Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    As another option, you might want to check out the Kawai rack mount
    mixer (which I happen to own).
    
    It is an 8x2, with TWO separate effects sends (mono-send, stereo
    return).
    
    It is a three-high rack mount unit.
    
    Controls are:
    
    	rotary pan, and effect 1 and effect 2, per channel
    	slide fader per channel.
    	Input clip LED per channel.
    	Input level selector per channel (3 positions, ``low'', ``medium'',
    		and ``high'').
    
    	1 pair of master output faders (sliders).
    	1 pair of LED peak meters for the stereo output.
    	1 stereo headphone jack, with rotary output control
    	+4 dB output levels (RCA jacks and XLR jacks).
    
    Steph

	Price?

	Moved from separate topic...

	Does anyone know about this unit?  This is what I've been able to
put together from scraps of info here and there - any or all could be erroneous;

		8 Channels, each consisting of:
			two band EQ,
			2 effects sends, (w/stereo ret.)
			input level switchable between 0dB and -20dB

		stereo outputs
		headphone out
		rack-mountable, 2 units high (yay!)
		

RE < Note 1113.3 by AKOV68::EATOND >


	BTW, I'm told by more than one dealer that this is a hot unit - can't 
keep 'em in stock (though they had one...).  It's supposedly extremely quiet.

	Best price - Sam Ash $312.

RE the Korg:  Best price: East Coast $199

	Dan

	Anyone know about or own the Roland BX-800?

	From what I see, its;

	8 X 2
	channels:  gain, hi/lo EQ, effect level, channel level
	headphone out w/ volume pot
	LED level meters for outputs

	Best Price:  Sam Ash $315

	But there are a lot of them in the used market...

	Dan

    I know about the two Yamahas and I own a Kawai MX-8R.
    
    The two Yamaha's are pretty similar except that KM-802 is NOT
    a rackmount and for some reason costs significantly less than
    the MV-802.  I have the impression that the audio specs on the MV-802
    are better than the KM-802.
    
    I wanted a rack-mountable unit.  Even though I don't do a lot of
    gigging or jamming, I *HATE* (with a passion) setting up and breaking
    down things.  There's also the question of what you put the mixer
    on if its not in the rack.
    
    The Kawai MX-8R (what I ended up with) is reviewed in 770.46.  I
    also compare with with the Yamaha KM in that note somewhere too
    I believe.
    
    I'm happy with it, but I find it (and to a slightly less extent,
    the KM-802) to be a bit noisier than I had expected.  The noise
    level is no big deal for playing out, but depending on how picky
    you are, it can be a noticeable nit in recording (if you actually
    have to use it for recording which I often can avoid by using the
    inputs on my 4-track.)
    
    It certainly gives a lot of bang for the buck. It even has a 4-way
    MIDI thru box, which as we've recently learned isn't necessary to
    avoid timing skews, but use the thru box anyway cause it makes it
    slightly easier to setup and break down my rig, PLUS it makes it
    a bit more foolproof as well:
    
    Now I'm going to bore you with the nitty details of why in a full
    blown explanation of my system (my apologies in advance).  It also
    is an unabashed plug for using racks:
    
    	I've taped together and labelled all the wires and chords that 
    	go to each instrument.  All the chords are stored INSIDE the
    	rack with the mixer.  I never have to plug or unplug anything
    	in the box.  
    
        My setup procedure thus is:
    
    	    1) Take ONE power cord and plug it into the wall.
    
    	       Advantages:
    
    		a) Only have to find ONE outlet and not search or beg
                   for more.
    
    		b) Can power the whole system up or down from button
    		   on 8-outlet octopus mounted inside rack
    
    		c) Doing it this way makes it almost impossible to
    	           have a ground loop
    
    	     2) Take snakes for each of ESQ-1, RD-300, and Casio RZ-1 and
    	        plug in the cords in each snake: power, MIDI, audio.
    		All the cords are stored *IN* the rack.  When I break
    		down I just roll the snakes up and stuff it all into
    		the empty spaces.
    
    	     3) Plug PA send into MX-8R (it has both XLR, RCA and phone
    		plug sends)
    
    	     4) Plug into monitor (typically, my JC-120).
    
    So basically what I do is just setup the equipment where I want
    it and then everything gets plugged into stuff coming out of the
    rack.
    
    	db

Lemme see if I got this right.  A "keyboard mixer" is just like any other
mixer except that it does not take mic-level inputs?

    re: .7
    
    Most keyboard mixers have selectable input gain, although only a
    few have XLR inputs.
    
    One thing I've never seen on a keyboard mixer, and never NOT seen
    on a non-keyboard mixer is EQ.
    
    I'm not aware of what other distinctions keyboard mixers have (or
    lack).
    
    	db

RE< Note 1113.6 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Dave" >

	Thanks, Dave, for the pointer.

	KMII, do you have a review of the KM802 anywhere?  Ron Ross, you got
one o' dem, too, right?  Any complaints?

	In case y'all hain't guessed it, I've out-grown my 6 channel board and
am on the lookout.  For all the same reasons Dave mentioned, I'd love a rack
setup that I can send a sum to the house P.A..

	Dan

    I got the MX-8R (I couldn't remember the stupid number...) for $260.
    
    I agree with db that it is a bit noisy.  I spent the better part
    of a day fidgeting with all my level controls at various points
    in the system, only to be finally resigned to the more-or-less obvious
    default combinations.
    
    Also, I find that the input amps break up before the clipping lights
    go on in certain situations.  That took me a while to track down
    also.
    
