Conference napalm::commusic_v1

    Sure, I'll give you an opinion; I have an opinion on everything 8^)!!!
    
    I think the action is quite solid.  Also, as you noticed, the keyboard
    itself is not made by the same folks who made the 250 keyboard.
    I find it to be better than the 250 (which to me feels like a Hammond
    keyboard with lead weights under each key!) but felt it to be more
    responsive in general than the Rhodes.  In terms of the features,
    it combines what I think is the closest to a piano keyboard with
    great (Xk-like 8^) 8^)) features (> 2 different channels, many preset
    setups, etc.).
    
    But, alas, two major problems for me: BIG BIG weight, BIG BIG cost
    (list is about $2200 I think).  Other than that, it's a knockout.
    
    /Andy

I had read about this keyboard controller somewhere and had decided it is
probably the one for me.  So, early this year, I went to LaSalle and asked
to try one out.  They informed me that Kutrzweil had merely contracted out
their name to someone else, that it was a limited edition product and had
been cancelled.

What's the scoop?  Is this the same product?  Is it actually available?


				Mark

    It was a "limited edition" because they didn't know that it would
    sell so well (so they decided to pretend they wanted it limited
    with a gold platen saying so). They are still in production.
    This info is from my friend who wrote the user's manual for the
    new Kurzweil 150 rack-mount.
    
    	- Rick
    

    
    Can he get me a good price on one? They are steep.
    
    It will sell even at steep.
    
    rr

    
    Interesting tho. The last 2 issues of Keyboard have
    had full page add on Midiboard and the 150, so I dont
    think that they are gonna can it. 
    
    The action is very different from a Kur. 250., so I
    wouldnt be surprised about farming out the design. 
    
    If that's the case, tho, WHO designed and/or is_making
    them?
    
    RR
    

    
    More info from Mike Bridgeta, former consultant to Kurzweil
    and now teaching at Berkley (Berkweed?) in Boston:
    
    Midiboard hardware was designed by Tim Reese or Reed or ?
     (I cant remember everything...) and the firmware was
    done by Hal Chamberlain, who now is working at Kurzweil.

    The action is going to be used in the "upright" home "piano"     
    product that has just been announced. It has conductive rubber
    'active' part that does seem to give a little squish when
    the key bottoms. I found it somewhat tiring to play (gee,
    you better practice more, ron) but Mike pointed out that
    when the key bottoms, the rubber bounces just a little, and
    your finger-brain goes into a servo "pushing" to maintain
    control. This uses more energy, 'course.
    The rubber part after a while 'sets' and makes repeatablilty
    more difficult. It does buy you polyphonic pressure info,
    tho, and is 'quick' to respond to fast passages (KX88 seems
    [to me] definitely more sluggish).
    
    I guess fussy piano-types will never be satisfied with anything
    less than midi-ing the real thing.
    
    Ron_who_is_off_to_see_if_the_RD_1000_and_MKB1000_have_same_action.
    

Both LaSalle and Daddy's in Boston are pushing this creature as the ultimate
MIDI board.  It sells for $2K these days, and the KX88 for almost $1800, so
they're price-competitive now.

I tried the Kurzweil 250 and didn't like it.  I hated the Roland MKB1000 (too
light and not responsive enough).  I liked the Korg Sampled Piano quite a
bit, but not sure I'd want to waste money to use it as a controller.

Only KX88 takes breath control input, but a Yamaha MIDI expander for $200
(what a waste of money for redundancy) could convert any other controller.

Anyway, no one has a KX88 in stock, so I STILL have never had a chance to
try one!  MIDIboards are coming back in next week at Daddy's and next month
at LaSalles.  Stocks mature in December!  I hope to buy my MIDI controller,
at long last, around Christmas.  But I'm not going to buy the MIDI board
without trying it first, and ESPECIALLY without having tried a KX88!

Does anyone know how I could get my hands on a KX88 to try one out?


				Mark

    re -1. KX88 hands-on
    
    Tucson is really nice this time of year.

    clever KM[n]. 
    
    Daddy's Nashua had Kx88 a week ago. 
    
