Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Hi

Does anybody have one (TX16W)?  I might be buying one soon because it is at a
great deal -- ~ $1400.00 and has quite a good sound.  Bad thing is, you got
to buy the sound library and all at one whack.  The new 76 disk library (to 
complement  the original 25 disk) costs about $300.00.  So for about
$1700 you have a stereo sampler with about 80 disks of sounds.  A comparable
Roland S-330 (price comparable) with no disks (but you can copy them
[Roland Sound LIbrary] yourself for the cost of a disk).

The yamaha has 1.5 meg memory, the S-330 less.
The Roland has the video interface and mouse, Yamaha doesn't.
The Yamaha will sample at 16.7Khz mono total 43 seconds
                          33.3Khz mono total 21 seconds
                          33.3Khz stereo total 10 seconds
                          50.0Khz mono total 14 seconds
The Roland S-330          30.OKhz mono total 14.4 seconds or thereabouts
                          15 Khz mono double of above


I'm mainly interested in getting a sampler as a multitimbral SGU with good
'natural' sounds.

My goal is to also eventually have an S-550 for a total set up of

1 D-50 synth keyboard
1 S-550 sampler rack
1 TX16W sampler rack
FX

or

1 D-50 synth keyboard
1 S-550 sampler rack
1 S-330 sampler rack
FX

Any comments?

    I've heard the Yammie is a bear to program and can take close to
    *5* minutes to load a disk...
    
    My gut reaction (never played with one) is that Yam's gotta a
    real collie on their hands....
    
    Edd

I played with one this afternoon for an hour.  It does take a while to load
but not 5 minutes.  Even the double disk stuff was only about 3 minutes.
The point is taken though.

According to the September 1988 'Aftertouch' Yamaha magazine, a new version
of the OPerating System is out that addresses many of the user's concerns
about programming.  I don't know if this is true.  they claim to have automated
many of the previously tedious functions at sampling.

The sounds were quite good though.  I think that it is a good deal for a sampler
at the price.  If it cost like an S-330 or S-550 I would say "no way".

Now I am mainly interested in a sampler to play back samples and do some minor
sampling myself.

chad

    Sounds like a real good deal for the price. I checked one out when
    I looked for a sampler  but bought a 330 instead for three main
    reasons:
    -I hate waiting for things to load!
    -Programming was difficult although sampling was easy. I have a
    TX802 so I'm familiar with the operating philosophy but I still
    found it akward to use.
    -At the time there werent many sounds for it, that seems no longer
    the case.
    
    I thought it sounded BEAUTIFUL and there was a lot of room for memory
    expansion (expensive), but it seemed more suited to holding single
    sounds like piano etc for a stage musician who may have a couple
    set up.
    
    I'm real chuffed with the 330 from a user aspect and it sounds good
    too, although it doesnt have the memory expansion capabilities or
    SCSI port it fits in with my studio well . The monitor interface
    is very good even though I'm only using a monochrome comp. monitor.
    
    If it had been the same price then as you seem to be able to get
    it for I may have ended up with one, but I know I would have cursed
    it on many occassions for the issues I mentioned above.(although
    I curse sometimes now for not having enough memory)
    
    Hope this info helps.
    Ken
    

Those are not good prices! I just called Caruso's Music in Conn. They have
the Roland S330 for $1599 and the TX16W for $1179. They will let you
borrow the sound library for the TX16W and copy it for a charge of $1
per disk ($76). You then ship the sound library back to them. They put
a deposit charge on your card for the value of the sound disk library
while you are borrowing it, then credit it back to you. It really pays
to shop around these days. That's what DECMS is all about.

The Roland library will also be available. It consists of 120 disks of
incredible sounds from the S50 & S550 library which can be converted
to the S330 format. Your costs would be...


TX16W $1179			S330 $1595
lib   $  76 76 disks you copy	lib   free 120 disks you copy
S&H   $  10 (approx)    	S&H  $  10 (approx)
------------            	----------
      $1265		             $1605

The cost of blank disks varies. I will be ordering a large quantity from
MEI at 85� per disk next month.

dave

Personally, I would highly recommend the Roland unit. The sound library is
very comprehensive. Many of the new S550 samples are in stereo including
a two disk drum kit. There are lots of ethnic sounds, f/x, strings, keyboards,
guitars, woodwinds, etc.