    Steph
    

    KM802... there's probably a short review somewhere.. someday I'll
    learn to use markers or keywords...
    
    Rackmount versus uh, standalone mixers.. I have a rack and love
    it, except I can't see trying to do a good mix, properly located
    at the apex of an equilateral triangle with my speakers, bent around
    trying to adjust knobs or sliders on a vertical rack surface.
    
    I've found the KM802 to be EXTREMELY clean for recording.. it should
    be, there's hardly anything IN there. The three effects sends on
    6 of the 8 channels is very handy. Channels 1 & 2 allow hi-z mic
    input, have +-15 db pots for 10K and 100 cycle EQ, and only one
    effect send. The effects sends are mono out/stereo return, post-
    fader.. that is as you bring the channel fader up/down it also varies
    the signal going to the effect(s) selected. 
    
    I got mine for just over $200 and am quite happt with it. The sliders
    are big enough for my hands, and the LED 'meter' is quite accurate.
    It also has a separate stereo phone output which is not dependent
    on the main output faders.. so it's actually usable for, say, a
    separate monitor setup when playing live.
    
    karl

    	If you think the Yam KM802 is a little more than you need, they
    make a KM602 which is what I ended up with.  There are two fewer
    channels to work with (six into two), and only one channel supporting
    MIC <-> LINE input.  You cannot stack them vertically (like the
    Kawai) either.  Finally, the KM602 does not have EQ.
    
    	On the plus side, 4 of 6 channels give you a CHORUS (reverb?)
    which works pretty slick and each channel can be PANed to either
    stereo output.  And like the KM802 you get a couple AUX send and
    returns for external processing.  The KM602 costs about $180.  
    
    	I came to this note via the AUDIO note file, and to my ear 
    these devices seem noisy, but that may be par for the course.  
    I have not tried recording, yet.  Nice unit though, and extremely 
    easy to use!
    
    Happy New Year!
    Bill Allen

>    Also, I find that the input amps break up before the clipping lights
>    go on in certain situations.  That took me a while to track down
>    also.
    
    Yep, same with my MX-8R.  I now set the levels entirely by ear and
    experimentation.
    
    Basically, the MX-8R is a bargain and as such it involves compromise.
    In my case, the closest acceptable alternative in price was the
    Yamaha rack mount mixer which costs almost twice as much.
    
    	db

RE: .13

    I probably missed this earlier, so forgive me for asking, but ...

    What is the going price on the Kawai mixer?  And for the KM802,
    for that matter?

>   Price?
    
    Of the MX-8R?
    
    I paid $250 at Musician's Workshop in Salem, NH.
    
    	db

>   Price?
    
    Of the MX-8R?
    
    Sam Ash wants $210.
    
    	de

    Knowing Sam Ash, the price will probably be $270 tomorrow.
    
    Steph
    
        (I got mine for $225)

    re: .5:  [Roland BX-800]
    
    I just bought one, and now I'm wondering if it's defective...
    
    Complaints?  The mono effects send won't drive my Midifex box (while
    my Yamaha MT2X portastudio does just fine), and it's quite noisy.
    
    I haven't found a similar unit on the market (in terms of bang/buck).
    Has anyone else been more successful?

    Another alternative for keyboard mixing: the Tascam M-06.
    
    Picked one up for $299 at E.U. in Boston.  Some features ...
    
    6-channel, stereo
    2-band EQ per channel
    Effects loop with Stereo returns
    Line/Mic input, with completely variable input contol (attenuation?)
    6 sliders, plus 1 (I'd expected 2) for Master level
    1/4" and RCA inputs for all channels
    Built-in Phono Preamp on Ch 5/6, for hooking turntable in
    Very small, lightweight (don't have size/wt specs with me)
    VU meters (needle, not LED) with back-lights
    
    I like this board; it seems quiet, esp. like its extremely small
    size and light weight!  I put 2 keyboards, drum machine, and mic
    thru it.
    
    -Jim

    
    One master slider on the Tascam because it is sold as a recording
    board.....fades are easier with one slider than two....
    
    
    

    I've been doing a bit of checking into this subject.  While the Kawai
    is inexpensive, it's noisy.  The Yword units are quiet, but are only 8
    channel (makes adding FX a hassle). 

    Two units that are very nice are the BiAmp Rackmax and the Roland
    M160/M240.  The Rackmax is a 16 channel board with 3 band eq,
    FX/AUX/Monitor sends, stereo FX return, and channel soloing.  Takes 10
    rack spaces, and can be purchased with a built-in digital reverb unit
    (made by Alesis - basically a �verb!).  List w/o verb $1999, w/verb
    $2299.  Best price w/o verb is $1595 from Profound.

    The Roland M160 (M240) is a 16 (or 24) channel board with no EQ. Takes
    4 rack spaces, has 4 aux sends (all stereo return!).  List is $1095 for
    M160, $1495 for M240.  Best price is $895 on M160 from Profound.

    According to several different people, the Roland boards are much
    quieter than the smaller 6-8 chan units.  Of course, the Rackmax blows
    them all away. 

    Now, how much money do I have?

8-)

    thanks for the homework, Brad. I bleeve the Roland also comes in
    a non-rack (console) config... my vote goes to nonrack mixers for
    convenience when mixing to stereo.. trying to do delicate fader
    adjustments on a vertical rack surface while listening to your 
    stereo mix thru speakers sounds difficult.
    
