has been reached however, COMMUSIC is a great place to ask for ideas 
on what kind of support, ect. You might get in touch with the major third 
party sw vendors in the music and recording (as well as film) industries to 
see if such a beast would be supported.

Chad

PS:  I volunteer to field test!  :-)

    Unless DEC wants to compete with Synclavier and other high end digital
    'music workstation' vendors, forget it.  The base price of VAX/RISC
    technology is too high for the general MIDI users.
    
    Nice idea though.. but just because we CAN do something doesn't
    mean we SHOULD.
    
    karl

I think that the scoring/profssional transcription/editing type crowd would
be interested.  If we do the hardware and drivers, let other 3rd parties do
applications.

"Normal" midi users can't afford it.

Chad

    From a software development point of view, I'm inclined to agree
    with Tom (Janzen) ... to a point.

    From a hardware perspective, it would be very nice to have the
    capability of a plug-in MIDI card(s) available, each addressable via
    normal mechanisms ($QIO, name MID0:, MID1:, etc).  From a software
    standpoint, it would be nice to have a *good* library available to help
    application developers ... kind of like the Mac's library, but a lot
    less bugs and all. 

    I don't think it would be profitable to have a MIDI software
    development group necessarily (unless we can get the price of the
    low-end workstations down into the $2k range), but providing the tools
    and hardware would certainly make the thing quite interesting to the
    big 3rd party developers (digidesign, Steinberg, Opcode, etc). 

    You might also consider a good quality D/A board (with minimum stereo
    outputs, of course) for computer-based sampling and sound audition
    of synthesized waveforms.  Of course, proper emulation libraries
    would need to be written (FM, additive, etc).

    Given DEC's development tools, a good MIDI hardware interface, a
    good D/A and the proper sound libraries, it is conceivable that
    such a beast could be the system of choice in many studios.

    In short, provide the tools, and let the OEMs take it from there.

-b

    Our current conversion products are probably adequate if the software
    could support DMA real time 44kHz input and output.
    Tom

    MIDI would be a relatively cheap option to add (IMHO).  I think
    the market to shoot for includes the pro studios and OEMs.  Consider that
    in the future, workstations will replace (what are now called) PCs
    and 9600 baud to the home will be normal.  Having a MIDI port as
    a cheap option may appeal to anyone owning such a workstation. 
    It would look good as another option on the list when comparing
    our workstations with 'their' workstations which will likely come
    with MIDI support.  So, it may even have an advantage to the buyer
    who looks at features and doesn't really understand what they are.
    Consider also that adding 'CD-quality' sound capabilities is somewhat
    satisfied with the addition of a MIDI port and added cheap synth
    hardware, rather than building a cu$tom mondo sampler into the 
    workstation or making it an option.
    
    Steve

    The message below was forwarded to STAR::MCLEMAN.  The author of
    the memo below is the U.S. Area Marketing Manager for
    media/broadcasting applications.  I had asked him some questions
    regarding DEC's position on MIDI, Image Processing & Animation.
    It pretty well sums it up!
    
    Mike
    ------------------------------------------------------------------
From:	PNO::MRGATE::"GRANIT::TIGEMS::A1::TINNEY.MEL" 25-JUL-1989 14:41:39.83
To:	HEISER
CC:	
Subj:	Broadcasting

From:	NAME: MEL TINNEY @MKO               
	FUNC: MEDIA IND. MKTG.                
	TEL: (603) 884-4574                   <TINNEY.MEL AT A1 at TIGEMS at MKO>
To:	MIKE HEISER @PNO


    Hello Mike:
    
    	I'm not impolite, I do travel a good bit though which gets me 
    behind in my mail. You ask good questions and I'll try to answer them.
    
    	First, in a company the size of Digital (nearly $14 billion this 
    year and 120,000 or so employees) I've found that the term "quite a bit 
    of potential revenue" means something very different than it means at 
    smaller companies. As an example we're working on a potential 
    opportunity of $15,000,000 with The Walt Disney Companies this year. 
    That's probably more than the total profit of all U.S. companies 
    involved in MIDI, much less what they might spend on DEC gear.
    
