Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    Yes, Richard, I phoned Argent's in town today. They say that,
    contrary to the impression that other dealers may give you, the
    sound of the new RD300 is identical to that of the conventional
    one. The 's' type pianos incorporate changes to the design of the
    action, so they have a slightly firmer, more German feel to them.
    
    (I.E. they're harder to play).
    
    Richard.

    I played one of these (an ``RD300s'').  The salesman claimed that the
    new action is ``oil-dampened''.  (use your imagination).
    
    What that means in terms of feel is that it has more of a breakaway
    characteristic to it (resistance starts heavy and then gets light
    for the lion's share of the travel).
    
    While this sounds intuitively like what a real piano action does, I
    think they need some work on the constants. Personally, I vastly prefer
    the old RD300 action (but I don't have decades invested in my piano
    technique, either). 
    
    Steph
    

    Yes -- the chap I spoke to mentioned oil. Imagine having to take
    your keys in for an oil-change. I expect it's tougher to play at
    a cold gig, too. 
    
    I can't imagine why they go to such lengths to emulate what Herr
    Steinway ended up stuck with. Surely he was aiming at the modern
    feel but was hampered by the restraints of contemporary design.
    Sure, if you're making a new piano for someone who's played nothing
    but Steinways or the like, emulate the action -- it might be easier
    than teaching an old maestro new tricks. But to go to such lengths
    to make a slower keyboard seems generally retrograde, especially
    when the 'new' action seems, to most players, so inherently expressive.
    
    I do still reckon that most setups need at least two keyboards --
    one piano-like action and one organ-synth-like action. But that's
    probably only a product of bias produced by my own limited keyboard 
    experience.
    
    Richard.
    

< Note 1119.3 by HEART::MACHIN >
>    I can't imagine why they go to such lengths to emulate what Herr
>    Steinway ended up stuck with. 
        
    Let's see. In The Beginning there were harpsichords (not velocity-
    sensitive), organs (ditto), and there were pianos. 
    
    Then there were monophonic synthesizers, and electric pianos. Then
    there were polyphonic synthesizers, with organ-like action. Then
    there were polyphonic synthesizers that sounded like pianos and
    played like organs. Now there's a polyphonic synthesizer that sounds
    like a piano and plays like a piano. 
    
    So what's your problem, guys? Don't BUY it ! If you need a cheesy
    synth keyboard with little springs in it so that you can think you
    play fast, then buy one ! I *support* Roland in trying to emulate
    the old, 'slower' (to whom?) keyboard, 'emulating' an action that's 
    been under constant development for over 200 years. 

    best anyhow, karl    

    I'm sort of attached to pianos, but since I've been playing on a
    mere 1/2-lead-weighted(really, I'm not being funny, we did it on
    	purpose) drop action for 21 years (the same Kohler&Campbell
    36") I'm not attached to grand actions.  I would sell it to
    get a KX88/MKS20 if I had the remaining money.
    
    Philosophically, I'd have to take the position that pianos are
    obsolete, that the piano action is not holy, that modern midi
    controllers will supersede it, with pitch-bend, aftertouch (up/down
    and sideways),
    variable velocity-sensitivity, breath control, guitar/sax/violin
    /flute controllers, whatever, they can be more expressive than
    the piano action, which, after all, offers only dynamics control
    (although pianos and other acoustic instruments' timbre/envelope/pitch
    (e.g. flute)
    changes with dynamic as well; for the oboe, timbre, or the amplitude
    of the second/third harmonics IS the dynamic, since the fundamental
    changes so little).

    Yeah.  Pianos are gonners.  Kiss 'em goodbye.  Acoustic grands
    are priced out of existance anyway.  Inflation on pianos has been
    far higher (I'm guessing) than the cost of living.
    Tom

    re .3, .4 - I'm inclined to agree with Richard - the "feel" of the
    piano keyboard was not designed (i.e., set as a goal to achieve),
    it is a side effect of the mechanism developed to allow dynamics
    (why it was called a pianoforte) and refined to allow rapid playing.
    Keyboards that feel like pianos are a sop to players who learned
    on the piano and have an enormous amount of effort invested in
    technique suited to that feel.  This is fine, there's no reason
    why they should be abandoned.  But, like the standard QWERTY keyboard
    (as opposed to, say, the far more efficient Dvorak layout), just
    because it's traditional doesn't necessarily mean it's optimal.
    
    I'm sure someone will at some point bring up the matter of drum
    pads not feeling like real drums, but the issue there is not so
    much one of technique (relatively firm pads are actually easier
    to play on than, say, a 16" tom head tuned way down low) as it is
    wear and tear on the arm, wrist and fingers;  this just requires
    a lighter touch to get used to.
    
    As long as players can get the feel they want, for whatever reason,
    who cares?  What's best for you may not be best for me.
    
    len.
    