< Note 1113.21 by DYO780::SCHAFER "if (bucks .GT. 0) call MUSIC_STORE" >
>The Yword units are quiet, but are only 8 channel (makes adding FX a hassle). 

    say huh? the KM802 has 3 mono sends/stereo returns.. On this subject,
    I don't see any mention of input/tape busses on these mixers. I
    can't help but wonder if I might do as well just getting another
    8-channel KM802 ! (for ~$250 rather than ~$2K).. comments ?

    BTW, Brad.. your PERSONAL_NAME .. how did you know ? Just got a
    stock check, sold my motorcycle and anticipate a nice tax refund..
    
    karl

RE: .22

    Gotta agree on the remixing aspect - of course, you could always lay
    your rack on its backside (watch those cut cables, now). 

RE: 8 chan units and FX

    What I meant was chaining 8 chan units together in order to use one FX
    unit across both boards.  I was not intimating that the KM/MV was a
    lousy board.  Even Ohioans aren't that stupid. 

RE: personal name

    Funny how tax refund time does that to people.  This is the 4th
    year in a row now for me ...

$8-)

    
    If you're looking at the Rackmax, take a look at the Hill Multimix.
    It's a 12 channel rack mixer that has 4 assignable channels that
    can be used as inputs or outputs. With two effects busses, it can
    be configured as a 16x2x1, a 12x4x2x1, or a 16x4x2x1. 3 band fixed
    eq, 4 RIAA phono inputs, phantom power, 90mm Alps faders. It's about 
    $1600 list and last time I saw one at Eastcoast it was $1400.
    
    CdH
    
    

	O.K., some background...

	I ordered and rec'd the Kawai MX-8R mixer from Sam Ash, N.Y. early this
month.  Rec'd it last week.  Due to various other commitments, didn't get to 
hook it up til Wednesday night.

	Plugged it directly into my amp system.  Seems fine.  But that's not how
I intend to use it.  I was keen on the XLR connectors to run through the snake 
into the main board.  This is where the frustrations begin.  No sound.  Check
synths, board faders, connections, still nothing but a faint signal.  Boost the
gain on the main board.  Get a lotta hum, and a little more signal.  Boost all
volume controls on synths to full.  Boost Kawai faders to max.  A LOT more hum,
still faint signal.  Try running 1/4" output to board.  EEEK!!! Plenty of 
signal!  Look at manual (a whopping two pages worth!).  Nothing.

	Ponder:  Are the XLR vs. 1/4" outputs an either/or situation?  Nope, 
cause I tried it without anything plugged into the phone jacks.  Notice:  When
1/4" outputs plugged in, output LED's light up.  When XLR outputs plugged in,
No LED's.  Can't even get 'em to light up (though the channel clipping 
indicators operate properly).  Bummed.

	I'm going to call Sam Ash today and ask for a replacement.  Has anyone
else had a similar problem with their Kawai (Dave?  Steph?)?  

	Side question:  Is there any difference between an XLR cord for a mike
and one you'd use for this application?

	Dan

    Hmm.
    
    Only time I ever used the XLR outputs was at Summerjam 87.  We ran
    a line direct to the PA board and had no problems.  Keyboards sounded
    better than everything else on the tape we made.  Don't know whether
    the 1/4" and XLR outputs are independent because I used the XLR
    on one channel and the 1/4" on the other channel as a monitor
    send.  (This allows you to adjust your monitor level without effecting
    the level sent to the PA).
    
    I do know that the headphone output level is independent of the
    L and R volume levels, but I haven't made any experiments with the
    XLR sends.  Only theory I could venture is that you have a severe
    impedance mismatch.
    
    	db

Something is wrong here.  What is at the sending end of these XLR-terminated
cables?  It had better be something that expects low impedance (like a low
impedance microphone) otherwise you will get levels that are way off.  If
you have switchable gear, make sure it is in the low-Z configuration.

You mention synths, etc.  Do these synths have low-Z outputs???
If not, you can't use them this way.

RE < Note 1113.27 by DFLAT::DICKSON "Network Design tools" >

>Something is wrong here.  What is at the sending end of these XLR-terminated
>cables?  

	I plugged the XLR outputs into an XLR mike cable into my Peavey board.
I don't have the specs handy on what the Peavey expects.  If Brian Rost is 
around, he may know it off the top 'o his head (he's got a similar board).

>It had better be something that expects low impedance (like a low
>impedance microphone) otherwise you will get levels that are way off.  If
>you have switchable gear, make sure it is in the low-Z configuration.

	The Peavey board accepts both hi (into 1/4" jack) and low impedance 
(into XLR's) connections.  It has input attenuation to handle either line level
or mike level input.

>You mention synths, etc.  Do these synths have low-Z outputs???
>If not, you can't use them this way.

	Again, I don't have specs handy on any of my synths, but I can tell you
what I was running: TX81Z, RD-200, MKS-7 and an old mono synth (MS-10).  The RD
and the MKS will allow switchable output levels (L/M/H).  The Kawai board also
has switchable input levels (L/M/H), and fiddling with these seems to make no 
difference.

	One thing you may not be recognizing is that I said the output LEDs
would light up jus' fine when plugging in 1/4" cable.  When plugging in an
XLR cable, they don't do a thing.

	Dan

BTW, I called Sam Ash and they'll replace it with no problems (relief).

    
    I agree with .27, don't send it back so fast.
    
    Let's take a step back and look at the big pix...
    
    On the rack mixer...1/4 outs...are they balanced or unbalanced? 
    unbal = 2 conductor patch cord
    bal = 3 conductor patch cord
    
    On the big board...1/4 ins...same question as above. Also, what
    kind of XLR input are you using? If it's switchable, it should be
    set to low impedance, or mic.
    
