Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    One of our more prolific contributors has his JX-10 stuffed into
    a Ultimate Support Systems stand. (JX-10 be big!)
    
    I think a 3 tier USS runs ~175 - 200 and is well worth it. Their
    solid as a rock!
    
    Edd

    Oh, by the way, I think a Rhodes piano makes a great keyboard stand.
    
    (Better stand than piano)
    
    Edd

    I have a 3 tier USS stand and use it for an OB-Xa, which weighs in
    somewhere around 50-60 lbs.  Have had no trouble with the strength of
    the stand.  HOWEVER ... 

    Make darn sure that you get the extra long swing-out supports for it if
    the D-50 is very deep front to back, like my Xa.  Short ones just don't
    cut it.

    And, with all due respect to Mr. Cote, don't use a Rhodes for a
    stand.  Moving the stand will break your back.

8^)_who_uses_his_Rhodes_to_support_an_ESQ1 (or WUHRTSAE)

	While Ultimate Support Systems is probably the ultimate in support
systems (boo! Hiss!), there are many alternatives.  In the lower end of
stands prices, you can generally find a 3 tier keyboard stand for around
$110 or so.  These are most likely limited in the ways one can set them up
(i.e. they may have pre-set tier heights, etc...).  But they are a good deal.
Invisible Stands are a bit more expensive (around the same price for only 2
tiers), but they can be added onto quite nicely.  They even support standard
rack configurations.

	For the longest time, stands and cases for keyboards were the biggest 
rippoffs in the industry.  You *had* to have 'em, and not too many people were
makin' 'em.  But more companies have gotten in the market, so competition is
bringing the price down - at least in the stands market.

	I have built all my own cases and stands.  But while I have volunteered
to build cases for anyone (see one of the later replies to note 194), I find
building a good stand with three tiers to be a lot of hassle for very little
savings.  Since, as I've said, you can get a brandy new stand for around $100
(fewer levels for even less) it's worth it to go out and buy new.  Or watch
the WantAds...

	Dan

    
    You should probably check out the Invisable stands for comparison.
    A bit different design than what you normally see. The frame is
    constructed out of relatively thin black metal, making them very
    inconspicuous, almost "invisable" onstage. 
    
    advantages  
    	- a bit cheaper than the USS stands, ~ $125 I think.
    	- very portable, they break down and setup easily and fit into a
    	  nylon carrying bag. (about 2x3 but only a couple of inches deep)
    	- very "cool" looking
                     
    disadvantages
    	- limited (although not bad) amount of height and setup adjustments.
    	  only two tiers possible.
    	- the brackets will tend to "bounce" or give just a little bit
    	  with larger keyboards. They actually are very sturdy and can
    	  handle big keyboards, but the bounce may bother some players.
      
    Rob

    Will you be mainly putting keyboards on this stand in your home
    studio or using it to play out live?
    
    When I changed my live set-up from Rhodes-Juno60 to DX7-Juno60,
    obviously I needed a stand, since I would no longer be carting around
    the Rhodes.  I checked out a few, and really studied and put alot
    of thought into chosing one (most dealers said "a stand is a stand
    -- what's the big deal?").  Well, after a short stint using an
    Ultimate, I went with the Invisible two-keyboard stand -- and love
    it.
    
    I think it makes the stage set-up look alot neater, the band can
    set up in a smaller area as it takes very little room (it is positioned
    under the keyboards rather than outside), I think the buttons on
    each synth are much more accessible, it is more sturdy than the
    Ultimates (I found the Ultimate the wiggle when the keyboard wass
    played with any aggressiveness), etc., etc.
    
    If you've seen their ads in Keyboard, it says "Keyboard players
    should be seen AND heard", or something to that effect.  I agree.
    I've seen too many band where the keyboard player sits behind a
    huge gaudy structure supporting five keyboards with a Yamaha CP70
    underneath.  I like to be in the front row with the guitar and lead
    singer -- I like to be seen!
    
    Anyway, it is a more performance-type stand, and I think it's great;
    but go with your needs.
    
    Ron

RE < Note 820.5 by NIMBUS::DAVIS >

>    disadvantages
>    	- limited (although not bad) amount of height and setup adjustments.
>    	  only two tiers possible.

	Just a slight correction, Rob.  I have the catalogs from Invisible
Stands (made right here in Mass).  They *can* support three tiers.  May not
be the best arrangement, but the pictures show 3.

	Dan

    re .-1:
    
    For those of us who don't live close enough to nag you
    into building us a case, would you consider publishing
    a plan for flightcase-building? And maybe some ideas on what's the
    best materials to use?
    
    Richard.

THANKS for the input so far.  To better clarify my needs it would be in
home only, in a small footprint.  By the sounds of the replies thus far
it would appear that the Invisible stand would be the way to go.  I would
only need one tier for now

The only concerns I have are:
  - How wobbly they are? 
  - How does the keyboard get mounted to the stand?
  - If I get a one-tier, can a second be added? ...or is are the
	one-tier and two-tier two different models?

Thanks again,
Dan

    RE .9
    
    - They are not really wobbly at all. There tends to be a little bounce
    if you hit the keyboard hard. More noticable for players who are
    used to pounding on a real piano as opposed to an organ or DX type
    keyboard.
    
    - The keyboard sits on brackets that attach to either side of the
    basic stand. The brackets may be put in a couple of different postions
    and the overall height of the stand can be adjusted.
    