Though Dave caught me on the phone this afternoon and already knows this,
I thought I'd mention it here.  I already got the 1395 one last night.  They
are letting me borrow (for free) the sound library to take home for a week or
so to copy myself.  All 100 of them (76 in new library and 25-30 from
original library).  I have the 76 disk set now with me in my desk.

Thoughh it would have been nice to save about $150, it would have been,
mailorder, which is not bad, having done it myself for moocho computer stuff
but on something like this, there is comfort in knowing that 5 minutes from
my office is the place I got it.  Of course, saving $100-200 is not such
a bad deal!!  The Yamaha product specialist I talked with said the new OS
rev is done and will be distributed this week or next, plus a 108 page guide
to sampling (which should have been included in the unit) is finished and free.
I am calling Yamaha today.

Will post more as I know more.

CHad

    re-.5
    Is there anyone in the Toronto area who has the 120 Roland disk
    set. I didnt even know it was available. We must be slow in getting
    stuff here eh!
    Ken
    f

    Anyone know how the TX16W does voice allocation?  Dynamic (like ESQ) or
    present (like TX81z)?  Here's hoping for dynamic ... 

    How many separate outs?  Howzit sound compared to the S330/S550? If I
    got one, would someone front me the disks to dupe since I'm tight on
    cash?  Are future sample disks free like Roland? 

-b

    
    
    Hey Brad
    
    If you got one I could copy the disks for you and transfer them
    via the Net, if they really are the same format as ST's.
    
    				Paul.

Sorry Brad

Not dynamic allocation.  Like the 802 and probably like the 81z.
It has mix I and II and outs 1-8.  If you set voices 1-8 to the
separate outs, all voices 1-8 go to separate outs, 1-8 respectively.
The ZIT on the TX16W.

The new OS, which I have ordered, makes things a lot nicer, but doesn't
fix the out zit that I know of.  

You send me the disks (blank), and I'll copy them for you.  I currently
have the 76 library set at home and am copying it (27 to go -- one evenings
work), and will then get the other 25 or so form the store to copy.

They (Y*) originally came out with about 25 disks in the sound library
and recently introduced these new 76 disks.  The Y* rep told me at a
clinic that Y* doesn't care if you copy them.  If Y* were to come out with
some done by a third party, then there would be a consideration here.  So, if
future sound disks come out, presumably they would be free to copy or how
your dealer works it.  I will have the first 100 or so anyway.

Another zit -- the manual.  All 26 pages for the complete included
documentation.  But Y* announced a free 108 page "guide to basic sampling"
which I have on order from them so it ain't so bad.  I like the sound of
mine so far.  Because of time, I haven't tried to do much sampling myself.

did play my trumpet into it, hacked up the sample, and had a nice reverb organ,
though I don't know if I'd really like it if I heard it again (I didn't save it).


CHad

One of Digidesigns programs supposedly works with the TX16W (on ST and MAC)
and there was a small word about MIDI sample dump standard handshaking
being provided in the TX16W.  Not knowing much about the
format for the MIDI sample dump standard, I don't know what that means.

Chad

    Thanks for the offers, PK & Chad.  In short, if Y* doesn't pop the zit
    (aka, fix dynamic voice allocation), I ain't buying. 

-b

> < Note 1006.10 by NORGE::CHAD "Ich glaube Ich t�te Ich h�tte" >
>        -< NOt dynamic -- 8 separate outs for voices 1-8, 9-16 mix only. >-
> Not dynamic allocation.  Like the 802 and probably like the 81z.
> It has mix I and II and outs 1-8.  If you set voices 1-8 to the
> separate outs, all voices 1-8 go to separate outs, 1-8 respectively.
> The ZIT on the TX16W.

Are you guys talking about the same thing?  It sounds like Brad asked if
     one must assign a fixed number of voices to a particular "patch" or
     "instrument", while Chad is answering the question about whether or
     not the outputs are assignable.