    Sounds like the XLR's could be wired differently, this is common because
    there's no friggin' standard in the industry. There might be a picture
    on the back of each board describing how it should be wired.
        
    Gimme a call if you have more questions.
    
    CdH
    

    At the risk of unintentionally insulting you, have you tried several
    different cables? Both XLR outputs?  Several of the peaveys XLR
    inputs?
    
    Sometimes even these simple things simply slip my mind.  It once took
    me about 15 minutes to figure out that the cord from my ESQ-1 to
    the mixer was bad.   I tried all the non-obvious solutions before
    the obvious one (the MIDI volume gotcha, etc.)
    
    	db

    Dan,
    
    Perhaps you can suggest some experiments for other Kawai MX-8R owners
    to make for you that would determine whether yours is working
    differently.
    
    Unfortunately, I doubt *I* can help you here because I believe
    that currently have nothing to plug the other end of the XLR 
    cable into.  All my mics are low impedance, I have no board with
    XLR inputs, etc.
    
    	db

RE < Note 1113.30 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Dave" >

	Ypu, tried two different XLR cables, known to work for mikes.  Tried two
different Peavey channels. Tried both left and right outs on the MX8R.

	What nobody seems to be grasping at here, though, is the problem of the
mixer not showing any output on the LED's when an xlr is plugged in.  Any 
guesses on that bugger?

	I won't be able to send it back 'til prob'ly next Tuesday.  So, any
advise before then will be testable.

	Dan

RE < Note 1113.29 by TWIN4::DEHAHN >
    
>    On the rack mixer...1/4 outs...are they balanced or unbalanced? 
>    unbal = 2 conductor patch cord
>    bal = 3 conductor patch cord

	Definately unbalanced.
    
>    On the big board...1/4 ins...same question as above. Also, what
>    kind of XLR input are you using? If it's switchable, it should be
>    set to low impedance, or mic.

	1/4' are definately unbal., and there is no switch for lo/hi Z.
Worthy of note, though is a comment in the manual that one should not have
bothe inputs plugged in on any one channel simultaneously.  Could that mean
that a switching arrangment may exist on the 1/4" jack that sets the channel
to lo/hi?
    
>    Sounds like the XLR's could be wired differently, this is common because
>    there's no friggin' standard in the industry. There might be a picture
>    on the back of each board describing how it should be wired.

	The manual is bird-cage material.  There is NO useful info in it.  
Neither does the back panel contain any diagram of the XLR leads.
        
	Dan    

	Chris,

	Are there adapters that correct differently XLR's or do you just have to
solder some home-brews?  Is there a quick way to test for this possibility?

	Dan

    
    Yes, somebody makes just that, a XLR shell with a dip switch in
    it, but it's about $30.00. I'd rather use $0.003 worth of solder.
    Almost everyone gets the ground pin right, it's the signal and return
    pins that are always mixed up. And some units ground the shell to
    signal ground, others are floating. 
    
    The 1/4" works, the XLR's don't. Do you have *anything* else;
    amplifier, eq, effects unit etc. that has XLR inputs that you could
    test if the Kawai outs are functioning?
    
    I've never heard of output meters lighting when you plug something
    into it. Usually the bottom LED is lit as a power-on indicator,
    or none are lit.
    
    CdH
    

re < Note 1113.35 by TWIN4::DEHAHN >

	$30, huh?  Yeah, soldering sounds much more reliable 8^).

	Brian Rost called and gave a number of good suggestions, one of which
was to use an XLR->1/4" (lo-to-hi-Z) adapter from the Kawai XLR to the Peavey
hi-Z input.  I'll try it tonight.

	Chris, (or anyone, actually) what is the most likely pin arrangement
to be found on an XLR?  Which is ground, specifically?

	I think you've misunderstood about the meters.  It's not that they light
up when something gets plugged in, ... I was saying that they just don't light 
up indicating a signal when I was using the XLR to convey the signal to the
Peavey.  Does that make any more sense?
    
	Dan    

    Sounds like whenever you plug something into the XLR, the output
    gets shorted!  Maybe a solder whisker in the XLR (on the inside).
    That would explain both the horrid sound (rectification effect of
    a bad connection), and the low meter level (shorting the output
    MIGHT drop the meter level, if the meter reads the output in parallel
    with the XLR jack.
    	
    Try giving the jack a good hard wriggle/twist/flex.  [sounds kinky!]
    				:-)
    

    What small circles we move in here.
    
    I use the XLR connectors all the time.  I also use the 1/4" jacks
    at the same time.
    
    The output of both jacks are +4dBm unbalanced.  I suspect that they
    are wired together internally.  (The manual indicates that there
    is no difference between the XLR and 1/4" outputs other than connector
    shape...)
    
    
    I suspect your cables.  I built my own, because there is no standard,
    and I only needed pigtails.
    
    I think that the meters read directly off the output wires, and
    if you short these, you are not going to get any of the lights to
    flash.
    
    I can get you the appopriate information for which pins are which
    on the Kawai end, but you have to figure out how your mixer works
    as well.
    
    Call me this weekend, and we can probably work it out.
    
    Steph

RE < Note 1113.38 by BOLT::BAILEY "Steph Bailey" >

	Well, folks, here's the good word (if you want to call it that...)

	The Kawai is not defective.  It is, indeed, a mix-up of XLR pin wiring
between the MX8R and the Peavey.  To all those who scoff at the notion that 
there's no standard in the industry on XLR pin wiring; take note.