    - The basic model comes with (I think) three sets of brackets, 2 long
    and 1 short, so you can put either 1 or 2 sets on as you like. A
    previous note mentioned that they had seen a *three* tier stand, but
    I don't know how you would attach a third set of brackets to the
    basic stand that I've seen. Maybe there's a different model, or
    perhaps some sort of add-on that holds a third keyboard? Anybody
    else know how that works?  A sideview of the one I have looks something
    like this:
      
                        keys1          
                        -----|keys2  
                             |-----
                             |
                             |
                            /|\
                           / | \
                          /  |  \
                          -------

RE < Note 820.8 by MARVIN::MACHIN >
    
>    For those of us who don't live close enough to nag you
>    into building us a case, would you consider publishing
>    a plan for flightcase-building? And maybe some ideas on what's the
>    best materials to use?
    
	Richard,

	Don't you live in southern New Hampshire?  That's not too far away!

	Anyway, let's move the discussion of cases to a more appropriate note
like 567.  I doubt I'd be able to supply plans with the limited graphics
available in notes.  

	Dan

    
    I have both a double and triple Invisible stand.
    
    There is a conversion kit for going from 2 to 3 tiers.
    
    I dont think they make a single.But you can just NOT put
    in the second rack hardware.  Get 2, you'll use it....
    even if its used as a shelf for manuals and beers &*}
    
    The black is easier to 'fix' if you scratch it...than the chrome
    plate, which can flake off and lodge in your hand. Yes, it hurts.
    Its 'more' invisible too.
    
    This is ONE item you cant go wrong with ordering mail order.
    
    Howard Goldman 716 833 6111 tween 1 and 7...maybe others.
    
    oh, they are very sturdy. Dont wobble much. Designed like a 
    suspension bridge with cross braces....or some such marketting hype...
    
    rr
    
    

< Note 820.10 by NIMBUS::DAVIS >

                        keys1          
                        -----|keys2  
                             |-----
			     |    keys3
                             |---------
			     |
                             |
                            /|\
                           / | \
                          /  |  \
                         /   |   \
                        /    |    \
                        -----------

    As the owner of both an Ultimate Stand (now in use in home studio)
    and an Invisible Stand (in use while gigging and in rehearsal with
    band), I would second the recommendation of the Invisible Stand.
    
    The one advantage I think the USS stand has in studio use is that it is
    possible to put more than 3 tiers on it, especially if the synths will
    be MIDIed and access to the keyboards themselves is not terribly
    important.  Also, the little cross braces for holding more than 1
    device per tier are also helpful, but you can get similar gadgets for
    the Invisible stands. 
    
    As a general rule, I find the Invisible stand to be excellent for
    live performance, as the amount of space your keyboards take on
    stage is greatly reduced over the USS set-up.  Especially important
    for those clubs with small stages.  Can you say "Cramped quarters?"
    I knew you could...
    
    		Derek

Thank you all for the input, I have decided on the Invisible Two-Tier,
I like the Keyboard on one tier with beer and manuals on the other tier
idea! :-)

Thanks again,
Dan

    I guess I should put in my two-cents worth about my stand, so people
    don't think the world is is Invisible, Ultimate and custom.
    
    I have a Rok-Steady, 3 tier, and I think it is awesome.  I can't
    really remember what an Invisible looks like, but I think this is
    basically similar, only the supports are beefier.  Heavy-gage square
    steel tubing all around.  Also, all three tiers are all hung from the
    rear like this:
                       
                        \\///
                       / * * \
           +----       \ --- /
    	   |            +-+-+
    	   +------       /|
    	   |         `__/ |                 (Note: Person's head
    	   +--+--+--      +                      not to scale)
              |  |        |
    	      |  |        |
         -----+--+--   ---+

    The legs are a scissor arrangement, so the overall height of the thing
    can be adjusted from a bottom tier height of 31" up to around 45".
    This is low enough for sitting, but only y if you have a tall stool,
    and tall enough for a 7 footer to play standing (I think.  I'm not that
    tall).  Each tier is angled succesively more downward. 
    
    You can get it with 1, 2 or 3 tiers, and upgrade extras as needed.
    Also you can buy a mike boom, a shelf which goes below the
    lowest tier (for one or two rack mount devices, or whatever), and
    a drink-holder and ashtray gizmo.
    
    It will hold a great deal of weight, any one of the tiers will take
    an 88 key board, and it is very steady.  I think it would sway a bit if
    you put a Midiboard or an RD1000 on the top tier, (actually, I think
    that the welds might break if you left one of those ~100 pound deals on
    the top shelf for a few month), but  it seems to do the trick for most
    ``rational'' configurations.
    
    Also, it comes apart in about 25-seconds, with all the hardware still
    attached (no bolts or nuts to carry around/lose in a bag) and is about
    3.5' x 2' x 4" when folded. List price is $200 for a three tier.
    
    All in all, it sounds like it offers many of the same features as
    the Invisible, but is probably better if your configurations masses
    more than around 100 kilos.

    re: .16
    
    I agree.  Rok-Steady 3 tier is awsome enough without the
    keyboards!
    
    Sherm

    re 16,17 : I just saw a Rok Steady at Acton Music. I was very impressed
    by how quickly it can be setup and taken down, by the Mic boom
    attachment, and especially by the fact that, when pounded upon,
    it had absolutely NO BOUNCE!! I got a price of $195 for three-tier
    with mic boom attachment and drink/ashtray attchment. Is that good,
    or can I do better elsewhere?
    