    You cant "remember" how a kbd feels. You need all of them in
    the same place using the same midi gear. I had that opportunity
    2 weeks or so ago in LaSalles, all midi-ed to an MKS20:
    
    (Really different strokes here huh folks? My take on actions:)
    
    Kurz: good response (did you tailor the attack adjust slider?)
	  but tiring and heavy after playing a while.
    KX88: medium response, but 'seems' sluggish. Have to smash the keys
     	  to get max velocity (confirmed in KBD mag). 
    Ensonic piano as controller:
    	  Like a small spinet. A bit light. Hmmmm....
    Korg samp. piano:
    	  No way. Too s-l-o-w on fast passages
    MKB1000:
    	  Most like a grand. A bit light (except for the
    	  overall weigh! Hardly portable)

    And on another day:
        Roland 5600 'home' piano:
    	  Excellent. Try this. Good compromise. Medium weight
    	and quick. Theres a cheeper model/without the amps/
    	and speakers thats about $1500. This may be the steal
    	of the year(decade?) You get an MKS20 without the 
    	eq and voice storage(so?)  AND a nice feeeling kbd all
    	for something like $1500 (wurlitzer worchester)
    	Amazing. If only I didnt already buy an MKS20....
    
    I think alot depends on your style. Mine involves fast passages.
    Still looking for that *certain* controller. Kawai is coming out
    with one next month or so. Piano action. Here's hopin. Im waitin...

    ron

    RE: .9
    
    What's the "home" piano you mentioned. A friend of mine has been
    looking, unsuccesfully, for a keyboard with a piano type action
    that he likes. Is the Roland fairly portable, or is it built into
    a home style piano case? How many keys?
    
    What he's really looking for is a medium size (5 octave?), portable
    controller for around $1000. If it was a synth with good electric
    piano sounds that would be a big bonus. He's looked at the Ensoniq
    and Korg sampled pianos, but didn't think the feel was quick enough
    for his style of playing. KX88 is just too big to haul around. The
    pro Roland sampled pianos are too much $s.
    
    

    Re: .10
    
    I seem to remember Roland introducing a cut down version of the
    MKB-1000 which had weighted wooden keys, but less of them (somewhere
    around 61 versus 88 for the MKB-1000).  Was I dreaming this or can
    someone else confirm??
    
    		Derek

    Re: 11
    
    	Roland puts out both the MKB-300 and the MKB-200.  The 300 is
    a 76 key, non weighted version of the 1000.  The 200 is the newer
    model, having 61 keys (five octaves) and is also non-weighted. 
    Don't know much more about either one.
    
    	Roland also has a number of sysnthesized pianos that would serve
    as controllers - All the HP100/300/400 or HP350/450's would be
    tolerable if used in conjunction with a MIDI junction box (to split
    off to MIDI channels).  Also, a less "homey" looking model called
    the EP-50 has come out more recently and is designed to be a MIDI
    controller that just happens to put out some piano and harpsichord
    sounds as well.  You can control MIDI channels via some control
    buttons and the actual keys.  Could be a pain in some cases.  None
    of these have pitch bend, though, to my recollection.
    
    	Dan

	Thats my situation too. I just want a good piano
    action. Midi controllers dont do enough (yet) to 
    control more than a teensy midi network. I also 
    think in the future that sound generators will "split"
    kbd ranges of notes and issue them to certain voices.
    The Fb01, and most samplers already do this....
        
    The next time I'm at Wurlitzers I'll get the facts,but    
    the 'home' model was the 5600, and thats ~3K. There
    was another model, more plastic finish, only 2 speakers
    in the top, and the price I believe was ~1.5K.
    The internals appear to be akin to MKS20! THat plus a 
    quick keyboard piano action is to me a real deal. The
    drawback is that the 'cabinet' is one piece, legs and
    all (plastic tho) and youd have to do some surgery to
    turn it into a controller.

    Kawai should next month or so have out its midi controller...
    I'm waiting and hoping.

    ron
    

    re -1 cheapo 'MKS20' with keys.."minor surgery to turn in into a
    MIDI controller"
    
    Yes, like adding LFO and pitchbend wheels, the ability to send MIDI
    patch changes to other MIDI modules....
    
    NFW.
    
    karl

    
    Hm, ok. maybe it's 'major' surgery if you dont also
    have a synth with them.
    (I remember now, you dont play live, right?)
    The system I'm growing needs something like an Axxess
    Midi Mapper between the kbds and the voices, because
    no midi controller sends out enough concurrent program
    changes, system exclusive (for FB01, and other?), and
    defines splits or zones on the kbds (one piano, one synth)
    at the change of one button or footswitch (you could
    redefine your setup n times during a song...great!)
    
    So, youre right. Its not a controller with memory. But
    see? I dont want to pay for that. I just want a friendly
    super piano action...
    
    NO MATTER. The model 2000: Mks-20 sound generation and
    reasonable (subjective) piano action is a buy.
    
    rr
    

Spent some time at Wurlitzer in Framingham last night (like, four hours!) and 
was blown away by the Roland MKS20 digital piano rack-mount!  Still hate the 
MKB1000, and wasn't as impressed by the Korg Digital Piano as before, but 
tried a Kawai and was reasonably impressed.  Since Kawai is supposed to be 
coming out with a keyboard controller in January that will cost around $1400, 
I'm going to hold off until then.  I didn't like the KX88, and I've heard the 
MIDIboard isn't THAT much different from the Kutrzweil 250.  Since Kawai has a 
long history of making fine PIANO products, I trust them to get it right!