	Via suggestion from Brian Rost over the phone, here's how I tested:

	1)  Connect 1/4" output from MX to PV.  Verify output (using either
Peavey's meter or by hearing output from speaker).

	Result:  Verified.

	2)  Connect XLR to MX, but not to PV - verfiy output of 1/4" as before.

	Result:  Verified.  (This, as some may remember, is contrary to the 
impression I was giving earlier.  I apologize, as I was mixing up my facts due
to frenzied testing.  If my first impression were true, there'd be plenty of 
good reason to suspect the cord.)

	3)  Connect loose XLR to PV.  - verfiy output of 1/4" as before.

	Result:  Gonzo.  Nada.  El kaput.

	So, if I understand the terminology correctly, I have fallen victim to
a ground loop.  Is that right?  The hot is being shorted directly to ground.

	On my show Saturday night, I used the 1/4" out into an XLR adapter.  No
problem.

	Some remaining questions and comments...

	Do you really gain by using lo impedance un-balanced XLR connectors?  As
Steph points out, the manual says there is NO difference betwixt what the 1/4" 
puts out and the XLR.  What say ye (forsooth!)?

	How would one go about determining the pin arrangement from the MX or 
from the PV.  I know that the XLR connection from my SM58 mike into the PV
works just fine.  Anyone know the pins on that?  That would get me halfway 
there...

	Of worthy note...  I realized that I *could* do one of the tests that
Chris gave - i.e., connect the MX to another XLR devise input.  I have a Tapco
stereo EQ that accepts both bal. and un-bal. connections (my PV board only puts
out 1/4", so I had never used the Tapco bal. ins).  So, on Friday night I 
connected them and found that the connection worked O.K.  Arrgg!  Now I know 
that its the PV that is the odd-ball, not the MX.

	Thanks to all for the quick and extremely useful help and advise for
this situation.  You all saved me a great deal of frustration (not to mention
the down time while I waited for the new MX to get to me).  This conference is
worthy of a nobel prize.

	Dan

    
    Re: .39
    
    If the XLR out is really just a parallel connection with the 1/4"
    out, you can verify the wiring by simply checking with an ohmmeter.
    
    Plug both cords into the Kawai.  Check for continuity from the *tip* of the
    phone plug.  This will be the "hot" (+) connection of the XLR.
    Then check the continuity with the *sleeve* of the phone plug. 
    This is (audio) ground.  Probably will also be chassis ground.
    
    Now, check the XLR cord while plugged into the Peavey.  Find out
    which pin is the ground.
    
    A common way of wiring unbalanced signals to XLRs is to connect
    the minus hot (-) to ground.  This may be what is causing the problem.
    In this case, you would find *two* pins of the Kawai XLR to be at
    ground.
    
    If the grounds don't appear on the same pins of the XLR on both
    ends, there you go.                          
    
    BTW, since it sounds like the XLRs are just wired in parallel with
    the phone jacks instead of having a real balanced output, it's Kawai
    who is sleazing on the standardization.  The Peavey board works
    fine with any balanced sources I've hooked it to.
                      
    
    

    
    Re: .39 again
    
    Forgot to add that if running a 1/4" out into a transformer into
    an XLR cord works, just stick with that because the transformer balances
    the line, giving you more immunity to noise.  
    
    The Kawai "pseudo" XLR just gives you a simple physical connection
    with no electrical benefit....unless loss of sound is a benefit!!!

RE < Note 1113.40 by AQUA::ROST "A peach, a pear or a coconut, please" >

>    A common way of wiring unbalanced signals to XLRs is to connect
>    the minus hot (-) to ground.  This may be what is causing the problem.
>    In this case, you would find *two* pins of the Kawai XLR to be at
>    ground.

	If this were the case, would it be proper to solder a cord in which
the #2 pin is not connected?  Or would that mess up the PV?

	Regarding the need for XLR connections...  I only want it in order to
avoid having to bring 1/4" -> XLR transformers for connections into the snake.  
If that's something I have to live with, well, o.k..  it's just another part to
forget or lose on the night of a concert...

	Dan

There IS a standard for XLR connections, for BALANCED circuits.  I don't
happen to remember just what it is, but there is one.  I saw it in one of
the magazines a few months ago.

Using XLR connectors for UNBALANCED circuits sounds questionable to me,
and I would not be surprised if different people did it differently.
But certainly connecting an UNBALANCED source to a BALANCED input has
a less than 100% probability of working.  And there is no reduced noise
benefit to using XLRs in this case, as the noise immunity comes from being
BALANCED, not from the shape of the plug.

	O.K, it's starting to sink in...

	If I were to custom make a cord to go from my unbalanced XLR to the
XLR's on my snake, I'd have to either use a transformer at the end of the snake
to go into the lo-Z input (1/4"), or somehow dig into the insides of the PV
board to set up the XLR to be unbalanced only (not a pleasant option).  It looks
like, sensibly, I'm gonna need a transformer SOMEWHERE if I want to use my
snake (which has only XLR connections).

	Have I got it right?

	Dan

    I made up 6 XLR cables last weekend, and pin 1 is signal ground
    (I also solder the sheild to the case connection on the plug), Pins
    2 and 3 are the balenced signal). So when you have a balenced low
    impedance XLR connector, you have to deal with all three wires.
    
    If you have a High Impedance XLR connection, Pin 1 is also signal
    ground, and pin to is the signal.
    
