Conference napalm::commusic_v1

	I can't answer all your questions, but I think I know enough about the
Juno to answer the 2nd one.
    
>    	2.) Does the Juno 106 send out MIDI volume change when you diddle
>    	    its volume control?  

	No, I believe the volume slider is only an audio control.  I've used
mine with an FB01, which does receive volume control data and found it to do
nothing when adjusting volume on the Juno.

	Dan

    Hmmm. 
    
    mks-20 does not re-map sysex.
    
    dont know about the volume message. I never sent one. Why not use
    the mks VOLUME slider, since you will be diddling a slider anyway...

    Be warned that the mks-20 without velocity will sound "like a piano,
    but somethings not right". Like a robot with precise control playing
    a piano. Something like that. Bottom line is that it will make you
    crave a velocity kbd. 
    
    AND WHAT A DIFFERENCE THEN! Dont forget: its not just volume that
    is affected. Velocity also produces a different mks20 timbre
    (waveform).
    
    
    

    Thanks for the input to date.
    
    Couple of notes:
    
    1.) Why not diddle the MKS-20 volume knob directly?  When using the
    system in live performance, I will have the Juno on an Invisible
    keyboard stand and a MIDI cable going back to a rack containing the
    MKS-20 which will be some distance away from me near the back of
    the stage.  This puts the MKS-20 volume knob out of reach.  Since
    I can't control the volume by playing with a lighter touch (Juno
    doesn't send velocity), I need to change the volume directly.
    
    2.) Velocity, volume, et al: After talking to a few people who have
    MKS-20s, I decided that the MKS-20 would be better than buying something
    like an RD300 which has a touch sensitive keyboard but none of the
    goodies like built-in paramateric EQ, cartridge for saving parameter
    data, etc.  Plus, since my direction is all rack mount, why not
    start that way to begin with?  Also, in the studio, I can borrow
    a touch sensitive keyboard an play it like it was meant to be played.
    A good deal of the subtlty of a piano is lost playing in a rock
    band anyway, ya know, competing with guitarist and his 100W Boogie
    :-).
    
    Looks like my only alternative is to run a cable from the MKS-20
    to a volume pedal at my feet, and another cable back to the mixer
    in the rack.  Yuck!!!!!  I HATE LOTS OF CABLES ON STAGE!!!!
    
    If anyone has a better idea, please, let's hear it.
    
    	Derek_who_will_be_craving_a_KX88

    As you know, MIDI velocity messages are different from MIDI volume 
    messages.
    
    *IF* your Juno has a *MIDI* volume pedal, the MKS-20 will obey it.
    It sounds kind weird, like an organ with piano sounds..
    
    As Won said, the velocity messages really make the MKS-20 come alive,
    but if no velocity is sent, default velocity (64 I bleeve) is assumed,
    putting the timbre right in the middle.. a bit soft/bassy, but you
    can get around that by choosing a brighter piano patch.
    
    Good decision, Derek. I've had my MKS-20 for 1.5 years and still love
    it.
    
    karl m�

    Hint: though the MKS-20 has stereo outs, they're not true stereo
    unless you're using the (very good!) stereo chorus. And mono chorus
    sounds mighty good..
    
    Hint: a stereo reverb (MIDIverb, etc.) is almost required, esp.
    when recording.
    
    Hint: if your Juno has a sustain pedal that xmits MIDI sustain,
    use it.. the MKS-20 wants it. Try setting the Juno in 'remote' mode... 
    that is, the keyboard and controls drive its synth circuits via MIDI.. 
    unfortunately the Juno was an early machine and as you're finding has 
    a rather crude MIDI implementation... but, oh, those analog sounds !
    
    karl
    
    

    re: .3
    
>    If anyone has a better idea, please, let's hear it.
    
    OK.   ;-)
        
>    2.) Velocity, volume, et al: After talking to a few people who have
>    MKS-20s, I decided that the MKS-20 would be better than buying something
>    like an RD300 which has a touch sensitive keyboard but none of the
>    goodies like built-in paramateric EQ, cartridge for saving parameter
>    data, etc.  
    
    I went through this same decision process and wound up with the
    RD-300.
    
    To fill in some context:
    
    	MKS-20 - Rack mounted digital piano unit.  Extremely versatile.
    	         Extremely programmable.
    
