Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    
    I bet this is the general purpse extension of the 
    MKS20 archetecture that allows you SOMEHOW to define
    time varying timbres. I havent heard it, but did hear
    that it has some unique sounds...on the down side my
    reviewer said that they similar enuf (tho pleasing)
    to become cliche'd...
    
    OK. Tell me how accurate he is.
    
    rr
     

    
    	I read a bit about it in Roland Users' Guide.  Re .1  nope,
    it isn't SAS (Structured Adaptive Synthesis) its L/A (Linear
    Arithmetic).  The blurb starts of with something about Rolands
    commitment to the philosophy that no one technology is enough to
    fill the wide variety of needs..., etc.  Anyway, they say they use
    two kinds of partials and you can get lots of variety by combining
    the two or using two of the same kind.  It also has reverb, chorus,
    delay, etc built in.
    
    	Reg
    

    hm. doesnt sound powerful enuf.
    
    Didnt Sequential have out some Vector Synthesis thing? VS1?

    wonder what happened to that.
    
    
    Looks like we need some research here....
    

    I heard one at EU Wurlitzer in Framingham last Saturday.  It sounded
    real nice.   Rumor has it that it has a DEP-5 chip in it for reverb
    etc.  You can't edit these effect programs, though.
    
    It sounded like the attack evelope came from a sample.  For instance
    there was string patch preset.  When played pizzicatto (sp?), it
    sounded like sampled plucked strings.  When held down you could
    hear the sample merge into a synth string sound.
    
    It also had some great after touch effects.  All the other presets
    I heard sounded very complicated, more like a bunch of synths layered
    together by MIDI and they were very usable.  It sounded like nothing
    I've heard before.
    
    I'd wish Roland would come out with a rackmount S-50/D-50 combo!  

    Dave

    re .4	Yup, the RUG article said that the envelopes were from
    samples.  I'd type the damned thing in if I wasn't so busy, but
    there are block diagrams and stuff, so a lot would get lost.  What
    I will do is bring it in tomorrow and make a whole bunch of copies,
    if anyone is REALLY interested in it they can send me mail and I'll
    send out xox's.   
    
    	Reg
    
    	(Hmmm, Len ?, you tried one of these yet ?,  

        				(got one at home yet ?))
    

    Nope, haven't heard one, haven't bought one.  Have heard mostly
    good things about it, the architecture is JX-10-like but with a
    different implementation technology.
    
    Roland is not using "partial" to mean harmonic; the "partials" function
    like oscillators in a traditional synth (i.e., they are by themselves
    capable of producing waveforms more complex than a sine).  Two partials
    make a tone, two tones make a patch.  Think of it as a four oscillator
    synth.
    
    len.
    

    The latest 'Sequencer' issue of Keyboard mag has a 3-page ad for
    the D-50.. you can combine two synth partials, or two PCM partials,
    or one of each in 'several different relationships'.. I see a '20
    bit D/A converter' shown in the block diagram.. there was one at
    Synthony music in Scottsdale AZ yesterday but I was tired and 
    understandably fixated on the Emax.
    
    Uhh.. the D-50 ad's lead-in reads
    
    "To the Player it's a Dream, to the Programmer it's a Miracle"
    
    urp. karl
    

I THINK this is the new Roland beast I heard at Wurlitzer in Framingham this 
week.  If so, it's quite impressive and certainly in league with the Yamaha 
DX7 and Casio CZ families.  Depending on the price, I might even consider it 
vs. a Yamaha setup.  The sounds are quite diverse in feel as well as actual 
sound characteristics, which makes sense if they have more than one way of 
getting a sound.  I've seen it advertised somewhere as an FM-type synth, which 
isn't really accurate.  Although Korg supposedly has a DX7 clone that just 
came out and is legitimately FM compatible.


				Mark

    Thanks for the article whoever (was that you REG_B?).
    
    Nice machine conceptually. You apparently create the
    sound you want in sections ('partials') of time. The
    sections can be waves produced by PCM samples (all presets,
    no sampling, and some 1/4 sec. long, some loop, etc)
    OR the good old DCO/DCF/DCA approach. Im not clear on
    how many sections (looks like 2 max)and how long/short 
    each can be (looks like the Amp. envelope determines?),
    but it seems flexible. Yet limited. A hybrid of sample
    presets and 'analogy' techniques. Words wont describe
    the sound tho...
        
    One other amazin thing here to me: 2 digital parametric
    eq's feeding a digital chorus feeding a digital reverb
    PER EACH 2 PARTIALS with stereo synthesised by the chorus and
    Reverb....my,my. An SRV inside this too?
    

    { Ring ring}
    " G'afternoon,Thuroughbred music..."
        