    These are how SHURE sends out thier microphones, and how every Preamp
    that I've ever used has them set up. If you have an impedance matching
    transformer that converts Low impedance to high (Radio Shack sells
    them for around $12.00), it also has a diagram printed right on
    it. Since this matches my Shure SM58 (Lo-Z), S588 (Hi-Z) and 10L-C
    (lo-Z) & they all work, I assume that this is the standard to go
    with. If your plugs are wired differently, I suggest that you get
    a male/female XLR plug & make an adapter cable up, rather than
    re-wiring anything for your microphones or mixer. Whats really standard,
    I don't know, but I assume Shure's pin out can probably be trusted
    (My keyboard Players AKG is wired the same way also).
    
    							Jens

Re 1113.44 by AKOV68::EATOND

You have it right - you need a transformer somewhere.  I suggest you should
put the transformer at the sending end, so that the cable itself is operating
in balanced mode, thus giving you the reduced noise benefit.  It will WORK
with the transformer at the listening (mixer) end, but it will be more likely
to pick up noise that way.  Might as well get the advantage you are paying
for.

    
    re: wiring a balanced line
    
       The witty saying I was taught was "George Washington Bridge"
    which corresponds the three colors of your average three-conductor
    cable to the pins on an XLR. Green-White-Black = 1-2-3.
    
       I have seen occasional lapses of this standard, mostly they consist
    of reversing the two signal lines (which is a null). 
    
       /pjh
    

    you DONT need a transformer somewhere, actually.

    you can use active circuitry: a differential input
    op amp configuration for balanced inputs...

    for the driver...an output buffer to one line....
    also connected to an inverter going out to the other side....

    rr
        
    

    Re:  Unbalanced XLR connectors.
    
    They are common enough that my Tascam power amp mentions them in
    their ``how-to-wire'' documentation (which incidentally, is superb.
    I have never seen 10 pages of useful documentation for a power amp
    before.)  I don't think Kawai is really ``sleazing'' on the standard.
    
    It also mentions that in the unbalanced case, either of the wires
    which are normally used for a balanced signal can be used as the
    ``hot'' lead.  From their docs, it looks like the ground is the
    only sure bet.
    
    Steph
    

    
    I think using XLR's for unbalanced lines WITHOUT screening that
    fact on the back panel is sleezy. It gets you into the exact situation
    that Dan's in. As for XLR wiring standards, there is none. A few
    manufacturers may have the same convention, after all, there's only
    so many ways to hook up three wires. But there is no standard, like
    there is a standard for 1/4" TRS balanced connectors, that *every*
    manufacturer adopts.
    
    As for Dan's problem, I vote for a pair of transformers inside the
    Kawai. Active electronics are an alternative but you have to hassle
    with finding the proper power on the board, worry about placement
    of the circuit board to minimize hum, etc. The transformer is an
    easier implementation.
    
    Through a 100' snake, I'd run a balanced line if at all possible.
    It's worth the effort if it saves your neck that one time when the
    place you're gigging has dirty power, bad grounds, neon lamps, and
    various other nasties.
    
    There is an interesting app note from Rane Corp. that discusses
    ground loops and the many ways to wire interconnects between devices.
    I'll try and remember to bring it in and I'll copy it for anyone
    who sends me mail to TWIN4::DEHAHN.
    
    CdH
    

Actually, picking one signal wire over the other for the unbalanced hookup
will make a difference, because it will reverse the phase of the signal.
Usually, though, proper phasing is something you only worry about with
multiple-microphone setups.

	Just wanted to make a comment here on Korg's new rack-mount mixer...

	Saw it in a magazine and then at LaSalle's - 12 channels, three effect
sends (although there's some weirdity about 2 and 3 being on the same effect
level pot).  Looks like a nice unit.  LaSalle's was using one in the keyboard
demo room.  I don't know anything more about it.

	Dan

    Being that my Kawai MX-8R just broke....
    
    How much was it going for?
    
    	db

    re .53
    
    I saw it at E. U. Wurlitzers in Worcestor for around $550.
    
    I was tempted to get it, except I really didn't need that many inputs
    and I couldn't imagine trying to control 36 effects send nobs without
    some midi automation.
    
    Guido

    
    Re: MIDI automation
    
      I was reading about the JLCooper 8-channel MIDI control for about
    1K-buck. I haven't seen it in person yet. Looks nifty.
    
      I'm getting my Roland this week, it's been backordered. 4 effects
    sends (aux included), stereo, 16 channels. I can actually fill 14
    channels today. Beats my BX-600 to death.
    
    /pjh

    How much be this Roland 16 ch mixer?
    
    Edd (outgrown_his_12)

    
    Last quote I got was EU Wurlitzer in your neighborhood asking about
    800 bucks for it. I'm paying 850 up in Vermont but it costs me 30
    bucks to go to Mass and back, and I want the guys up here to service
    it anyway, and 20 bucks isn't enough to bother with it elsewhere.
    
    It's the rackmount one with the tiny knobs. I forgot the model number
    offhand, but it's a neat box - LED meters, stereo, mic/line atten.,
    no EQ but lots of effects sends. 
    
    /pjh

    re more & more inputs..
    
    funny, my needs have gone down, from 6 (3 stereo pairs) - Fb01,
    MKS-20 and Emax, to 4 (2 stereo pairs), Kurzweil 1000px and Emax..
    
    unless of course I had a need to use the 8 individual outs on the
    Emax.. naaah.
    
    karl

     Minimum number of inputs required always equals maximum number
     available...
    
    
    
                ... plus 2.
    
    Edd

    M160 is $759 at Jack's Music in NJ.  Ask for Chris, tell him you're
    on the usenet, phone no is 201-842-0731.

