Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Well, except for the "piano touch", either the ESQ-1 or the SQ-80
    fill every condition you ask.  Try the keyboards and see if you
    like them.  An Ultimate Support Apex stand and a 20-watt Crate amp
    and you have it all there.  If you're going to do church then you
    probably can get along with a Fruit-o-the-Loom roadcase (wrap the
    synth in a towel to protect it on the road.)  The ESQ-1 goes for
    1400, the SQ-80 for 1900, so you probably want the -1.
                         
    	ESQ-1 	1400                                        
    	foot ped  10
    		  90	(spare patch cartridge for ESQ-1 - holds 80
    				voices) *
    		 110	(sequencer expander cartridge- expands seq.
    				to 10,000 notes from 2000) *
    	Apex	 130
    	Crate	 275
    	cable	free	(if the store doesn't toss in the cable on this
    				big an order, find another store!)
    	        -----
                1985	   which leaves you with 15$ to get some sheet
    			music.  You can do without the *'s for a long
    			time, there's another 200$.
    
    
    (How to do the 60-key octave?  Easy.  Just route KBD to each of
    the three DCO's at -50 or so modulation.  That'll stretch one 
    octave about the length of the keyboard.  You can vary the "stretch"
    as you want.... 0 is no stretch at all, positive numbers put more
    pitch difference between notes, negative numbers put less.
    
    To really screw up a "classical trained pianist"- route KBD to all
    the DCO's at -63.  That will just about completely turn off ALL
    influence that key position has on pitch.  Then, route VEL to all
    the DCO's at +63.  That'll strongly modulate the output frequency
    with how hard you hit the key.  Hit it hard--> high pitch.  Hit
    it soft--> low pitch. Gauranteed to drive y'all batty (worked fine
    on Eirikur).
    
    You can also route KBD TWICE at -63.  That will map about a normal
    tempered scale onto the keys- but the low notes will be on the right,
    and the high notes on the left!  Of course, if you play the Crab
    Canon, it doesn't make much difference....:-)   )         
    
    	-Bill

    Re: ESQ-1 and good [pipe] organ patch...?
    
    I've got the ESQ-1...and am _very_ happy with it.  It was bought
    for pretty much the same reasons stated in .0 (well, there were
    some others too....).  I can't recommend it enough!!!
    
    But the question: the pipe organ patch that is a part of the standard
    ESQ-1 patches is really pretty poor...at least it's not what I'd
    like it to be.  Does anyone know where a different/better one might
    be found?  ...or what could be done to modify the existing patch
    to make it sound "fuller" and less "breathy"?
    
    			-tnx,
    				Jeff

    re: .2 (Jeff Larue)
    
    What is the patch name of the pipe organ patch that you are talking
    about?  And when you say "standard ESQ-1 patches" do you mean the
    ones that are in the internal memory of the unit as it comes from
    the factory?
    
    I got a pipe organ patch that came with an expansion cartridge.
    I don't remember the exact name of the patch but it does begin
    with a "P".
    
    This patch sounds pretty good to me, but it sounds much better with
    a "big room" type reverb (H37 for you Roland SRV-2000 owners).
    
    	db

Anybody know whether or not a Roland RD series electronic piano +
Yamaha TX81Z + small sequencer would come within $2000?  That would
be my choice if it fits in the specified price range...

Todd.

RE < Note 1037.4 by HPSTEK::RHODES >

>Anybody know whether or not a Roland RD series electronic piano +
>Yamaha TX81Z + small sequencer would come within $2000?  That would
>be my choice if it fits in the specified price range...

	I think you've got something there, Todd.  An RD200 is somewhere around
$1500-$1700.  TZ's can be had for $350 (Sam Ash).  That leaves a little for
a sequencer.  Anyone know about the little Korg SQ-8?  Price?  Worth it?

	Dan

    I got my RD-300 for $1600 at Daddy's in Manchester about 7 months
    ago, but I got as part of a package deal with a lot of other stuff.
    I think my total bill was above $3k so I had a certain amount of
    leverage in bargaining (they did NOT want me to walk out of that
    store when I told them all the stuff I was ready to pay cash for).

    As I'm sure you're all tired of hearing, I'm very very pleased with
    the RD-300.  I just wish it had some more MIDI controller options
    like the KX-88.  I just didn't like the action and response (to
    velocity) of the  KX-88 keyboard, plus the RD gave me a quasi 
    MKS-20 Digital Piano synth builtin.
    
