Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    First I have to say, that at THIS moment I'm not particularly motivated
    to take up the ball on organizing this.  I think we do need some
    organization and of course at every purchase, someone needs to do
    the legwork of getting quotes.
    
    Perhaps we should start with a discussion of how you "get into the
    loop".  I've created informal buyers unions and the following
    information needs to be known:
    
    1) What EXACTLY you are looking for
    
    2) What is YOUR top price (above which you would "pass")
    
    3) Understanding the committments.  You can not "order" something
       and then "change your mind" because that affects the whole deal.
       Trust me, it's very important that what is agreed upon is clearly
       understood and honored.  There is significant risk here.
    
    4) Money transfers
    
    5) How you WITHDRAW your "order".  We don't want to have someone
       ordering 3 HR-16's only to discover that 2 people bought them
       somewhere else and don't want them anymore (see also "committments")

    I'm very busy right now.  It would be great if someone would draft
    an informal proposal for public comment.
    
    	db

    I'm willing to put together a spreadsheet so that the costs and
    savings of a bulk purchase can be shared equitably.
    
    Why is this necessary? Because in a bulk purchase (3 MKS-20s, 2
    MIDIVerb IIs, 6 HR-16s, etc...) you're going to have some items like
    the MVIIs that you'll probably find a larger price differential
    between dealers, while items like the HR-16s are gonna be hard to
    find a discount on for a while. I don't think the MVII purchasers
    should subsidize the HR-16 purchasers beyond the power of buying
    in bulk.
    
    It'd be tricky to do, but methinks assuming the Lotus 1-2-3 position
    for a couple hours would yield something...
    
    Comments?
    
    Edd

    Just so we have something to shred, I'll propose the following.
    Note that I am NOT volunteering as the "trusted party", but I do
    have a particular store (amenable to haggling and package deals)
    that I will contact...
    
    
    		Flaming Tomatoes Here, folks...
    
    
    By the first of a month, you put in bids on gear.  You do this by
    sending a money order in to some "trusted party" for the maximum you
    are willing to pay for it.  That bid represents a COMMITMENT to
    purchase for that value or less, and gaurantees that if the gear is
    purchased, that will be the most that is paid for it. Shipping by
    UPS/FedEx is included in your bid. 
    
    (Why a money order rather than a check?  So that we can truly claim
    "cash in hand")
                 
    All bids ought to be recieved by, say, the 1'st of the month.  The
    list (who, piece, bid $) goes into a topic note.
    
    By the 7th of the month, each participant shops their favorite contact
    store. They get a total cost for all bids, with a line-by-line
    breakdown.  Each stores results are posted in a reply note in this months
    topic.
    
    If a store can't sell at less or equal to bid price, the best price
    is posted, but no gear will be bought.  That way, if the bidder
    rethinks his position, he can up his bid.
    
    On the 8'th, the store with the lowest TOTAL cost gets the order.
    
    If a store does not carry one or more manufacturers, then the winning
    store is the one which gives the lowest prices on that subset of
    things it does carry (or can order at a gauranteed price).  The
    money orders are sent to the store, and they UPS the material out.
    
    If the winning store does not carry what you bid on, you can NOW
    ask for a refund.  You have until the 15'th to post your refund
    request.
    
    By the 15'th, all stores are re-contacted for a new line-by-line
    on the remaining items.  Results are posted in the monthly note.
    Those that want refunds have them.  
                
    If you haven't asked for a refund by the 15'th, the material WILL
    be purchased at the best price (provided that it is less than your
    bid price)                            
         
                                                   
    On the first of next month, the cycle repeats...
    

    
    	This is a question, not a tomato;
    
    	What if the lowest total price doesn't get me the lowest price
    for my item ?  i.e. 
    
    a)  How can I then back out and go it alone ?  
    
    b)	If ans to a) is  "Ya can't !".  Then why should I be subsidizing
    	the other partys ?   [Yeah, I'm a nice guy, but not when it
    	comes to paying an extra $50 so that someone I don't know can
    	save $51]

   		Reg
    
        
    

RE < Note 1041.3 by CTHULU::YERAZUNIS "Snowstorm Canoeist" >

	How are delayed shipments dealt with?

	Dan

    I see a problem...
    
    When you make a BIG order, are you likely to know the actually price
    *you* paid for any piece??
    
    Ex:   HR-16s go for 450. MLP. no discount in quantities of 1
          DX7 go for 1600 easy to get get discount to 1400...
    	  MKS-nn go for 2850, can be had for 2500
    
    So we order...
    
            10 HR16s                    4500...
    	     5 DX7                      8000...
             2 MKS-nn                   5700..
                                      _________
             List                     18,200
               -    (5*200)            1,000
                    (2*350)              700
                                      _________
             net                      16,500
    
    ...but since such a big order we get it for 16,000 flat. 
    
    How do we split the $500???
    
    Edd
    

    re -.1   
    	5 DX7 for $8k?
    
