Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Hi there,
    
    	I looked at the same keyboards, and chose the Oberheim. I will
    not buy a currently made sound generator with only a numeric readout
    (I prefer alphas). Also I thought the Ob sound generator was more
    flexible (not quite as hardwired).
    
    	As it is getting late and my vanpool is leaving, let me leave
    you with a thought.  You can buy a rack-mount Matrix-6, and you
    can also buy a rack-mount Roland Jx-10 (which is like 2 jx-8's).
    Therefore if you like the sound of these two you could choose one
    now and buy the other one later sans keyboard!  
    
    	Sorry I can't write more right now, but good luck. There is
    a note I wrote a while back comparing the Oberheim and the Roland
    somewhere in this file.
    
    	- Rick
    

    
    	DON'T BUY ANYTHING UNTIL YOU'VE TRIED ENSONICQ'S ESQ-1.
    
    	Dan

    
    Oberheim is flexible. JX is a bit less so (but so what?)
    I consider the rackmount EX8000 as an additional (not first)
    voice.
    
    You have enough $$$ to be in the right area. I found (still
    find) it very difficult to settle down on ONE keyboard. You
    might have openned a pandora's box.
 
    Note that the ESQ-1 uses a novel sound generation scheme, not
    the typical VCO/DCO VCF VCA line. So what? So does the very
    successful DX7, which is also in your price range:
    
    You MUST shop around. The prices vary from store to store, and     
    you can match 2 stores 'against' each other in a price war, if
    you're clever. Get a feel for the 'no overhead' prices by calling
    some of the mail order houses in Keyboard. They are approximately
    dealer cost + 20%. Some folks have good luck ordering from them.
    
   

    Another player in my group just got an ESQ-1. I strongly suggest
    that you check this out before you buy anything in the $1500 range.
    Very flexible for sound designing, good MIDI implementation, nice
    keyboard and a sequencer that's as good (or better) than some of
    the computer based sequencers I've seen. You may have to wait a
    bit to get one as it's still in the back order stage, but well worth
    it.
    
    Rob

    I just bought a Matrix-6R last week and was quite impressed with
    it.  I like the "analog" synth sound, and with Matrix Modulation
    you can acheive just about any kind of effect you might want, without
    using patch cords.
    
    Apart from sound flexibility, I was quite impressed with the midi
    implementation.  Key features:
    
     - The six voices can be split  2/4.  Two voices play one sound,
       four play another.  They can be played via different midi channels
       or on the same midi channel at different note ranges (actually
       they cheat, you have to set the machine to OMNI mode)
    
    -  Patch mapping - an indirect lookup table can be created such
       that selecting patch "x" via midi will actually select internal
       patch "y".  This is extremely useful, since patch one on your
       DX7 (or whatever) probably will not go with patch on on the Matrix
       6.  There are fifty or so patch table entries.
    
    -  Local control off - This does me almost no good on a rack mount
       synth, so I assume its a leftover from the Matrix 6 architecture.
       I assume, however that the matrix 6 allows you to control a slave
       synth from the keyboard, while another master (sequencer etc.)
       plays the Matrix 6 voices. 
    
    -  Velocity and aftertouch sensitivity, which in the patches can
       modulate just about anything.
    
    -  The list goes on but I have to get back to work.
    
    What I'm getting at is that Matrix 6 midi implementation is very
    flexible and would make a very nice main keyboard controller for a
    large midi system, should you choose to expand.  This coupled with
    the flexibility of voice creation, and the fact that the machine
    is multitimbral (making it sound like two synths rather than one,
    for certain applications, such as synth-bass/strings etc), I would
    recommend it highly as a first purchase (first midi purchase, that
    is).
    
    I know nothing about the other two synths.  Currently I have a DX7
    and JUNO 106, both of which sound great but both of which leave
    a lot to be desired as keyboard controllers, which frustrates me
    more and more as I get more equipment.
    