    Mike D
    
    

    I imagine that you can do better elsewhere.  I got mine at Acton, but
    it was a present.  (Presents are great, because all the receiver cares
    about is the absolute satisfaction, and all the givers care is that the
    reciever is satisfied, so you don't have to agonize over whether your
    money was better spent on something else, or over getting a better
    deal, so the whole team is happy). 
    
    But Acton isn't known for their bottom drawer prices (but some of
    their stuff IS well priced).  I suspect you could get up to $50
    off of it if you shopped around.
    

    re .19
    
    Maybe I could get a better price....if I could find somebody who
    sells them!! Daddy's doesn't. LaSalle's doesn't. Wurlitzer's doesn't
    (although they said they could get it for me--but if they order
    just one unit they won't be able to do a good price I suspect).
    Hampshire Music doesn't. Sam Ash couldn't give me a price over the
    phone yet (told me to call them back at the end of the week). Music
    Workshop (Salem NH) doesn't carry them either. I might be forced
    to bite the bullet and pay a little more at Acton Music, unless
    anyone has suggestions on who else to try. I need it *yesterday*,
    if you catch my drift.
    
    Mike D 

    Yeah, well, when I was chasing a stand for my KX88 I needed it
    'yesterday', too. And ended up with a 2-tier A-frame Ultimate Support 
    stand that cost a lot, looks good but bounces like a bitch. 
    
    karl moeller

    I thought you couldn't fit 88 keys in a USS (or any of those A-frames)
    Are there several varieties?
    
    Steph
    

    I should add a simple (but not necessarily obvious) point about
    the Rok-Steady.  What makes it less than Rok-Steady is the amount
    of weight on the upper tiers.   The heavier the bottom unit is,
    the more stable it is (only to a point, I'm sure), so think about
    your configuration.  Also, you need a certain amount of weight to
    make it sit right on a flat (non-carpeted) floor.  Three points
    determines a plane, and you have to force the fourth one down. 
    The critical weight is somewhere between that of a DX7 and that
    of a RD-200 on my stand.
    
    Anyhow, if you get the drink stand and the mike boom for the $195
    price, then that is better than list.  Them Acton boys are really
    dealin' now...

    
    re: Rok-Steady stands
    
    Taking some advice from KMII, I shopped around, and got a price
    of $190 from Union in Worcester AND this included the mic/boom
    attachment, the drink/ashtray holder AND the extra shelf (that holds
    two rackmount devices)!!! That is LESS money than Acton Music for
    an extra toy! I'm calling Wurlitzer today to see if they can do
    better (I doubt it, but you never know).
    
    Mike D

RE .24    Wurlitzer couldn't even quote me a price over the phone, so
    I went with Union. Received my stand a week later. I am very pleased
    with it! With the mic/boom attachment, etc., it makes my setup a lot easier
    and more convenient.
    
    
                                                 
    When I was at Union I got talking with the salesman (Jeff) about
    a Mirage. He said he couldn't discount it off the list price, and
    that no music stores were discounting any of Ensoniq's products.
    I found this rather hard to believe. What say you? I realize this
    strays from the subject, and if I should discuss this in a more
    appropriate note (one on Union Music, or one on Ensoniq, or Mirage)
    please tell me, and I will defer my question there.

    How to make an Ultimate not bounce:
    	
    The default (as-it-comes-out-of-the-box) Ultimate stands come in
    two flavors- old and new.  The old ones have holes drilled in the
    horizontal tubes, the new ones have lexan clamps.  Debouncing
    is slightly different depending on the type...
    	
    The general principle for either is to get the center of gravity
    of the keyboard right over the tube.  This involves using that little
    allen wrench and possibly a philips-head screwdriver and open-end
    wrench to move the flat aluminum pieces fore and aft.  My ESQ bounced
    like crazy until I moved the aluminums one full notch away from
    me.  Now it works fine.  (hint- flipping the orientation of the
    Lexan clamp from front to back moves the aluminum about 2/3 of the
    distance that changing screwholes does.  Those of you with drilled
    tubes do not have this option).
    	
    BTW, I have a 3-tier Ultimate, and the top tier is used as a stand
    to hold the sheet music (which I regularly fail to read correctly
    :-) ).                                  
    
    It seems the new-style Ultimates (with clamped horizontal tubes,
    rather than drilled horizontal tubes) have less bounce to start
    with.
    	
    Invisible stands have another problem- I have a DX-100 as well as
    the ESQ-1, and the DX just falls through between the girders of
    an Invisible stand!
    
    ------------------------------------------	
    
    Ultimate just came out with an entirely new style of "small stand"-
    it's like a prop from a science fiction movie.  There is a single
    triangular vertical (actually, it slopes back and away), with the
    keyboards cantilevered from the front and the legs flat on the floor
    to the back.  It folds up into a single module.  It's fairly steady,
    but hard to sit at, and the highest you can put a kb is only about
    3 1/2 feet up- which effectively limits you to two tiers for standing
    use.
      
    Cost is about the same as a three-tier USS A-frame stand. ($190)
    They had them at Only Guitar Shop near Albany, NY.  
    
    At least it would look less ugly than a USS A-frame in your formal
    living room....

    Has anybody used one of those Apex column keyboard stands?
    
    It looks kinda cool. Wonder if it's sturdy?
    
    Mike D

    I played with one for about an hour.  It had a KX88 and a DX27 on
    it.
    
    Nicely a portable, of course.
    
    It seemed reasonably sturdy with respect to pounding on the sucker.
    Didn't rock or sway too much.
    
    It was, however, HIGHLY suceptible to hits on the ends of the kbd
    in directions other than down or back.
    That is, if your shirt or your pin-headed lead singer's spandex tights
    get caught on the end of your KX88 as you (she?) walks around it, it
    appeared to me that you were in for a major spill (repair job?).
    