    At the Guitar Center in Hollyweird they cost $899!!��

    
    	Well, an *ALTERNATIVE* might be to establish ourselves as a
    buying group with all the usual outlets.  Then we could individually
    ask for the decommusic additional discount (hopefully > 0) on single
    items.  Dunno how to do this, incorporate as .....???, not for profit
    buying group ???

    	Reg
    

    In response to Ed's "how do we divide up the savings?"
    
    Well, assuming you will save more as the price of the product goes
    up, we just take a percentage of the total price for each item;
     e.g., making Edd's example simpler:
    
    	1 item for    $100
    	1 item for    $200
    	1 item for     $50
    
       total	      $350
    
    
    	Say we get a discount of $50  -- total is now $300
    
    	Take each item, divide by total cost:
    
    		$200/$350 = 57%
    		$100/$350 = 29%
    		$50/$350  = 14%
    
    	So, the person who bought the $200 dollar item gets $50*(57%)
    = $28.50
    
    	the person who bought the $100 item gets $50*(29%) = $14.50
    
    	etc.
    
    
    How's that sound?
    
    	Ron

    Actually, I hadn't envisioned it that way- I had more a "you pays
    what the store with the lowest price claims is the line-item cost".
    If you overbid, you get a refund.  If you underbid, you get the
    opportunity to revise the bid or withdraw it.
    
    That way, you couldn't get an incredible deal on a DX7iiFD by bidding
    $50 on it... you would not find a store willing to part with the
    DX7iiFD for that little on the line-item cost.  If we split straight
    percentagewise, it might be possible that a dealer would be able to put
    together a package (say, 10 DX7iiFD's) and be lower than all others.
    So, he gets the order.  There's enough money in the kitty to pay off
    the order.  So the order goes through.  But the other 9 DX buyers have
    subsudized this cheapskate.  That's not very fair.  But you have
    no way of assuring that this cheapskate will cough up the other
    $800.
    
    Likewise, people who grossly overbid (i.e. Microverb for $500) would
    not be penalized because we found a dealer selling them for $150.
    If we split the return percentagewise, that $350 would be parceled
    out to everyone who had a part in the order, even if they just ordered
    a 1/4" cable.  I'd rather see the entire $350 go back to the poor
    guy who overbid it.
    
    That's why I don't think percentage kickbacks are a good idea, unless
    you can set (accurately) the amount of cash each item should go
    for a priori, and prevent under/overbids.  
    
    Maybe we do need an extra phase in there, so that when people see
    what various line items cost (versus their bids) they can revise
    (upward) their bids if they're willing to go the extra amount.
    That would push the actual ordering of the big order back to the 15th.
                                                        
    I bet there's a bug in here, waiting to bite us...
    

    
    Let's hope the dealers don't get together and form a Dealers' Union
    to see how much they can push up the price of your addiction!
    Over here, that's technically illegal (known as a 'price ring'),
    and petrol stations, for example, have been sued by consumer 
    organisations.
    
    But what if the dealer you usually ring for a keen
    price tells you neither he, nor any other dealer he knows, is prepared
    to drop below a certain sum? Am I being naive to think that, in
    a place as big as the States, this is possible?
    
    Richard. 

I don't mean to be a big ripe, juicy beefsteak tomato, but the people in 
the Macintosh notes file tried this and found that most of the mail 
order dealers are already giving a huge discount due to the fact that 
they do quite a volume, and thus wouldn't really move on their prices.
What they did accomplish, however, was to find a few places with the 
best individual price.  They then all went their own way.

Note that this may not be applicable to music equipment.  It is still 
worth a try (something tells me that Profound will deal).  Also, note 
that sales tax is now applicable to mail order purchases and is the same
percentage as the state the item is shipped to.  So now mail order purchases
include both tax *and* shipping.  This double whammy may make it cheaper
to deal with a local dealer...

Todd.

    Re: sales tax.
    
    There's plenty of NH folk in this conference, including me.
    
    re: percentage discounts vs line-item.
    
    My feeling is that using the line-item method is the most fair however
    I think both are acceptable.
    
    Regarding the objection to discountable item buyers subsidizing
    fair traded or fixed price items:
    
    1) Maybe you wouldn't have gotten that much of a discount on the
       DX if the order didn't include the 10 HR-16s.
    
    2) That amount you "bid" should be your idea of a "good price".
       You should be happy with that.
    
    The overall idea being that you CAN NOT measure the individual benefit
    that each person contributes.  This is a "union" and this is just
    part of being in a union.  If the Union works (and I suspect it
    will) you will end up with lower prices than you could have got
    outside the union even if you're buying discounted merchanidise.
    
    If you're going to take the attitude that "I should get more because
    my item ______", don't join the union.  There's no place for that
    kind of attitude in a buyers union.
    
    	db

    Tell me more about this sales tax on interstate shipping.  
    
