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Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Title:	* * Computer Music, MIDI, and Related Topics * *
Notice:	Conference has been write-locked. Use new version.
Moderator:	DYPSS1::SCHAFER

Created:	Thu Feb 20 1986
Last Modified:	Mon Aug 29 1994
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	2852
Total number of notes:	33157

1047.0. "Programming "Shuffle" in Roland Drum Machines" by DRUMS::FEHSKENS () Tue Dec 08 1987 10:09

   I have gotten enough questions about how the TR-707's "shuffle" 
   feature works that I thought I'd post this for the general 
   consumption of Roland drum machine users.  I believe the 505 and 
   626 support similar features.
   
   The -707's manual is singularly unhelpful in explaining this feature.
   It talks about "bounce" notes applied to "crotchets", which is wrong
   abd misleading.  Crotchet is the British term for a quarter note,
   and the feature doesn't add any notes, and certainly not to quarter 
   notes.
   
   First off, let me say that I believe the feature as implemented 
   borders on worthless.  This is because it is applied to pairs of
   16th notes, rather than to pairs of 8th notes.
   
   What is a shuffle, anyway?  For a longer discussion, I refer you to 
   my note in the MUSIC conference, "Drums and Drumming for the 
   Musically Literate NonDrummer", note 103.  For the nonce, suffice
   it to say that a shuffle "redistributes" the time of the eighth note
   pulse typically manifested as the ride beat.  It provides the 
   difference between "straight" time and a "swing" feel.  In jazz
   drumming, there are two swing feels, based on eigth note triplets
   (sometimes called "12/8" feel) or on dotted eighths and sixteenths.
   
   Consider a bar of 4/4.  The ride beat plays two pulses per quarter
   note:
   
   	1           2           3           4
   	................................................
   	x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x
   	*     *     *     *     *     *     *     *
   
   This is "straight time".
   
   Now, if we delay the second pulse of each pair just a little, so 
   the first is now a dotted eighth instead of a plain eighth, and the 
   second is a sixteenth, we have the classic shuffle:
   
   	1           2           3           4
   	................................................
   	x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  
  	*        *  *        *  *        *  *        *
   
   The "anticipatory" pulses before 2 and 4 are often omitted to 
   provide the classic jazz ride beat:
   
   	1           2           3           4
   	................................................
   	x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x  x
   	*           *        *  *           *        *
   
   For a more relaxed feel, the beat is subdivided into three instead 
   of four parts, and the shuffle looks like:
   
   	1           2           3           4
   	................................................
   	x   x   x   x   x   x   x   x   x   x   x   x
   	*       *   *       *   *       *   *       *
   
   This is the 12/8 feel, because it can be renotated as a bar of 12/8:
   
                                            1   1   1
   	1   2   3   4   5   6   7   8   9   0   1   2
   	................................................
   	*       *   *       *   *       *   *       *   
   
   So, you can think of the shuffle as moving the "1/2"s (i.e.,
   the 8th notes "between" the beats) further away from the notes they
   follow, and thus closer to the notes they precede.
   
   Now, this is in fact what the shuffle feature of the -707 does, but 
   it does it to pairs of 16th notes, rather than pairs of 8th notes.
   So, if you program a straight 8th ride beat, turn on the shuffle 
   feature, and listen, expecting to get a "swing" feel, you'll be 
   disappointed - you won't hear any difference, because there is none, 
   given the way the -707 implements the shuffle.  You'd have to 
   program the ride beat as 16th notes!  And everything else was well,
   so your 4/4 bars would become 4/8 bars, and your tempo indications 
   would be off by a factor of 2.
   
   I haven't the vaguest notion as to why Roland did it this way, 
   other than the fact that nobody on their staff knew anything about 
   drumming.
   
   len.