    Also there is no good place to put the @#&$^@$*@&# pedals.
    
    The niftiness of the stand might be worth the extra care required,
    though.  Except for the pedal problem.
    
    Steph

    I just picked up a KX76 ... and found that it WON'T fit on my 3-tier
    USS stand (the board is too long).  I'm also concerned about the amount
    of bounce, since this keyboard is considerably heavier than my other
    boards.  As it stands, my OB bounces like crazy if you play very hard.

    Any suggestions as to what to do?

-b

    RE .29 
       
    	In many cases, I believe you can get replacement tier bars of
    longer length.
    
    	Are you saying the KX is heavier than the OB?!

    My KX88 fits on a two-tier USS stand.. the front bar supports the
    KX88, the rear bar, even with the top of the KX88, allows me to
    support two mixers and a Nak cassette deck, rears on the rear bar,
    fronts on the KX88.
    
    Since I moved the support cross bars (4 on the KX88), no shake..
    and that thing weighs ~80lb.
    
    karl

    I have a Rok-Steady.  It's only one tier.  That's all I need.  The only
    keyboards I have are my RD-300 (88 keys, wide and heavy) and my ESQ-1. 
    Everything else is in my rack.
    
    The ESQ-1 sits on top of the RD.  Using the ESQ-1 as a MIDI system
    controller, I haven't found any need to add another keyboard.
    
    The stand cost me something like $50 and I like it.  It's height is
    adjustable and allows me to use it both sitting on a stool as well
    as standing up.  Even with my wide/heavy RD, I find it to be very
    stabile.  I get absolutely no bounce playing at my hardest velocity.
    
    It's very light, and sets up and breaks down in less than 20 seconds.
    
    It's one of the few areas where I've been able to save a few bucks and
    end up with something that doesn't involve any compromise.
    
    	db

    
    The USS stands come in lengths of 48", 54" and  60".  They  may
    come longer but I'm not sure.
    
    As it turns out,  all of the lengths end up being about an inch
    to short for keyboards in that size range.  For example a  DX-7
    is just about 48" exactly and scrapes the edges of a 48"  stand
    when the bar flexes.  The Roland RD-300 is about 55"  long  and
    won't fit on a 54" tier.
    
    For the most part though,  the 60" stand is  more  than  enough
    for the 88 key instruments.
    
    _sjz

    The trick in nulling out "bounce" on a USS stand is to shift some
    of the weight of the keyboard toward the back of the stand, so that
    the keystrike impacts are closer to the crossbar.
    
    I had a bounce problem with my ESQ... until I moved it back 2 inches.
    Now the crossbar is about 1" CLOSER to me than the furthest edge
    of the keyboard, and there's essentially no rotational bounce.
    	
    Likewise, you may have to slide the crossbars up and down slightly;
    you want especially to avoid having the crossbar at "small rational
    fractions" of the vertical bar lengths.  For example, don't put
    the horizontal at exactly 1/2 the height; put it a few inches up,
    say at 11/19'ths the height. 
    
    Finally, don't have the spreading bar exactly horizontal.  Tip it
    some, so that the front and rear vertical lengths are slightly
    different.
              
    ----------------
    
    You can do these same sort of tricks with most other keyboard stands,
    such as Invisibles (varying the tension of the turnbuckles shifts
    the resonant frequency; having the two sides slightly different
    prevents runaway oscillation).
    
    	-Bill
    

RE: last few

    Sounds like I need to get some 54" or 60" cross members.  Will measure
    the 76 and see what the deal is. 

    Thanks for the tips on stand adjustment, too.

-b

    I found a way to make the KX76 fit on a 48" USS stand (finally) without
    being forced to buy new hardware (even though I already have). 

    The KX is wider than 48", but only the top half of it.  It looks like
    this: 

	+-------------------------------------------------------------+
	|                                                             |
	+--+                                                       +--+
	   |                      <-- 48" -->                      |
    	   +-------------------------------------------------------+

    from the front.  The indented portion is just a skosh less than 48", so
    I mounted it on the top bar of the USS.  It fit, but the plastic mount
    knobs (that you twist to keep the support bar from spinning) kept the
    thing from sitting down on the supports.  SO ... 

    I swapped the sides they were on and turned them 180�, so that the
    knobs faced toward the back, like so: 

			/\
    		       / |=       <--- reversed twist knob
		      /	   \
		     /	    =|
		    /	     \
		   /	      =|  <--- twist knobs

    It's really up in the air, but if you stand when you play, it doesn't
    matter that much.  The only drawback I can see (other than accessing
    the twists from the backside) it is that one of the footswitch holes is
    not usable without a right L plug. 

-b

    I spun all my hardware around on my USS same as Brad. It just seemed
    to make a better place to hang headphones, breath controllers and
    miscellaneous stuff of that nature and ilk. So much neater with
    everything inside the A-frame...
    
    Edd 

    
    
    I just took the knobs off my USS and replaced them with a few
    extra allen-type screws that I got when I bought an extra
    tier.  Admittedly, its not as easy to break down for live
    situations, but right now the stand is just used in the studio
    so it works out great.
    
    Ralph
    
    

    I just picked up a rock-steady for $50. Three tier no less!. 
    Takes up a lot less space than the USS.
    Now I need another keyboard so I can fill it up!
    

    Anyone know of a good, reliable mail order company that sells stands
    at a good price?
    