    	Second, It's an issue of resources. There are so many exciting 
    opportunities out there. Opportunities that Digital is ideally 
    positioned to address. Unfortunately, someone has to decide what not to 
    go after and those decisions are usually made on the basis of strategic 
    importance and potential revenue.
    
    	As it turns out we are a major vendor to Hanna-Barbera, Spielberg, 
    Lucas, Disney and even Mr. Rogers! 
    
    	I appreciate the info on the notes conference and any other 
    information you have. Though I have priorities in my job I also have 
    personal interests and, as a rock drummer in the early sixties, music 
    is one of them.
    
    	If you find yourself back East stop in for lunch. I'm sure we'd 
    have lots to talk about.
    
    Best regards,
    
    Mel

    Sounds like an OK opportunity for some VAR'ing of VAX MIDI'ng for 
    some OEM ... :)
    
    Steve

    Well OK we could easily make some current loop serial interface.
     The Digital way would be to incluede on board time stamping  and
    multiple midi lines, like the IEQ 11 gpib interface has 2 gpib buses
    with different addresses.  Then provide some system calls.  The
    same level of support as IEQ11 under vax lab.  Also DMA.
    Also DMA ADC/DAC at standard audio (ca 44k samples/sec, how many
    bits, 16?)
    Then let the 3rd parties party.
    Tom

what tom said.  I don't think the resources to make a simple hardware interface,
a software driver and some system calls (rtl -- like dectalk calls or whatever)
would be that great.  a midi interface is simple.  then let the third parties 
provide applications.

Chad

    This is beginning to sound more and more like an old CSS call (
    Computer Special Systems, yes it's part of DEC I was in it).
    Does CSS Munich have an interest (they made the ieq 11).  Maybe
    just a Xtal mod on a current loop dlv11 would do it.
    or whatever qbus serial is current.
    Tom

    To connect MIDI interfaces to DEC gear all that we need to do is start
    using async comm chips that will take external sync, and make sure the
    sync-in pin is available at the interface.

I think you'll find that the DZQ-11 has a jumper to allow using your own
timing standard. Oh yeah and it's 4 lines at once...

dbii

    Come on guys... Since when has Digital ever produced and marketed
    anything geared for the average home/amateur user. We are after
    the professionals... and they have the bucks to spend.
    
    

From:	ALEX::CONN "Alex Conn 381-1678, ZKO1-2/C38  02-Aug-1989 1114"  2-AUG-1989 11:24:47.53
To:	STAR::MCLEMAN
CC:	CONN
Subj:	RE: a feeler for MIDI on VAX ws 

Jeff,

I believe we should have some kind of MIDI interface available on our
workstations.  That is, the hardware should be there for 3rd parties to
build whatever that need.  I agree that Digital should probably not plan
to do the software.  

We should not underestimate the importance of such an interface in the
university market.  Electronic music is becoming considerably more
important at universities, and having such an interface could make the
difference in whose workstation is used in such a lab.  What students see
is often what they later order when they work at some Fortune 500
company. 

In addition, many keyboards sold at discount stores now have MIDI
interfaces even at the relatively low end.  Who knows what a graduate
student might come up with if they could connect a Digital workstation to
such a device?

When the choice is between a DEC workstation and a MAC, MIDI could be a
real asset.  And, if they're stuffing them into $100 keyboards, the
interface couldn't be that expensive.

Alex

    Looks like the dream ended before it started.
    
                     <<< VWSENG::PAGE$:[NOTES$LIBRARY]VWS.NOTE;1 >>>
             -<  VWS - VMS Workstation Software (NOT DECwindows)  >-
================================================================================
Note 282.0           The day that no one thought would come              1 reply
WSINT::MCLEMAN "One More Month.."                    15 lines  31-JUL-1989 20:39
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is to inform you of my departure from the VAX Workstations
    Engineering environment. I am off to do bigger and better things
    within Digital. Being part of this conference and all of your daily 
    lives for the past 5.25 years has been, shall we say, interesting.
    
