Conference napalm::commusic_v1

Hi Ruben.  I too have similar electronic/computer music tastes.

Who is Ashra Temple?  An offshoot of TD?

Todd.

    By accident I just read about two albums by Klaus Schulze released
    on CD. That is "Irrlicht" A.V.I. CD 2001 and "Picture Music" A.V.I.
    CD 2003.  Irrlicht is recorded in 1972 and have the subtitle "Quadro-
    phoniche Symphonie fur Orchester und E-Machine". He used an organ,
    guitar and some percusion, and than a Polymoog. "Picture Music"
    is from 1973, and here he used ARP 2600, ARP Odyssey, EMS VCS 3
    and a Farfisa organ. Other albums are "Black Dance" and "Timewind"
    
    I have never heard any of these albums, so I have no clue of how
    it sounds.
    
    Source "Music Video Systemes" which is a french "MIDI-Home studio-
    Video" magazine.
    
    Svein.
    

    Hiya again both Todd and Svein!
    
    O.K. Let's talk about them. ASHRA TEMPLE is the name of the first
    group formed by K.Schulze and Manuel G�ttshing (the former keyboards,
    the latter guitarrist).
    
    ASHRA music (except for the latest records) is that kind of gliding,
    cyclonized, spacechoed, archoviewed music that appeals and invokes
    your inner part in the brain. NEW AGE OF EARTH is a sonic colorful
    glide over iced oceans, tangram landscapes, endless skies...
    
    L.S.D. helps a lot in understanding what I mean. 
    
    Klaus Schulze is a different sound. PICTURE MUSIC resembles that
    kind of solitude you feel when being alone surrounded of death seas
    (kind of BLACK DANCE).
    
    If someone of you has ever listened ENCORE by Tangerine Dream, I
    can say ASHRA resembles "Desert Dream". But, with one improvement:
    synthies made a sonic gliding curtain as a background from where
    a sweet dreamful guitar can be heared making you close your eyes
    and fly... TIMEWIND, by K. Schulze is but a bit like ASHRA, main
    difference being that the former keeps your feet on earth while
    the latter makes you float on the air.
    
    I love too much this man (Manuel) just because he is a kind of
    KOYAANISKAATSIE but from the audio view. What's more, Schulze (for
    whom I feel a great respect as a musician) has a Wagnerian background
    (like Tangerine Dream, whose pianos are very impressive) while ASHRA
    is just a product of the new technologies: "Don't believe in a heaven,
    I know how the Hell looks just looking around...I only want to fly
    gliding over imaginary landscapes where colors are sounds and sounds
    images and men are feelings you can embrace all together...".
    
    I agree with it: I WANNA FLY TOO!!!!

Love those colorful descriptions, Ruben.  Keep 'em coming...

>    your inner part in the brain. NEW AGE OF EARTH is a sonic colorful
>    glide over iced oceans, tangram landscapes, endless skies...
Is this New Age of Earth an ensemble name, or the name of an album by
Ashra?

Using your expressive descriptions, can you describe the band Stunim Obak?

Todd.

    NEW AGE OF EARTH is the title of one of ASHRA albums (as far as
    I remember, the first one without K. Schulze).
    
    Regarding Stunim Obak I must confess what I did get it was a C-60
    low quality tape. Well, how it sounds? Can you imagine Kafka crying
    deeply surrounded by faceless people riding on indifference cold
    sun rays? Even better: do you remember the first time you get alone
    in your room smoking a cigarrette hearing your mum working in the
    kitchen desperately in the distance? That's the sound of Stunim
    Obak. Logic *I think* they follow:
    