    Agreed that an RD and a TX would make a great pair.  You might also
    consider the ESQ-M, but that's a bit more and not nearly the value
    that the TZ (or the FB-01 for that matter) is.
    
    	db

    Reminds that one of the things I've considered doing is organizing
    a Commusic Buyers Union.
    
    My usual technique for buying equipment is to buy a bunch of stuff
    all at once.  It forces me not to "jump" at things the first time
    I see them (although there's an HR-16 with my name on it somewhere
    most likely).
    
    I've found that if you walk in and offer cash for a large amount
    of equipment you can get very significant attention and discounts.
    
    If a bunch of Commusic folks banded together for group purchases
    it might be very fruitful.  Salesman get very impressed when you
    say things like:
    
    	"I want 3 FB-01s, an RD-300, two SRV-2000's, a couple of dozen
         MIDI cords, an RX-1, a TR-505, a 626 and a 707.  Oh yeah, and
         a set of .009s for an electric plus a medium tortoise shell
         pick.  How much?"
    
    We could share the task of calling up all the places and accumulating
    all the "bids".   You ask the store to break down the costs on an
    item-by-item basis to find what everyone's share is.
    
    	db, who doesn't need anything significant right now but may
            in a couple of months.

RE < Note 1037.7 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Dave" >
>                          -< Commusic Buyer's Union >-

	Sounds like a vundabar idea!  Count me in!  Time for a new note?  Maybe
we can get it in place by 'tax-return' time.

	Dan

    The folks on Usenet did this a while back. I think that it worked
    out really well for them. Count me in, Dave!
    
    	- Rick
    

    I'd rather just wait until Dan buys whatever I want and then pick
    it up a week later for .nn%.......:^)
    
    Do you think we could get Alesis to sell us a couple dozen HR-16s
    direct???
    
    Edd (also_waiting_with_bait_on_his_breath)

    
    Re: .3 (Dave B.)
    
    It is the "pipe organ" patch that is one of the internal ROM patches
    that came with the ESQ-1.  [I can't remember the exact name of the
    patch...something like "piporgan"]
    
    			-thanks,
    				Jeff

RE: COMMUSIC buyer's mumble

   Good idea, Dave - count me in. 

8-)

    The buyers union sounds like a great idea to me.  I could be the
    LA Connection, and we get great deals out here.  Also, if the gear
    is purchased in one state then shipped to another, you avoid the
    sales tax!!!!

    I think it's called "PIPORG.  Actually, I like ICYORG better,
    especially when run through a delay line or reverb.
    
    DRWORG is a pretty decent church organ, too.
    
    
    ----------------------
    
    re: Commusic Union:  Count me in.  I have a well-trained salesman
    near Albany, NY who knows how to use a telephone.  My parents live there
    so it's no hassle to get there and transport stuff.  The salesman
    also knows how to FedEx stuff.           
    

    Um...a diversion from the general euphoria regarding bulk purchase.
                                  
    RD-300s are available over here now for 1100 pounds -- that's cheap 
    (previous best price around 1450).
    I don't know if that signals a general price reduction, but I can
    hardly resist. My access card twitches at the very thought.
      
    I don't own an rd-300, but I've been thrown out of every music store
    in the South of England for playing 'em. GET ONE!
    
    Richard.

                        
    
    Have you had a go of the new Yamaha Pf85, I would be interested
    in a comparison report on a quality of sound basis.
    
                                        Paul.
    					

    Nope. But on a name basis, I reckon the two are chalk and cheese.
    
    Richard.

    
    Considering the lack of good deals in Vermont, count me in too.
    
    /paul

    re: .15 (Rich Machin)
    
>   RD-300's are available over here now for around 1100 pounds - that's
>   cheap.  I don't know if that signals a price reduction,...
    
    I just heard last night that Roland is replacing the RD-300 with
    the RD-300S.   Sorry, but I have no idea what distinguishes the
    "S" from the previous model.  I may call around a few stores today.
    
    re: .14 (Bob Yerazunis)
 
>   DRWORG is a pretty decent church organ, too.
    
    Bob, could I talk you into posting or mailing that patch?
    
    	db

    I've created note 1041, "Commusic Buyer's Union".