    "Hi, keyboards please".
    
     {muzak overdubbed with live heavy-metal amp trial in showroom}
    
    " Hi, this is Bill. Whazhappinin?"
    
    " Hi. Need an estimate of damage if I get a D-50 "

    " Yo, mon. $1800. Includes shipping "

     "Huh? Wheres the discount I know you guys are famous for?"

     "We have 'em and you want 'em. $1895 list. EVERYONE's gonna
     be sellin at list. Trust me. You want one. or two. One for
    each hand right? you wanna be famous, right? The best sounds,
    like strings, whew, and awesome new sounds only YOU will be
    makin'. Like a trademark, y'know? The latest...."
    
    " Ah, whoa. Ok. Thanks. I'll go try one out locally first"
    
    " We'll be waiting for your call, mon. Rock on! Chow."
    
    Supply and demand and price fixing and the 80's hit home {sigh}

    
    	re .10	So, what's new ?  Just track the price slope of any
    of this stuff over time.   For my use I'm figuring on not buying
    anything until its been out for at least a year and the price has
    started to level off; well, unless its real cheap; well, unless
    I really need it; well, unless I just have no better use for the
    cash right now; errr, no I've never bought on glitz or impulse;
    well, maybe once or....ummm 
    
    	So, when does the MKS 20 get superceded with a model II or
    /B ?

    	Reg
    
    (Season's a changin', the cover is off the boat)

    So what's up with this beast?  Anyone buy one yet?  How about some
    first-hand experience?  How much was it?  Where'd you get it?
    
    I saw/heard one of these for the first time Saturday.  Wow!  I was
    *really* impressed -- in fact, I had check book in hand and offered
    cash:  "So what's the price?"  ---  $1895. --- "What if I pay in
    full, cash, right now?"  --- $1895.
    
    This was Wurlie's in Worcester.  They said they have about 20 of
    them, and all but 2 are spoken for.  Also, they said they're the
    only guys in the area that have'm.
    
    Is $1800 the best mail-order price anyone has found?  
    
    I'm seriously thinking about getting one soon -- its only drawback
    was the keyboard.  The same mushy jello action as the Juno's, etc.
    
    Ron

RE: -1

I have probably played with it as much as you, and like it - nice, crisp, clear,
rich full sounds.  Sounds really nice with the MC-500 demo disk created for
it.

My story...
My fingers were twiddling on the seat as I listened to the stereo and I thought
to myself "Hey, it's been a while since I seriously have played, I should
see what's available!".  It's been a while since those Hammond A-101 days
and I should get back into it.  So I stopped by E.U. Wurlitzer in Framingham
and met Jack.  By this time I wanted a Matrix-6, DW-8000, S-50, JX-8P and
was waiting for the JX-10.  I said "Whoa! I had better define my needs."
So by reading thru here, thanks to all you wonderful people, and listening
to Jack and other retailers I learned more and more.

I decided that the machine I would purchase should have the following "things":
	- Nice sound.  Not neccesarily(SP) stupendous but crisp, clear and rich
		and Profound.
	- Flexible.
	- Good feel to the keyboard.  Not being a pianist I'm not too picky.

So, it came down to one of two, the Xk and the Matrix-6R or the D-50.  One
of the notes about Musicians Direct mentioned the "arthritic" key of the
Oberhiem so I went to LaSalle to try the Matrix-6 there only for the feel
of the keyboard.  Yucky!  So, onto choice number 2...

I first saw this machine at Wurlie's in Framingham.  In talking with Jack
he said that $1895 was the price I would find everywhere, and if I happen
to find it cheaper to tell him, he would confirm it, offer me the same price,
and report the cheaper dealer to Roland who would fiddle with his/her allocation
etc.  After hearing that I put that 'Unfair Competition' note in here.

I have decided on the D-50.  I called a number of dealers that have good
reputations in this notefile, and of the six I called one gave me a price
of $1595.  So totaling this up, as a smart shopper would, I get:

		Wurlie's	Mail-order
D-50		$1895.00	$1595.00
Stand		  145.00	  145.00
Tax		  102.00	    n/a
Credit Card 3%	   n/a		   52.20
Shipping	   n/a		   20.00
		--------	--------
Total		$2160.00	$1812.20

Total savings $347.80.

I have decided to go mail-order.  I appreciate what Jack and the other
dealers have offered, like help, allowed to play around, etc., but I don't
agree with Rolands pricing policies and will make my statement by purchasing
it by Mail-order.

It's really a shane.  The ones who lose are the consumers and the dealers.