    We love our country, but hate the SYSTEM. We can't  tell it openly,
    but we can express it. We've got a cold ice-covered landscape with
    the fog in our eyes and a black angel playing n�car silver arp.
    We have synthies (do not ask me how we got them!) I we feel in the
    mood of talking to the people with our music and people want to
    hear something to do with Russia but not with the Soviet...well,
    we can't play rock'n'roll (no "babies", no "honey", no cars, no
    drugs, no sex in a dark cinema or in a parking lot, no negroes playing
    saxos, no electric guitars available, no "American-way-of-life"
    but planned economy, Party (the Party, omnipresent, overpowerful)
    and the look in the eyes of our friends...)... we could play jazz
    � l� European (Terje Rypdal, Garbarek), that kind of jazz that has
    nothing to do with South Carolina or hot sunny summers... but jazz
    is purely descriptive... no, we can only play in a "close-to-the-angry"
    basis:
    Imagine three German guys of autumm 1967 listening Pink Floyd in
    West Berlin. Imagine those three guys with some money acquiring
    synthies and drums, reading Keruac, Rimbaud, Leary, L.S.D., reading
    'Nam stories and talking about Free University... only one year
    later you will have a group named Tangerine Dream. But that is not
    the case for Stunim Obak. They only have fourth-hand western music
    magazines, some tapes got it thru West-->East Berlin guys and a
    deep love for their country (no social problems because only one
    opinion preveals). So they get together (do not ask me where, no
    dad's garage, no university forums, no taverns, no open parks...)
    and begin playing, drumming while dreaming, keynote inertia, waves
    of feeling made music, wandering thru hertz jungle, imaging a red
    sky with three green moons, black ice, floating inside a nebolous
    dawn, embracing twilight spots, suns melting over their heads, liquid
    colors falling down like cosmosky gliding rain, rivers of yellow
    irized tunes, flying over hologramic waterfalls, spotlights everywhere
    and then, slowly, quietly, silently, everything is fading away,
    disappearing, filling with gaseous dreams, voices in the distance,
    children laugths far away...and a piano-synthy telling you, kindly
    telling you, softly embracing you...that there is a place where
    sound reigns, color executes and air is a castle from where quarks
    throw away their tangram messages to your eyes.
    
    After 35 minutes of gliding-listening, the album finishes with echoed
    voices in russian (strongly resembling that of Ricochet in TD)...
    
    Well, I love it despite quality. It is the only thing I have got
    from "the other side" but still makes believe they feel sometimes
    like I do... sometimes.
    

    Please take this discussion to the MUSIC notes file.
    
    -jim, COMMUSIC moderator

    
    please dont.
    
    rjr
    

    Well, I suposse someone (the moderator) meant
    this-is-a-COMPUTER-technical-conference-so-please-do-not-try-to-describe-
    music-any-more!
    
    But I think I should have talked in another way. Let's try this
    one:
    
    As far as ASHRA is concerned, what is calls listener interest is
    the way he uses computer generated music. By aplying Xenakis
    mathematical and probabilistic techniques to quantify music parameters
    in terms of frecuency, duration, shift and scale c�dence, he gets
    a mathematic model using a Wahnfried-like computer built by Manor
    engineers (the guys working for Klaus Schulze).
    
    Main innovation is just that he uses Stockhausen discrete sound
    environment (just liten Stockhausen's "Momente", "Electronic Opera",
    "Mixture" and "Mikrophonie I and II") to create an acoustic shower
    directly in the ears of listeners. Finally, he assigns a color shade
    spectrum to all of the notes range (from 200 Hz up to 5.000 Hz).
    
    By assigning "cold colors" (blue, magenta, black, greys...) to spectrum
    ranging from 200 Hz up to 1.000 Hz and "hot colors" (tangram, red,
    yellow, orange...) to 1.000 Hz up to 5.000 Hz, he gets a VISUAL
    REPRESENTATION of how he sounds to the listener. Viewing this color
    acoustic environment projected on a wide screen, he can "paint"
    music using a "sound palette".
    
    So, if he want to express a fly-glide thru metamorphic rocks, for
    example, he is aware of three things:
    
    1. Tangram-like colors must be seen on the screen (i.e., tones below
       the  1.000 Hz range)
    
    2. A continuum of sound to be reached thru computer generation models
       (i.e., VCS synthies, electronic drums, reiteratives programed
    loops, etc.)
    
    3. A background environment (moog synthies and the like).      
    
    So, when I was describing his music in terms of lesedic (.L.S.D.)
    language, I was just describing technically the way he sounds.
    
    Example:
    
    A moog background synchronized with a VCS synthy glide and a computer
    controlled keyboard sequence on channel 1, mixed with a pure sequencer
    sweeping at the top of the spectrum on channel 2...
    
    can be described better in terms of lesedic language like this:
    
    Imagine a nebolous dawn with sounds you can embrace in green with
    your eyes being cyclonized by black crystal angels whispering at
    your heart while you glide over and iced endless metal ocean...
    