    Use my name of you like.  I just ordered one from him about 5 minutes
    ago.

-b

    
    so, how do you like it, Brad?    C'mon, give us a review! What's
    keepin ya? ;^)
    
    Well as far as channels go, going from a rather small (6 channel)
    Boss bx-600 mixer to an m160 and still filling it up is rather
    disconcerting, but I still find it easier than trying to sequence
    the volume in my sequencer (ESQ-1 "mix" notwithstanding)... Going
    stereo, picking up an 8-output EPS, a 4-output HR-16, and only dropping
    two channels (the JX-3P)....I think Edd is right, you can never
    have enough channels.
    
    Maybe I should buy a TAC Scorpion....
    
    /pjh

    {accvio} Can't access that page yet ... huh???  You mean you were just
    kidding? 

    Seriously, I've played with a few in the good stores I've been in
    lately (one advantage to being on the road so much) and was real
    impressed.  Probably one of the quietest units I've seen in a while,
    and the controls, even though small, feel *great*. 

    You (generic) remember the cheezy pots and sliders that feel either
    gritty or like they're pressure fitted with plastic?  Well, these feel
    weighted and bearing-loaded (not that they are, but they *feel* that
    way), and there is absolutely no grit whatsoever.  Nice smooth +/-
    grading, too. 

    I think I'm probably going to be quite happy with it. 

    {in a snotty voice} So when's YOUR review, mister?  8-)

-b

    
    re: .-1
    
      Well didn'tcha read my EPS review yet? I got too many new toys
    and I hardly comprehend them yet!
    
      Other than being jerked around by Roland I feel great about getting
    the mixer. I don't understand how Ensoniq can find me a keyboard
    within a week of starting production on the thing, and Roland keeps
    me on backorder for three weeks for a steady-state product. Some
    just-in-time joke I assume....
    
    /pjh

   Well, I got the thing last night and hooked it up.  This is probably
   the quietest board I've ever used.  Even at full bore there is no
   noticable hiss, hum or noise. 

   This unit is rack mountable (4 19" rack spaces), and very light (circa
   12� lbs.).  The power cord is built in.  So is a headphone jack with a
   volume control!  All pots and sliders seem to be high quality. 

   List price is $1095.  I got mine at Jack's Music in NJ for less than
   $760. 

FEATURES

   16 channels.  Per channel features:
     - �" inputs
     - peak signal indicator (grn/red, -24dB to -6dB)
     - attenuation -20dBm to +4dBm (1&2 accept mics ... -50 to -10dBm)
     - 3 FX level pots (post fader)
     - AUX send level pots (pre or post fader switchable)
     - pan pot w/ detent @12 o'clock
     - channel fader slider

   Master section features:
     - left/right slider master faders
     - left/right peak LED meters (vertically oriented, grn/red, -24 to +9)
     - left/right pre-fader signal indicator (-20dB to -6dB)
     - 3 FX send/rtn level pots
     - 1 AUX send/rtn level pot with pan
     - pre/post fader AUX switch (controlls all 16 channels)
     - headphone jack, with level (yay!)

   Master outs are �" or XLR l/r (stereo). 

   4 sends (3 FX, 1 AUX).  FX are mono, returns are mono/stereo; first 2
   have switchable levels (-20/+4), 3rd fixed at +4.  Return 4 is mono. 

   Also 3 extra FX in /AUX ins, allowing these mixers to be stacked. 

   Special "headphones in" jack that sends signal thru mixer to
   headphones only (not routed thru master outs).  Nice for sequencer
   click tracks. 

    May seem like a minor question Brad, but are those FX sends pre or post
    volume fader or switchable?
    
    	db

RE: .65

    The AUX send is switchable pre/post fader, but only on a "per mixer"
    basis.  In short, either all 16 channels are pre, or all 16 are post.
    The 3 FX sends are (and I quote) "Post Fader (after passing the Channel
    Fader)".

    Is this a big deal?  I don't find it limiting.

-b

    This is a really impressive looking little unit - when I saw one
    I did a double take - all that mixing capability (everything but
    EQ) in one rack width!  It's ... dare I say it ... *cute*!
    
    len.
    

    It's not a big deal for most people.  I do something a little bizarre
    with my system so I can use my effects for both keyboards and guitar
    and this requires that I have at least one effects send that can be
    pre fader (cause the fader has to be OFF).
    
    It's not worth going into.

RE: .67

    Great.  I sink $750 clams into a mixer, and it's "cute"?  I wonder what
    label my Fairlight will elicit?  &*} 

-b who_is_NOT_cute

    A little nit: dbm stands for milliwatts on a db scale. An attenuator
    wouldn't marked in dbm's, although a mic input very well could.
    Another less well known symbol is dbmv, which is by standard millivolts
    on a 75 ohm network ( which is your usual video impedance ).
    
    						John.

RE: .70

    I copied everything right out of the manual.  I don't understand all
    the terminology (and don't claim to) - and I'm not much on specs, so
    numbers don't mean much to me anyway.  I rely on my ear.

    For what it's worth ...
    
-b

    re .71:
    
    nobuddy's perfict.

    
    Anybody got the latest price on the Yamaha 8-input rackmount mixer
    (I'm confused, is the KM802 or MV802 the rakcmounted one?) ?
    
    Mike D

    KM802 is not rackmount.. more like a wedge.. clean, though
    
    karl

    
    Does that mean that the MV802 is the rackmount version (I need a
    rackmounted mixer for my gigging setup).
    