Dan

	I must have been in a bad mood that day. Nice clean sound,
	with the attacks sampled, and then the body of the sound
	a traditional synth voice. nice twist, but:

1. What does it do that a sampler and a synth layered together wont?
   In some cases 2 synths layered? Ok, if you're only going to get
ONE keyboard and dont own one already....

2. BECAUSE of the built in reverb and delay, its gonna sound better
(especiallly in a marginal showroom setup). But there's no external
input. Dont be sold: " and you get digital reverb built in: its like
a SRV-2000"....its only for the keys. Well, you're only buying ONE
keyboard forever and dont own one already...ok.

3. What is the competition? Better check out the DX7 II. Have you
heard them side by side? ESQ-1?   CZ101!? (just kidding)

4. What is this "programmer's dream" marketting BS? I spent 3 hours
with the apprentice-guru trying to modify a certain sound to see
how flexible the architecture is. Results: Plan on buying the
programmer if you want to do any serious programming (what? $500?)

5. Why didnt I hear a good piano? Not even a good elec. piano.
I know, I know. Subjective. Ears clogged with wax or somethin.

That's big bucks. I really DID want to be blown away and plunk
down a down payment,guys. Maybe I was expecting NEW SOUNDS from a
breakthrough in sound technology. I think my money might better
go for a sampler. It sounded so good in keyboard mag centerfold...{sigh}
   
ron
    

RE:< Note 795.14 by JON::ROSS "Network partner excited first try!{pant}" >

...ruin my fun!  I spend all this time looking for a nice machine and look,
look what you do!  Run it into the ground!!  Sheesh!  8-)

>2. BECAUSE of the built in reverb and delay, its gonna sound better
>(especiallly in a marginal showroom setup). But there's no external
>input. Dont be sold: " and you get digital reverb built in: its like
>a SRV-2000"....its only for the keys. Well, you're only buying ONE
>keyboard forever and dont own one already...ok.
I understand this.  I also understand that programming of the reverb
is limited, too.  But, hey...first machine...

>3. What is the competition? Better check out the DX7 II. Have you
>heard them side by side? ESQ-1?   CZ101!? (just kidding)
I haven't done side-by-side's, mostly from memory.  I like the sound
from the D-50 best of all.

>4. What is this "programmer's dream" marketting BS? I spent 3 hours
>with the apprentice-guru trying to modify a certain sound to see
>how flexible the architecture is. Results: Plan on buying the
>programmer if you want to do any serious programming (what? $500?)
I'm not too concerned about getting a programmer, if I have to, I can get
it for the difference of the savings.  But the programmer is no joy either.
Maybe a software package will come out for programming.

>5. Why didnt I hear a good piano? Not even a good elec. piano.
>I know, I know. Subjective. Ears clogged with wax or somethin.
I agree that the piano was limp, there were two if I remember a low and
a high.

Thanks for your input, Ron...
Dan    

    my pleasure. Subjective areas are easy to be objective about.
    
    I dont know. Look, if you've seen,tried, and heard the other
    synths in that price range....and this is your fave, go for it.
    It seems sonically flexible but awkward to program (so's the DX7..
    it must be the price you pay) and DOES sound very nice.
    
    My gripe was not with the instrument, but with the advertisements
    and myself for thinking that some new revolutionary technique
    of sound production had made the scene. Well, its new, but the
    sonic pallet aint that much different....
    
    get it? er, Get it! And then give us a review!
    
    Now a S50/D50 combo in a rack for $1895.....

    re .14	Very appropriate analogy, centre folds just aren't like
    that in real life.
    
    	Reg
    

    Depends on the architecture of the model.....

If there is a more appropriate location for this note...

The other day, while playing with Rolands Sound Card 4 for the D50,
I was trying to find interseting guitar sounds.

#21 Spanish Guitar and
#23 Gypsy Guitar

when played in the lowest octave and a half with perhaps a bit of tone balance
adjustment in the positive side make what I think are neat basses.

Chad

    Hi - I have a nice OBOE patch which requires excessive pressure
    on the keyboard to poduce the vibrato (modulation) affect. The
    mod wheel won't respond. Is there an easy way to adjust this so
    that a lighter touch, or the mod wheel will produce the vibrato? I
    haven't done much D50 programming so I'm not familiar with how to do
    this.
    
    Thanks!
    
    Bill

    
    
    Er... Yes.
    
    Two things.
    
    Either increase the A.T. sensitivity, whic will reduce the presuure you
    have to apply, or increase the modulation sensitivity which sounds like
    it is set to zero. I can't say which menu these are in as I do all my
    programming via Steinberg Soundworks. 
    
    P.S. these settings will probably needs apllying to all 4 partials.
    
    				Paul.
    
    			(that didn't help at all did it ?):-(
    to zero