    Thanks,
    Paul

          <<< Note 820.40 by MOSAIC::HOULE "OS/2 - Catch the wave" >>>
               -< looking for good reliable mail order company >-

Paul,

I would highly recommend Caruso's Music in Conn. 203-442-9600.
Ask for Larry or Richard Caruso. These guys are great; fast service,
correct order, overnight delivery, nononsense prices.

dave

    
    Just picked up an Invisible MS-3000 stand.  This is their "workstation"
    stand, three tiers with two shelves (which I needed to hold all my
    non-rack-mountable junk).
    
    One shelf is solid, the other has a large hole for routing cables
    through and two smaller holes of no immediately identifiable purpose.
    This shelf also has an "extension", a metal tray which can be extended
    (however, it doesn't slide out, you either have it stowed away or
    sticking out) for supporting a computer keyboard or anything else you
    would like to be suspended over your main keyboard.
    
    It can be used as a three tier stand without the shelves as well.  The
    shelves are *not* fastened down, although they weigh enough that you'd
    really have to bang them to make them move, particularly if loaded down
    with heavy stuff. 
    
    Overall, very sturdy.  I gotta say I'm fascinated by the physics behind
    this design.  Loosen one turnbuckle and the thing wants to fall into a
    half dozen pieces.  Tighten it up and it's like a rock.  Way cool.
    
    						
    							Brian

    I used to have one.  I think the two little holes you refer to are
    optional mounting spots for the shelf.  Wobbles some with all the gear
    on the shelves, but that's no big deal if you're at home.  Be sure not
    to try to correct the wobbling by overtightening the adjustment nut.
    I bought a third shelf and put that on the back to hold stuff like
    an amp, cassette deck, disks and such.  Helped keep it balanced.
    
    Steve

       ..speaking of stands, has anyone seen the new "STEALTH" keyboard
    stand from USS??? I thought it was a joke until I saw one advertised
    in Keyboard. Looks like it holds one keyboard, and is not adjustable.
    
    Anyone seen one in the flesh?
    
    Frank

yeah, looks like they stole my idea...  

I built a stand that looks very much like it out of 1/2 a sheet of plywood
and a couple of hinges several years ago.  I got the idea from the old style
big-band music stands.  

    Anyone had some experience now with the stands discussed in .0-.45
    (Rok-Steady, Invisible, Apex, etc)?
    
    I just picked up a KX88 (after all these years!) and, because of my
    KX76 (which I've decided to not sell) and my Oberheim, I'm in need of
    another stand.
    
    I currently have a USS 3-tier which, in spite of all the good advice in
    this note, bounces like a ball.  I am simply unable to get the thing to
    stay still if really pounding - using one x-bar, that is.  I've gone to
    two x-bars for the KX76, and that seems to have helped.  Either way,
    the USS is (again!) not wide enough for the KX88.  So rather than yet
    again getting new and longer x-bars, I thought I'd see what else is out
    there.
    
    BTW I'm not sure I want another 3-tier stand (read: I could live
    without playing the Oberheim directly) ... I do want something that is
    very sturdy, easy to tear down, and does not have a "length limitation"
    as far as the keyboard is concerned.  Support for KX76 on top and KX88
    on bottom is minimum.
    
    Any experiences would be most appreciated.
    
+b

    I used to have an Invisible stand.  It meets your requirements for
    being easy to set up and tear down and for being able to put about any
    size keyboard on it.  But, it wobbles something fierce.  I usually had
    it propped up against a wall corner to keep it steady.
    
    Steve

I have owned uss 3 tier, the invisible and an Apex Column.
I agree the that the 3 tier bounces too much and the invisible
does twist a bit.  My favorite to date the Apex column.  
Easy to set up, no bounce.  The only problem is that if that it
is probably easier to knock over than the other two.

			Mark...

    How about a prestressed concrete keyboard stand?
                                                   
    	:-)
    
    -Bill

    How about a QUIK-LOK, they are cheap, and easy to set up and break down.
    I have never experienced any bouncing, however I recommend getting the
    the hardware for the second tier, this helps keep the keyboard on the
    the lower tier for slipping off the front.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Errol

    Er, didn't I say *portable*, Bill?  Sheesh.  8*)
    

    Boy.. we should be using decwindows notes so you could see how I solved
    my KX88 bounce prob.. BTW you won't get 127 velocities out of it if
    it's bouncing..
    
    I use a USS 'A' frame stand with the LOOONNG crossbars.  The one on the
    front (closest to me) upright is under
    the KX88, centered as you might expect, with four of its own flat uh, 
    cross-crossbars under the keyboard.  These little guys have a rubber
    coated tang or bolt thru one end, if you recall, and I have two tangs
    behind the KX88 and two in front - can't slip forward or backward.
    
    But that's not enough to stop the bounce.  The second crossbar is 
    mounted on the rear upright (farthest from me), and its top edge,
    follow me on this, is even with the top surface of the KX88.  I then
    take two of the flat cross-crossbars (oh, for a picture!) and mount
    them to apply DOWNWARD pressure on the back edge of the KX88.  This is
    also a handy mounting surface for my compact KM802 mixer.
    
    I'll try some VT graphix
    
                       O   (hinge, side view)
                      / \
                     /   \
                     /    \
    Performer       /      \
                    /    +------+    mixer side view
                   /     |      |
            +------------+--+---+
            | KX88          |  O    - top rear xbar
            +---------------+   \
                  O              \
                 /                \
    
    
    

    I have a three tier Rok-Steady. If I had it to do over again I think I
    would look harder at the Quick-Lok.
    
