Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Ah you mean that ANALOG sound....how bout that.
    
    The only gripe about analog could be the tuning
    drift problem, which the S.Jup. has turned into
    a 'dont-care' situation with it's tune button.
    A Midi funtion even.
    
    You'll find that ALL synths with "low pass filters" (VCF's )
    use ANALOG filters, and yet a DCO machine sounds different
    than a VCO machine.    It must be the oscillator.

    Methinks Len is even now starting to save next weeks allowance    
    for a 'good old' Oberheim. Matrix 12? Great idea, wouldnt
    the EXPANDER do?
    
    Big bucks tho.
    
    [pant,slobber,drool]
    

    The Super Juper's tuning stabilizes after it's warmed up for about
    half an hour, and the tune button and tune request MIDI message
    make even that palatable, as you point out.  Sure do like that thing!
    
    Where'd I get the what?  The $?  Gave up a lot of little things!
    
    Yeah, an Xpander would set me back about what I've already got
    "invested" in my two Supers (Jupiter and JX).
    
    I'd like to put a 'scope on these boxes' outputs and see if there's
    some obvious difference in the waveforms that would account for
    the differences in sound.
    
    len (temporarily pauperized).
    

    
    The major difference I see is that DCO's are phase-locked
    across all the voices. Even if you detune some, you still
    get a very 'synchronized' sounding beating. And, every note
    is in tune. VCOs seem to 'shift' around a bit (no pun)
     depending where you are on the kbd, what the initial freq. is,
    the phase of the moon,if you stare at it too long...things 
    like that. They are like cats. (Huh?)

    But I'm surprised that the sound is different with only
    one oscillator. It's FFT time!
    
    my scope just frotzed, otherwise....
    
    rr
    

    Spent most of the weekend getting to know the JX, and I like it
    more and more.  It's enough like the Super Jupiter to make the
    differences confusing, but it's slowly revealing its secrets and
    the potential I sensed is really there.  My first exercises were
    to get a good harpsichord (sorry, I'm infatuated with the sound
    of harpsichords); I got two.  Then I did a harp, and I think this
    one sounds better than my tweaked Super Jupiter harp.  I took some
    of the more golly gee whiz effects off some of the more purely
    "synthetic" sounds, and now have some useful synth patches.
    
    The JX seems less "user friendly" than the MKS-80; twice I hung
    it up to the point where I had to power it down and up to get it
    unconfused.  I don't know what I did to confuse it.
    
    The architecture has some curiosities - e.g., the way you get PWM
    is to pitch modulate DCO2 while syncing DCO1 to it; this ends up
    pulse width modulating DCO1.  The manual is not terribly helpful
    (i.e., not *at all* helpful) in explaining how this works.  I have
    to admit to a lot more "try it and see what happens" kind of
    programming the JX than the MKS-80, which I sort of understand.
    The velocity and aftertouch features are nice, but I still resent
    having to give up half the tone memory space for presets.
    
    Also the noise doesn't seem to be as broad spectrum as the MKS-80's
    noise generators, specifically, it has less low frequency content.
    The MKS-80 is capable of making gorgeous thunder and explosion type
    effects;  I'm not sure I can make the JX jump through the same hoops.
    
    The chorus is a little overmuch sometimes, but it seems less necessary
    than on the MKS-80 (!); in this case, the stack'em up and detune'em
    provisions of the JX work "better" than the Super Jupiter's.
    
    Note that only the oscillators on the JX are digital; everything
    else (filters, lfos, vcas) are analog.  Having gotten past the presets,
    the JX is starting to sound more like the MKS-80; i.e., big, fat,
    round sounds.  An Oberheim seems a little less necessary this morning. 

    More observations to come.
    
    len.
    

    Len,
    
    I've had my eye on the JX-10 for a while, I sure like the aftertouch,
    which lends some expressivness to the synth that acoustic instruments
    have always had.  It is one of the things that I always wanted in
    a  keyboard.  Until recently I thought the 10 had analog voices, I prefer
    the sound quality of analog.
    