    Let's move further discussion of the Buyer's Union to note 1041.
    
    	db

	The RD 200's and 300's are going through a revision.  I believe it all
has to do with making the action more weighted or something (so says E.U.W.).

	The 200 is being replaced by the 250.  It seems that there may have been
more than just the action to change or that the action had considerable change
such that the revision required a new product number.

	I'm sure we'll see some discounting on the originals.

	I played the PF85 last week and loved the sound and action.  This one's
a winner - but don't know the price of it.  That'll be the clincher.

	Dan

    	Jagger:
    
    As someone who just went through this process, I'm not sure how
    much this will help, but you seem to have some of the same interests
    that I did.
    
    1- I too was very interested in a realistic "touch", not being thrilled
       with the toy-like feel of most synths.  This was one of my major
       reasons for buying a Kawai synth, but your other needs may not
       make the K-5 a good choice.  As I remember, the Casio CZ-1 had
       a nice feel, too.
    2- Most of the entry level units (eg Ensonic ESQ-1, Roland D-50, Casio
       CZ-1, Korg DS8) come with 50-100 sounds (or "patches" as they
       are called).  It is worth taking the time to try to listen to
       these at length, so that you can judge for yourself if they will
       be useful to you.  RESIST the temptation to buy a unit based
       hearing three or four "killer" patches.  After the novelty wears
       off........
    3- I plan to add a separate sample reading module, when I can afford
       it.  I think you may want to do the same, given your budget. 
       Be sure to check out the READERS, not the just SAMPLERS, unless you
       intend to actually sample sounds yourself.    
    5- If you want a sequencer built into your synth, the ESQ-1 may
       indeed be your best bet.  It sounds pretty good, and has lots
       of patches available.  I was not really crazy about the keyboard
       but you may not mind that one drawback if everything else is OK.
       Another way to go is with a separate unit like the Korg SQD-1.
       It's just like using an electronic tape recorder.  I'm using
       a package on my PC to do the same thing. 
    6- I use a two-level stand from Invisible that cost $115.  
    8- None of the synth pipe organ patches are going to work for anyone
       who has ever played a real pipe organ.  This is where I see a
       sample module as being the only way to go.  I heard samples on
       the Mirage which really blew my diapason!  The E-max II (?) was
       also credible.                                 
    
    Good Luck,
    Bill
    

    A lot of the pipe organ sound has to do with being inside the
    instrument as you play it.  You need good (contrast with loud)
    amplification to really hit those low notes without breaking up
    the cone or clipping an amplifier.
    
    re .-a few ...
    	
    Glad to post any of my patches, Don.
    
                                     

    re .15
    
    1100 pounds !!!  Outrageous !!!
    
    Using todays exchange rate of �1 = $1.80 and the price  of  about
    $1600 you are paying about �212 or $381 too much.  Seems  like an
    awful lot for shipping and tax, especially considering the higher
    cost of living and a reduced disposable income.
    
    Zach

Re .-1:
    
    Well, you should realise that for most of this gear, dollar=pound.
    We all pay too much, but over here we pay a helluvalot too much.
    
    Richard.

    Thank you all for your input. I am confused BUT I have narrowed
    my choices down to the following:
    
    CASIO CZ-1  because I can get it cheap and it looks fun to modify
                and it has good touch sensitivity.
    
    CASIO FZ-1 because I can get it cheap, and it has wonderfull sound
               disks, samples, Can I use the FZ-1 with MIDI out? Can
               I use a sampler in to the FZ-1? If so this looks promising
               I liked being able to have 8 internal sound banks loaded
               at one time. Seems easy to work with, and the aftertouch
               worked well on the sampled harpsichord. I noticed that
               the sampled sounds were very clear, and polyphonic cords
               8 notes did not sound clipped or vauge.
    
    Ensonique ESQ-1 because it sounds great, has good control and I
                    do not need anything else, except amplifier headphones.
                    
    
    I did not like the DX-7 sounds, they were very original, but seemed
    to have a subcarrier (low frequency component) maybee my ears were
    buzzing in Daddy's Junkie music store after listening to all the
    synths!
    
    Anymore comments for this naive buyer would be appreciated. As to
    the keyboard + synthesissor, I did not like the keyboards, they
    felt way to STIFF for me.
    