    	RD-300 - 88 key weighted velocity sensitive MIDI controller.
    	         has builtin quasi-MKS-20.   The quasi MKS-20 *is*
    		 essentially an MKS-20 (sound is the same) but isn't
    		 programmable.  It has about 8 preset sounds (3 acoustic
    		 piano, harpsichord, Vibraphone, Fender Rhodes, Wurlizter
    		 elec. piano and Clav.  The 8 presets are all excellent.
    
    The MKS-20 and the RD-300 cost about the same amount of money.
    
    THe advantage of the RD-300 is that you get a very decent MIDI keyboard
    (the RD-300 doesn't have too many MIDI controller type features
    like the KX-88 - it's basically a keyboard) PLUS a small set of
    the best MKS-20 sounds at the same price as an MKS-20.
    
    The advantage of the MKS-20 is that it is very programmable.  You
    can diddle the piano sound to sound more like what you think of
    as a piano (or any of the other instruments mentioned above).
    
    I honestly feel that playing an MKS-20 through a non-velocity sensitive
    keyboard is going to be very dissapointing.  One of the best features
    of the RD-300 (and MKS-20) is that it responds to velocity in much
    the same way a piano would.  It's not just volume, the tonal, attack,
    decay, etc. characteristics also change with velocity.  I think
    playing it through a non velocity sensitive keyboard isn't going
    to sound a whole lot better than say a Piano patch on the DX7 or
    some other good synth that isn't specifically designed for piano.

    But of course, you needn't take my word for it.  If you want to
    come up to Hudson, NH and try your Juno through my RD-300 (and have
    a look at the RD-300) I'd be to demo it for you.  You could also
    compare it with and w/o reverb (as has been said, the reverb is
    fairly important but perhaps your amp already has a reverb).
    
    So given what I've said about velocity sensitive, and what you've
    said about budget, I really think that the RD-300 is very much worth
    considering.
    
>    Plus, since my direction is all rack mount, why not
>    start that way to begin with?  
    
    I felt that the most important thing to get was a good keyboard.
    All the rack mount stuff is not useful until you have a keyboard
    that can effective use it.  
    
    The truth is that I too would have preferred a KX-88 for its system
    controller features but I just didn't care for the "feel" of the
    KX-88.  It was much stiffer than I'm used to.
    
>    Also, in the studio, I can borrow a touch sensitive keyboard an play
>    it like it was meant to be played.
    
    My feeling is that if I didn't practice on a vel. sens. keyboard
    (especially the one I intend to record it with) I would be less
    successful at exploiting the feature.  You sorta have to get use
    to how things respond to velocity which is a function of both the
    keyboard (the vel. data it sends) and the synth (how it reacts to
    the vel. data).
    
>    A good deal of the subtlty of a piano is lost playing in a rock
>    band anyway, ya know, competing with guitarist and his 100W Boogie.
    
    I've solved this problem.  I *AM* (also) the guitar player in my
    band (although my Boogie is only 60W).  There are lots of tunes
    we do where we concentrate specifically on dynamics and the subtleties
    can definitely be heard.  We have also done tunes with sections
    with not much else going than me on the MKS-20 and there is just
    NO QUESTION that you can hear the subtleties resulting from velocity.
    
    To me, I'm most in love with my RD-300 when the band gives me some
    space to let me sorta take over with the RD's Fender Rhodes sound.
    I sorta feel like I'm Greg Mathieson or Terry Trotter (a bunch of
    great Rhodes players with really good Rhodes sounds).  It's my favorite
    patch on the RD.  You can play some really wild-assed chords and
    yet hear EVERY note clearly (which is why I think Rhodes eventually
    became so popular).
    
    Anyway, I've expressed my differing opinion.
    
    	db

    BTW, there is also an RD-1000 which I believe is like an RD-300
    but with a less "quasi" MKS-20 and more MIDI controller features.
    
    Of course, it cost more bucks.
    
    There may be an RD-600.  I seem to recall seeing one but my memory
    isn't very clear on that.
    
    	db

RE < Note 896.7 by DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "Dave" >
    
>    There may be an RD-600.  I seem to recall seeing one but my memory
>    isn't very clear on that.
    
	There's an RD200, which is only 76 keys.  Otherwise seems to be the
same as the 300 (at least accrding to the brochure I'm looking at).

	Dan

    re the last few: I, too, went thru the same purchase decision process.
    