    Mike D

re  < Note 1113.73 by MAY10::DIORIO "Cellulite Heroes never really diet" >
>                         -< Yamaha KM802/MV802 prices? >-

    
>    Anybody got the latest price on the Yamaha 8-input rackmount mixer
>    (I'm confused, is the KM802 or MV802 the rakcmounted one?) ?
    
>    Mike D


	Reg

    
    Reg,
    
    Thanks for the price check! That certainly is in my range, but still,
    I need the rackmounted one (MV802 ??? ), and i've heard that for some
    reason it costs significantly more than the table-top (wedge-shaped)
    one.
    
    I want to be sure I have my model number correct if I buy one
    mailorder. Natuarally, wouldn't want the hassle of having to send
    it back and then have them send up the rackmounted version instead.
    
    Mike D

RE < Note 1113.77 by MAY10::DIORIO "Cellulite Heroes never really diet" >

>                 -< Is the MV802 the rackmounted version???? >-

	Yes.

    
    Thank you Dan!
    
    Mike D

    All together now ...

    The MV802 is the rackmounted unit, and should be available for
    somewhere between $275-$300.  I priced one last year (before I got my
    M160) for $315 (but can't remember where). 

    Seems to me that the rackmount version dropped a few controls (when
    compared to the wedge) ... but I could be blowing smoke.  Check
    before U buy.

-b

    
    re -1. Yes, I've checked around, and found out there is quite a
    difference between the rack version and the wedge. Almost different
    animals. The rack version is much better (quieter, more controls,
    more sturdily built for road use, etc.). I got a price of $215 for
    the wedge version and $385 !! for the rack version. Brad, it would
    be great if you could remember who gave you the $315 price (Sam
    Ash?)
    
    Mike D

    I have an MV802 and I love it.  I bought it through Sam Ash a few
    months ago for low $300s (don't remember exactly how much).
    
    		Derek

    
    re -1
    
    Derek,
    
    I just called Sam Ash and they quoted me $347!! Obviously they gave
    you a better price than that.  Have you bought a lot of stuff from
    them or something?
    
    Mike D

Hi everybody. I got a flyer in the mail from Union Music announcing a 
big sale etc. There was a line mixer in the flyer that really caught my 
attention. It's called the Micromix LM-1602. High-Performance 16-channel
keyboard/line mixer.

* Rack mountable
* 4 EFX sends & 4 stereo returns
* 90 db S/N ratio
* Headphone output

list $659  Union Music price $559

Has anyone heard of this? Or better yet has anyone heard this? Is it quiet?
Does anybody know anything about this? It looks to be a cost-effective way to
get 16 channels of mixer. I have never heard of this company before, however.
I wonder how this mixer compares with the Roland M-160.

Mike D

    I'll be there tonight along with a couple other denizens of this
    conference. Maybe we'll be able to tell you more tomorrow...
    
    Edd

Mike D,

I took a look at it. The main thing I didn't like was that if you rack mount
it, you will have to use all right angle connectors for the cables, and you
will lose an extra rack space for the cabling. It plugs in on the end instead
of the back/bottom. It looked like a reasonable mixer at a good price. I
didn't get to hear it though.

dave

  RE:        <<< Note 1113.87 by SUBSYS::ORIN "Got a bad case of VFX" >>>
                             -< bad cabling, good price >-

Dave,

Thanks for the info. How many spaces would you say it takes up (including
the "wasted" space for cabling) ?

Mike D

    I saw it too. Looks like you'd need at least 6 spaces.
    
    I pushed the stereo masters up to 10. It got *noisy*....
    
    Edd

>      <<< Note 1113.89 by WEFXEM::COTE "Throw out your gun and tiara!!" >>>
>                    -< Wierd FX buss switching also.... >
>
>    I saw it too. Looks like you'd need at least 6 spaces.
>    
>    I pushed the stereo masters up to 10. It got *noisy*....
>    
>    Edd

When you say 6 spaces and noisy in the same sentence about a rackmount mixer,
it makes me automatically eliminate from my interest list. Thanks for the 
info Dave and Edd, I think I can safely skip this product. I knew it sounded 
too good to be true!

Mike D

Re: Noise
    
From .0:
        
>>  * Rack mountable
>>  * 4 EFX sends & 4 stereo returns
>>>>>>>>>>  **** 90 db S/N ratio ****
>>  * Headphone output

90 db ain't noisy.  Is it simply not true? Or just the "funny numbers"
    syndrome (non-standard measurement)?
    
    Rodney M.
    

    If the 90 db is an "all faders down" noise measurement, it's 
    noisy.
    
    len.
     

    It was plugged into one of the amps in the keyboard room. The main
    faders were down. I pushed them up and it went
    HHHHHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHSHS.....
    
    I think 90db may have been SPL, not S/N....;^)
    
    The headphone out was pretty quiet....
    
    Edd

    re: .92
    
    Yup, I know; I was wondering if the literature mentioned fader
    position.  
    
    "Oh sure, it's quiet...Oh, you mean you want to run a *signal* through
    it?  Well, uh, gee..."
    
    Rodney
    
    

    Normally, you reference S/N ratio to a standard input signal and and
    while producing a standard output signal level; i.e. at -10 dBm
    (amateur or semi-pro) or +4 dBm (expensive pro). 
                   
    Almost everything sounds quieter with the faders down.
                                                    
    	- bill

Has anyone heard that Peavey 8 input mixer yet? I don't know the model
number, but it takes 2 rack spaces and costs around $200. No EQ in it,
of course. I was wondering how it compared to the Kawai unit noise-wise.

Mike D