| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 837.1 | 1b | SAUTER::SAUTER | John Sauter | Wed Jun 10 1987 15:56 | 8 |
| You've got it exactly right. The solution, on my board, is that
you flip N switches, one per channel. The switch chooses between
two input jacks, one connected to synthesizers, reverb machine,
microphone, etc., and the other connected to the outputs of the
multi-track machine.
Different boards will probably provide different solutions, of course.
John Sauter
|
| 837.2 | money and flexibility vs. time | SALSA::MOELLER | Surf Arizona | Wed Jun 10 1987 17:02 | 19 |
| On the old TEAC 3340, which had its own mic/line inputs, and allowed
you to SWITCH between monitoring tape (in 'simul-sync' mode) and
the input signal, merely having all its outputs hooked to a mixer
similar to yours worked just fine.
But with a situation where you NEED the mixer in FRONT of the tape
deck, then you need, as I do, a 'multi-bus' mixer.. that is, each
mixer channel can be switched (for monitoring) between the input,
be it mic or line, and the tape input.. while adding a new track,
that channel would be monitoring input, and sending the signal along
to that track on the tape deck, while the rest of the mixer channels
are monitoring tape.
I thought I was being so slick by getting the Yamaha KM08 mixer,
8 channels, 3 effects sends, for $225, rather than spending over
$1K for a multibus mixer. So now I get to do LOTS of repatching!
karl
|
| 837.3 | Depends on Your Application, Too | AQUA::ROST | This space available | Wed Jun 10 1987 17:27 | 18 |
|
Another thing to consider is how many inputs you need while recording.
All of my recording is one-man-band overdubbing, one part at a time.
I never use more than two inputs while recording, so since my mixer
has six channels, I use 1 and 2 for inputs and 3 to 6 for the tape
outs.
If your mixer has switching between mike and line (and separate
input jacks) you can keep the tape outs connected to the line ins
on four channels and still use those with mikes (but not lines)
without repatching.
The multibus function Karl mentioned in the previous reply is what
most cassette ministudio mixers have built in.
The only hassle I have with repatching is when I am in a rush, repatch
quickly, screw it up and then spend ten minutes figuring out why
nothing is coming out of my speakers.
|
| 837.4 | just hook up one amp to each of the 8 outputs... | PHUBAR::WELLS | Left of Center | Wed Jun 10 1987 17:49 | 18 |
| re .2
Or for those same $1K you could just get 4 of the KM08's...;-)
In school we had a setup similar to, but larger than, -.1's. We had a
16-track mixer with channels 9-16 dedicated to being 8-track tape deck
out. Mixer channels 1-8 came in from a patch bay, where (ta da!) all
the instrument/tape deck outputs were also located. The mixer outputs
were there, as well as the inputs for other tape decks, so to change
from recording to mixdown was simply a matter of moving the stereo
mixer outs from the amp in to the stereo tape in, and connecting the
stereo tape out to the amp in.
Wish all that stuff had belonged to me...
Richard
|
| 837.5 | how about a patch bay? | SHR001::DEHAHN | | Thu Jun 11 1987 09:45 | 16 |
|
More versatile boards have subgroups that can be dedicated to
tape sends/loopback, like a 8x4x2. The 4 subgroups are for your
four tracks. You don't have to repatch anything.
However, you don't have this luxury. The cheapest way out to make
your life easier is to buy an inexpensive patch bay, with RCA outputs
and 1/4" patches. A Fostex unit is about $80 new. You can make your
own patch cords. At least that way, you're swapping 4 - 1/4" plugs
and not RCA's, which aren't designed for that kind of use. You'll
be sure and find a million ways to use that thing around your studio,
it will become the center of operations for the whole place, making
some kind of order out of all those cords.
CdH
|
| 837.6 | I can't help it, I'm cheap! | AKOV68::EATOND | Just another living stone. | Thu Jun 11 1987 10:01 | 20 |
| RE < Note 837.5 by SHR001::DEHAHN >
So, how is a patch bay set up? Is it something that can be built
at home? I'm just guessing, but is this the way it works? Are there switches
involved?
O = input/output jacks (1/4")
o = input/output jacks (RCA)
| = connections
o o o o o o o o
| | | | | | | |
o o o o o o o o
| | | | | | | |
O O O O O O O O
| | | | | | | |
O O O O O O O O
Dan
|
| 837.7 | What a Patch Bay is to Me. | PHUBAR::WELLS | Left of Center | Thu Jun 11 1987 12:02 | 22 |
| A patch bay (in my experience) is just a set of RCA -> �" Phono plug
converters put together in a box. The front panel is just a row (or
multiple rows) of phono jacks and the back panel has the corresponding
RCA jacks. Our bay was a rack-mount unit. All the machines in the
studio, both their inputs and outputs, were attached at the RCA side of
the bay, coming in the back of the rack. Those cords were *never*
touched. All the phono jacks on the front panel were labeled (P61out,
32inL, 32inR, echoin, echoout, etc.), and any connections between any
machines were simply made by routing an output to an input with a short
phono plug male-male cord. In addition, there were a few slots in the
patch bay that were basically a Y-connection for multiplexing
(splitting) a signal. Basically, the RCA connection of one slot was
run through a Y-cable to the RCA connection of two of the other slots.