      A few questions, now that you have one:
    
    1. Would you recommend this as my only synth (for a while)?  
    (I intend to eliminate my non-midi keys) 
      
    2. Would this be my best choice for a midi keyboard to control
    future rack units.  I'm concerned with the midi implementation
    and versatility, and really want a good velocity and aftertouch
    keyboard.  (also, I prefer un-weighted keys)
                            
    3. what other synths have Aftertouch?  Should I wait for a future
    keyboard to come out?
              
    4. You said the presets were a little lame, have you been able to
    invent great sounds easily?
    
    By the way, I might add that programability is important to me; 
    a flexible great sounding sampler might be a possibility (perhaps
    an emax) but an Amiga is within my scheme of things, so I may wait
    to see what developes for it in the way of sampling first.
           
    Please pardon all these dum questions; thanks in advance.
                                                             
    Fredric Certo 	DVINCI::CERTO
                              

    1. Could it be your only synth - yes, for sure.  With TWO JX-8Ps
    packaged in the same box and a 76 key keyboard, this synth has a
    lot of function.  You can use it as two synths with split keyboard
    (you can overlap the splits so you get low, low+high, and high);
    you can use it as a 6 voice per timbre two-timbred synth, responding
    on ANY two midi channels (not just n and n+1).  You can use it as
    two monophonic synths (so it will do the right thing with a guitar
    controller).  You can use it as a 3 voice 8 oscillator per voice
    synth (by running it in dual/unison mode).  And, of course, you
    can use it a 6 voice 4 oscillator per voice or 12 voice 2 oscillator
    per voice synth.  It can cross fade (by velocity) between two two-
    oscillator voices, or velocity select either of two two-oscillator
    voices.  In addition it can send patch changes and some other midi
    commands on two other channels besides the two main channels selected.
    As I said, a LOT of function.
    
    2. Could it be your master - as the above implies, for sure.  The
    keys are unweighted, the velocity and aftertouch feel real nice.

    3. Many other synths have aftertouch.  I don't have a list handy.
    
    4. I have been able to get great sounds out of it fairly quickly,
    but I am still learning the machine.  Last month's Keyboard (with
    Depeche Mode on the cover) is mandatory for its article on programming
    the JXs.  This article helps, but there are still mysteries to be
    fathomed.  It's not as easy as a Super Jupiter to program, but it's
    MUCH easier than any DX.  So, yes, it's capable of great sounds,
    but expect to put in a little effort and cope with some frustration;
    I don't know if the optional cartridges contain anything great,
    but I'm probably going to get one just to study what's in one.
    There are two available, for $90 each, from Roland.
    
    The JX-10's oscillators are DCOs, but the filter and VCA are analog!
    You can make it sound analog or digital depending on how you program
    it.  This is potentially a great/classic machine, but it's going
    to take some time getting to know it inside out.
    
    len.
    

    
    Ok len. I want one for each hand.
    
    How much, tho?
    
    ron
    

    Umm, I think you can get one (without the PG-800 knobs and sliders
    programmer) for about $2200 (plus tax).  The programmer will run
    about another $250.
    
    len.
    

    Len,
    
    Thanks for answering my questions, I can see that there's a lot
    more under the skins than initially meets the eye, especially
    in the voice organization and midi implementation!
                                                      
    I'm going to spend time at Wurlitzer's getting to know the technical
    side of it in more depth, study the manual, etc.
    
    Fredric Certo  	DVINCI::CERTO
    

    Spent more time playing with the JX at Wurlitzer's! 
    
    I found the aftertouch to be less responsive than last time I was
    there.  Is there a way to vary the *sensitivity* of the aftertouch,
    and for that matter, the velocity?  If so, how is it done?
                                      
    The next thing we need, besides velocity and aftertouch controlling
    dynamics and modulation or whatever, is to have the keys able to
    'bend' right or left for pitch bend (simultaneous with the other
    expressive controls)
                                                       
    Fredric	DVINCI::CERTO
    
    I think I need to read the manual.