    I tried using all three tiers a few times but I didn't like the way my
    view of the rest of the band was cut off. Since I only plan to have
    three keyboards total two tiers will be enough. (I keep the strap-on
    Roland Axis in a guitar holder.) 
    
    The Rok_Steady is sturdy. It wobbles the least of the stands that I
    looked at, and IMHO it looks "cooler" than most of the other stands,
    (except maybe the Apex.) It sets up fairly easily, and comes down just
    as easily.
    	My complaints with the stand have to do with little things. The
    materials used in its construction are sturdy enough but things have
    gotten loose on me. The screw socket on the left side that holds the
    second tier is a little loose and wobbles a bit. This doesn't affect
    the keyboard when playing, but it does make it sit a bit crooked.
    	The rubber strips and caps on the stand keep coming off an I have
    to re glue them. One of the rivets that holds a screw socket keeps
    working its way out. 
    	My only other complaint is one of safety. Since the Rok-Steady is
    basically an "X" with a cross brace to keep it from collapsing I think
    that the designers should have put a bit more thought into the cross
    piece. The cross piece is a notched bar the allows you to select the
    set up height by which notch you clamp down on. This is done with a
    large wing nut. If you are not careful on how you clamp this down it is
    possible for this bar to pop out of the clamp and your whole rig will
    come crashing down in your lap. I know of one person who dumped an 80lb
    MIDIboard on his knee this way. I made a trivial mod to mine
    consisting of a couple of washers, so that I can really clamp the thing 
    down well.
    
    	So, a few complaints... but temper your opinion with the knowledge
    that I have been doing a fair amount of gigging with my Rok-Steady, so
    maybe my criticisms are harsher than it deserves.
    
    	Mark

    Hmmm.  It never ceases to amaze me how many hoops people with USS
    stands jump thru to get rid of the "bounce".  I agree with you, Karl -
    you *won't* get 127 out of either the 76 or the 88 with bounce.  
    
    I've almost given up hope of getting my USS to work - I was excited
    about your (Karl) idea until I saw how it works ... you have the
    *shorter* A, it appears, and I have the 3-tier.  The legs in the A are
    too far apart for me to do this and have the 88 at a reasonable height.
    Of course, I could get the extended x-x pieces, along with the longer
    x-pieces ... but I'd be spending as much for the new hardware as I
    would for a new stand, methinks.  8-(
    
    One of my friends has a Rok-Steady stand, and is going to bring it over
    this week.
    
+b

    Back again.  I've been thinking about what I *really* want to do with
    these things.  I'll have 3 different controllers available to me when
    all is said and done:
    
      a) KX76
      b) KX88
      c) OB-Xa (not really a controller, but I gotta put it somewhere)
    
    I don't think I want to go any higher than the USS 3-tier, and I can't
    very well stack all 3 of these on one stand and have them easily
    accessible, so ...
    
    What about a setup that looks (from top view) like this:
    
           ?______________
           /  KX76/KX88
          /X
         /B
        /O
    
    The "?" indicates a weird corner piece.  I seem to remember seeing
    stands like this in a music store display, but don't know if they're
    mega expensive ... and I don't want to end up with a "pit" that takes
    forever to tear down/set up.  Is this a rational thing to do, from a
    gigging point of view?  Am I going to go bust buying the stand?
    
+b

    re .54 - I have a three tier USS, and my JX-10 was bouncing, so I
    solved the problem by using two pairs of support arms (the flat things
    with the countersunk holes in them), one pair mounted in a front crossbar
    and one pair mounted on a back crossbar.  By mounting the support arms
    through the holes closest to the little upright post, I was able to
    easily span the separation between the front and back uprights at a
    reasonable height for the keyboard.  It takes a little adjusting, and
    is probably not practical for a portable setup, but works terrific
    for me.  The keyboard is as stable as if sitting on the floor.
    
    The crossbars and support arms have to be properly aligned for
    whatever angle you want the keyboard to sit at, and taking account
    of the thickness of the arms, so one pair of arms can sit flush on top
    of the other.  Using a similar trick at the top of the stand (two
    crossbars supporting single support arms to span the gap) I was able to
    stably support two filled 8 space racks.
    
    len.
    

    I tried doing the dual-support thing - in fact, what you're doing with
    your JX is what I'm doing with my KX76.  The problem is going *further*
    down the A.  For example, I have enough hardware to "double-support"
    the Oberheim, but the brackets aren't long enough to reach the back
    side of the A.  Like so:
    
                                /\
                               /  \ <-- okay here
                              /    \ <-- okay here too
                             /      \ <-- NOT here
                            /        \
    
    Don't you love ASCII graphics?  8-(
    
+b

    How low do you want that keyboard to be?  I've got my JX-10 mounted
    with the keys about 24 inches off the floor, no trouble.  The support
    bars only overlap about 2 inches, but that's enough to provide a solid
    foundation.  Maybe your bars are shorter than mine?  I can't imagine
    anything usefully mounted underneath it, in fact I use underneath the
    JX as storage space.  Tonight I'll measure the span.  Maybe my USS
    doesn't spread as widely as yours.
    
    It looks like this (not to scale, of course)
    
    
    
               /                                \
              /   +------------------------------\--------+
             /    |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\XXXXXXX|
            /     |XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\XXXXXX|
           /      +---------------------------------\-----+|
   |      /                 _________________________\_____+_
  -+-----/-----------------------                     \
        /                                              \
       /                                                \
      /                                                  \
    
    The support bars sit flush on one another; they're only about 1/4"
    thick.
    
    
    len.
    