    TOM

    I have been searching for a good keyboard/synth set up pretty intensely
    for about a week now - went to lots of music stores, the MIDI Expo
    in New York, and have been asking a lot of questions.
    
    I'm lookin for a good piano-like keyboard to use as a controller.
    I can't seem to find an actual keybpoard controller that feels
    like a piano, but I did try out a Yamaha PF85 piano (mentioned
    earlier) that sounded real food and felt to me to be exactly the
    touch of a real piano. It has 2 or 3 piano sounds, and I think
    a clavinet, and some other related sounds. No organ as far as I
    remember. I saw it in a Worcester or West Boylston Music store
    (next to Abbott Animal Hospital where I had brought my cat for a
    shot) - can't remember the name of the store. I think it was going
    for about $1795.00.
    
    I heard a dynamite organ (fat church organ sound) in a Roland D-50.
    I could have sworn I was in a cathedral listening to a real organ.
    
    To get the other sound that you want to get - you moight want to
    look at a relatively inexpensive unit such as the Yamaha FB-01
    or the Roland MT-32 which go for about 300.00 or 500.0 or so
    respectively.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Bill
    

    first of all, let me state that the only thing I know about the piano
    is how to use it to tune my guitar ;-)
    
    I'm looking for an 88 key electric piano + synth (controller? not sure
    about that term) combination setup.  My young children (4-6 year olds) 
    will be taking lessons so my wife thinks a regulation piano would be 
    mandatory.  I'm looking for a synth to add some sounds (samples?) and 
    texture to my guitar playing.  Budget will be around $6K.
    
    What would be good to check out in this area?
    
    AdvTHANKSance,
    Mike

    ...I won't make any recommendations, but for $6K the world is your
    oyster!
    
    Edd

    Hi Mike!
    
    My advice (not worth much, but I'm not charging you for it ;-) would be
    a Yamaha KX88 controller (88-weighted keys, a tad "mushy" but a decent 
    feel IMHO FWIW etc.) - which would set you back about $1300, and a
    Roland U-220 SGU with great piano sounds and a bunch of other stuff to
    boot.  That'll set you back about $700.
    
    Then, mail the remaining $4K to me at:
    
    
    

    Hi Steve!
    
    According to what I've been receiving so far, it looks like the KX88 +
    U-220 is the most common recommendation.
    
    Mike

    And what's been the most common recommendation on the remaining $4K?
    
    (grins)
    
    Enjoy!
    
    Steve

With your budget, you could afford a Roland A80 (about $2000), which is
superior, in my opinion, to the KX88.

I have a KX88 because the price was right and the features were acceptable.
But if money were no object, I would choose the A80.

The U220 is a good all-around choice for sounds (I just got one myself -
current prices are $750 - $800).  The Kurzweil 1000PX pianos are better, but
the U220, with its variety, expandability, and some truely awesome sounds, is
a good choice for starters.

The Proteus/1 would be another contender to look into.

Jim

    I'll disagree with those suggesting controllers.  What about mounting
    all this stuff, plus you need amplification, etc. For the *piano*
    purpose, an integrated digital piano (with speakers built in) is the
    answer.  For the synth stuff, you buy a module which you MIDI up to the
    piano.
    
    This is the voice of experience talking.  My daughter used to practice
    on my MIDI rig, and it was a royal PIA to my non-technoid wife.  For
    Christmas I bought a separate keyboard for my daughter to play (not a
    digital piano but then I didn't have a $6K budget.....8^)  8^)) and it
    has worked out much better.
    
    						Brian

    I would have to look at the Atari ST and a little PA system with the 
    remainder.
    
    Re: -1
    
    Aren't the KX88 and A80 digital pianos?  The sound module could be a
    rackmount version of the U220, no?
    
    Mike

    The KX88 and A80 are *controllers*, keyboards that output MIDI but don't
    generate sounds.
    
    The U220 is a rackmount, the keyboard version is a U20.  
    
    						Brian

    So what should I check out for an integrated digital piano?
    
    Mike

    Do a dir/key=piano for notes to check.
    
    Some brands to look at:
    
    Roland, Yamaha, Ensoniq, Kurzweil, Korg
    
    Some general music dealers carry these, but the easiest place to find them
    (although not the cheapest) is a piano/organ dealer.
    
    						Brian