    There are three parameters associated with patches that control
    aftertouch effects - Vibrato (controls DCO modulation by LFO),
    Brightness (controls VCF level) and Volume (controls VCA level).
    There are about a half dozen or so tone parameters that control
    velocity sensitivity - each is a 4 position switch, with values
    OFF, and three different curves (linear, concave upward but with
    lower average slope than linear, and concave upward with approximately
    linear average slope; the two concave upward curves differ in the
    overal dynamic range and "flatness" at the low end).  These switches
    can be applied to a variety of tone generation parameters where
    veclocity sensitivity makes sense (each envelope, VCF level, etc.).
    
    Recall that "patch" means one or two "tones" combined with keyboard
    mode (split, dual, single tone), assignment modes (unison, poly),
    semitone offsets, detunes, etc.  A tone is a two oscillator sound
    configuration.

    len.
    

    re .10
    
    I remember reading an article about stuff Robert Moog was working
    on a while back (2 years?).  It may have been in `Studio Sound'.
    He talked about a keyboard controller (not necessarily in a Midi
    one) in which you could both rock keys left and right, and slide
    them in and out (like drawbars on an organ).  In the issue of Keyboard
    with Jonathan Cain on the cover there is an article about Wendy
    Carlos, and there is a diagram of her design for a controller, although
    I don't remember specifics.
    
    I realize this has nothing to do with the JX, but the mention of
    this kind of thing in a previous reply jogged my memory.  I will
    repost this in either a new topic or as a reply to an appropriate
    existing one if people care to continue this line (i.e. I don't
    feel like searching for the appropriate place right now :-)
    
    Richard

Along the same lines as .12, in the June '86 issue of BYTE, page 168 talks a
little about the Key Concepts Notebender Keyboard "with two axes of touch
sensitivity".  The keys slide in and out as well as up and down to control
two independent parameters independently on each key.  There's a photo of it.

    The JX-10 suffers from a major omission as a master controller -
    there's no way to transpose the keyboard.  I can't believe they
    left this out.  I can transpose voices within the JX, using the
    patch upper/lower tone transpose feature, but the keyboard always
    sends (out the MIDI port) exactly what key you strike.
    
    Another annoyance is the binding of the chorus parameter to tones
    rather than to patches.  Thus if you want to use chorused and
    unchorused versions of the same basic tone in different patches,
    you have to set aside two tones just to turn on the chorus in one
    of them.  This really should have been a patch parameter.
    
    In the same vein, it is also annoying that the PG-800 programmer
    doesn't give you access to the patch parameters (as does the MPG-80
    Super Jupiter Programmer).  You have to edit patch parameters using
    the cumbersome "select by number" method (either from the numeric
    keypad or via the alpha dial).  And despite the presence of parameter
    and value buttons to select the role of the alpha dial, these buttons
    do not affect the interpretation of the numeric keypad, which is
    always applied only to the parameter number and cannot be used to
    set its value.  This is in marked contrast to the MC500's consistent
    treatment of both the numeric keypad and alpha dial, which can be
    used interchangeably.  Working with both the MC500 and the JX-10
    can be an exercise in frustration because the user interface
    conventions do not apply consistently to both.  I wish Roland's
    engineers would talk (had talked?) more to one another.
    
    And boy am I unhappy about giving up 50 tone slots to their damn
    presets.  There's just no excuse for a synthesizer in this price
    class having nonwriteable presets.
    
    I'm beginning to wonder if I shouldn't have picked up an ESQ-1 instead
    for about half the price.  The JX-10 has a lot going for it but
    there are too many little things they just didn't think about.  And I'm
    irked that the MKS-70 (rack mounted JX-10) allows MIDI modification
    of tone parameters, while the keyboarded JX-10 doesn't.
                                 
    len.
    

    Len - I think you mentioned this once B4 and I missed it..
    
    What's the difference tone and patch?
    
    Edd

    I sort of hinted at it in .11.
    
    A tone is a two oscillator sound generation configuration.  It's
    what most synths call a patch.  It's all the parameters like
    DCO range, DCO detune, DCO waveform, DCO level, ADSR parameters,
    VCF parameters, LFP parameters, etc.  The JX-10 allows you to define
    50 of these onboard, 50 more in an M64C cartridge, and predefines another
    50 onboard.                 
    