    I measured my USS and got the following:
    
    The JX-10's support bars are 26" above the floor.  At that point, the
    USS's legs are 16.5" apart at their centerlines.  The support bars
    overlap one another by about 2 inches.
    
    The support bars are each 14" long.  4.5" of that overhangs the
    crossbar at the vertical stop end.
    
    The arithmetic more or less works out:
    
     ----+----------
                  ------------+----
    |4.5 |       | 2|         | 4.5|  
                 |        14       |
    |       14      |
         |  7.5  |  |    7.5  |
         |        16.5        |
    
    So there's half an inch missing/extra somewhere...  All measurements to
    the nearest quarter inch or so.
    
    Anyway, at the floor, the legs are 27" apart.
    
    Also, my picture in the previous reply is a little wrong; the rear
    support bar sits on top of, rather than underneath, the front one.
    
    len.
    

    Oh - I see what you're doing - you're overlapping the "swing-out"
    pieces.  These are available in different lengths.  I happened to get
    the short ones when I bought the stand, and I need the long ones
    instead.
    
    I run a single flat piece across two support bars for the KX76:
    
                                       /\
                                      /  \
                                     /    \
                    front         !-o------o-  (similar to this, but at
                                   /        \   an angle tilted forward)
                                  /          \
                                 /            \
    
    If I had a longer "!---" piece, I could do the same thing lower on the
    stand (or if I had another pair of "!---" shorts, which I don't).   I'd
    also need another "o" piece as well, plus two plastic twist lock
    brackets ... and that hasn't even addressed the length problem (in
    short, the "o" pieces all need replaced!).  I figure the new parts
    would cost as much as another stand.
    
    I tried a Rok Steady stand last week, and was very pleased with its
    stability (but it's kinda ugly, imo).  I'll be trying another friend's
    Apex sometime in the next few days.  I may keep the USS, but it'll
    remain in the studio and not used live.
    
+b

    For those of you with "unique" needs, AND on a budget...
    
    Not too long ago a reader submitted an article to Keyboard about
    building your own stands. I tried it, and it works GREAT.
    
    The material is schedule 40 DWV (drain, waste, vent) pipe, available
    at any building center. I used 1.25" stock, but it's available in other
    diameters. Price? Around 30 cents a foot. There are also a variety of
    "L", "T", and "Y" type connectors available. The "T" type go for less
    than a buck a piece.
    
    Construction couldn't be easier. You'll need a hacksaw. That's it. The
    saw goes thru the stuff in about 5 strokes.
    
    My first project was an "entertainment center" to hold my TV, VCR,
    integrated amp, tuner, eq, CD, tape, TV tuner and turntable. Total time 
    was about 4 hours, not including paint. Total cost was under $50.
    
    After a couple errors, I learned not to bother with glue. The fittings
    are very tight, and if you have glue on them you'll never get them
    apart after about 15 seconds. Even without the glue, I was able to
    climb up on mine and sit on the top. (200 lbs, 6' in the air!)
    
    Painting is the aggravating part, as the stuff is real shiney and
    requires a thorough sanding for the paint to stick.
    
    Next project is a stand for the mixing board...
    
    Edd

re             <<< Note 820.61 by MANTHN::EDD "Daze of the weak..." >>>
>                      -< Cheap, strong, custom stands... >-

>    After a couple errors, I learned not to bother with glue. The fittings
>    are very tight, and if you have glue on them you'll never get them
>    apart after about 15 seconds. Even without the glue, I was able to
>    climb up on mine and sit on the top. (200 lbs, 6' in the air!)

	Not bothering with the glue might have been your next error (-:

Unless everything is going to be very still and quiet these things are 
going to loosen up as they rack(verb), I just can't imagine playing 
keys on one of these and suddenly finding the KX88 actually IN my lap.
I wouldn't trust my precious toys to unglued pipe furniture, still
less my bod'   If you "NEED"  to make these things take-apart, for 
gigging or whatever, I think you should at least consider drilling and
pinning the joints.   IMHO, FWIW, etc.

	R

    > loosen up as they rack...
    
    True, but for my entertainment center I don't plan on moving it a whole
    lot. A gigging musician may find it safer to glue a few strategic
    junctions and then just dry fit the ones that have to move. 
    
    Racking (verb) hasn't proven to be a problem. Yet?
    
    > PVC????
    
    That may be what it is, but if you look for the "SCH 40" tag you'll
    have the right stuff. I've only seen it in white.

    You may wake up one morning to find your entertainment center in a pile
    on the floor.  Heat/cool cycles will do the job without you having to
    move anything.
    
    Particularly any joints that you do not want to rotate or pull apart
    should be pinned.  Any joint in compression should not be a problem.
    
    Considering the value of the stuff on the rack, I would not take the
    chance.  But assemble the whole thing without glue first to make
    sure you have all the measurements correct, if you still want glue.
    Pins (probably long bolts is best) is easier.

Very conservative architects in this conference. :^)

Anyone who has built with Tinker Toys or "Contructs" knows that you can 
build things that are quite strong in certain "directions". As long 
as you plan ahead and use the structure only as intended, there are lots 
of cases where adding pins will do nothing significant to the strength 
of the structure. Of course I used to love those "nomadic" furniture 
books from the `70s... I built a living room chair out of cardboard 
carpet tubes held together by long threaded bolts.

As for heat and cool cycles, this probably won't have significant effect when
the connected materials are the same - mostly  when unlike materials are 
connected.  And PVC isn't really going to change much is it?  That's why
it is used for plumbing.