Looks like I'll be trying out the Kawai in January, hopefully buying it if 
it's any good, then purchasing the MKS20 (outrageously expensive at $1700!).  
The only problem with the MKS20 is the harpsichord, but I can get a good 
version of that when I make my third-priority purchase, the TX7 (or FB01 or 
TX816 or some follow-on product).  Hopefully the Kawai will accept BC-1 input.


				Mark

    Well, thats the MKS20. But then your in the same problem
    space as some of us: What keyboard feels right? And also
    I have yet to see a piano action controller that doesnt
    weigh a ton...
    There IS a thinness on a simple triad. Playing music with
    *movement* pulls your ear/brain away from noticing it.
    Chorus (very slow very shallow) helps a bit, but reverb is
    an absolute plus.
    
    re -2 : Where did you hear the January Kawai 'birthdate'???

    		Are you in mass? we have to find a dealer
    		that will handle the new kbd, and bug him
    		to get it asap. ( "New_sales_tax" Hampshire
    		would be better...)
	heres hoping...    
    
	ron
    

    re 'thinness' of the MKS20.. true. Also that a bit of chorus (depth
    8, speed 1) helps. What I'm working on is getting a sustain pedal
    on my KX88 to switch between patches on my MIDIverb.. nopedal= normal
    reverb, like #29. Pedal down= #39 or so. I realize that one controller
    can't do two functions, i.e. sustain the MKS-20  AND switch the
    reverb on another MIDI channel.. but maybe two pedals CAN. Or maybe
    I'll take the insides out and mount 2 sensors in one pedal.
    
    sigh.
    
    kmII

    
    
    But Karl I think you can set up a pedal on the KX to have 2 functions.
    By using the parameter functions 3E, 3F. I'me almost sure that these
    can be set up to send one message when switched on and another when
    switched of eg midi start/stop messages.
    
    					Paul.
    
    
    		

    
    Yes but he needs program change messages, not start/stop.
    Which you probably could do, but I bet his midiverb will
    need to be on its own channel. Not sure kx can do.
    
    Axxess midi mapper will take any incomming info and turn
    it into any other midi packet. 
    Pedal down -> program change[n] on channel[x]   
    Pedal up -> program change[m] on channel[x]

    There. Everyone needs one. They just dont know it yet.
    
    ron
           

    OH, and check out the "KX88_and_MKS20_arent_totally_compatible"
    (paraphrased) article in the latest Keyboard mag.
    
    Gee, the Mapper will fix that too....
    
    rr

    
    The KX88 will allow you to assign any message to any controller.
    Whilst most of the midi messages are based around the sysex control
    format of the DX7/TX7, there are 2 3e and 3f which are totally user
    programmable. That is you could insert into them the Program change
    message for the midi-verb no matter what channel. This I am sure
    of. What I am not sure of is whether the peddle config is capable
    of handling different messages on switch on/of but I think this
    is true also. 
    
    				Paul.

    "Its behind you"???????
    
    I know the kbd info goes out on one channel, or two, if 
    split. But do controller messages go out on another channel?
    
    If so thats nice. But what we have here is a need for the
    message to go out on 2 channels simultaneously:
    
    Sustain_pedal_on -> MKS20 on channel[n]
    Program_change[x]-> midiverb on channel[m]
    
    Because you dont want the program change to go to the MKS-20.
    KX88 can do????? (gee, I might reconsider it...)

    ron
        

    The keyboard article refers to the *DX7*'s penchant for using only
    part of the MIDI dynamic range.  I.e., no how hard you bash it,
    it will only send a velocity of 118 or less, not 127 or less as
    MIDI allows.  It apparently also sets a floor.  The article did
    not say if the KX88 does this too.
    
    len.
    

    Good stuff !
    
    Even IF I could get one pedal controller to do two functions, i.e.
    sustain the MKS-20 AND issue a prog.change command to the MIDIverb,
    it's a shame to 'waste' one of the KX88's two independent MIDI channels
    to perform this function. If I never had another module besides
    the MKS-20... except the E-Mu EMAX is getting closer.. not to mention
    a couple of FB01's.
    
    Thanks for the input so far. Re KX88 velocity.. if anyone can get
    127 vel. out of it, I can.
    
    best. karl

    OOps. Lens right. DX7 and MKS20. Have to check about Kx88...
    The DX has nicely velocity sensitive internal voices and
    if you bang harder [forgive me] to get the MKS to 'respond'
    the DX voice now is "over-sensitive".
    