    Are you sure it doesn't only apply on items mail-ordered within
    the SAME state?  Something in the Constitution (Article VIII ?)
    specifically removes the authority of states to impede, tax, or
    regulate intERstate commerce (not so for intRAstate commerce).
    
    Or is this some new interpretation that I haven't seen yet?
    	
    Note- I have seen a couple of shady retailers charging tax no matter
    where you are.  If you're out of state, they keep the money as an added
    cut of profit.  Example: Publisher's Central Bureau.  I have sent them
    checks for amount+no sales tax, they cashed the check, and sent me the
    merchandise.... and did not hassle me for further money.
                               
    

    re: .14

    In theory, whenever you bring stuff into the people's republic of
    Massachussetts, you have to pay a (get this) "Use Tax" for it.
    
    This "use tax" certainly applies to musical equipment and so those
    of you who are residents of the 'Common wealth' (what a great name
    for that state) will have to take care of the use tax on your
    own.
    
    	db
    
    p.s. Isn't it ironic how this is the state that commemerates
         the Boston Tea Party: the symbol of protest against unfair
         and excessive taxation?

re: -.1
    
>    p.s. Isn't it ironic how this is the state that commemerates
>         the Boston Tea Party: the symbol of protest against unfair
>         and excessive taxation?

Not true as far as implications go.  Back then they were taxed without
representation.  We had nobody in the government that really represented
how *WE* felt.  Instead, there was a ruling party that represented the
views of a few who hardly paid any taxes or who had only their own very
personal, self-centered interests at heart.  Why, today we are represented
by respected and honorable elected officials like Michael Dukakis (famous for
drafting one of the state's biggest tax increases, then famous for getting
rid of it), Teddy Kennedy (oooooh, don't say Chapiquiddick (sp?), after all
he's forgotten it, why shouldn't everybody else?), Barney Frank (a proud, 
self-proclaimed Sodomite), Whatsizname Studz (another proud, self-proclaimed 
Sodomite), and ....

Hey, wait a minute! Gee, db, I'm sorry ... you're right!  Maybe we should
organize a Boston Lottery-Tickets Party.  (We'd have, what, about ten flavors
of lottery tickets to flavor the harbor with?)  By the way, it's not
that I don't like these guys.  I just don't like what they *DO*.


Steve_who_looks_forward_to_voting_against_his_*favorite*_candidates
_and_who_lives_in_the_state_where_the_governor_figures_the_way_to_refund
_after_over-taxation_is_to_promise_to_reduce_taxes_two_years_later (no joke!)

>    Back then they were taxed without representation.
    
    Having lived in NH while working in Mass, and thusly having paid
    the "Non-resident" income tax, I can tell you with great assurance
    that taxation without representation is still practiced in Mass.
    
    	db
    
    P.S. I am also voting against Dukakis, the candidate who rode Reagan the
         hardest about the Iran/Contra affair and then resorted to the
         same exusatory tactics as Reagan when it was revealed that
         the Biden tape came from his campaign.

    my RATHOLE MONITOR just went "BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!"

    I think someone is being ripped off with "out-of-state sales tax"
    
    I (within the last 24 hours) bought, via telephone and credit card,
    a 3-day pass to Walt Disney World, to be mailed to my home.
    
    Price was 55.95, plus two dollars P&H.  Total cost- 57.95 .
    No tax.
    
    I would think that WDW would be up on their tax law.  They have
    enough lawyers...

    Out-of-state salestax does sound like a rip-off, but even if not,
    it's a non issue for the Commusic Buyers Union.
    
    There's plenty of New Hampshire addresses in this conference.
    
    	db

    Re: "Out-of-state" sales tax
    
    A company is required to charge sales tax on a mail order _if_
    the customer (i.e. destination) is in a state where the company
    has business offices _and_ that state charges a sales tax.
    
    ...can't remember where I read that...but my experience seems to
    bear this out....
    
    						-Jeff

The info in .21 seems correct to me too.

I bought tires for my car (mail order, from a different state) two weeks 
ago and was charged Mass sales tax.  They claimed that a new law had passed
that taxes all mail order items at the rate of the receiving state.  I thought
I read about this as well.

Maybe I have been ripped off.  The obvious solution would have been to buy
music equipment from a reputable dealer instead, and drive on rims.  I 
do have my priorities, don't ya know.

Todd.

    Profound sound is charging tax
    
    dave

    
    Re: tax
    
    One thing that I had read (how true it is, who knows) is that MA
    is one state that has a "finder's fee" for taxes.  
    
    Let's say you order $10.00 worth of stuff from Blatz, Inc.  Blatz
    charges you 50 cents sales tax, at the going rate of 5%.  They send
    part of that to MA revenue department, but get to keep some as a
    "fee" for collecting the tax.
    
    Such a law is intended to get mail-order businesses which do *not*
    fall under the "in-state outlet" statute to collect the tax for
    MA.  That way, the state gets part of what they feel they are obligated
    to, and the merchant gets to pocket an extra percent or two on every
    order.