    A patch is a configuration of 1 or 2 tones, plus keyboard assignments,
    halftone offsets (bet you didn't know it could print! ;^)), split
    points, etc..  The two tones involved are referred to as the upper
    and lower sections (old Jupiter terminology).  You can stack the
    upper and lower sections (and they can be assigned the same tone;
    in dual mode you now have a 6 voice 4 oscillator per voice synth)
    in "Dual" mode, or you can split the keyboard with the lower section
    assigned to the lower part of the keyboard and the upper assigned
    to the upper, with as much overlap as you want (the overlapped region
    is effectively in dual mode), or you can assign just one tone to
    the whole keyboard (either the upper tone or lower tone, this is
    actually two modes) called "Whole".  In Dual mode you can detune
    one section relative to the other.  Independent of the keyboard
    mode, you can also specify the voice assignment mode - two polyphonic
    modes (they differ in how they affect portamento (incidentally,
    the JX is a constant rate portamento machine, not constant time)),
    two unison modes (that double the number of tone modules assigned
    to a key, one of the modes doing the doubling an octave lower) that
    gives you a 6 voice 4 oscillator per voice synth, or in Dual mode
    a 3 voice 8 oscillator per voice synth.  There are also velocity
    based tone selection (below some threshold you get the lower section
    tone, above it you get the upper) or velocity cross fade (higher
    velocities fade in the upper section while fading out the lower
    section).
    
    Patch parameters also control aftertouch (though velocity effects
    are controlled by tone parameters) effects, portamento, upper/lower
    balance, overall volume, MIDI channels (independent for lower and
    upper sections, but receive and transmit are the same) etc..
    
    len.
    
    

	Just got off the phone w/ a Roland service person...

	JX-10's are to be discontinued in the very near future.  Expect
drastic cut prices.  Also S-10's and perhaps the MKS-70 (JX10 rack-mount).

	I asked about the demise of analog and he generally affirmed  that
Roland is leaving it behind.  He seemed to think it was not so much a cost
decision as it was a desire of the company to establish its own proprietory
sound (which, I guess, will be LA).

	Sigh.

	Dan

    Long Live Analog!
    
    I'll *never* give up my Super Jupiter or Super JX.
    
    len.
    

    
    Re: .17
    
    Hey Dan, keep me posted....any fire sales on Alpha Junos yet???
    
    

RE < Note 544.19 by AQUA::ROST "Obedience to the law guarantees freedom" >
    
>    Hey Dan, keep me posted....any fire sales on Alpha Junos yet???

	I forgot to ask about the juno line.    
    
	Dan

    Re: <various>
    
    I'll never, ever, give up my alpha-Juno 2.
    					- HBM

	Did I hear some time back that the JX10 can't have different TX and RX
channels?

	It *does* do "LOCAL OFF", right?

	Can "Local Off" be set up on different patches or is it global?

	How about SysEx?  Can global parameters be altered via SysEx?

	Dan (who may replace his master keyboard in the near future)

    Local off is a patch MIDI parameter (I think).
    
    It *is* possible to set up the JX to transmit and receive on different
    channels, but the way you do it is a bit baroque, and the manual
    is considerably obscure on this point.  I believe I once figured
    out how to do it, with the help of some consulting from Roland,
    and it's written down in my manual, but it's not the sort of thing
    one routinely remembers.  It involves patch MIDI parameters again.
    It can do stuff like send a differnet program change command on
    both the lower and upper sections automatically when a patch is
    selected (at least from the keyboard, don't know about program changes
    via the MIDI IN).  I'll get the details and post them here tomorrow or
    the next day.
    
    I believe the only SysEx support the JX has is for bulk dumps. Unlike
    the JX-10-in-a-box (the MKS-70), you can't use SysEx to manipulate
    JX-10 parameters (I think).  Again, I'll check the MIDI interface
    spec for the JX and get back with details.
    
    len.
    