        The point is: Be aware that a controller and a voice
    		  may not have the same 'transfer curves'
    		  for velocity response.
    
	AN EVEN WORSE SITUATION IF YOU ARE CONTROLLING 2
        OR MORE DIFFERENT VOICE  UNITS WITH THE SAME
        CONTROLLER/SYNTH

    Some controllers and synths have a choice of curves,
    or other vel. control.    Why dont they all????
    
    Kbd mag Q and A a few issues back confirms that the
    KX88 'can' produce vel. levesl of 127, but Yamaha
    says you have to strike it pretty hard, or something
    to that effect. I doubt it suits everyones technique.

    ron_hoping_for_Kawai_breakthru_otherwise_Ill_make_my_own
    

    Yeah, I think it's true in general that you have to wallop the dickens
    out of keyboards to get 127 out of them.  To get max velocity out
    of my JX I have to hit it so hard that it bounces on the USS stand.
    Pianos at least have a certain amount of intrinsic mass, but portable
    keyboards were not meant to be played that hard.
    
    Also, the "curves" that Ron mentions are usually in the sound modules
    rather than the keyboard.  I.e., you can control how the sound module
    interprets the velocity data, but not how the keyboard maps physical
    effort to velocity.
    
    len.
    

    re -1:
    
    Thats something I noticed too about the JX, that the Aftertouch 
    sensitivity of the keyboard itself is low.  An electric guitar
    requires less pressure to bend strings for instance.  
    
    Fredric
    

    That seems to be inherent in aftertouch - how "deep" do you want
    the keys to be able to go?  Any very short throw pressure sensor
    is going to have a very steep transfer function for it to provide
    a reasonable range of output values.
    
    One night I got thinking about the relationship between MIDI velocity
    and aftertouch, and basically velocity encodes a small force acting
    over a large distance, and aftertouch a large force acting over
    a small distance.  If the key's resisting force were continuous,
    velocity and aftertouch would form a continuum.  These two parameters
    are distinct so as to get the best of both worlds - velocity in
    the range where the force is too small to be expressively useful,
    and pressure where the distance (and hence velocity) is too small
    to be useful.
    
    Hey, it's Friday, ya know?
    
    len.
    

    re -1  Thanksgiving is coming!
    Yes, velocity and aftertouch are distinct.  One is determined by
    the speed of changing displacement, ie: slowly pushing the key
    has little effect.  Aftertouch is supposed to be pressure, not
    necessarily displacement sensitive.  The harder you push, the higher
    the value.  
    
    I just meant in my previous note that you have to push pretty hard
    before you get any effect from the aftertouch param, even with the
    sensitivity control all the way up.  And to get maximum effect,
    you probably have to break something.  The problem is that physically,
    aftertouch is at the bottom of the stroke, so they probably made
    it stiff to prevent one action from causing the other unintentionally.
         
    I kind of wish they would have made both parameters much more 
    physically sensitive as well as dynamic, so that the software
    sensitivity controls would be able to better taylor the keyboard 
    to the player. 
    

    Here here. Unanimous Certo, ami.
    
    But *Len*....the, lets call them "velocity transfer curves",
    need NOT be restricted to the voice. In the system where
    one has a controller and modules, theres is no reason (except
    cost?) that parameters cant be tweeked either at the source
    (kbd) or destination, or both. 
    
    Where the kbd is 'matched' to the voice unit (synth) there is
    still a need for tailoring parameters to the players technique
    or whim.
    
    AND if youre spending B_F_monetary_units on a 'controller' that
    doesnt make a peep, all the more reason for some CONTROL so you
    can match it to your technique AND/OR your voice units.
    
    I find most 'pressure' (aftertouch) unusable cause it requires
    so much 'push' even to get a little effect.

    give me a stratocaster arm epoxied to a pot anyday. (youll see it
    at the jam...)
    
    rr
    

    
    Info on latest Kawai midi controller:
    
    Note 579.1
    
    only a few more weeks!
    
    ron
    

    re. 33 - right, my man, I was saying what's mostly done not the
    way it oughta be.  I would like the controller to let me specify
    the force to midi parameter transfer function, and the sound modules
    to let me specify the response function.  Mostly today I only get
    to do the latter, and I can't control the shape (well, I get three
    shapes on the JX-10 for velocity, but only one for aftertouch) as
    well as the amount of effect.
    
    I know this subject comes up periodically, but why don't we go off
    and design a synth the way it oughta be done, huh?
    
    len.
    

    no funding.
    
    I'm game, but spare time is filled.
    
    all of the above.