    Do you understand what I mean? I don't know a better way to describe
    electronic music. We here in Spain use this lesedic language quite
    a lot even at the engineering recording studios.
    
    The logic is quite simple: the title of an album, let's say, for
    example Tangerine Dream "Rubycon" with a blue cover, implies and
    invokes immediatly a glide over lesedic landscapes... and that's
    what the musicians tried to describe. How? Just look at the back
    of the cover to see the hardware used!!!! (VCS, Moog, Guitars, Grand
    E-Piano, Sequencers, CASIO TKS-300 mixer, Roland synthies, you name
    it!)
    
    So, just sorry for my poetry. Musicians are too poets.
    Even Einstein didn't wrote a relativistic theory: HE JUST WROTE
    A POEM ABOUT THE LIGHT!
    
    Rub�n.
    

    Ruben,
    
    	What is this 'Electronic Opera' by Stockhausen?  Do you
    perchance mean 'Hymnen'?  Or 'Song of the Youth' (can't remember
    how to spell the German, 'Gesang der Junglinges' or something
    like that)?
    							- Karl

    Partially right there, Karl! It is not "Hymen", but "Song of the
    Youth" was developed on a later stage based on this "Electronic
    Opera", not a formal composition but a perfomance recorded somewhere
    between 1967 and 1969 in the K�ln Recording Studio.
    
    Will check the proper editing house (a German-based one) and will
    post it here for reference. If anyone is interested in more details
    about the compositions from Stockhausen just named in .8 just let
    me know. Perhaps I am to broaden my rationale on the
    Stockhausen-Tangerine Dream-ASHRA connection, am I?
    
    If the moderator believe it interesting, I would to post a new note
    on Xenakis mathematical treatment of sounds, because it has been
    widely accepted that these models form a base upon which electronic
    music evolved. There was an interregno led by CAN and commanded
    by Czukay in which this model was applied to percussion.
    
    DAF (Deutsche-Amerikanische Freundschaft) used it to in some
    compositions of the early period. Stockhausen/Xenakis approaches
    are now recognized as self-explanatory to later electronic music
    development. John Cage, Steve Reich, Philip Glass, Kyro and Neuronium
    have many times recognized the have applied these theories to their
    computer generated music (note I have written "com-gen music" and
    not "synthy generated" one).
    
    So, within this context, visual techniques emerge as a new dimension
    added to the acoustic one. It is a great aid to designers and composers
    to use this technique (sound plus image!). I will explain it more
    deeply if you wish.

Late night, eh Tom.

Ruben, the link between TD's synthesized music and the subconscious mind 
is exactly why I view TD as pioneers in using electronic/synthesized music
for creating subconscious visual imagery.  This is the very reason that
they were interested in creating movie soundtracks.  Unfortunately, some
of their worst music was generated for soundtracks, simply because movies
are created for the sole purpose of making money, and in this respect TD
are fish out of water.  Their music is best left as an entirely auditory 
experience, in which the visual imagery is left up to the creativity of 
the mind...

Their use of color and timbres in their music (again, except for most of their
soundtracks) is very carefully chosen.  Most people who don't understand
that the intent of their music is to *communicate with* the mind, rather
than *dictate to* the mind, don't appreciate their use of electronic
instruments or their music.

RE: Jim
I feel that although this topic doesn't pertain directly to computer music,
that it is of interest to a large percentage of readers of this conference.
Comments?

Todd.

    I agree completely! Maybe they are now riding on another wave (they
    produce naw their own records, they tend to be less experiencers,
    and they take more care now to credit cards). But we were just talking
    about "pioneers", although there were some fellow noters notes above
    critizising this qualifier.
    Anyway, there was an earlier experiment undertaken by the Kosmische
    Kurrier cultural movement in West Germany somewhere between 1962
    and 1964. Tangerine Dream was member of that movement.
    
    For all computer generated music freaks, I must add that the experiment
    used lots of computer resources. The idea was that of representing
    in an oscilloscope the brain neuronal electric current properly
    amplified as to conclude on the behaviour of the man when subject
    to "sonic pressure" (in one word: they analized the brain response
    to sounds). At the same time, the "patient" was able to "draw" on
    a screen using a full-color wide-screen graphic generator. He was
    to draw whatever the sounds suggested to his brain. He was able
    to use too a small vocabulary set devised to serve as a verbal
    communicating tool ("water", "sun", "sea", "wind"... were one of
    the words he could use).
    