/Mitch (interested in splurging on a sampler)

    
    
    I have purchased neither of the samplers I think being considered,
    but did read a review of the S330-S550 where the reviewer said that
    the S550 he had, would always run in non-dynamic mode because of
    the danger of losing half of an extended crash symbol to a less
    important high piano note. He felt that absolute allocation i.e.
    1 to this and 3 to that would always be his preferred method.
    
    Tha akai I have is dynamic. 
    
    Any thoughts ?
    
    		    
    			Paul.

    I think on the FZ the sample must run its course before another
    note can be allocated. My sequencing technique involves sticking
    notes in until they're robbed, and I've never noticed unexpected
    forshortening. (Otherwise, I'd expect parts of my sequences to be
    reduced to an almost meaningless stutter).
                                                       
    You sure a note on clips samples already being read on the Akai?
    (Assuming the note on isn't assigned to the same channel or whatever,
    as in the open/closed hihat tactic).
    
    Richard.

I was trying to answer the question and then continue on a related vein.
Sorry for the mixup.  Unfortunately I haven't been able to really sit down
with it since I got it except to copy disks and play some of the sample library.

It does not have dynamic voice allocation as Brad was asking.  You set it up
a TX802 FM-SGU except that each "voice" is only one note, not two like the
802 and the performance voice allocation "screen" is two screens worth, A and B.

In addition, the individual outs are limited in their assignability.  That is
the zit in my mind.

Sorry for any confusion.

Chad

PS:  I think the Y* is a good value for the money -- 1.5 meg etc for 1200-1400
dollars, while the S-550 with 1.5 meg goes for 2300+ (2300-2700).

The Y* is expandable by the user (a little access panel and drop in memory
boards to 6 meg) and has a port for HD support in a later version of OS (if
that ever happens :-)  It sounds good as well and has 100 disks about for a 
sound library.  Also, OS is on disk, which theoretically means new
features through expanded OS (and actaully has supposedly happened with the
release of V2.1 -- mine at home is V1.0)

Now, if it cost any more, it wouldn't be a good value in my mind.  Maybe even
the Zit(s) will be taken care of if possible in a later OS.

    re: .14
    
    > He felt that absolute allocation i.e. 1 to this and 3 to that would 
    > always be his preferred method.
    
    I disagree 110%.  So much so that I can't even imagine how anyone
    would come to that conclusion.
    
    The S-550 supports BOTH kinds of dynamic voice allocation modes
    (Did you know there were *two* kinds?): one were it steals the
    "oldest" voice, and one where it steals the most recent voice.
    
    If he usess the most recent one, he won't have that problem with
    the crash, although he may have other problems.
    
    I *always* use dynamic voice allocation, and it's a feature I wouldn't
    ever give up.  It works 99% of the time without requiring any
    effort on my part.  Non-dynamic voice allocation would be a royal
    pain: figuring out the # required by each channel would be a
    pain.
    
    Also, non-dynamic voice allocation it introduces limits (like if 
    the A parts threshold is 9 simultaneous voices, and the B parts 
    threshold is 9 simultaneous voices, but the theoretical combined
    threshold of 18 voices doesn't occur, you're pretty much sunk.
    
    In fact, I think fixed allocation is almost useless and a mistake.
    
    The right way to do it?   Well if you ask me, the right way to
    do it is to have both forms of dynamic allocation PLUS an ability
    to protect "burglar-proof" a channel, which means that you can
    tell the SGU that it should never steal a voice from this channel.
    
    It's a feature I've never seen in any unit, but to me, that's
    the right way to do things.  In my experience, these features 
    would  provide all the voice allocation handles I've ever needed.
    
    	db

>  ...to have both forms of dynamic allocation PLUS an ability
>     to protect "burglar-proof" a channel, which means that you can
>     tell the SGU that it should never steal a voice from this channel.
>     It's a feature I've never seen in any unit, but to me, that's

The D-110 (not  a  sampler)  has  something  like  this.  It has dynamic
     allocation (think it has both forms, but not sure) PLUS the ability
     to reserve  a  minimum  number  of  'partials' for any of the eight
     instruments.

