Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    The date: April 1978. We were playing at "the Club" in Central Sq.
    Cambridge. We had three bands that night, one which I can't remember,
    and Lorrie Doll and the Tracks. Lorrie Doll decided she didn't like
    us because we had the top billing. Therefore she chose to sit in
    the first row and throw beer bottles at the band. Later when her
    band played she threw beer bottles at our roadie who then proceeded
    to start what ended up making a mess of the club and the equipment.
    We lost about 200 bucks. Surprisingly, we played there many more
    times.
    
    /pjh

    Don't wanna sound like a wet blanket, but this topic, and its sibling
    (Best and Worst Gigs) have been explored extensively in the MUSIC
    conference.  I'm not sure I see the specific relevance to COMMUSIC.
    
    len (who aready has trouble keeping MUSIC, COMMUSIC, DRUMS, GUITARS
    and RECORDS straight).
    

    
    
    Re .-1
    
    I agree. I don't see the relevence of this stuff to the note at
    all.
    					
    							Paul.    

    I tend to agree with Len's persistent remarks about "other places
    for those kinds of topics."  I'd love to read about best/worst gigs,
    the best music for astronauts, the worst music to play on the farm,
    and what you should play for your lover after good sex, but please!
    Not in this notesfile.
    
    There is far too much useful information in this conference for
    it to be bogged down by such topics.
    
    Jay (who's-glad-Len-brought-this-up-first)

< Note 1081.4 by HARDY::JKMARTIN "Jay Martin" >
                              -< Enough, please. >-

What topics about music is this conference restricted to? Why are people's
classified ads in here? What does a microphone have to do with computer
music. If you don't like these topics, don't read them! The topic is
clearly stated when you do a dir command. This conference is also not
for you to take out your pet peaves and frustrations and act as a censor.
If you don't like it, ask the moderator to delete it. Don't waste our time
making us read your complaints.

     Please Dave, don't be upset.  It upsets me.

     I can  see from some of your previous notes that you are definitely
     a COMMUSICian.  Well, you use sequencers and synths etc..

     Now, you probably had all the right intentions when you started the
     topic, but just did  it  too quickly.  That is, you probably wanted
     to  discuss  gigging:  the  good  and  the  not  so  good,  amongst
     COMMUSICians.

     If this is true, then why don't we do this:

     plain old           .---------------.        COMMUSIC/Synth/
     gigging notes ----->| Commusic Note |------> MIDI gig notes
                         | Recycler      |
                         `---------------'

     I would  like  to  hear  about  the highs and lows of COMMUSIC type
     performances.  That  is,  tales specific to synths, MIDI, and other
     high tech gear. (Len even suggested this in his first complaint.)

     Tales anyone?

/Mitch :-)

    WinterJam '87... :^(
    
    So F*****G L O U D len couldn't hear his click track. I could hear
    the bass and attempted to play to that. NFW. Ever try to NOT play
    to the drummer...
    
    'Affectionately' referred to as the WORST gig of our respective
    carreers.
    
    ...and to think we did it in front of all of you!
    
    The shame. The embarrasment. Woulda traded the Mirage and all the
    discs for a bottle of Heineken...
    
    Edd

RE < Note 1081.7 by JAWS::COTE "Throw me down the stairs my hat!" >

>   Woulda traded the Mirage and all the
>    discs for a bottle of Heineken...

	Gee, uh, Edd, do you still feel this way?
    
	Dan

    re: .7
    
>   Ever try to NOT play to the drummer...
    
    If you'd heard some of the drummers I've played with, you wouldn't
    even both to ask.

    It's the biggest reason why I'm pushing the use of metronomes.

>   Affectionately referred to as the WORST gig of our respective
>   careers

    Winterjam 86 was definitely my worst "gig" as well, but I thought
    the "Dreher Twins" set was real good.  Honest.

    It really looked like Len was actually playing real drums!!! ;-)

    Only criticism I have is that I couldn't tell which two of you were
    the twins.

    	db

    I was playing the latest sampling technology, wherein the sound
    of a real drum is miraculously captured in a mylar membrane which
    when struck vibrates suitably.  Velocity sensitive, too!  What's
    more, self-powered from the mechanical energy of the impact!
    What'll they think of next?
    