    If the KX88 is too stiff, the KX76 (DX7 action) won't be.
    
    If the Rd300 has fewer controller features than the RD1000, which
    were pretty thin, it's probably nonexistent for the RD300.. IF you
    don't want to control any other MIDI synths besides the piano, get
    an RD300.. if you do want to expand, get something else.\
    
    karl

    I personally think that the RD300 is not a bad idea.  My ideal
    controller set up would have an RD300 and some sort of 5-octave synth
    keyboard controller, with after-touch (poly and mono, preferably) and
    attack and release velocity sensing and wheels and sliders and custom
    portamento switches, and so forth. 
    
    That way you can scream up and down and do all kinds of expressive
    gymnastics on your lead keyboard, and play chords and do proper
    weighted-action technique and Rhapsody in Blue on the 88 key keyboard
    at the same time.  You have two hands, you need two controllers.
    Splits are nice, but not as nice as two boards. The 88 key 'board need
    not have all that performance control because nobody can control two
    pitchbend wheels at once (ok, I haven't seen anybody who can). 
    
    Also, if you really need the controls, Yamaha sells a MIDI box which
    is intended to go with their CP60M and CP80M pianos which has a
    bender, a mod wheel, and inputs for all kinds of pedals, plus the
    ability to map any of its controllers to any MIDI controller number.
    It cost around $250 last I saw. You could add one of these.
    
    The RD200 (I had one) is ok, but the action is not the same as that
    of the 300.  It is lighter.
    
    The RD1000 is a MKS-20 with an 88 key keyboard. That is, it does have
    the EQ and chorus parameters, and the cartridge slot.  It is way out of
    hand--one of those things that is targeted towards the LA studios. It
    weighs a million pounds. Also, it doesn't have wheels, or pressure
    sensing, as far as I know.
    
    The biggest problem with the RD series, in my opinion, is the
    keyboard's velocity curve has too much of an exponential character
    to it.  You can play quite soft, or you can bang the hammers, but
    I can't seem to find the intermediate ``loud, but legato'' sound
    using the built-in keyboard.  I had no problem doing this with my
    DX7 as a controller, though, since it pushes out the middle velocity
    values as readily as the top and bottom ones.
    
    No guitarist, no matter how loud, could mask the lack of expression
    that you would get out of an MKS-20 with a non-velocity keyboard.
    
    Personally, I am waiting on the MKS20/RD300/KX88 issue because I
    don't think that any of the solutions are currently satisfactory.
    (have my 5-octave synth, though, so I'm halfway there)
    
    Steph

    A few nits to pick with you, Steph. For the record I've an MKS-20
    and a KX88. And an Fb01 and an EMAX rack unit. For those for whom
    the KX88 action is too piano-like and heavy, the KX76 has equal 
    controller ability in a DX7-like action.
    
>My ideal controller set up would have an RD300 and some sort of 
>5-octave synth keyboard controller... 
>You have two hands, you need two controllers.

    Recall, please, that the KX88 xmits on TWO CHANNELS and that
    not all controller data must go to both channels.. 
    the KX88 also allows splits, making the 'you need two keyboards'
    argument go away.
    
>The 88 keyboard need not have all that performance control because 
>nobody can control two pitchbend wheels at once 

    Uh, right. In normal setup, one wheel controls pitchbend, one controls
    LFO. ALL (good) CONTROLLERS HAVE TWO WHEELS. How can you hit the KX88 
    for that ? Not all patches require manipulating both params, anyhow,
    and the KX88s footpedal can be routed to control either one. Or
    get two footpedals and control both, with your hands free to play
    the (splittable) keyboard. 
    
    Note that NONE of the Roland pianos will respond to bend/LFO info, 
    anyway, so we're talking about controlling additional synths. It 
    DOES get down to the anticipated MIDI system growth. If no more 
    modules than the piano, go with the RD300.
        
>I had no problem doing this with my DX7 as a controller, though, 
>since it pushes out the middle velocity values as readily as the 
>top and bottom ones.
 ^^^   
    I thought it was known that the DX7 keyboard, though springy and
    light, will not transmit velocity values over 118. In fact there
    was an Electronic Musician (I think) discussing the MKS-20's 
    lack of brightness using a DX7 as a controller for this reason.
    
    karl moeller sws tucson az
    

    Karl,
    
    The last note, and this one (as you can tell) have an implicit ``In
    my opinion'' (not to the best of my recollection?).  I love controller
    issues, because they are so subjective.  You just have to try it
    before you believe it.
    