RE: .-1:
    
    >I *support* Roland in..'emulating' an action that's been under
    > constant development for over 200 years.
    
    That's just it! Developed for 200 -odd years until 198*, when
    development stops and we start working backwards again! It's as
    though the ultimate piano action has already been discovered, and all that
    remains for us is to simulate it as well as cheesy springs, oil
    dampers and the like will allow. I suppose eventually Roland will
    simulate a real piano so well that it will look, weigh, feel, sound and
    smell indistinguishably like a Bosendorfer (sorry -- we still can't
    get the colour of Steinway keys quite right). Only it will cost
    a bit more.
    
    Richard.
        
    
    

    Well, despite my general positive attitude about the RD-300, I really
    wanted something with the MIDI controller function of the KX-88.
    
    But "feel" was my first consideration.  I figured, if it had MIDI
    I could hook it up to whatever I wanted.
    
    I just found that I didn't like the stiffer action of the KX-88.
    I felt that it wouldn't take much more than about 30-40 minutes
    of playing before my hands would start getting cramps, so I went
    with the RD mainly because of the light-yet-weighted feel.  It was
    also the closest in feel to the piano I cut my teeth on (an old
    Jansen upright which has the lightest action of any acoustic I've
    played).
    
    So, for my own preferences, this move by Roland is a step in the
    wrong direction.  Because of what I'm used to, I would not buy the
    new keyboards.   Looks like I'm gonna be hanging onto my RD-300
    for a long time, since I'm not aware of any other 88-key weighted
    action keyboard with the same light feel.
    
    	db
    
    p.s. Yes, I realize that there are some that would describe my
         tendency to get tightness in my hands as a weakness in my
    	 technique.  However, I'm somewhat pragmatic about that.
    	 I feel that strength needed solely to deal with stiff keyboards
    	 is functionally needless since I can get a keyboard with
    	 lighter action.
    
         I've had other keyboard players complain about my RD-300 cause
    	 the keys have a longer throw than most pianos.  This never
    	 bothered me, actually it never even occurred to me until someone
    	 pointed it out.  So, it's not like the old RD feel didn't have
    	 its drawbacks.
    	

    Oddly enough, I have both an acoustic Piano & a synth & I like the
    feel of both of them. However I never could get used to the 25 1/4"
    scale length on Fender Guitars But love the 24 3/4" scale length
    on Gibsons (I often play in darkened rooms & it's nice to have an
    instinctive feel for the instrument). I guess I agree wih those
    who claim that the two instruments have a lot in common, but at
    the same time, they are quite different. Personnally I like my up-right
    grand piano, because the harp will vibrate in sympathy with the
    music (you have to press the proper pedal to get the pads off of
    the strings) if you attach a speaker to the sound-board. I have
    done a few home recordings using this to accent the lead guitar
    parts (multi-tracking is nice). Lets see you do that on a synthesizer.
    As in the case of scale lengths on a guitar, I like what I like
    & it doesn't matter if it feels wrong to someone else. I'm happy
    that the manufacturers listen enough to people to try to make 
    variations. All of us seem to have a slightly different perspective
    on music - & that's what makes it interesting. I never liked the
    feel of stale marshmellows under the keys of my old Fender Rhoads,
    but it sure made my hands sore.
    						Jens

    
    
    		Moller??
    
    	not Moeller??!!!
    
    	{blink, blink}
    
    {overload}
    

    	Yes, he's my twin brother, seperated at birth, and carted over
    	the mountains by Gypsy's, who were herdin Aardvarks, in hopes
    	of teaching them to root for truffles. It didn't work out with
    	the Aardvarks, so they got into music.
    
    	As for me, I'm Danish (was born there), but was captured by
    	pirates who demanded that I play only acoustic instruments until
    	I could prove which came first, the chicken or the synthesizer.
        I deduced that the chicken came first, mainly because of all
    	the turkeys that I see playing synthesizers. Thus, I came to
        Colorado, Via the great Colorado Canal system (connecting Hudson
    	bay to the Pueblo reservior, by way of Toledo Ohio), in my trusty
    	Dingy.
    
    	Karl had to walk & clean up after the Aardvarks on the trip
    	out.
    
    	These were very trying times in our lives & we prefer not to
    	talk about it, espescially since Karl is now allergic to Truffles.
                                
    	Oh yes, we changed our last names to protect the innocent.
                         
    	    	Jens - Crazy in the mountains - Moller
                                                 
    

RE < Note 1119.11 by 29588::MOLLER >

	At least you both retained the family knack for humor...

	Dan

    Yes, it's true, our other brother Karl Malik, now a sought-after
    jingle composer, stayed behind in the East to watch the rest of 
    the flock.
    
    Actually, I believe our last names are pronounced the same, with
    a long 'O'. However, the initial 'K' in my first name is silent,
    unlike Jens, whose 'K' is pronounced.
    
    karl