    To Mr. Orin, my humble apologies, but I felt his not-COMMUSIC-specific
    topics were "cluttering up" the conference as much as my "complaints",
    and suggested a slight retargeting, which we seem to have opted
    for.  I also note that microphones are probably more relevant to
    this conference than to MUSIC, as the subject matter here clearly includes
    recording and sound reinforcement, subjects that when brought up
    in the context of MUSIC usually elicit a "GOTO COMMUSIC" response.
    Perhaps I overreacted, but the sudden barrage of topics that had
    already been discussed at great length in MUSIC and that did not
    seem to be specifically related to synthesis, recording, sequencing,
    etc., triggered a "knee jerk" response.
    
    The WinterJam '86 "performance" was a disaster.  We had put a monitor
    next to my kit so I could hear the bass, and then the sound guys
    cleverly routed all the synths through it (though I could hear them
    fine anyway).  The synths were so loud I couldn't hear the bass
    or my click track (though *headphones*!).  Of course, when we told
    them to send us more bass, they sent more synths too.
    
    And of course, just that morning we had knocked off the set in
    rehearsal absolutely flawlessly.
                                           
    Another great moment in live MIDI performance was when my old band's
    guitarist forget what key we played "Surfin USA" in, and started
    the tune in a key different from that dutifully remembered by the
    sequencer.  This little polytonal excursion was not what we had
    in mind.
    
    len.
    

    After nearly two weeks, the wounds of the last concert have closed
    over.  _What a mess_!  I'm glad nobody showed up!
    
    Problem 1) Keyboardists who set their own monitor levels.  Always
    about 12 dB too loud.  I guess our lead had wax in his ears this
    time; he was about 15 dB too loud.  So loud that he interfered with
    the house mix!
    
    Problem 2) Drummers who insist on using the acoustomechanical
    transducers instead of a nice clean Octapad and HR-16.  This guy
    was pushing 90 dB in the front row, with NO sound reinforcement
    whatsoever.  He was an ultimate headache, as there was no way to
    "pot him down" and balance the mix.
    	
    Problem 3) Backing keys, bass, etc. who see that "monitor wars" are
    happening and insist on participating.
    	                   
    
    Problem 4) Keyboardists who say "I can mix my own keys; all the
    big board needs is a stereo from my local board".  And insist
    on it.  Keyboardists like this need to have their knuckles broken
    with a 18" pipe wrench.  
    
    Problem 5) Drummers and lead keys who are so intent on having a
    rock-n-roll time they can't do an orderly soundcheck.  Time for
    the Mace.
    
    ---------------
    
    How bad was it?  Well, several times I _shut down_ the house sound
    because it was too damn loud and unbalanced.  There's no way to
    pot down a local-line monitor; I went up on stage a couple of times
    to do it but was unable to get to the monitor amp because the
    appropriate band member was blocking the path!
    
    ---------------
    
    Yes, that bad.  I have since informed the band that I will NEVER EVER
    play/mix a concert with them again unless they accede to MY demands: 
    	
    There will be NO local monitoring except through headphones or monitors
    controlled through a mix under MY control;
    	
    The drummer WILL go electronic;                             
    
    There will be NO local mixing- all instruments will have direct
    feeds to the house board.	
                                                         
    If you can't get your act together long enough to do a proper
    soundcheck, you don't play. Well, you can play, but you ain't gonna
    play with me. 
                  
    -------------------
    
    I'll walk first.  This is BY FAR the worst concert mix I have ever
    done.  I'm honestly ashamed of it, and it will NOT happen again.
    
                  

    
    Everything sounds O.K. and reasonable, with the following exceptions:
    
    I have seen a mix work where there was only 1 feed from the keyboards.
    When a keyboard player balances all of his signals coming out of
    the instrument, this isn't such a hard thing.
    
    I have played in many bands when the drummer was not mic'ed, and
    the way to deal with that is to have the drummer match the volume
    of everyone else, or else have the drummer play the volume he intends
    on playing at, and then bringing the sound (mix) up or down to match.
    If you *insist* on electronic percussion *only*, you are:
    
    	1) limiting yourself as a sound man
    
    	2) probably going to be looking for work.
    