RE < Note 544.23 by DRUMS::FEHSKENS >

	I got impatient (again) and asked a friend who has a JX10 if I could 
borrow his manual.  I've got it here with me now.  (Actually, its not just
impatience, I like to be able to look things up as I think of them, too).

	Yes, it appears that SysEx is only for dumps.  Bummer.  I wish everyone
put as much into their synths as Yamaha does when it comes to SysEx.

	Still, it does a lot as a keyboard controller, allowing a number of 
things to be sent out the MIDI ports when changing a Patch memory (i.e. volume, 
program change, etc.).

	I'm still interested in how it can have a different MIDI channel on 
xmit and receive.

	Dan

>diff channel on send/receive

    Are you asking "if" or "how"?  Yes, it can, but I forget how right now.
    I set one up to do this very thing in a store a while back. However,
    the unit was experiencing *weird* problems, so I may have been fooled
    by a "non-feature". 

    Another interesting thing about the JX - each of the two tone "banks"
    can receive on different MIDI channels, so it's possible to use the
    thing as a bitimbral sound source.  It's easy to get spoiled by using
    two tones per patch, though. 

    And like I said, I hate the touch.  Ugh.

-b

    The way I recall it, in amongst the MIDI patch parameters are some
    receive (or is it transmit) channel parameters.   I think you have
    to set some other parameter to some special value to enable this.
    
    These should really be global parameters rather than patch parameters,
    but Roland had to screw up the JX in some bizarre way or it wouldn't
    really be a Roland...
    
    I for one don't understand why synth designers don't just treat the
    keyboard and SGUs as separate units packaged in the same box, and then
    provide some simple features to make the two of them track one another,
    while also making it straightforwardly possible to treat them
    as two completely independent parts.
    
    len.
    

    Here's the story:
    
    	patch parameter 67: key mode
    
    	   normally OFF, but any other value (UPPER, LOWER, SPLIT, LAYER)
    	   determines the mode the keyboard sends in as if a separate
    	   unit.  Transmit channels are determined by patch parameters 61
    	   and 62.
    
    	patch parameters 61 and 62: upper and lower MIDI channels
           
    	   Normally OFF, but any other value (1 ... 16) specifies the
           channel(s) the keyboard sends program change and MIDI volume
    	   (CC 7) commands on when a patch change is invoked on the JX.
    	   These commands are specified by patch parameters 63, 64,
    	   65 and 66.  If patch parameter 67 is not OFF, determines the
    	   channels for transmission of "keyboard information" (i.e.,
    	   NOTE ON, channel pressure)
    
    	MIDI function parameters 23 and 33: Local On/Off
    
    	   Seperately specifies local on/off for the lower and upper
    	   sections.
                   
    Note that the MIDI function parameters are "global", independent
    of any specific patch.  The patch parameters, however, are patch
    specific.  I suppose Roland was trying to provide somthing akin
    to a "performance" capability, but I think it's a bizarre
    implementation.  It's not clear to me yet how all these parameters
    interact with one another.
    
    len.
    

	Thanks, Len.  That helps.

	Dan

    From USENET, some  user's groups for Roland analog synths:
    
From: [email protected] (Mark Turner)
Subject: Roland Analog Users Groups
Date: 27 Aug 90 16:23:42 GMT
 
Okay you analog fiends, here's two more user groups for lovers of these
old Roland toys:
 
    MKS-80 "Super Jupiter"
 
    MKS-70, JX-10, JX-8T
 
Both groups are run by Bill Strehl.  Write to him at:
 
                       P.O. Box 4866
                       Washington DC, 20008-0006
 
or you can call at 202-797-8338.
 
He does not have net access, so please contact him directly.

    I think I asked this somewhere else, but I can't remember where now
    (much less when). 
    
    Anyone have any pointers as to a decent source for MKS70 patches?  Now
    that I've started playing seriously again, I've been going thru the
    factory patches, and agree completely with Len's assessment as posted
    thruout this note string - they stink.  I've also punched in several
    from Keyboard and from RUG magazines, most of which are also lame (I
    can't believe they paid someone $50 for these!).
    