/Mitch
 

    < Note 1006.17 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Yo!" >
-< An appeal for burglar-proof voice allocation >-

>    In fact, I think fixed allocation is almost useless and a mistake.
    
>    The right way to do it?   Well if you ask me, the right way to
>    do it is to have both forms of dynamic allocation PLUS an ability
>    to protect "burglar-proof" a channel, which means that you can
>    tell the SGU that it should never steal a voice from this channel.

    The Emax has 'oldest' voice recycling PLUS the ability to permanently
    allocate a sound to one or more outputs (for special effects). 
    (The rest of the voices can be told to NOT use that specific output.)
    Unfortunately this does NOT remove that sound from the stereo outputs.
    Fortunately, if I were using voice->output assignment I'd probably
    be using all 8 individual outputs, not the 'stereo' pair, so 'not
    removing' the specifically allocated sound has no impact.
    
    karl    

    re: .18 and .19
    
    In my opinion, this is different in a significant way from what 
    I'm proposing with burglar-proof channels.
    
    Burglar-proof channels should neither be stolen from nor, "steal"
    usable voices from other channels.  In other words, it should not
    "pre-allocate" voices.
    
    I would describe this as "mixed mode" (fixed and dynamic) allocation
    on a per-channel basis.   It's better than all-dynamic, or all
    fixed.
    
    With BPC's you don't have to waste any unused voices by "reserving"
    them.  BPC's seem pretty ideal: they're easy to implement, don't
    waste voices by reserving them, and require little work on the users
    part. 
    
    	db
    
     p.s. as long as we're designing, it occurs to me that you might
    	  want to attach the BPC status to the patch, rather than the
    	  MIDI channel.  It's more a function of the type of sound.

    On the big Oberheims (Xpander, Matrix-12...) you can chunk your
    channel response zones in any of the following:
                        
    3 zones
                        
    Each zone responds to one note range on one midi channel (or OMNI).
    
    1...(6 or 12) voices in each zone.
    
    Voice alloc: 
    	steal-oldest, 
    	steal-newest, 
    	refire (if that same note number is already sounding, restart 
    		those envelopes, otherwise steal oldest), 
    	strict rotation, 
    	unison-last (all voices in this zone retrigger on each new note, 
    		and play the same note.  Can you say "fat"?),
    	unison-highnote, 
    	unison-lownote
                    
    
    Does creating a burglar-proof zone in this way meet your specs,
    Dave?
    
    	-Bill

    I don't understand your explanation of the Oberheim.
    
    Let me pose it as a question to you, can I produce a configuration
    where a voice is "available" (not in use) but can't be used because
    of the voice allocation?
    
    If the answer to that is "yes", than it doesn't meet my specs cause
    the answer to the question for my proposal in "no".
    
    	db

    The answer is "yes", so the result is "no".  
    
    Oh well...
    
    	-Bill
    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note 2246.0                      harddisc->16w?                       No replies
SUVAI1::REINANDER                                    10 lines  22-JAN-1990 08:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

         Hi!
    
    How about connecting a harddisc to Yamaha tx16w sampler? I've heard
    something about cd-rom for tx16 too. Are any of this devices available?
    If so, what kind of interfaces etc. do I need?
    
    
    regards  
    Jan
     

the thing has some sort of rs422 or whatever the high speed rs4xx is.
The OS supposedly supports it too.

Chad

    Could somebody try to make a Backup/image of a TX16 Disk to 
    
    TDCIS3""::ALLIN1_USER1:[RENOUVEL.TX16W] I would like to try something.
    
    THANKS BY ADVANCE...
    
    ALL THE BEST....
    PAT.
    

    From USENET.  This may be of interest to TX16W owners with IBM PCs.
    