    Guido Simone  (newcomer to this notes file)

The only problem I see with the Matrix-6 is that there are only 6 voices
versus 16 on the DX7.  This becomes a problem with when using a patch 
that sustains for a relatively long amount of time (ie: piano with sustain
pedal depressed).  When a 3-note chord is played simultaneously with each 
hand (ie: 6-note chord) and allowed to ring, touching any key will then
kill one of the previous voices to free up that voice for the new note.
This causes a nasty "chopping" effect.

I have a DX100 and have that same problem even with 8 voices...however,
depending on your application it may not mean that much to you.

If you really want to learn about analog synthesis, I would consider
the Oberheim or the Roland.  These machines are both digitally controled
analog machines, and give a good insight into how the world of affordable
electronic music synthesis actually started.

You may also want to check out the new Casio CZ-1.  It is in your price
range.

I second the notion of checking out the mail order prices.  You can save
up to 25% by going mail order...

Todd.

    If I may be so bold:
    
   What you may be getting from this is that many of us
    feel that:
    
    1.  No one kbd will fill all your needs or desires.
    2.  It's very hard to choose one based on the 
        preset factory sounds or cursory demo. These
       beasts are so complicated that you practically
       have to buy one to find out it's strengths and
       weaknesses. Then it's too late (?). Take your time.
        
    Since you play keys, whatever you do, get something
    touch sensitive! Also todd's note about the number of
    voices is (to me) a very important consideration.
    
    Ron
    
            

    Since both the two have been brought up, lemme ask a couple questions
    (oh, no!  Here he goes again ...). 
    
    Is the keyboard in the Matrix smart enough to send more notes than it
    can trigger - ie, if I play a 10 note chord and am MIDI'd to my TX7s,
    will I get a 6 note chord from the Matrix and 2 10 note chord from the
    TXs? 
    
    Hey, Len!  Did you ever get your JX10?  What do they go for (list and
    best you've seen) and how long do you have to wait? 

8^)

    I get my JX-10 in two weeks, when I finish paying for it.  I got
    mine for essentially $2K, but the price has gone up considerably
    recently (something about the dollar/yen ratio), and new Roland
    gear is almost universally not discounted.  I would expect to pay
    about $2400 now.  The programmer (knobs and sliders) is another
    $250.
    
    len.
     

    Oops, forgot about the wait.  There are a few around, mine is in
    stock, but I think it's the only one left at Wurlitzer's in Framingham.
    I don't know if any of their other stores have any, nor do I know
    anything about its availability at other dealers.
    
    len.
    

THANKS for the input so far!  

RE: 1
Two reasons I am leaning toward the Oberheim is the flexibility of the sound
generator and the display.  Creating my own wave was not offered in the other
machines, and what I consider a plus re: flexible.  I consider the alpha
display a nice cosmetic feature; yes it is a data display but it doesn't
contribute toward the sound.  One concern I had was the control panel, for the
most part it is a numerical keypad, and seems just a tad bit difficult to
program/edit.  Again this is cosmetic.

I did find the note that you were referring to, it is note 328.8.  What you
write is a good argument.  I have pretty much ruled out the Korg.  I just
don't hear the richness of the sound in the Korg that I hear in the Ob and
the JX(This was when playing the Pipe organ patches).

RE:.2,.4
I'll take a look at it, the ESQ-1.  Compare it's sound and features to the Ob.

RE:.3
My reasoning behind flexibility is that this may be the only board that I will
own.  Sure I could catch the 'bug', or decide that apartment life is the way
to go (to hell with buying a house :-).  Anyway, one flexible board should keep
me quiet, or noisy as the case may be, for a while.  I'm shopping around taking
my time.  Tried to get the latest Keyboard mag at E.U.W., but they are out of
them.

RE:.5
You add more to the flexibility column.  I do have a question regarding MIDI
implementation.  On the one-sheet brochure it states 'Voice spillover and a
flexible MIDI implementation make the Matrix-6 an essential part of any MIDI
system.'  Skipping over the marketing bull, what is meant by 'a flexible
MIDI implementation'?  Is it full MIDI with Ob additions? ...or a subset?