An utterly low-tech, non-active, non-digital, simple way to organize
your cords.
Anyone know where to get these second-hand (or new)? I haven't
any idea where to find such stuff. A radio-electronics store?
Richard
|
| 837.8 | | SHR001::DEHAHN | | Thu Jun 11 1987 12:26 | 23 |
|
Re: Mr Eaton
Yes, that's all they are. You can make them yourself. How much time
do you have on your hands? For $80, I'd gladly let someone else
do the work. Drilling 64 holes, mounting 64 jacks, and cutting,
stripping, and soldering 128 wires is just too much hassle for me.
The jacks alone would cost you at least $50, plus some wire, and
you haven't even bought a chassis yet. Hey, go for it....but for
me, there are just some things that are better off bought.
Tascam makes the cheapest one I've seen, at around $80. Fostex makes
an equivalent for a little more bux. Both are 32 point, ie 16 patch
pairs. Furman makes a 40 point for just over $100. All are 1 rack space.
My mobile recording friend set up his patch bays with used telephone
patch panels, he got a pair of them in the Want Ad for $100. However,
his bay is hard wired in the back, so it's really only half of what
you can buy new. It took him a week's worth of nights to wire it
up to his system.
CdH
|
| 837.9 | patch bay 101 | JUNIOR::DREHER | Platitudes and Folklore... | Thu Jun 11 1987 13:28 | 172 |
|
This is the patching I use for my 8-trk studio. The board is an
Aries 24x8x16. This means that it is an 8 buss board with 24 input
channels, and has the ability to monitor 16 tape returns. Right now
it is hooked up to a Tascam 38 8-trk. The eight output busses are
connected to the 8 inputs on the Tascam 38. The eight outputs on the
Tascam 38 are connected to tape returns 1 - 8. Both sends and returns
to the 8-trk are not routed through the patch bay. In 24-trk pro
installations the usually are. Most of the inputs are filled up with
synth outputs (6), drum machine outputs (6), guitar (2), and mics.
In addition, there are 4 aux sends (busses) on each input channel
(24) or monitor return (16). These are sent to the patch bay. Also,
tape returns 9 - 16 are in the patch bay. Connected to these 4 aux
outputs, via the batch bay, are 4 effects devices, 2 delay lines and
2 reverbs. The outputs from the effects devices are returned, via the
patch bay, to aux returns (L & R) and tape returns 9 - 12.
The connection in the patch bay for each aux send and effects unit
is 'normalled'. This means there is an automatic connection between
the two if no jumper cable is used. Most patch bays work this way.
Example:
Side view of patch bay
front back
From Aux 3 output on mixer
O__________________=O=== <-------------------
|
| <- normalled
| connection To SPX-90 input in rack
O__________________=O=== -------------------->
Now, in order to hear this effect, I have to bring the output
of the SPX-90 back to the mixer.
Example:
Side view of patch bay
front back
From SPX-90 output in rack
O__________________=O=== <-------------------
|
| <- normalled
| connection To Aux return on mixer
O__________________=O=== -------------------->
If I wanted to break this automatic connection, route the signal
elsewhere, or insert another device, I'd do that with short patch cables
on the front of the patch bay. No reaching around the back of the board
or the effects rack is necessary.
In addition to the effects patch bays, I also have all 'insert'
points in two addition patch bays (32 x 2 points). An insert point
where you can add an effect inline on one channel only. Most recording
boards have this feature include 4 track mixer/recorder combinations
like the Tascam 244. On my board, the insert point is after the EQ
section but before the aux send section.
Input Module: (simplified)
Insert Insert
Mic send return stereo L-R
===> O_____ | | tracks 1-8
\ switch | |
Line >------[ EQ ]-->| |--[4 aux]--[fader]--[pan]--[buss select]
===> O_____/ sends L-R switches
Say I wanted to insert a compressor on lead vocal overdub. The patch
would look like this. In this patch the insert send and return are
normalled to each other. The compressor input and output are not
normalled, otherwise we'd be looping it to itself.