Dave

re                      <<< Note 820.66 by TERSE::ROBINSON >>>


> Very conservative architects in this conference. :^)

> Anyone who has built with Tinker Toys or "Contructs" knows that you can 
> build things that are quite strong in certain "directions". As long 

	Yeah, OK  concrete is great in compression, but not in 
tension, etc.

> as you plan ahead and use the structure only as intended, there are lots 
> of cases where adding pins will do nothing significant to the strength 
> of the structure. Of course I used to love those "nomadic" furniture 

	right, in a timber frame house (for example) the pegs DO 
serve to hold the load bearing joints together, though the pegs 
themselves don't carry the structural load.


> books from the `70s... I built a living room chair out of cardboard 
> carpet tubes held together by long threaded bolts.

	WoW !   How very, errrrr  -  po_wo_yu_ru_ve'ish  	(-:

> As for heat and cool cycles, this probably won't have significant effect when
> the connected materials are the same - mostly  when unlike materials are 
> connected.  And PVC isn't really going to change much is it?  That's why
> it is used for plumbing.

	I thought it was used in plumbing not because of its thermal 
stability, but because of its ability to 





			"take a lot of sh*t"

    I thought thermal stability and the ability to "take a lot of $#*%"
    were directly proportional.  I mean, that's why *I* have always thought
    of myself as being like PVC tubing ...
    
    Steve

    Do you guys think if I glued all the joints and then filled the stand
    with water the highs from the stereo would be more fluid?
    
    Edd

    No, fill the pipes with sand to lower the resonant frequency.  There
    was some speaker mfr that did that - had double walled boxes with sand
    inside.  Keeping the cost issue in mind, the raw material is cheap.
    
    karl

    re .70 - I think that was Wharfedale.  Typically English.  Of course,
    a drummer would claim that the sand deadened the shell (ooops,
    *enclosure*) resonance, making the speaker sound like a cardboard
    box...
    
    len.
    

re           <<< Note 820.71 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS "len, EMA, LKG1-2/W10" >>>
>                -< Ideally, Black Sand from the Isle of Wight >-

>    re .70 - I think that was Wharfedale.  Typically English.  Of course,
>    a drummer would claim that the sand deadened the shell (ooops,
>    *enclosure*) resonance, making the speaker sound like a cardboard
>    box...

>    len.
 
	errr,  a while ago  - -  I'm surprised that anyone remembers it.   

	As I remember it all the build-yer-own-speakers enthusiasts 
were pouring a couple of hundred weight (CWT) of sand into the backs 
of their speakers too at that time.  Also, there was at least one 
article in  "Wireless World"  that detailed speaker baffles of lead 
(pronounced "led", not "leed" - though l.e.d.s didn't exist yet/then) 
to eliminate the resonances that plywood baffles have.  This was the
sheet lead that was used on roofs, still is used in some places for 
flashing (roof flashing).  

	R

    
    
    er Mr Fehskens I would suggest that your suggestion that filling a
    speaker enlosure with sand was a very "English" thing is verging on
    American dare I say Colonial elitism...Actually it was indeed the
    stands that we used to fill with sand. I've still got mine I think I've
    grown out of believing that I can hear the difference. I like the idea
    of the waste tubing though. If you combine this with speaking to Ralph
    on the white telephone we could almost end up with a concept album..
    
    We could call it Huuuuuughie.
    
    					PeeKay.
    Any Names?

	This topic continues to go down the 2ooobz 

	its been a while since we heard from our intrepid glueless 
(did I spell that correctly) PVC pipe stand erector person, the IGPVCPSEP

Where is he ?  

Should we send out a rescue party to dig him out from under a pile of
midi gear and sprung apart equipment stands ? 

In short(s)  how well is this stuff holding up ?


	R

    The GFS (glue free stand) is used to support my TV and stereo
    equipment in the living room, not as part of my keyboard rig.
    
    Given that... it's as solid as a rock. Even though the turntable
    is almost 6' above the floor, I can walk around and not cause a
    record to skip.
    
    Constant assemble/disassemble cycles may cause the fittings to loosen,
    but in my application that's not an issue.
    
    Edd

    Seeing that I've spent entirely too much time fitting PVC in the last
    several months, I think I can accurately say that Edd is safe.  There's
    little need to worry about "expansion/contraction" - if the coefficient
    was that great, the stuff wouldn't work for plumbing!  Besides, I'd
    challenge a skeptic to try putting a fitting real snug on one end of a
    piece of PVC - WITHOUT glue - then try to get the two pieces apart. 
    Possible, but not easy.
    
    I suppose there'd be some wear and possibility for working loose if it
    was used live, but a) if the ends are cut square and b) you're not an
    animal, I'd seriously doubt any problem there, either.
    
+b

    My entertainment center is also constructed in such a way that for any
    one joint to seperate there would have to be another that allowed it
    to do so. I can take it apart from the top down, but from that point 
    on it kind of interlocks...
    
    Edd

    
    
    I think a 3D representation of this thing is required so I can really
    get an idea of what you are talking about. You do mean the stuff that
    plugs into the waste outlet of your sink yes?
    
    
    						PeeKay.

    >...the stuff that plugs into the waste outlet...?
    
    Dunno what's used on the wrong side of the ocean, but it's probably
    the same.
    
    It's called SCH-40 ("schedule 40") DWV (drain, waste, vent) pipe. I
    believe it's made of PVC, but couldn't tell you what properties qualify
    it as SCH 40. It's quite stiff.
    
    I'll see if I can come up with some VT graphics...
    
    Edd