Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Well, I see two obvious problems, involving use of Outs as Thrus.
    Specifically, the Mirage should not receive anything expect MIDI
    messages *originated* by the MKS30 (which only originates sys ex
    patch change data, I would guess), and the DX21 should only receive
    data *originated* by the RX21.  Perhaps these devices have a mix
    option that allows the "Out" to function as a combined (i.e., merged)
    Out and Thru?
    
    Also, if the QX21 has its "thru" mode engaged (so it forwards input
    to its output) you have a classic MIDI feedback loop (remember last
    Sunday Edd?).
    
    Remember the MIDI definition of Out - only sends things originated
    within the device; and Thru - only forwards stuff received at In
    (*not* including stuff originated within the device).
    
    len.
    

    And, no, I don't know how you get away with it, other than to note
    that the folks at Yamaha are developing a solid reputation for
    idiosyncratic interpretations of the MIDI specs.
    
    len.
    

    Ooops! That should be MKS30-"T" to Mirage-I...
    
    But you did catch the one I was questioning, RX21-O to DX21-I. The
    RX *doesn't* send note data down the line but *does* pass data coming
    in, classic definition of 'Thru'....
    
    Luckily, the DX functions as per spec which avoids the MIDI feedback
    problem when I've got MIDI 'echo' engaged on the QX. The data appears
    at the DX21-I port and is passed to 'thru', not 'out' (which, if
    it were the case, *would* cause feedback). I do lose 4 voices on
    the DX when the QX is 'echoing' though...
    
    Edd

    I seem to remember something about my pf-80's MIDI-out being an
    implicit thru unless one explicitly tells it not to be.  I'll try
    to remember to check it out.  It seems very familiar to me (perhaps
    mentioned in other notes?) that Yamaha likes to make combined out/thru
    jacks.
    
    Richard
    

	As long as we're drawing pictures, I have a long-standing question 
concerning my setup.  I'll continue Edd's established symbolism.

    I:== MIDI In
    O:== MIDI Out
    T:== MIDI Thru
                                           
    
    JUNO106 -I <-------------MSQ100-O        
    JUNO106 -O ------------> MSQ100-I     
    JUNO106 -T --|    
                 |           
                 |
                 |--> FB01-I 
                      FB01-T -------> CZ101
                                               

	Now it appears to me this setup would work for recording into the 
sequencer (MSQ100), but it doesn't work for playing the FB01 or the CZ.  If
I switch the MSQ100 out to thru, I can play the other MIDI devices from the
Juno, but can't have the sequencer operational.

	Len, you mentioned some kind of 'mix' function.  Does the MSQ have that?
Will that solve the problem?  I seem to recall seeing something like that on
the back switches.

	Thanks.

	Dan

    Re> .5	Dan the only ways I know how to solve that problem is
    		as follows:
    
    	1) Try the "soft Thru" or "echo" or what-ever it's called on
    	   your sequencer, if you have it

	2) Get a midi merge box.  I know Yamaha makes one, others probably
	   do, too.  Then set up as follows:
                      
                      +-----------------------+
                      |                       | 
    	JUNO - I      +-> I                   +--- O   SEQUENCER
    	JUNO - O -------> I  MERGE  O --+
    	JUNO - T                        |     +--> I
                                        |     | 
                                      FB01    |
                                        |     |
                                      CZ101   |
                                        |     |
                                        +-----+

    Now, during recording new data from the Juno will be merged with
    the existing data coming out of the sequencer.
    
    This should work, if I understand how this merger works correctly.
    Any comments?  Corrections?
    
    Ron

                                                           
    I think many sequencers do have some provision for mixing sequence
    data with input data to the MIDI out port (Ed refers to an 'echo' mode 
    on his QX). Don't know if the MSQ will do this or not. If not, then 
    you may need a MIDI merge (ugh!). 
    
    I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to do (play the CZ while the
    sequencer runs the FB01?) but it seems that the crux of the problem is
    you're trying to control one device (the CZ - FB01 combo) from two
    sources (MSQ and Juno) and that's a merge. In a one_synth_with_
    sequencer setup you don't notice it because there's an implicit merge
    of the keyboard with the incoming sequencer data. And in Ed's case this
    fact is what's causing him to lose voices, since the DX keyboard
    plays 4 voices and then the QX sends another 4 (actually the same
    ones) back to him.

RE < Note 833.6 by BEOWLF::BARTH >

	Only question I'd ask about this setup is; Wouldn't the merge be sending
a MIDI THRU rather than an OUT?  Also, the CZ101 has no THRU, only IN and OUT.
How would change things?


	Dan

RE < Note 833.7 by NIMBUS::DAVIS >

>    I think many sequencers do have some provision for mixing sequence
>    data with input data to the MIDI out port (Ed refers to an 'echo' mode 

	That's why I'm hoping someone with knowledge of the MSQ pitches in
(Where are you, Len?).

>    I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to do (play the CZ while the
>    sequencer runs the FB01?) but it seems that the crux of the problem is
>    you're trying to control one device (the CZ - FB01 combo) from two
>    sources (MSQ and Juno) and that's a merge. In a one_synth_with_

	I want to be able to record into the MSQ with the Juno, and play back 
into every MIDI sound module without having to rewire the MIDI cables.  Your
second senetence above is correct.

	Dan

    re .5 - sorry to be so long in answering, I been busy.
    
    Yes, the MSQ-100 has a mix option, via one of those little dip switches
    in the back.  Check your manual.
    
    len.
    