RE:.6
Thanks for the explaination of the voices, I didn't understand the term.
Last night I went to E.U.W., which didn't have the Ob but did have the JX-10,
and experimented on an AWIA, played ten notes sequentially and did hear the
drops.  I haven't decided how important this is to me.  Some more playing
around will tell.  Right now I am not too concerned about it but will
experiment some more.  I'll have to look around for a CZ-1.

Is there a note regarding mail-order places?  Good ones/Bad ones?  The
more I save the better.  If I could save enough it would allow me to get
a simple MIDI compatable keyboard and the Matrix-6r

RE:.7
Please be bold!  re-1) I understand that, I'm just looking for one that will
fill my current 'wants' and flexible enough to maybe fill some of the unknown
future wants. re-2) I'm doing my best with the 'beasts', but I have to realize
that I can't know the machine inside and out before I buy it, so I do my best.


If this reply brings out more questions, or presents my lack of knowledge in
this field your opinions/questions would be greatly appreciated, thanks...

Dan
ISWISS::ARVIDSON

    
    We are talking substantial discounts via mail order.
    
    Refer to 529 for list of dealers in same. Also another
    note reply on mail order "risks".

    Since you're a "hammond man", (I remember gigging with a
    C-3 for 4 years during/past college...yes all 429 pounds
    including the bench and no midi even...), you might consider
    the combo of a fair-priced midi controller (which tends
    to offer the best kbd and midi features with a rack mount
    'something', which tends to offer the best voicing features.
    It also expands nicely. (You *will* want more gear.Period.)
    Might run above $1500, but then, by the time you have enough
    info to make a good decision, you'll have more $$$.

	Check it out.
    
    Ron
        

   > (You *will* want more gear.Period.)


I have  to  agree with Ron on this point. This isn't necessarily a universal
law, but it's true within the limits of experimental error in our local
region of space-time.

If you are ever going to be happy with what you've got, why aren't you
happy with what you've got RIGHT NOW?

Best thing to do is plan for it.

Don.

>If you are ever going to be happy with what you've got, why aren't you
>happy with what you've got RIGHT NOW?

Welp...The Hammond and Leslie are my fathers', who lives in CT USA(I live in
MA USA), I only 'borrowed' it while I lived at home.  I'd like to get back
to key-twinkling.

RE: Planning for more gear
What would y'all recommend regarding a combo?  At LaSalle I played with a
Yamaha KX88 or some such animal connected with a Matrix-6r.  88 Keys would
be nice.  What are some good MIDI compatable keyboards price-wise?

Dan

Welp, answering my own questions by doing some traveling...

The KX88 goes for ~1500, its sister, the KX76 for ~1000!  Lot's a bucks!
Looks like 5 octaves, 6 voices and spillover on the Ob for me!

Dan

BTW: It was mentioned that the Roland JX-10 will be available in rack-mount
	soon, no date, just soon.

    One place you might want to try is the Music Workshop on Daniel
    Webster Highway in Nashua. It's right across the street from Daddy's
    in Nashua. They have a synthesizer made by Kuwai that they're letting
    go at a bargain right now, because they're overstocked. It goes
    for $1100, but they're selling 'em for $995. It's got some very
    nice, realistic sounds (the acoustic piano sound was pretty
    impressive), and it's fairly easy to program. Budget is the only
    thing keeping me from buying one.
    
    The Kuwai also has a velocity sensitive keyboard. You can set the
    sensitivity of the keys. You can also set it so that when you hold
    down a key and press harder, modulation will kick in. Pretty handy
    if you're playing a synth lead with one hand whil the other is busy
    playing another keyboard. You can get modulation without using the
    other hand on the wheel or joystick.
    
    Let me know what you think if you try it out.

    
    Decide on piano or organ keyboard. For midi controllers
    with piano feel there are only a few expensive choices.
    There are more choices with organ feel, all cheeper.
    