    A tape recording was implemented conducted by Czukay (a former disciple
    of Stockhausen who, lately, funded the group CAN). That experiment
    gave as a result the first sound/image mental table by which composers
    could get a clear idea of what computer sounds were creating in
    the brain in terms of "lesedic subliminal/oniric" passages.
    
    Jim, I suppose you will find this kind of experiment useful for
    those of you who use synthies and computer sound generators, because
    maybe you hate TD-like groups, perhaps CAN is unstandable for your
    ears and, why not? Stockhausen, Neuronium, ASHRA, Pascal, F�jermann
    and many others will never have room in your shelves, maybe, but
    you cannot close eyes to alternatives in psychomusic like these.
    
    Even Xenakis, the ultraorthodox promathematic musician understood
    this bridge towards *mental imagery thru sound*.
    
    I agree completely with Todd, TD made it possible to a great extent.
    But you are the moderator,Jim, and I will accept any suggestion
    you may have on moving away to other conferences.

    opinion: we *are* talking computer music here.
    

    its a refreshment to break from the discussions about
    which drum machine has the best midi implimentation, etc...
    
    ron
    

    
    	I would have to agree.  This is the Computer MUSIC file.  A
    discussion of music produced with the aid of computers would seem
    to be very much appropriate.  Although it is strangely rare in
    this conference.
    
    	Oh gee, I've forgotten the name of the person who started this
    note.  Sorry.  Well, whoever you are, could you slow down to 70
    so we could figure out what the heck you are talking about?
    
    	What I am familiar with (Stockhausen, Xenakis, Cage) does not
    always seem to connect with what I am unfamiliar with (ASHRA, etc.).
    How much of the information & terms come from you, and how much
    from other sources?
    
    	I think we could have a nice discussion if you would clue some
    of us in.
    
    							- KM_one
    

    .15 is right in that I have gone quite directly to hit the core
    of the subject: ART.
    
    I think I must organize ideas before going further. Assuming you
    all know Stockhausen first use of ring modulators and Xenakis theory
    of sounds mathematization, let's now fix the matter.
    
    I love the hardware in commusic: synthies, electronic percussion,
    midis, sequencer, keyboards, waveshapers, and all. I love software
    too: simulation packages, emulator controllers, soft drivers, and
    the like. And I love liveware: the artists, the creators of music.
    
    The synthy revolutionized the music concepts, as you all know. With
    them, the whole sound spectrum was available for the musicians to
    use. They had it all: theories on sound behaviour (Xenakis and the
    like), hardware (ring modulators, synthies, etc.) and ideas to express
    ('Nam war, students revolution in Germany 1967 and France 1968).
    
    They were not denying traditional instruments (guitars, drums, flutes,
    violins...) and they even used them intensively (no rock groups
    were using violins, for example). They were "creating" acoustic
    environments (Brian Eno, you see). This change came up with an emerging
    social group within the musician domain: sound engineers.
    
    Lately, another revolution came: the computer. The main conceptual
    difference between synthies and computers were that the former required
    Xenakis theories to be managed manually: hands-on-the-keyboard way
    of playing. Now, the computer could create the basic rythms, the
    "acoustic environment" or, better to say, it could control it.
    
    Waves shape in terms of attack, delay, frequency and other parameters
    were beautifully controlled by means of computers just complementing
    synthies sound generation. So, a step ahead: musician now was an
    artist using hi-tech devices to improve and reinforce his message
    to the world just as graphic generators and chemistry do for the
    painter.
    
    That music was simply called "electronic music". Mum's definition:
    electronic music is that kind of terrible sounds that makes me headache
    and get little Tom scared.
    
    But the synthy plus computer controlled music was called "cosmic
    music": it was less repetitive, more expressive and plastic. It
    invoked the mind imaging new worlds, frontiers, space, gliding,
    lesedic landscapes. Mum's definition of "cosmic music": cosmic music
    is that kind of sounds that, when listened to, you thought immediatly
    of UFOs and extraterrestrial beings.
    
    This was late 60s... And then, a guy discovered that taking a
    mysterious substance you could gain a fifth dimension. This substance
    was know long ago in the pharmaceutical scene: L.S.D.
    