	Well, since you all have been hanging on the edge of your seats to 
find out how I handled this... 8^)

	I just thought I'd drop in an update of the new way I'm attempting to
handle MIDI data flow.  Implicit in the following is my change of equipment
with the resultant new MIDI commands available.  I'll explain after the picture.



    I:== MIDI In
    O:== MIDI Out
    T:== MIDI Thru
    T:== SYNC OUT (or IN, for that matter)
                                           
    				
    JX-8P -I <-------------MSQ100-O (with 'mix' function on)
    JX-8P -O ------------> MSQ100-I     
    JX-8P -T --|           MSQ100-S --------> TR707
               |
               |--> MKS-100-I 
                    MKS-100-T -------> CZ101
		                  
                                               
	Now here's an interesting way of dealing with equipment.  There are
three equipment-based idiosyncrasies that cause me to have to configure my
equipment this way.

	1)  There's an interesting feature on the JX that allows it to be 
connected to the MIDI OUT of the MSQ using 'mix' function described earlier 
(which merges sequence data with MIDI IN data) and STILL have 6-voice polyphony.
It is a 'local disconnect' feature.  It disconnects the keyboard within the
JX from the sound-producing module, in essence giving me two separate pieces of
equipment; a controller and a sound module.  

	What I wanted to do in the past was have the sequencer play things like
bass, drums, etc., while I used the JUNO to play the piano voices on the non-
keyboard module (then an FB01, now an MKS-100).  But because my controlling the 
module also controlled the Juno voices, I could never have sequence control over
the Juno and play the FB01 along with it.  Frustrating.  It would eat up voices
on the Juno.

	But now, with this feature on the JX (which has taken me about a month 
to realize how valuable the feature really is) I can alleviate the need for a 
MIDI THRU box.  I use the JX keyboard as a controller to both program the 
sequencer, and play the piano module, all the while not touching the JX
voicing (letting the sequencer do so, if desired).  Not frustrating.  BUT...

	The following two points do tell me that somewhere out there
is a MIDI THRU box with my name on it...

	2)  The CZ-101 has no MIDI THRU, so it must go at the end of the chain.

	3)  The TR707, also, has no MIDI THRU.  But it does have a ROLAND SYNC
terminal which the MSQ has as well.  So, while I won't be able to program the
TR with touch-sensitive keys 8^(.  It's O.K. for now (probably don't have enough
memory in the MSQ, anyway), but I think it'll become important later as I learn
how to program drums better (i.e. dynamics).

	BTW, I haven't yet tried this setup, so I won't presume it's error-free.
Can anyone see any problems with it, besides the lack of MIDI control over the 
TR?

	Dan
	

    %DCL-W-CONFSYM, conflicting symbol definitions
     \T\
    
    Maybe you meant "S:==Sync in/out"?
    
    My RX 21 has a port labled "MIDI out", but it passes data like a
    "THRU". Mayhaps the Roland does the same?
    
    Edd

RE < Note 833.12 by JAWS::COTE "Practice Safe Sysex" >
    
>    Maybe you meant "S:==Sync in/out"?

	Right.  Sorry.
    
>    My RX 21 has a port labled "MIDI out", but it passes data like a
>    "THRU". Mayhaps the Roland does the same?

	One of the MSQ's MIDI OUT has a switch that tells it to do the job
of BOTH a MIDI OUT and a MIDI THRU.  The other MIDI OUT is switchable between
OUT and THRU.
    
	Dan

    FWIW - I ran into a similar problem with my setup.  I hacked at
    the QX5 internals to convert the MIDI THRU into a second OUT.  I
    documented this atrocity somewhere else in the notes.  It's pretty
    simple and allows me to run the TR-505 from the sequencer, allowing
    the first output to go to the TX81Z, then to the MVII, and terminate at
    the CZ-101.
    
    Steve

	BIG problem here.

	I started wondering about this on my way home and my test last night
confirmed it.

>It is a 'local disconnect' feature.  It disconnects the keyboard within the
>JX from the sound-producing module, in essence giving me two separate pieces of
>equipment; a controller and a sound module.  

	This would be cool except the disconnect is not total.  One VERY 
important feature is left out:  The ability to place the keyboard and the
module on *different* MIDI channels.  Argghhh!  Back to the drawing board...

	Does anyone know just *what* the local on/off command on the JX is
useful for?  Wouldn't a simple 'turning down the volume' accomplish the same
thing?

	Dan

    Local disconnect prevents 1 "keystroke" from firing 2 voices.
    
    If you do not disconnect, each voice is "fired" from 2 separate
    sources, the keyboard AND the buss, cutting your effective
    polyphony in half. "Discoonect" only allows the voices to be
    fired by incoming MIDI data.
    
    I get around lack of a "disconnect feature" on the DX in 2 ways.
    Set the transmit and receive parameters to different channels, or
    disconnect the "echo" feature on the QX.
    
    Edd                         

    Yeah, Roland did this on the JX-10 (two JX-8Ps in the same package)
    too.  The real irony is the display that shows the current channel
    assignments shows the send and receive channels separately, even
    though they're always the same.  Just plain dumb.  There have been
    numerous occasions when I wanted to use the JX's keyboard to control
    another synth while the JX was playing under the sequencer's control.
    
    This is a serious limitation (almost as bad as the lack of keyboard
    transpose that changes the note numbers sent) on an otherwise very
    capable master keyboard (6 octaves, velocity and pressure sensing,
    the ability to split and overlap, and the ability to send a slew
    of additional midi commands on two additional channels (besides
    the split channels - i.e., *4* channels available, two connected
    to the keyboard and 2 available for other stuff).
    
    It's probably a trivial change to the onboard software that somebody
    just overlooked...
    
    len.