    Which Ob are you talking about? The Obxx controller
    or matrix 6?
    

re:-2
I tried a Kuwai at E.U. Wurlitzer, and it seemed like the weakest of all the
synths they had there.  The instrument didn't seen to have the robustness.
I can't remember the model number.  If I am in the Nashua area I will stop
in and see what they have.

re:-1
I am looking at the Ob-6.  I called some of the mail distributors listed in
note 529.0 and got pricing for:
   Profound Sound(Very nice over the phone), talked w/Shane
	- Ob-6 list $1595 my price $1095
	- Ob-6r my price $745
	- KX88 $1295
	- DX7 $1525
   East Coast, talked w/Chris
	- Willing to beat any price I got elsewhere on anything

Shane suggested the KX88 w/Ob-6r, but this quickly goes out of my price range.
Chris warned me that the KX88 has a problem when playing many keys, fast.  He
said that the keyboard locks up.  He recommended a Roland MIDI Board; I think
he forgot about my price range here.

If I go with the Ob-6, I'll probably get it thru East Coast.  Does anybody have
any recommendation for/against East Coast?  I wasn't overly impressed with them
over the phone, but feel pretty confident with making a purchase thru them.

Dan

    
    There is some rumor floating around about the
    KX88 'retriggering' problem, but I also heard it from
    Chris at East Coast.( He suggested a Kurzweil 
    midiboard to me instead!). Its difficult to 
    verify.
    
    The Kx;s I've played have no problem except the
    action is a little "slow". The best test may be
    a trill, but its hard to play that quickly. To me
    the Kx88 *promotes* slow passages via its action. 

    A fast "left-right-forfinger-trill" on adjacent and/or apart
    keys might ferret out this "bug" since it might
    be hard to hear with a 'crush' or some other 
    stimulus. I wonder how Chris noticed this.
    
    ron
    

    
    	What's this 'retriggering' problem again?  I've got a KX88
    and have noticed no problems at all.
    
    	As for its reputed sluggishness, I've had no problems here,
    either.  This probably depends on what you are used to.  Mechanical,
    er,... I mean acoustic pianists will probably find the action
    quite fast.
    							- Karl

    I agree with Karl Malik. I'm a reasonably accomplished pianist and
    I've never gotten the KX88 to 'lock up' when playing 'lots of notes'.
    
    Sounds like a salesman gets a bigger commission on other equipment.
    
    I'll agree the KX88 has a problem with very fast repeated single
    notes... other than that I like it very much.
    
    karl moeller

To add my Xperience ...
    
    I talked seriously with East Coast Sound once.  They him-hawed around
    when I started mentioning DX5/7 etc.  When I kept on pressuring them,
    the sales rep said that they "could get Yamaha if I really wanted it",
    which led me to believe that they had to jump thru hoops, and hence,
    were not bona fide Yamaha dealers. 
    
    Also gave me a run-around on Oberheim stuff.  I later found out that
    they were NOT an authorized Oberheim dealer.  For what it's worth ... 

    
8^)

    yes, tale of the sea perhaps...
    
    I think we should *all* call Chris tomorrow
    and quiz (read:grill) him about "what conditions
    are necessary to produce the aledged Kx88 'problem'.
    
    We could work out a schedule....
    
    any interest?
    
    ron_the_harrasser
    

I'd like to thank you all for 'Lending me your experience'.  Since the time I
decided to purchase a machine 'til now I have had a few additional expenses,
hospital visits, unexpected bills and stuff, so I don't have the $1000 or so
dollars to purchase the machine I really want to start with.  But fear not!

I did buy a Casio SK-1 Sampling keyboard at Service Merchandise for $83.97
tax included, on sale.  I wasn't going to be thwarted!!!!

I have since hooked it up to my stereo and sampled some neat sounds off Jan-
Michael Jarre and Fresh Aire CD's.  It's a pretty neat 'toy' that will keep
me amused for now.  I fiqure I'll get so tired of the 'usual' synthesizer
sounds, that I can sample, that when I actually get a synthesizer I'll be more
empowered to create new sounds.

Thanks again,
Dan