    Sorry, I'm not dishing on the KX88.  I think it is a great controller,
    and I am still considering getting one.  However, I want (and so does
    the author of the root note, as far as I can tell) both an SA piano,
    and an 88 key 'board (or at least we're trying to convince him that he
    wants another, velocity sensitive board, and he may as well get an 88
    key, while he's at it :-)  Big of us, isn't it?).  The RD300 is
    cheaper than a KX88+MKS20, and I am trying to rationalize away the
    features that you would lose in not getting the more expensive set up.
    A DX7 and a KX88 and an MKS-20 would be even better than a DX7 and
    an RD300, but the question is, is the latter set up enough?  My
    thesis is probably, except that for me, I don't like the velocity
    curve on the RD300.
    
    	I still maintain that even with 88 keys, splits are a poor
    alternative to two keyboards.  Several reasons:  When playing a
    chord plus lead format, I often use up to five octave in each hand.
    You would need a 120 key keyboard to deal with that.  Even if you
    had a 120 key keyboard, it would be awfully uncomforable stretching
    that width.  I vastly  prefer a ``two-manual'' approach.  The second
    point is that I like both weighted and unweighted actions.  They
    each have their uses.  You can't (yet) alter the action of anything
    but a fender rhodes (which we decided was great single slot keyboard
    stand, but not much else).
    
    One important thing that you do lose with the RD300 (which BTW, can
    also split) the ability set everything up with the push of a button.
    But if you have that in your other keyboard, (which I do), you don't
    need this function. 
    
    	I guess you didn't read my windy review of the E!.  I even put
    the most important thing at the top because I knew that you were
    going to fall asleep in the middle:  My E!quipped DX7 puts out
    velocities in a (user specified) range from 0 to 127.  With six
    different curves.  (BTW, the biggest value I ever saw from the old
    one was a 109.  That stuff about 118 was a pipe dream, I think.
    You must have to hit it with relativistic energy, or something.)
    
    Steph
    

    From the author of the base note:
    
    My reason for not wanting to get an RD200/RD300 is because of the
    features it lacks: no programmable parametric EQ, no way to store
    chorus parameters, no way to store new piano sounds, etc.  It is also a
    controller issue (i.e., the KX88 is a better controller than the RD300
    is) but primarily, I want the flexibility the MKS-20 offers over the
    RD200/RD300.  
    
    I am not happy about not having a velocity sensitive keyboard, but
    the budget must prevail.
    
    My ideal would be a KX88 controlling the MKS-20 with some other
    kind of controller for doing other things.  Coming from an organ
    background, I like having two keyboards, but having a full 88 key
    set-up PLUS another keyboard is ideal.
    
    		Derek 

    re: .10
    
    I very much agree with your two keyboard approach (one weighted,
    one not).  This is what I have (the RD-300 and an Ensoniq ESQ-1).
    These are the only two keyboard I ever plan to have.  Everything
    else is gonna be rack mounted stuff.
    
    Regarding your probelm with the velocity curve on the RD, do you
    find this to be true using the builtin MKS-20 as well as with other
    synthesizers.  If it's just with other synths, it could be that
    the other synths have an exponential response to velocity data rather
    than what the RD sends out.  If not, as I've mentioned, the way
    the RD responds to velocity is one of the biggest reasons I bought
    it.  Of course, this may just be personal preferences.
    
    re: RD-300 MIDI controller features
    
    I thought it might be worthy to give a brief summary of the RD-300's
    MIDI controller features.  There aren't many, but I've found the
    set of features it has to be well-chosen and sufficient for my needs:
    
    	o Split keyboard (each side can be aside a different MIDI out
          channel)
    
    	o Program change - you can send program changes from the RD-300
          but it's a bit clumsy for performance purpose.  You hold down
    	  a special key and then press a note on the keyboard (there's
    	  a printed indication of what program the note sends on the
          panel).
    
    	o It has IN, OUT, and THRU ports
    
    	o Transpose
    
    	o Separate external volume sliders for the upper and lower parts
          of the split (these work via the MIDI volume feature)
    
    	o Separate internal volume control (allows you to blend in the
          MKS-20).
    