    
Path: ryn.mro4.dec.com!hollie.rdg.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl
    !shelby!msi.umn.edu!cs.umn.edu!sialis!quad!dts
From: [email protected] (David Sandberg)
Newsgroups: rec.music.synth
Subject: Utility to format TX16W disks on PC
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 22 Jan 91 04:12:48 GMT
Reply-To: [email protected] (David Sandberg)
Organization: Quadric Systems, Burnsville MN
Lines: 23
 
A few months back someone mentioned that I had a program
called TXFORMAT.EXE, which allows an MS-DOS machine to
format 720K diskettes suitable for use with a Yamaha TX16W
sampler.  At the time I said that I wasn't certain that I
could legally distribute the utility, but I've been asking
some questions in this regard, and there doesn't appear to
be any problem with my passing it along to others who can
use it.
 
So, anyone who would find this utility helpful should feel
free to write me email to that effect, and I'll pop off a
uuencoded binary in the general direction of your mailer.
If there are a lot of requests for it, I may elect to post
it to an appropriate place on the net instead... but we'll
wait and see what transpires.
 
Sorry, but I only have a compiled version of this program,
not source code.
 
-- 
 \\         David Sandberg         \     ,=,       ,=,           \\
 //      [email protected]       /     | |uadric `=,ystems     //
 \\  uunet!umn-cs!sialis!quad!dts  \     `=\       `='           \\

Hi ...

I bought my TX16W about 18 months ago.  My wife (we are both Eastman 
School of Music grads) was teaching music at a private boarding 
school (The Fountain Valley School).  It was musical time and we had 
to put together a professional sounding pit orchestra/jazz band for 
"The Boyfriend" with zero budget in two weeks.

One of the students had a Yamaha keyboard with a builtin sequencer (but 
it's sounds were awful).  Elizabeth (my wife) spent the time entering 
the score into the sequencer, and I spent the time learning to program 
the TX16W.

I started out with the V1 OpSys.  And I must agree, it was a disaster.  
Once I got my hands on V2, things moved along really fast.  We had a 
live drummer, and a student playing on my Yamaha PF85 Digital piano.

Between the awesome sound of the PF85, and the really nice sax/trumpet 
combo, the full string orchestra, and some flute stuff I put on the 
TX85, it was a great success.  I couldn't tell (except with the 
strings) that this wasn't a real orchestra.  

And with the sequencer, we sounded tight!  Of course, there was the 
mistake on the second night, when I forgot to turn the power amplifier 
on at least 10 seconds before the lights came up.  The sequencer 
started, but no sound came out.  The cast just stood there frozen (like 
they were supposed to).  I pressed the power button on the amplifier, 
and we struggled to get the sequencer stopped before the sound popped on.

We were succesful, but our hearts were in our throats.

I got my TX16W used complete with 3Mb for $1250.  It's a great toy.  

Since then, I bought something from an outfit in Texas called Key 
Electronics (MS-114), which turns the RS422 port on my VS3100 into a 
MIDI port.  I've started developing software to make my VAXstation into 
a sequencer.  The last thing I did with it was I had it playing the 
clarinet line from the Mozart Concerto k.622.  With SoftPC installed, 
I can even read and write the 3.5" floppies that you put in the TX16W.  

I've noticed that software/hardware for the TX16W has disappeared from 
the market.  My local MIDI shop was real hazy on it, even though they 
carried it.

What I'd like to do, before these things drop off the market forever, 
is get my hands on the 76-disk sound library, and hopefully, expand the 
box to its full 6Mb (I used about 95% of the memory for the show).

Has anyone seen these disk, or the memory at a MIDI shop recently?  
Does anyone still have the disks?  Would you be willing to copy them 
for me if I paid you?  Is anyone interested in parting with any TX16W 
memory?  

John Lawson, in Colorado Springs


PS: What caused me to place this note is that I had a dream last night 
that my wife came home really excited and told me that we were going to 
be doing "Cats" in two months, and that I'd have to put together this 
moster score on the VAX, plus program the orchestra into the TX16W as 
soon as possible.  That was a nightmare, I think ...

	
	On eo f those memory expansion companies in the South (Maartists I
	think) has an expansion board for it.

	If you can find someone with the disks you can copy them.  The Yamaha 
	rep in the store when I bought mine (since sold) said that Y* didn't
	care...

	Chad