    I know that if you told me the only way you were going to be my
    sound man was if I used electronic drums, I'd tell you to hit the
    trail.
    
    It sounds like you had a lot of prima-donnas, but don't tell the
    drummer to change instruments; tell him he's going to have to balance
    with the band or else he'll sound like crap and he'll be looking
    for a new sound man.
    
    Ashley

    last week we played at a place where the popcorn popper (and probably
    everything else) was on the same circuit that the PA system /Keyboards
    were on. Everything sounded real distorted, and the Hammond M3 was
    way out of tune (It has an electric moter, used with the sound
    generator). Things were not working right. I found another outlet
    (about 50 feet away) after the first set, and this fixed the problem.
    We thought that we had a sudden massive failure of all of our equipment
    (lightning strikes have been known to cause this). Needless to say,
    the first set left something to be desired. 
    
    I always carry 2 50 foot extension cords with me, and I put a 25
    foot cord on my Twin Reverb (which has 4 additional power outlets
    built into the back, with RF filters, and transient suppressors
    on those outlets). I suspect that our set up uses 10 to 12 amps
    (including the lighting system), and I know that we have knocked
    out the power in some places when we were plugged into a heavily
    used circuit. Power problems sure are fun!!!
    
    							Jens 

    re .-2;
    	Yeah, it's a prima-donna problem; everybody wants to be the
    loudest. 
    
    	I suppose if the keyboardist actually bothers to work his own
    board, it could be effective.  However, this one didn't do anything
    but play keys.  My board showed 28 dB level shifts between keyboards
    on his racks.  He noticed it too- but he didn't do anything about
    it.
    	
    	And the #1 drummer- he's good and he knows it.  And he loves to
    play loud, 'cuz he's getting deaf from playing in super-loud bands.
    He says he doesn't like electronics- I think it's not because they
    "don't sound as good".  It's because they can be potted down.  I'm
    going to push that the #2 drummer (who's an Octapad/Simmons freak)
    takes over.  He's not as good- but he's not a jerk.               
    
    	Actually, there _was_ one person who didn't screw around- the
    vocalist.  She was the most professional-acting of them all.  And
    also has a great voice.
      
    ----------------------
    
    If I never played with the band again, I would be depressed... but not
    as depressed as I would be if I did another mix as bad as this most
    recent one.  I didn't even try to do the special effects from the
    DX-100; I didn't have enough free brain cells. 
    
    Let's hope someone out there in VAXNOTESland learns something from
    my misery.  (like the soundman should carry a sidearm... silenced,
    of course. :-) ) 
                                                        
    I'll let y'all know if I'm available to mix another band.  :-(
                    

    Something you can try - tape the gig, and play it back to the band.
    " Geez, what happened to the keys? "
    " That guitar is out of tune. "
    " Those drums are too much. "
    
    I bet they're just oblivious to the sound levels and mix. Too busy
    concentrating on the performance.
    
    " It takes towtow concentwation " - Bruce Lee.

    I did tape it.  Unfortunately, I taped house-mix-before-faders,
    not a pair of microphones in the house.  Of course that mix was
    correct.  It's just not what the audience heard...
    	
    My mistake!
    	                                    
    The band _has_ heard the tape.  They thought it was O.K.... buncha
    tin ears :-)  .  Maybe chasing the lead kb. around the house afterwards
    with the international symbol of choking (toward _him_, not _me_)
    made an impression on him :-) .
    	                           
    Hey, I feel better about it after flaming to you all.  Thanks!
                                                      

    Last January I taped myself at the Marlboro Public Library (no
    audience). I had all the equipment in the car, and carried it down
    front steps and a flight of stairs: video camera, VCR ( I couldn't
    get rid of clicking noise in the camcorder), 2 500W lights,
    spx90,rds1900, preamp, PZM mic, cables.  I set it all up.
    I had no help.
    I recorded an hour and twenty minutes of music, plus I had to play
    the forty-minute piece twice because there was no sound recorded
    the first time (after I did 3 sound checks).
    I then picked off some intercuts, closeups, and left the camera
    rolling while I put everything away (did I say I put up a blue paper
    background behind me, and had to take down Xmas decorations?).
    I then took everything up the stairs and put it in my car.
    It took ca. 4 hours out of my day, or more, and I was exhausted
    afterwards.  That recital will show on marlboro cable in a week,
    and maybe somerville or somplace before long.
    Did I mention that I had to take the stuff down 2 flights at my
    apartment, and back up when I got back.
    Most of the equipment was on loan from cable tv, so I had to be
    careful with it.
    Tom

    After all that, I certainly hope you got at least a copy of the
    video tape for yourself! Classic story, too busy lugging the equipment
    to make eyes at the women.
    