    Lots of mumble followed this experience: colors you never imagined
    are displayed now in front of your eyes... new sounds emerge from
    the baffles... the sky gets liquid and fall over your head like
    a soft feelings shower... early 70s.
    
    And some guys thought: I know how to express my feelings with my
    synthies and computers, but, they are only feelings in-the-grey-
    shade... So they thought new mental experiences got thru L.S.D.
    could lead to a new music dimension. They called it then "psychedelic
    music". A step ahead over cosmic music, two steps ahead over electronic
    music... light-years ahead over Stockhausen world.
    
    A new language appeared: gliding, floating, galaxies, cosmosky,
    spacecho, timewind, tangram, azur... (Pink Floyd knows much of it).
    
    Mum's definition of psychedelic music: That kind of music that makes
    me get sleepy while my beloved son play it with a strange long distance
    look in his sparkling eyes. So, three different musical movement
    with basically the same elements. And then, many divergences appeared:
    discrete music, reiterative music, experimental music, planetary
    music, you know already the whole stuff of qualifiers.
    
    Late in the 80s, descendents are technomusic, discosound, the sound
    of the 80s, and all.
    
    So, I thought telling you something on Tangerine Dream was very
    illustrative because they passed thru all these stages (except the
    80s just named). That's the kind of music I love because it allows
    me to extract out of my very inside my feelings: frustation, hate,
    alienation, nihilism, hopes, dreams, love... you know: being myself
    when none gives you a chance to.
    
    So, I love commusic: hardware, software, recordings techniques,
    just because they let me be myself. Info I need I look for it in
    this conference. Feedback I require can be found here. Prices,
    contests, synthies... and feelings too.
    
    Maybe I am looking back to the 60s, when I was just born and I couldn't
    participate in the contracultural movement. Maybe that my country
    was ruled by a fanatic fascist for whom these sounds was a reflect
    of decadence... maybe my mum never gave me a chance to talk on me.
    Or perhaps is that I always loved dreaming of a fifth dimension,
    quarks in my brain, rivers of colors, feelings smelling, strange
    beautiful seascapes, metal oceans, liquid skies... perhaps I just
    simply enjoyed closing my eyes and gliding... I don' know what the
    hell it is that feeling I get when I put a record on my recordplayer,
    close my eyes and think of myself, quietly, softly left, very far
    away from my dark room... over clouds of endless beauty. But I need
    it and spend half my salary in hardware to pay me my trip to heaven.
    
    It's only then that I forgive my mum and thanks the world to be
    born.
    
    Rub�n.

    
    What *are* you trying to tell us, Tom?
    
    rjr
    

    .17, I THINK YOU MISUNDERSTOOD US!
    
    When I wrote "mum's definition" I was trying to put on my mum's
    mouth what she considered that music to be, NOT THE WAY I SEE IT!!!
    
    But perhaps language played that card for me, sorry. I was paraphrasing
    what a person without musical trends like my mum thought of the
    kind of music I love the most. See the difference?
    
    And, finally, I hope you don't meant I was a paranoic, because in
    that case I get sad realizing there are more people out there that
    wouldn't mind going to a listening with, say, my mother...
    
    About "little Tom", I never meant YOU (how the hell was I to know
    that was tour name??!!), I just chose a name by brainstorming; it
    doesn't make any difference writing "Rub�n", or "Charly", or whatever
    the hell you name.
    
    Tom: your "impressive" background qualifies you to express your
    particular opinion that I respect the most, but please: do not abjure
    of paranoics, they may be your most strong fans in the future.
    
    Rub�n.

    
    Now I get it. Strange, I took what you said just as you
    had to explain it a few notes later, (didnt get the reference
    to TOM either.)
    
    There *is* this obscure bug in NOTES and MAIL that occasionally
    clobbers your messages by removing all nuance, tone of voice,
    and other cues necessary for reconstructing the emPHAsis (my
    own EMphasis) of the note. Thus the interpretation can occasionally
    get meffed up.
    
    I'm sure we'll all be glad when they find it.
    
    ron
        

     This, now this, is a decent note about computer music. 600+
    notes and finally something relevant. I don't understand a word
    of it, but that's my problem. Keep it here.
    
    -John