    There are no modulation or pitch bend wheels.  When I need them,
    I use the ESQ-1.  This has not been a problem because it would seem
    I use them for things that I prefer to play on an unweighted
    keyboard anyway.
    
    Some MIDI controllers allow you to program in configurations that
    send out the right program change commands to give you a particular
    configuration of your MIDI system (i.e. you can setup splits, patches,
    volume, effects, etc. all at the touch of one button).
    
    I find that I don't miss this.  I can generally get things the way
    I need them at the touch of one button anyway, so it doesn't much
    matter if the button happens not to be on the RD, although it would
    be better if it did.
    
    As it turns out, the sequencer in the ESQ-1 can do this (i.e. you
    can set up sequences to send out those configuration commands) so
    if I ended up needing this, I already have it.  It's part of the
    reason why I choose the RD-300 simultaneously with the ESQ-1 (I
    bought them together).  They compliment each other quite well.
    
	db

    re: .11
    
>    For those for whom
>    the KX88 action is too piano-like and heavy, the KX76 has equal 
>    controller ability in a DX7-like action.

    That's going from one extreme to another.
    
    The KX-88 has a very stiff weighted key action.  The RD-300 has
    very light weighted key action.
    
    We seem to be emphasizing the importance of electronic features over 
    playability features.  To each his own, but when *I* went out looking
    to buy a MIDI controller, the single most important thing to me
    was finding one that felt comfortable, then I looked at what bells
    and whistles it had.
    
    The most important thing I felt it had to do was allow me to play
    the notes the way I want to play them.  To me, everything else is
    secondary.
    
    	db

    agree.
    
     kx76 is an organ action.
    
     RD is a piano action.

    simple. Apples and oranges.
    
    Now a Rd300 AND an mks20 slightly detuned....pant slobber droool.....
    

>    Now a Rd300 AND an mks20 slightly detuned....pant slobber droool.....
    
    Much cheaper to buy a harmonizer for this.  Actually, you can probably
    get something pretty close with even just a good DDL (I used to
    use my DDL for this to get a "honky tonk" piano sound from the RD).
    
    I'm beginning to find more and more applications for a harmonizer.
    I can almost smell the SPX-90 Mark B in my basement studio.
    
    	db
    

    
    honkey tonk?   gag.
    
    no. think "two strings on each note...."
    
    well, thats almost 3 per....
    
    and gawd, davy, lets keep em tuned close...
    

    My Super Jupiter makes a great honkeytonk piano if you let it warm
    up for an hour without hitting the tune button...
    
    len.
    

    Well, once I got around to reading the Ensoniq ESQ-1 manual, I just
    tweezed one of their piano patches (detuned one of the oscillators)
    to get a Honky Tonk sound.  I also made the velocity curve a bit
    steeper and use it to control the pitch so that when I really pound 
    on a note it sounds even more out of tune, just like the neglected
    out-of-tune uprights I remember playing in various basements and
    garages.  You can also control the "honkytonkedness" by turning
    the mod wheel.
    
    Sounds pretty good actually.  I've used that sound for a couple
    of things I'm doing besides "Benny".
    
    	db

the spx-90 powers up the way you left it.
Watch for my recital on cambridge local origination cable channel tv.
and another one taped in cambridge in a few months on a hot acoustic piano.
Tom

    Okay.. short of a Kurzweil, here's my shot at the 'best' digital
    piano, all sounds driven simultaneously from the keyboard or sequencer:
    
    Roland MKS-20 on Piano 1 bank 4.(chorus off)mixed high, good midrange.
    Yamaha Fb01 'GRPIANO'.            mixed low, just for filler.
    E-Mu EMax Grand Piano sample.     mixed medium, adds hammer slap.
    
    The combination of these three modules, carefully tuned (NOT DEtuned)
    sounds great. For the money, it should.
    
    karl

    I think you should think real hard about going to a pair of keyboards
    rather than keyboard+rackmount.
    	
    I have two keyboards, and even though only one of them has full-size
    velocity-sensing keys, I find it very handy to have them both.
    Among other things, you can play both the background and the lead
    where they sound right, rather than where the split ends up being
    forced to fall.  It works easier on the elbows if you shove the
    righthand keyboard toward the right about a foot, but it's viable
    even if you don't.
    	
    -Bill who_regularly_infuriates_J_S_Bach's_ghost_with_horrible_timing