Example:
Side view of patch bay
front back
From ch 1 insert send on mixer
|<----===O=__________________=O=== <-------------------
| : normalled
| : <- connection
short | : broken To ch 1 insert return on mixer
patch | |-->===O=__________________=O=== -------------------->
cables | |
| | Compressor input in rack
|-[-->===O=__________________=O=== -------------------->
| modified for
| | <- unnormalled
| connection Compressor output in rack
|<--===O=__________________=O=== <--------------------
Example of complicated effects Patch Bay
----------------------------------------
* RCA jack # Normalled
Patch Bay 1 Patch Bay 2
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| Aux Left # SPX-90 Left | | 01a # Aux 1 |
| Return # Output | | Input # Output |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| Aux Right # SPX-90 Right | | ADM-256 # Aux 2 |
| Return # Output | | Input # Output |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| EQ-210 Left | EQ-210 Left | | SPX-90 # Aux 3 |
| Output | Input | | Input # Output |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| EQ-210 Right | EQ-210 Right | | SDE-3000 # Aux 4 |
| Output | Input | | Input # Output |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| DBX 160 | DBX 160 | | Tape 9 # 01a Left |
| Output | Input | | Return # Output |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| Open | Open | | Tape 10 # 01a Right |
| | | | Return # Output |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| DBX 166 Left | DBX 166 Left | | Tape 11 # SDE-3000 |
| Output | Input | | Return # Output |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| DBX 166 Right | DBX 166 Right | | Tape 12 # ADM-256 |
| Output | Input | | Return # Output |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| Affex Left | Affex Left | | Tape 13 # Open |
| Output | Input | | Return # |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| Affex Right | Affex Right | | Tape 14 # Open |
| Output | Input | | Return # |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| Main Insert # Main Insert | | Tape 15 # Open |
| * Left Return # * Left Send | | Return # |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| Main Insert # Main Insert | | Tape 16 # Open |
| * Right Return # * Right Send | | Return # |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| Cassette Left # Main Left | | St. Tape # Cassette Left |
| * Input # * Output | | * Left Input # * Output |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| Cassette Right # Main Right | | St. Tape # Cassette Right |
| * Input # * Output | | * Right Input # * Output |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| Stereo Left # Monitor Left | | Open | Open |
| * Input # * Output | | * | * |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
| Stereo Right # Monitor Right | | Open | Open |
| * Input # * Output | | * | * |
------------------------------------ ------------------------------------
I have some material on patch bays if anybody is interested. I have
Tascam PB-32's and Furman 40PB's. Both are 1 rack space high. The Tascam
has 32 points and the Furman has 40 points. There are different versions
of these bays, some normalled, others not, some RCA, some Phone jack, some
mixed. Both are less than $80. Cabling might cost more than the bay,
depending on what you have already.
Plan out what points you want to have in the bay first and what will
be normalled, etc., before buying.
Hope this isn't too confusing.
Dave
|
| 837.10 | Whew! | AKOV68::EATOND | I never expected a Spanish Inquisition! | Thu Jun 11 1987 15:53 | 8 |
| RE < Note 837.9 by JUNIOR::DREHER "Platitudes and Folklore..." >
This is going to take some studying! It's a whole different ball
game compared to the type of setup I'm working with.
I would be interested on info about patch bays.
Dan
|
| 837.11 | | SALSA::MOELLER | Surf Arizona | Thu Jun 11 1987 17:29 | 6 |
| Nice work, Dave. Lots'o'reading there.
I ordered a Furman 1/4"-RCA 40-point patchbay last December. Haven't
seen it yet.
karl
|
| 837.12 | more on bays | JUNIOR::DREHER | Platitudes and Folklore... | Fri Jun 12 1987 11:43 | 13 |
| Re: .11
Karl, I ordered 2 Furman 1/4"-RCA 40-point bays from East Coast
sound 2 months ago for $79. It took three days for delivery.
If you buy from Furman, they have a deal where you can buy 10
18 1/4" patch cords for $12 including shipping. Thats $1.20 a
cord, which I thought was a good deal. I bought 20.
Also, both the Tascam 32-point and the Furman 40-point come
with instructions for modification. You can break the normalled
connections, short connections so the normal can't be broken, etc.
Dave
|
| 837.13 | | SALSA::MOELLER | Surf Arizona | Fri Jun 12 1987 14:32 | 5 |
| Sounds good, Dave. Contact address/phone for East Coast Sound?
I take it they give good mailorder (?)
karl
|
| 837.14 | | SHR001::DEHAHN | | Mon Jun 15 1987 10:16 | 9 |
|
(203) 748-2799.
Speak to either Morgan or Joe.
Tell Morgan I said hi.
Chris
|
| 837.15 | | JUNIOR::DREHER | Platitudes and Folklore... | Mon Jun 15 1987 10:29 | 4 |
| re: .12
Oops, thats $79 *each* for the Furmans...
|