    I've taken to writing some of my own, and (without sounding too
    arrogant) think they're a heckuva lot better than any of the factory
    /rag patches, but I don't have the time to sit down and punch in stuff
    like I used to, so ... I'm looking for someone who's got some that
    they're willing to share.  I'm willing to return the favor, although I
    don't have a large number of them.
    
    I would think that Roland would also offer alternate patches (hopefully
    in SYSEX bulk format!), but I've been unable to find out.  Any pointers
    there?  Thanks.
    
+b

    There are JX-10 alternate patch cartridges available from Roland, but
    they are not much better than the factory patches; some are ok, many
    are useless, most not much more than a place to start from.  I asked
    Roland about MRB-500 disk availability (as the M-64C cartridges are
    about $80 apiece, empty or full), and they said they would not
    distribute patches in MRB-500 format because they feared wholesale
    copying.  I personally think this is a lame excuse, because you can't
    duplicate MRB-500 disks without the MRB-500 master disk, and you can
    steal patches for transmission to some other medium from a cartridge
    more easily than from an MRB-500 disk. The real reason must be that
    disks cost about $3 while cartridges cost $80, and disks last more or
    less forever while a cartridge's lithium battery goes bye-bye after
    about 5 years.
    
    There are some aftermarket JX-10 patches advertised in the back pages
    of Keyboard and Electronic Musician, but I haven't tried any of them.
    
    I do have a number of homebrew and modified patches that I have found
    useful for my own work.  Let's talk "offline".
    
    len.
     

    
    Well, poor Roland...worried about patch piracy, a drop in the bucket
    seeing as they probably don't sell whole truckloads of JX-10 carts
    anyway.   Third party patch houses have to deal with that problem, and
    to them it can be life or death, as patches are their sole product!
    
    Looking through the third paty ads, it doesn't seem like the JX-10 got
    a lot of support, everyone was busy cranking out DX7 patches instead. 
    Developers always jump on the "hot" machines, and they tend to prefer
    machines that can load patches by tape or disk (lower overhead).  Now 
    that the JX has been discontinued, there's even less available.  
    
    Do you have the January 89 KEYBOARD?  It had a pretty good directory
    listing of third party patches and sample disks.  I can look into it
    for JX patch suppliers.   
    
    							Brian

    
    The following patch sources for the JX8 and JX10 were listed in the
    January 1989 KEYBOARD directory:
    
    Kid Nepro 
    180 Bethel Loop, Brooklyn, NY 11239-1719  (718) 642-7802
    
    40 patches, data sheets
    
    Livewire
    Box 561, Oceanport, NJ 07757  (201) 229-2309
    
    32 patches, data sheets (demo tape available)
    
    Music Design
    Box 28001, Crystal, MN 55428
    
    200 patches, data sheets
    
    Roland
    
    32 patch cartridges, 3 volumes
    
    Sylvan Sound Studio
    Box 563, Keego Harbor, MI 48320
    
    32 patch RAM cart, 64 patch RAM cart, data sheets with demo tape
    
    Still Voice Audio
    3041 Sumter Ave.,  St. Louis Park, MN 55426 (612) 927-0451
    
    your 64 patch RAM cart filled
    
    
    These editor/librarians wewre listed:
    
    Caged Artist (Dr. T)
    220 Boylston St., Chestnut Hill, MA 02167 (617) 244-6954
    
    for Apple II or C64/128
    
    Opcode
    1024 Hamilton Ct., Menlo Park, CA 94025 (415) 321-9877
    
    for Mac, librarian only
    
    Passport
    625 Miramontes St., Half Moon Bay, CA 94019 (415) 726-0280
    
    for IBM, Apple II, C64/128, either ed/lib or lib only
    
    Voyetra
    333 Fifth Ave., Pelham, NY 10803 (914) 738 4500
    
    for IBM

    Yeah, I've got the Keyboard, and have looked in there already (but
    thanks for the posting anyway 8-).  It's too bad that they didn't give
    this thing more support, because it's really a nice sounding unit.
    
+b