    I wish the current VWS and VWS Migration teams good luck in their
    upcomming work. Hey, all those applications can't be wrong.
    
    Anyway, we all may meet again in another conference someday in the
    future. Till then, I bid you peace.
    
    
    					Jeff McLeman
    					

    Well, it sort of ended. The engineering folks are still interested.
    I have alot of friends there still, so I can keep something rolling.
    
    Jeff
    

This is probably as good as any place to put this (from *April* [don't know
is that is relevant :-] 90 issue of KEYBOARD in the "NEW GEAR FROM NAMM"-type
article, last regular column of text p91)

note: *xxx* is boldface in article

"Finally, *Kauai Software* (distributed by *Uninet Custom Product Design*) 
displayed MIDI and parallel ports for the Sun, Decstation, Vaxstation, and Mac 
computers that reportedly speed up laser printing, and can support up to 512 
independent MIDI devices. One MIDI in, three MIDI outs, and one parallel port:
$1,300.  Eight MIDI ins, 24 MIDI outs, and one parallel port: $3,600.  Perhaps
even more interesting, Kauai was running MS-DOS (IBM-PC) and Mac software
programs simultaneously on a Decstation.  Rumor has it that the price of these
mega computers may come down far enough that even mere mortals such as ourselves
could afford them."


It implies in my mind that somehow the Decstation is runnig both PC 
(understandable through SoftPC(tm) or similar) and Mac! software at the same 
time and that this software can be MIDI software.  

Comments??

Chad

PC software under an emulator, maybe.  (MIDI software uses interrupts and other
awkward things).  Mac software--no way.  You'd have to emulate the ROMs as well
as the processor, and I have yet to hear of that being accomplished.

	Eirikur (who wrote a RSTS/E sequencer and a built a serial-line D/A to
control the first Roland synth [SH-1000], lo unto these many years ago)

    For $1300 I can buy a Mac and the Opcode box equivalent to their small
    box.
    
    Unfortunately, MIDI systems for Unix based systems are going to be more
    expensive. The Unix scheduler does not make life easy on real-time
    applications. Either heavily buffered hardware or major software
    changes will be needed to match what can be done in the uncontrolled
    (and unscheduled) PC and Mac systems. An application that cheats and
    takes over the machine/hardware on a
    fast MAC or a fast PC will almost always outrun a Unix version of the 
    of the same application on a fast workstation (except
    Masscomp/Concurrent). 
    
    As an example, there are now PC based analog to digital data acquisitions
    systems that can captures 500,000 16bit samples per second
    continuously to disk (until the disk is full).
    Unix based workstation are not even close. (except
    Masscomp/Concurrent).
     
    In addition, most of the Mac software is VERY dependent on the Apple
    ROMs in the Mac. That has been the biggest roadblock to cloning the
    Mac - the technical and legal challenges.
    
    

SOft pc allows MSDOS applications to run under VMS

I have heard of a MAC emulator as well but don;'t know any details...

dbii

    There might be an emulator for the Motorola 68000, but that is the easy
    part.
    
    Also the Mac OS includes specific support for dealing with Midi
    interfaces.  (The Midi Manager)  You don't have to hook into the
    hardware directly any more.  In fact Apple warns against doing that, as
    it won't work in future machines, and it doesn't allow for multiple
    programs running at the same time all speaking Midi at once.

SoftPC isn't for VMS -- its for Ultrix (don't know which hardware...).

VAXPC is for VMS.

Chad

	Chad, you sure?  I've seen the VMS version of SoftPC out on the
	net.  I think it superceded VAXpc.

	It's pretty neat.  The Macintosh version actually makes
	floppy-drive-seeking-track-0 noises when it boots.

    Well, I don't know.  I got my info a month or so ago out of DECdirect
    or the VAX and DECsystem book or somewhere like that.
    
    Chad
    

    VAXPC has been retired. SOFTPC is now available for VMS and ULTRIX
    (both VAX and RISC).
    
    Gil