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
1047.1	click, clickclick, clickclick,...	FROST::HARRIMAN	Vive technica	`Tue Dec 08 1987 12:02`	18
	> I haven't the vaguest notion as to why Roland did it this way, > other than the fact that nobody on their staff knew anything about > drumming. Probably easier to implement it in hardware. After playing with this myself (much to my frustration) I think it seems to work by moving the off-beats along the sync pulse frame (a lot like how you described it in .-1 only in more detailed form). Particularly infuriating is the fact that ALL voices get "shuffled", so you can't do anything more sophisticated rhythmically than a straight "shuffle" beat. Useless. I just end up doing it using chained patterns and a faster meter. Paul Harriman, Principal Programmer Analyst, Burlington VT I.S. /pjh
1047.2	Now Featuring 42 Useless Things That Are Easy To Implement!	DRUMS::FEHSKENS		`Tue Dec 08 1987 13:12`	15
	Paul's remarks remind of two things I left out - First, as Paul notes, all voices get the shuffle applied to them, so, for example, you can't keep straight time in the bass drum (8 1/8s to the bar) with a shuffle in the ride. Second, the shuffleness is remembered per pattern, so you can set different amounts of shuffle on a pattern by pattern basis. I just don't bother using this feature. If I want a shuffle, I program it explicitly. len.
1047.3	It don't mean a thing if it ain't got dat Swing	DREGS::BLICKSTEIN	Dave	`Tue Dec 08 1987 13:37`	10
	Very interesting Len. My Casio RZ-1 has a "swing" function which I've never understood. The setting of the feature is described as a percentage if I remember correctly. I can now go home and make some experiments now that I know what to listen to. db
1047.4	Dealing from the bottom of the deck...	HPSTEK::RHODES		`Wed Dec 09 1987 09:12`	6
	This feature does sound useless. I've always explicitly programmed in shuffles on the TR505. Looks like a marketing feature to me (gee, the Roland has "shuffle", and no other manufacturer supports it). Todd.
1047.5	More shuffling	4TRACK::LAQUERRE		`Wed Dec 09 1987 13:03`	25
	Speaking of shuffle patterns, I recently programmed my TR-505 with a shuffle like the "relaxed" one that Len talked about in .0: 1 2 3 4 ................................................ x x x x x x x x x x x x * * * * * * * * However, as soon as I let the closed high hat tick out this rhythm, the machine suddenly sounded like a Holiday Inn nightclub act. Something about the tick-ticktick-ticktick made it sound cheap and thin--like the rhythym section on a studio organ. I guess the rhythm called too much attention to the closed high hat sound. It took me a while, but I finally found a way to let the congas keep the shuffle beat while the high hat kept the straight 1, 2, 3, 4 rhythm. So to me, the shuffle is a handy type of rhythm, but I found it important to program it in manually, otherwise it didn't sound too hot. Peter
1047.6		FROST::HARRIMAN	How do I work this?	`Wed Dec 09 1987 15:10`	18
	re: .-1 ahh, so the design is product-line-wide (at least for that product line :-)) Point of interest... the sync pulse coming out of the thing seems to be consistent... i.e. if you have a 727 connected to the sync port on the 707 and you are shuffling with the 707, you are not necessarily shuffling on the 727. This is a good thing - the MIDI clock pulse also doesn't get "shuffled" (thank someone at Roland) either - good thing, since I use my 707 to drive the ESQ-1's sequencer which then drives everything else. If it was shuffled itself I would have got shuffled shuffles on the ESQ-1. Now that's a thought.... Ahh well, it sure is useless. /pjh
1047.7	I want to be literated	MINDER::KENT	But there's no hole in the middle	`Thu Dec 10 1987 04:44`	11
	Re .0. Every time someone mentions the hallowed Drums_for_none_literate etc note I have intended asking this question but have never had the courage. Well now that I have come out of the closet and admitted that playing with myself is my favourite hobby, could someone tell me where I could find the aforementioned note. Thanks in advance. Paul.
1047.8		BAXTA::BOTTOM_DAVID	Not so famous rock star	`Thu Dec 10 1987 07:24`	1
	DREGS::MUSIC note 103 enjoy!
1047.9	Now for the real thing	MINDER::KENT	But there's no hole in the middle	`Thu Dec 10 1987 08:29`	4
	Ever so greatfull, Thanks. Paul.
1047.10	128th notes for shuffle #3 !!!!!	SRFSUP::MORRIS	To live and die and breathe smog	`Thu Dec 10 1987 22:23`	37
	The shuffle feature is not totally useless, but does NOT create a shuffle. Re .0 -- The shuffle rhythm is created by putting triplets into a normally eighth note based rhythm: 1 e & ah2 e & ah3 e & ah4 e & ah * * * * * * * * becomes 1 a let 2 a let 3 a let 4 a let * * * * * * * * pardon the "drummer counting method", but it's the best way to relate verbally the sound. When a drummer "shuffles" a rhythm, he is changing the field from a 4/4 (16/16) to a 12/8. What our friendly 626 and the like do is give you dotted notes. The 626 has 3 or 4 shuffle modes, and they go from dotted to double dotted, to triple dotted, to quadruple dotted. This is great if you are writing scotch pipe band snare drum parts, or doing a 27th Lancers drum and bugle corps imitation, but it don't mean a thing if she's only seventeen. I mean if it ain't got that swing. When I want a real shuffle, or swing, I change the scale from 4 quarter notes to 16 eighth notes grouped in triplets, and go from there. Last night I programmed Dave Brubeck's (Joe Morello - drums) Take 5----a swing feel in 5/4!!�� and it worked fantastic. Bop ba dah shoo be do wah hey ba ba re bop flamadiddle inverted ratamacue back-stick flam-drag. Ashley
1047.11	once a drummer, always a drummer	FROST::HARRIMAN	How do I work this?	`Fri Dec 11 1987 08:20`	5
	re: .-1 You sound like a drummer. At least you sound like mine! 8^) He says that stuff all the time 8^)
1047.12	Does This Mean Another Chapter to Music 103?	DRUMS::FEHSKENS		`Wed Dec 16 1987 16:03`	16
	All drummers do it. It's interesting to compare the sounds drummers make when they pretend to be their drumset. The Indians (as in the Asian subcontinent, not as in American) have developed this to a fine art, in fact when you learn Indian drumming you are first taught how to "sing" your part before you leanr how to play it. Even in performance Indian drummers will often sing a part they are about to play. Some American drummer has published a book of "standard" sounds for the typical trap set, called ChoomBoonk or something like that. It's sometimes advertised in the back pages of Modern Drummer. Chidabadoomp. len.