    						John.

    re: power problems....my favorite is when the board ends up on a
    different phase of ac than the power amps etc. up on stage...nice
    experiments with 60 cycle hum can be conducted....of course if you
    actually wanted to use the system you've gotta run some extension
    cords....
            
    db2

    \
    re: Bill and the keyboard player
    
      As one of those keyboard players who usually just sends a stereo
    or mono feed to the soundperson... there are reasons for this.
    
      I have worked with probably 70 or 75 soundpersons in my career
    as well as being one myself for the last 9 years. I like to be flexible
    with my keyboard setup; rarely have I met a soundperson who was
    willing to mix the keyboards without knowing the tunes. A
    well-rehearsed band should know how loud it is playing and what
    it's balance sounds like. I know, I spent the last year working
    out three sets of material and I had to figure out how to get enough
    hands free to work my mixer at times. I give myself a stage monitor;
    but I point it at ME away from the house - this way I can shut down
    the house send and futz with patches and debug problems without
    broadcasting it through the house system. I let the soundperson
    send me back thru the monitors to the rest of the band.
    
      I think the moral of the story is two-fold. What can you expect
    of your soundperson? Does he/she have a 36-channel snake to accomodate
    14 channels of drums, 8 channels of keyboards, 5 vocals, etc. etc,?
    usually we get 16 channels instead and the drums eat half. I'm usually
    lucky to get two channels of snake in the first place.
    
      Second, what should the soundperson expect from the band? Well,
    obviously you would hope that the band knows what it is doing. It
    is generally poor etiquette to go flaming at a performer before
    or during a gig. Likewise, performers shouldn't flame at a soundperson
    before, during or after the gig. Non-constructive and it makes for
    a guaranteed bad performance because the karma is tense. Maybe I've
    just set some high expectations here. But I think that a truly
    professional group would follow both lessons and be rehearsed as
    well (another thing most bands don't understand how to do)....
    
      So I don't agree with your point on keyboard players who send
    submixes. if you can accept all my keyboards and you promise to
    mix them, and you care enough to, and you got enough D/I boxes to
    take all my outputs, be my guest! I can't remember the last time
    I got someone else to do all of that for me.
    
    /pjh

    Well, I didn't want to say anything, but I agree with PJH.
    
    The main points are that there are lots of good reasons for wanting
    to send a submix, lots of good reasons NOT to send them individual
    instruments and I wouldn't yell at a soundman and I expect them
    not to yell at me. 
    
    	db

    
    > soundman not familiar with the songs
    	
    I am _intimately_ familiar with these songs.  I go to the rehearsals
    same as any other member, I play the weird-noise sounds, and about
    1/4 the patches in the synths were written by _me_ in the first
    place.                         
    
    
    
    > not enough sends in the snake
    	
    We had a big Yamaha board with matching snake; there were 12 or
    so unused channels on the board. (board was rented).  There *was*
    adequate channel space, enough direct boxes, etc.  The decision
    to monitor locally was strictly motivated by the kb-ist
    
    The irksome thing is not that it was so bad, but that it could have
    been so much better.
    
    
    
    > The musicians aren't there for the sound guy, he's there for the...
    
    Not really. Both the musicians and the sound guy are there for the
    audience.  That's the bottom line.   The audience.  Not the musicians,
    not the sound guy, not the lighting people.
           
    
    
    (yes, I know not to flame at _any_ other performer in front of the
    public.  Not even if they start making up verses to "cocaine" during
    the song.  :-)  
    
    I jest, of course.  "Cocaine" was one of the best pieces in the 
    second set, even if the only lyrics shared between our version and
    the album are ".....cocaine...")